David Green (8:19)

Hey y'.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (8:20)

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David Green (8:20)

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Mike Pesca (8:24)

Let's do it. You gotta name as many Wayfair furniture and decor categories as you can. Ready? Go.

David Green (8:31)

Sofas, bar stools, beds, ottomans, outdoor seating, bookshelves, kitchen tables, garden sheds, mid century modern lamps.

Mike Pesca (8:38)

Time. Nice. You got nine out of a lot. Not too bad. Keep practicing by visiting Wayfair.com where you can shop every style for every home. Wayfair.

Progressive Insurance Advertiser (8:47)

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Mike Pesca (8:52)

David Green is a lot of things. He's a great journalist. He's enthusiastic, he's mellifluous, he's. I've always known him to be very informed. But obsessed. Is David Green obsessed? Yes, if the titles of podcasts are to be believed, and I think they are, because that one girl does want her daddy to call her. David Green is Obsessed. That is the name of his new podcast where he talks to other obsessives who you might know from different walks of life. The opera singer who's obsessed with restrooms. The guy who gives pizza tours. Okay, he's obsessed with pizzas. The actor who, you know, who's obsessed with Bozo the Clown. And David excavates their obsessions and actually finds connection. David, welcome to the.

David Green (9:37)

Thank you. It's good to see you, Mike. I used to be obsessed with you as my office mate. We were. We sat right near each other in an office in New York. I don't know if you reminisce about those days ever, but it's nice to be with you again.

Mike Pesca (9:49)

That was a time of a murderer's row. Or it was. Maybe you, me, Folk and Flick, Smith, Crow, witch. Each each more annoying to David Green, who was the least loud on the row and trying to.

David Green (10:00)

Was I the least loud? I really appreciate that. I don't know if that's true, but Maybe that's scary. If I was the least loud, that's frightening.

Mike Pesca (10:07)

So what I like about the show and what I glean you like about Obsessed is that, yes, you learn about the people's obsession, but you really do learn about the people. So especially if it's someone like David Marquette, if you asked him about acting, you'd probably get one sort of interview. But when you ask him about Bozo the Clown, you unlock something.

David Green (10:25)

Yeah, no, I. Obsession is really. Is really, to me, a window into the human soul. And it's. It's like a. You know, it's just gets a conversation going, and it gets you thinking about what your obsessions, what your interests, what your addictions, whatever you want to call it, say about you. So I love these interviews because I feel like they're journeys. You know, I think starting with an obsession is something that's very relatable because we. It gives us a chance to all think about what the hell we can't let go of. But then it just, you know, gets a person asking questions about themselves. What does this obsession say about me? David Arquette. It was really fun. You know, he literally is obsessed with Bozo the Clown to a point where he bought the IP to the original Bozo the Clown. But the conversation led to, you know, things in his own life. You know, substance abuse and alcohol addiction and how Bozo lets him be kind of crazy in a way that he used to feel when he was drunk, but now he can do it in a much safer environment and kind of be crazy and not worry about stuff. So, yeah, I love you, and I love interviewing people, and this is just a way to get into the human soul in a different sort of way.

Mike Pesca (11:42)

See, that's what I think half the appeal of the Insane Clown Posse is. These people were mostly drunk or drinking Four Loko. They segued into the icp and, you know, clownishness actually serves a lot of that purpose. But the one specific question I had about Bozo and the quote, ip, is there a. The ip, from what I understood about Bozo there, it was all over the place. And there are many bozos, and each town had the Bozo. Have they ever consolidated what really is the intellectual property of Bozo?

David Green (12:12)

I mean, I encourage you to have David Arquette on your show who can do a deep dive with you. There is actually IP that David worked very hard and spent money to procure. Yeah. Now, whether that IP was abused and whether there were communities that were using Bozo the Clown illegally, and David could now take Them to court if he wanted to. I'm not sure. But, yes, it is a real thing that I had to have him explain to me that he has. He now owns the rights to Bozo, which is. Which is kind of funny.

Mike Pesca (12:40)

I think you should start aggressively enforcing it. Like Walt Disney with daycare centers when they drew a picture of Goofy or Mickey on the wall.

David Green (12:47)

Yeah. The Disney arrived.

Mike Pesca (12:49)

Yeah. They'd come down hard of David Arquette knocking on the door saying, you can't use the red hair at that particular angle. You're treading on our intellectual property.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (13:00)

Exactly.

