The Gist Podcast: Daniel Brook & Brandy Schillace – The Sex Expert Who Scared Hitler

Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Guests: Daniel Brook, Brandy Schillace
Main Theme:
An exploration of the life, impact, and persecution of Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld—a pioneering sexologist, LGBTQ+ rights advocate, and target of Nazi repression. The episode discusses Hirschfeld’s scientific, social, and political legacy, how his work intersected with Weimar Germany’s politics, and the manipulation of sexuality for political ends.

Episode Overview

Mike Pesca interviews authors Daniel Brook (“The Einstein of Sex: Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld, the Visionary of Weimar Berlin”) and Brandy Schillace (“The Intermediaries”) about the influential and often overlooked Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld. The conversation journeys through Weimar Berlin’s queerness, the Weimar backlash, and the Nazi transformation of sexuality into an ideological wedge. The episode highlights how culture wars over gender and sexuality are far from new, but part of a recurring cycle.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Magnus Hirschfeld?

[11:52] Daniel Brook:

• Begins Hirschfeld’s story with the infamous 1933 Nazi book burning, where much of the footage actually shows Hirschfeld’s works destroyed.
• Hirschfeld was a scientist, physician, activist, and founder of the Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin (1919–1933), which was “surgical clinic, psychological clinic, think tank, essentially queer community center in the heart of Berlin.”
• "We were never told whose books were being burned. ...Sure, you can tell ten-year-olds about mass murder, but don't tell them about queerness. That might really affect their development." [12:54]

[13:15] Brandy Schillace:

• Connects Hirschfeld to 19th-century advocate Karl Ulrichs, “kind of one of the first, I suppose, coming out stories,” and discusses the suicidal letter from Hirschfeld’s patient that inspires his activism.
• Emphasizes that “hatred doesn’t just spring fully formed in the 1930s. ...It's a snowball rolling downhill.”

2. Suppression and Cycles of Rediscovery

[14:58] Daniel Brook:

• Ulrichs was suppressed before Hirschfeld, who then republished Ulrichs’s work; Hirschfeld was suppressed by the Nazis; Kinsey later uses Hirschfeld’s research without credit.
• Scientific progress and LGBTQ+ rights face repetitive cycles of advancement followed by backlash or erasure.

3. The Reality of Weimar Berlin’s “Libertine” Reputation

[16:34] Daniel Brook:

• Weimar’s sexual liberalism was mostly metropolitan (Berlin, Cologne).
• The far-right weaponized social instability into anti-Jewish and anti-queer movements:
  • “...the literal Nazi slogan, Rasen Kampf statt Klassenkampf, race war instead of class war.”

[17:27] Brandy Schillace:

• The anti-queer backlash stemmed partly from misogyny and anxieties about changing gender roles—from industrialization and women's increased agency to anti-Semitic and anti-feminine rhetoric.
• “...They said, Jewish men are too feminine. See, it's all this. And they're going to turn people gay and they're going to steal our boys.”

4. Political Dynamics and Use of Sexuality as a Weapon

[19:09] Mike Pesca:

• Asks how various German political factions responded to Hirschfeld.

[19:29] Daniel Brook:

• The Social Democratic Party and others were supportive, while the Catholic Center Party and right-wing groups played both sides, often cynically using gender issues to sway support.

[20:38] Brandy Schillace:

• The press was instrumental in inflaming scandals, shaping public consciousness, and leveraging homosexuality as a means of political attack.

[22:27] Daniel Brook:

• During the Eulenberg-Moltke "scandal", Hirschfeld testified that “...you can be gay or straight and celibate and not act on it,” undermining the narrow legalist framing.
• Later, a Nazi gay sex scandal involving Ernst Röhm failed to hurt the Nazis, indicating “Hirschfeld has made Germany so tolerant of queerness that this, this gay scandal ... has almost no effect.” [23:34]

5. Instrumentalization of Sexuality in Nazi and Pre-Nazi Germany

[23:40] Brandy Schillace:

• Scandals were never really about sex, but power: “...it was about people not liking certain people in political power. ...So it's really a tool of manipulation more than it was about sex.”
• Surgeons at Hirschfeld’s institute treated Nazi officials for same-sex desires, yet the regime used public homophobia as a weapon.