Mike Pesca (13:01)

So now with. You're also a little. Confess a little bit about yourself, your obsessions. But in the beginning of the opera singer Teddy, who is into public restrooms or wants to be more into public restrooms, but it's hard to get into public restrooms in New York, you admitted a lot about your restroom habits while a White House reporter. And you would go to the Hay Adams Hotel to use the restroom because why I would.

David Green (13:27)

I mean, come on, Mike. I mean, that White House briefing room. God bless. But at the time when I was covering the White House, and this is during the Bush years, I don't know. I feel like there are two types of people in the world. People can go into a public restroom and just use a public restroom and walk out and be fine and go about their day. And then there are people who. It's like, you're in the bathroom. Are people listening? Do they think I'm taking too long? Like, when I come out, are they going to give you a look of like, why were you in there for 15 minutes? Like, it's just stuff that you just don't even want to contemplate. I wanted privacy. I did not want to walk out and, like, be stared at by my 20 colleagues who I would then be sitting in the White House briefing room with on television sometimes, like, having just used the restroom. So I wanted privacy. I would leave. I would walk across the street. I would go to the. Hey, Adams. It was a bathroom with, like, seven stalls. And I could just, you know, live my life the way I wanted to live my life with no judgment.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (14:22)

And then.

Mike Pesca (14:23)

Right.

David Green (14:23)

And, you know, and then come back. But that. That's where, you know, Teddy, who got into public restrooms.

Mike Pesca (14:29)

She.

David Green (14:29)

She. In the beginning, it was sort of funny. I mean, she was obsessed with the idea of, you know, the puzzle. Like, if you're walking out on the streets and I don't know about you, like, during COVID I would take these long walks and the Biggest challenge was actually, where are you use the restroom. And she, you know, it was almost funny in the beginning, like, let me show everyone a map of where there are public restrooms that you can use. But then it became like a matter of human rights. I mean, helping people who are unhoused and helping people who don't have access to restrooms and, you know, pointing out that New York City is a real problem in terms of, you know, per capita public restrooms. And so it went from something funny and something viral to, you know, a real serious advocacy thing for her, which was kind of cool to learn about.

Mike Pesca (15:14)

Yeah. Now I can understand. But back to you and your bathroom habits. I can understand trying to divert you.

David Green (15:19)

There, but yes, back to me. Yes, yes.

Mike Pesca (15:22)

Not wanting to get the stink eye from Terry Moran or Tom Brokaw upon emerging from the bathroom. Maybe literally, but what. I think you started the episode by talking about your perhaps small bladder. And so did Teddy. I think there's a huge implication, as I'm hearing it, but you wouldn't admit it because you are a genteel person, that a lot of your concern was kaka the duty rather than the pp. Am I right about that? You could admit it.

David Green (15:51)

In short, yes, Yes. I mean, 100%. But. But I think it's. It's. I think it's both. I mean, I'll be on road trips with my wife and I will have to, like, you know, every 45 minutes, pull over. So there is that. Having access to public restrooms. But yes, it was number two that I was more concerned about. Less, like, less stink eye, you know, just.

Mike Pesca (16:08)

Yes.

David Green (16:08)

To keep going down that road. More like a time issue. Like, you were in there for 40 minutes, David, and now you're coming out and I am judging you for taking that long because other people needed to use the restroom. That's really what we're talking about here.

Mike Pesca (16:19)

There is some camaraderie among the White House or really any press corps, but there's a lot of competition and that could be embarrassing. But my analysis is that discussion of bathrooms, it takes place on one level, which is mostly by implication talking about having to pee. I mean, there's a musical called Urinetown that is all about this, the right to pee, whereas the pooh pooh part of it is a little bit pooh poohed, if you will. And I think this is what I'm saying. We as a society are not ready to have the poo poo conversation we're into or where certain percentage of us will have the pee pee conversation. It seems like human rights, but pooh pooh is just a poo too far.

David Green (17:03)

I think you're right. I think you're right. I think there's something you're asking people to take a step that they're not willing to take to go into the poo poo conversation.

Mike Pesca (17:14)

I agree.

David Green (17:14)

And I don't know why. And I think your obsession with this question is exactly the kind of thing that I want to explore on the show and what it says about you. Maybe it means that you're obsessed with like solving problems. Maybe it means that you're obsessed with taking people into places where they don't want to go. I don't know, Mike. What is this say about you? But yes, you are right. You have caught us. I think it's easier to talk about bladders than, than, than number two.

Mike Pesca (17:40)

Yup. And I am actually uncomfortable with that sort of talk in general. Ask anyone in my life. I don't like to quote, go there, but maybe my obsession is making a. An esteemed journalist feel a bit uncomfortable. Through the power of insight.

David Green (17:54)

Yeah, through the power of insight.

Mike Pesca (17:56)

So what you. I have, I heard the one half episode you did where you talked to your producer and you both said your obsession with sports. Now I am, you know, my, my capacity for sports, my fandom of sports. I would say that I am far less than obsessed only because I compare myself even to friends of mine who went to high school who know every Final Four participant since the dawn of time. I would say I'm less than obsessed. I'm definitely a fan, perhaps far short of a fanatic, and I feel a little bad when my teams lose. But since my teams are teams like the jets and Mets, I'm really quite used to it. So on the continuum of sports obsessives, where would you put yourself? I don't.

David Green (18:42)

You know, I think it depends on the definition you bring up. The fact that, you know, your friends can name every Final Four lineup for, you know, since the beginning of time, I feel really insecure because I can't do that. Like I'm a die hard Pittsburgh Steelers fan. But I could not give you the entire starting offensive lineup from like the 79 team and it. And I'm embarrassed to say that. And there are probably some Steelers fans listening who will be like, you're not a real fan. But if I watch them lose a playoff game, I am paralyzed, angry. I become a different person. I become violent. I'm using offensive language at the top of my lungs to a Point where my wife literally says, like, you need to be in a sports bar without children with other people who are either as drunk or as obsessive as you or both, or you're gonna cause harm or embarrass yourself. So it depends how you define fandom. I'll tell you. Like, the. The sports thing was how I got into this whole obsession theme, because I was thinking about writing a second book. And, I mean, you. And I talked about my first book about Russia, years ago. My agent said to me, I think you should write about a book about Pittsburgh sports, like, the Steelers and the history. I was like, sure, I would totally do that. And he said, because you love, like, this performative thing. Like, you're. You're one of the guys. You're, like, drinking beer in the Steelers bar. You're, like a regular guy, even though you're, like, a public radio, Ivy League educated nerd. And I was furious. Like, I was really pissed off because I was like, howard, this is. This is who I am. Like, I am. Like, I. I don't want to be at a poetry reading on a Sunday. Like, I want to be in my Steelers bar holding a mirror light and watching a game and, like, wa. My terrible towel. And he was like, wow, this is really sensitive to you. Like, this is all wrapped up in identity and all this stuff. And that was the first moment where I think I realized, like, you know, a sports obsession. Like, there are nine layers where you can go to kind of understand what it says, because I think it is. It's wrapped up in nostalgia. It's wrapped up in my relationship with my late mother. And sports brings me back to her, even though she's gone and we're watching games together. It's my relationship to Pittsburgh, but it's also, like, there's a lot of identity shit happening that I. That, you know, it's helped me sort of confront that and ask questions about myself right now.

Mike Pesca (21:12)

First of all, you definitely can name almost all of the 79 offense. I mean, it's stalwart. Well, Stallworth, Swan, Franco, Franco, Mike Webster at the center. Okay, so there's some linemen you can't name, but that's. That's mostly hall of Famers, right? If you said the 87 pirates, then I maybe would agree with you.

David Green (21:33)

I mean, if we start getting to, like, the 89 Pirates, we start getting into, like, you know, Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke, I mean, then we start. Then we can actually start talking, and then we can't go to, like, 91. 92, because those are painful years for Pirates fans. And those one year Mets were like, actually good. Right?

Mike Pesca (21:48)

I mean, that's why 7980.

David Green (21:50)

No, no, no. Like 89, 90. When was your World Series?

Mike Pesca (21:55)

Like 80, 86.

David Green (21:56)

Yeah, 86.

Mike Pesca (21:57)

Yeah, they started. They were maybe still trying to hold on. But this is interesting because compared to every other aspect of our lives, this is the obsessive part. But compared to the real obsessives, you could always say to yourself, or the ninth level obsessives, you could always question your own obsession and maybe even give yourself permission structure or an exit ramp. Not to say maybe you're spending a little too much with your football team who don't know you, as opposed to your family, who do. Very fair.