[25:28] Mike Pesca & Guests:

• Raises the question of whether rumors about Hitler’s sexuality had any basis; Schillace notes documentation is inconclusive, but Nazi circles gave Hitler “girly nicknames” and saw him as odd.

[26:50] Daniel Brook:

• “The Nazis are incredibly exercised about gender nonconformity ideologically ... Overall, they're sort of less concerned about who's sleeping with who. And to the extent they are, it's instrumental.”

[27:21] Brandy Schillace:

• “They wanted the appearance of masculinity, partly because they had equated masculinity with strength on the world stage.”
• Even within early gay circles, masculinity was fetishized, sometimes with misogynist overtones.
• “The word Übermensch comes about at this time period for those very reasons.”

[28:55] Daniel Brook:

• Once Himmler gains power, Nazis’ homophobia becomes fanatical—persecuting homosexuals (pink triangles, camps).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Daniel Brook on Book Burning [11:52]:

  “They're Hirschfeld's books, literally books he wrote. And the rest of them are books he collected and housed at his Institute for Sexual Science, which was surgical clinic, psychological clinic, think tank, essentially queer community center in the heart of Berlin from 1919 to 1933 until the Nazis closed it down.”

• Brandy Schillace on the Roots of Hate [14:58]:

  “Hatred doesn’t just spring fully formed in the 1930s. ...It's a snowball rolling downhill.”

• Brandy Schillace on Political Weaponization [23:40]:

  “It wasn't really about the homosexuality, but people thought if we position it that way, we can attack and the general public will go, oh, yeah, that's weird. You know, that's fringe... So it's really a tool of manipulation more than it was about sex.”

• Daniel Brook on Backlash Cycles [14:58 & 28:55]:

  "Again and again there's this backlash that's gonna try to stop and suppress [progress]." “None of this should be taken to … suggest at all that once the Nazis took power, they weren't fanatically homophobic, were locking up homosexuals, making them wear pink triangles, putting them in camps. A lot of that is attributable to Himmler ... ”

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 11:14 | Pesca introduces Daniel Brook and Brandy Schillace | | 11:52 | Brook describes the book burning and what was really burned | | 13:07 | Schillace discusses 19th-century precursors & Hirschfeld's mandate | | 14:58 | Suppression and historical erasure (Ulrichs, Hirschfeld, Kinsey) | | 16:34 | Weimar Berlin: reality vs. myth; rise of anti-minority politics | | 17:27 | Gender politics, misogyny, and the roots of anti-queer rhetoric | | 19:09 | Political parties’ relationship to Hirschfeld | | 20:38 | Media’s role in stoking sexual scandals | | 22:27 | Hirschfeld’s intervention in the Eulenberg trial, Nazi sex scandals | | 23:40 | Instrumental use of sexuality charges; Nazi leaders & hypocrisy | | 26:50 | Nazis and gender conformity | | 28:55 | Himmler’s role in turning Nazi policy brutally homophobic | | 29:32 | Episode wrap-up: Book plugs, thanks from both guests |

Tone & Style

• The episode blends scholarly insight, dark irony, and urgency.
• Speakers remain accessible, often translating history to present anxieties about hate and political manipulation.
• Pesca’s tone is thoughtful, sometimes incredulous, pushing guests with follow-ups on complexity and contemporary parallels.

Conclusion

The episode situates Magnus Hirschfeld at the forefront of sexual science and LGBTQ+ rights during the turbulent Weimar era, connects his persecution to cycles of suppression, and draws chilling parallels between historical and contemporary uses of identity as a political tool. Brook and Schillace emphasize that advances made are never permanent and that understanding Hirschfeld's life helps us "recognize the snowball of hate" gaining speed in our own times.

Notable Books Mentioned:

• The Einstein of Sex: Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld, The Visionary of Weimar Berlin by Daniel Brook
• The Intermediaries by Brandy Schillace

This summary was crafted for listeners seeking insight into the episode’s substance without commercial detours. It highlights the deep roots and persistent manipulation of gender and sexuality in politics, the fragility of progress, and Magnus Hirschfeld’s enduring legacy.