David Green (22:30)

And I actually, I had this moment where Cam Hayward, who, you know is future hall of Famer, Pittsburgh Steelers defensive lineman, I was interviewing him and I, I, I. It was this emotional moment where I was like, Cam, do you, do you realize, like, when you're on the field how much what you're doing means to all of us, like the fans? I mean, I'm out there, I'm waving my towel, I'm sitting there, like, nervous. I'm going through my, like four hours of pre game rituals and everything. And he basically said, like, David, I hate to say this, I'm not even thinking about you at all. Of course, like, Jesus Christ, Cam, like, you're literally breaking my heart. I mean, he appreciates the Pittsburgh Steelers fan base, of course, and he'll say, like, you know, while Renegade is playing, like the defense gets a lot of energy from that, but he's thinking about himself, his team, his teammates, and I'm not on his mind at all, which was a hard thing to do here as a fan, because I think we want to believe that when we're obsessing about them, there's something that we're getting back in return. And I don't know if that's always the case.

Mike Pesca (23:30)

And you, of course, I would assume, interviewed Cam Hayward about his famous Hummel figurine collection for the show.

David Green (23:36)

I did not. No, that was for a different show about his life. And I mean, the Hayward family. But yeah, but I would like to. Yeah, we'll have him on. David Greene's obsessed too.

Mike Pesca (23:45)

I find that there are, just because you mentioned it, really, two kinds of athletes. And one is the athlete, if they weren't playing that sport, would absolutely be in love with that sport and be watching that sport and feel connected. And then there is an athlete and for a couple reasons, it's what they do. And you know what the weird thing is that you would think that the really passionate fan type athlete would have a clear advantage. Not always. I would say in general, if someone is just doing it as a job, there, there is something lacking. And GM's general managers look at that during the draft. I don't think he has the passion for it, but there is a certain level of athlete who defines what he does as his work. And he's very professional about it. But when that work is done, they barely ever pay attention to the other things in the sport. And then there is, you know, Steph Curry is obsessed with a sport, but that sport is golf. There's that, too.

David Green (24:41)

Yeah. No, it's interesting. I know music is different from sports, but I had this really interesting conversation with Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumpkins for our show. And you would think that his obsession was the kind of really high browed, thoughtful music that he does with the Pumpkins. And actually he obsesses about wrestling. And part of the reason is he loves being an entertainer. But his day job is one thing, and when he's sort of off the clock, he needs to be an entertainer in a completely different way. And I think what you're describing to athletes is the same. You might have someone who's a great basketball player, but when they're not on the job, so to speak, I mean, maybe they want to be golfing, maybe they want to be skiing. And I think that says something about us.

Mike Pesca (25:24)

And we'll be back tomorrow with more of David Green. We cut that convo in half because as you heard, that was the obsession part. And now we talk about Green's real obsession. The man bought a newspaper, essentially bought the newspaper he worked at when he was a kid. What a story. That's tomorrow on the Gist. Hey, it's Mike Pesca. I know you're looking for more smart discussions about how politics really works, which is why I want to tell you about the new podcast on Notice, produced by the nonpartisan newsroom. Notice. Each week, journalist and recent just guest Reese Gorman sits down with lawmakers on Capitol Hill for candid conversations. I've heard a bunch. They're very good. It's not just about the headlines but who they are, what makes them tick, what brought them to Washington in the first place. And Reese is very good and very adept at talking to all different kinds of lawmakers. You'll get an insider's view of the people shaping policy in the US From Steve Scalise to Jamie Raskin and many more. Whether you're a political junkie or just want to understand how Congress really works, On Notice brings you closer to the people that matter. So tune in to On Notice. N O T U s available every Monday wherever you get your podcasts are on YouTube and tell them the gist sent you.

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Mike Pesca (27:15)

And now the spiel have you heard we're setting records and not the obscure kinds that no one cares about. Bigger than luge, Bigger than ice dancing. It's life.

Stamps.com Advertiser (27:26)

Well, Americans are living longer than ever. According to new data from the Centers for Disease Control, overall life expectancy in the US rose to 79 years in 2024.

Mike Pesca (27:37)

Do you feel safe? Do you feel prosperous? Do you feel long lived? Might depend if you're a man or a woman. Women expected to live to 81. Men 76 and a half. But even that gap is shrinking. And for the good reason not you know, women are dying sooner. It's that men are living longer and women are living longer too. But the men's life is gaining on the women. Or at least the gap is shrinking. That's a nice way to say it. And it's all nice. It's all good. Other good stuff. A few months ago it was reported that in many to most US cities, crime rates have fallen to levels comparable to 50 years ago. So in other words, most people in most cities are living in a period when they are less likely to ever be murdered or subjected to serious bodily harm. And having escaped murder, they will probably live for longer than they have in the past. Is it making you feel better yet? If it doesn't, part of the reason is perception. Our threat matrix is overwhelmed by the Internet, by constant exposure to rare but vivid events. And it's hard as people not to pay attention to Alex Predding, not to pay attention to a less shocking but no less sad event like Catherine o' Hara dying. But there's another reason specific to this lifespan statistic, this life expectancy statistic, and it's that the statistic itself is widely misunderstood and even when it is understood, it doesn't really map onto what some call our lived experience. I just call life as we experience it. The lifespan of Americans is now the highest it's ever been. So that's great. But life expectancy is an abstraction, not just meaning, oh, I can't expect personally to live that long. Or if I look around to people I know, some have lived shorter lives. Catherine Harrod, dead at 71. Some have lived longer lives. What does it really do for me to know this number in the aggregate? Well, it gives you an indication of where the country is, but not where you are. And people take the news personally. We don't live in the aggregate. Now, here's the complicated part. Neither does the actual country in terms of the people who are actually living in this actual time, except maybe on some actuarial tables. The specific way that life expectancy is calculated is understood by very few civilians. You might think it's something like, well, we look at everyone who died, note their age, and divide the total number of years by the total number of dead. So we could say in 2025, if you died, you were on average 81 or 76. But that's not what we do. That's not what life expectancy is. I would like that number, by the way. You don't have to call it life expectancy. You could call it how long did we live? I think that number should be more widely available. I've even put a great deal of time to try to get that number. So far, I can't. If you know it, let me know. If we knew that number, we'd probably have different conceptions for which years were Americans living the longest versus, say, the French or versus the English. But what life expectancy is is an extrapolation, and it answers the question, if all the conditions of the current year went forward, how long would a person born in this year live? And there's no way to know. That's right. I mean, we might all be hit by bombs. There might be another massive pandemic. There might be some major drugs on the horizon to change things. But even if there aren't some crazy exogenous effects, it is an estimation and a calculation and an assumption about conditions being likely like they are now. The only good thing about it is. Well, I mean, I assume that there's a logic to it. I assume that the experts who've calculated it have arrived at the best method or a good enough method, but with a lot of things like telling us what the normal body temperature is. If you look into a history of how that was estimated, it's based on Belgium people 100 years ago. And you always got to wonder about that. So like I was saying, the good thing about life expectancy statistics is that they have at least been consistent. They haven't overhauled the formula. And the consistency matters because once you change the formula, you can't compare it to the past. So it is true. Compare it to the same consistent way we calculate this. We're living longer and you compare us to the French, we're not doing well as we could now. When lifespan or life expectancy was declining during the COVID period, it made sense to people. A lot of people are dying. But I also remember there were a lot of very pessimistic and dire statements about this. And I put out a tweet saying, you know, everyone's quite upset, but in a few months after Covid's over or in a year, there's going to be a big rebound. And no one who is analyzing this will say the most important thing. It's because life expectancy is calculated with the assumption that conditions in the current year will obtain. And of course, Covid went away, those conditions didn't obtain, and voila, our life expectancy got longer. Also, we're doing less heroin and opioids and dying of that less. Europe's dying less to the world is dying less because of COVID Except, you know, those sections of the world which have wars going on right now. But the United States at 79 in aggregate, still not as long lived as many European countries. But then again, to be fair, in this year we have the acquisition of Greenland to stress over. Maybe the Europeans are going to stress over it more. Maybe that will show up in their alistatic load and that will cause some heart disease. So then we'll catch up on Europe and then the gap will be shrinking for the bad reason. But since we're Americans, it'll seem like it's for the good reason. Also, maybe if we do want to catch up with Europe, we should, I don't know, have more access to health care and fewer opioid deaths everywhere except Scotland. Also, no murder by gun. That's pretty good for Europe. And lower auto fatalities because of smaller cars and they actually use seatbelts more. So like I said, this is good news, but it's also a bit of a challenge. I don't know what we're going to do with those Chinese kids driving around in vans, taking math tests that I was talking about, but with the Europeans they are insights, but we could catch up to them if we just put down the guns, the sandwiches and the syringes. And if those conditions obtain hello, life expectancy. You could expect a life with a much longer expectancy. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the Gist. Kathleen Sykes does the Gist list. Jeff Craig Craig works on our video content. Michelle Pesca is the CEO of Peach Fish Productions. If you know someone who wants to be a booker, maybe you heard that Leah wasn't mentioned in the credits. No, she has moved on. But if you can book for the Gist, get in touch with us at the gist@mike pesca.com Improve and thanks for listening.

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