Derrick Palmer: "We Used Amazon's Own Tactics Against Them"

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Gist – “Derrick Palmer: 'We Used Amazon's Own Tactics Against Them'” (June 9, 2026)

---

Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode of The Gist, host Mike Pesca sits down with Derrick Palmer, co-founder of the Amazon Labor Union and author of "Handbook for the Revolution: Building a More Perfect Union for the 21st Century." The conversation centers on Palmer’s journey from warehouse worker to union organizer, the unique strategies employed by his team to unionize Amazon’s Staten Island facility, and the broader implications for organizing labor at giant corporations. The episode offers actionable insights into modern labor organizing and underscores the centrality of worker-led, grassroots movements.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Derrick Palmer’s Background and Path to Amazon

• Early Employment: Palmer shares he has been an “essential worker” long before the term was widely used, holding roles in TJ Maxx, Williams Sonoma, Shoprite, and other warehouses ([06:49]).
• Joining Amazon: Started in 2015, initially through his mother's recommendation.

  “I actually found out about Amazon through my mom... she’s the one who made all this happen.” – Palmer [07:19]

• First Experiences with Unions: No meaningful prior experience with unions, even though he worked at places where unions existed ([07:46]).

Conditions Leading to Organizing

• Worker Treatment: Notion to unionize grew from frustration over poor working conditions: lack of sick time, hazardous cleanliness, inadequate facilities.

  “You leave work and you have like black, black snot in your nose… as far as that goes. Even like the microwaves and the refrigerators, sometimes there’s, like, roaches... I found a lot of them there.” – Palmer [09:22]

• Long Hours, No Overtime Unless Over 40 Hours: Staff commonly put in 10-12 hour shifts, endured “very bad” working conditions ([10:01]).

Early Organizing & Partnership with Chris Smalls

• Meeting Chris Smalls: Met at Amazon in 2019, quickly bonded as neighbors with similar backgrounds ([11:25]).
• Demographics and Management: Majority of workforce was people of color; however, management was less diverse until media scrutiny prompted a shift ([12:16], [12:34]).

  “I honestly think... article came out... kind of motivated them to get more [black and brown leaders] to make themselves look good.” – Palmer [12:34]

Building a Strategy: Learning from Others & Innovating

• Bessemer, Alabama Fact-Finding Mission: Palmer and Smalls proactively traveled to learn from the unsuccessful Bessemer union drive, then adapted their strategy.

  “That was our homework assignment... we learned a lot from that campaign.” – Palmer [13:39]

• Grassroots Approach: Opted against affiliating with an established union, favoring a worker-to-worker, independent organizing style ([14:21]).
• Chris’s Firing: Smalls was fired for walkout organizing, which clarified for Palmer that direct action was needed ([15:14]).

Outmaneuvering Amazon: Using Company Tactics

• Surprise Walkout: The initial walkout was meant to draw attention to workplace safety, but triggered a harsh corporate response and national recognition ([16:22]).
• Turning Anti-Union Meetings to Their Favor: Amazon’s mandatory captive audience meetings became opportunities.

  “We used that against them... we gained more attention by having these captive audience meetings... So we were in and out the building and consistent throughout the... campaign.” – Palmer [17:46]-[19:29]

• Consistency and Visibility: The core team remained deeply engaged, sometimes sleeping outside the warehouse to connect with both shifts.

Why the Staten Island Union Succeeded

• Leadership in Every Department: Key difference was having organizers embedded “in all departments, or at least most departments…that core leader" ([20:10]).
• In-Person Signatures: “Our signatures were in person,” which bolstered commitment and authenticity.
• Overcoming Fear: Addressed worker hesitations head-on, used personal credibility.
• Comparison with Bessemer: In contrast, Bessemer’s organizers were fewer and relied on online signatures, leading to less credible organizing and easier company pushback ([20:10]-[21:45]).

The Broader Labor Organizing Takeaways

• Worker-Led Organizing: Amazon Labor Union’s hyper-local, worker-led, grassroots style succeeded where traditional outside models often failed.
• Intimacy and Trust: Success was built on trust, visibility, and shared experience among coworkers ([17:50]).
• Persistence: The campaign took over a year of constant presence and engagement.
• Understanding Corporate Opposition: Jujutsu-like use of anti-union meetings and open confrontation with management propaganda.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On management’s sudden interest in diversity:

  "I honestly think it's solely due to the article that was put out... Ever since that article came out, it kind of motivated them to get more [black and brown managers]." – Palmer [12:34]

• On using Amazon’s own tactics:

  "They had captive audience meetings... But it didn't work because... we had organizers speaking out at those meetings. Instantly we gained more attention. We used that against them." – Palmer [17:46]

• On grassroot organizing:

  "We didn't want to get under a traditional union... They may have, you know, gave us the wrong insight because we have the most insight." – Palmer [14:21]

• On the challenge of organizing:

  "That's one hurdle: people that are scared... but ultimately... that was the influence that Amazon couldn't counterattack." – Palmer [17:50]

• Host’s summary on the campaign’s consistency:

  "We were in and out the building and consistent throughout the entire duration of the campaign." – Palmer [19:12]

---

Important Timestamps

• [05:47] – Start of Derrick Palmer interview
• [06:49] – Palmer’s job history before Amazon
• [08:08] – How union idea began at Amazon
• [09:22] – Describing poor working conditions in detail
• [11:25] – Meeting Chris Smalls and forming their partnership
• [13:39] – Learning from Bessemer, Alabama’s campaign
• [14:21] – Decision to remain grassroots and worker-led
• [15:14] – Chris Smalls’ firing and its impact
• [16:22] – Evolution from walkouts to union campaign
• [17:46] – Using captive audience meetings against Amazon
• [20:10] – Contrast between Staten Island and Bessemer campaigns; secrets of success

---

Tone & Style

Pesca maintains a blend of sharp, informed skepticism and genuine curiosity, encouraging Palmer to explore personal and strategic details. Palmer’s tone is earnest, direct, and passionate, providing first-person insights into both the day-to-day and larger organizational strategies.

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Gist is a deep dive into modern labor organizing, showing how grassroots tactics, worker solidarity, and smart adaptation to corporate countermeasures made history at one of the world’s most powerful companies. Palmer’s story, as revealed in his interview and new handbook, is both a blueprint and an inspiration for future workplace revolutions.

---

For more on Derrick Palmer’s methods and the lessons for organizing in the 21st century, check out his book "Handbook for the Revolution: Building a More Perfect Union for the 21st Century."

Transcript

[Dish Commercial Announcer]

Celebrate America's 250th with Dish. For a limited time. Get an extra $250 off when you sign up. Call 888-add-direct or visit dish.com today and use code DISH250 to claim your $250 savings. That's 888 Add Dish. Offer ends August 12th. Terms apply.

[Mike Pesca]

Foreign. It's Tuesday, June 9, 2026. From Peach Fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. And the election in Maine. The primary in Maine is today. All eyes on that. Most likely, it will be a Graham Platner win. I do have to say I've talked a lot about Graham Platner, and the word Totenkopf has come up more often than the words harbor master. You know, Graham Platner was the harbor master of his town and pays $3,000. Maybe that's not a price tag commensurate with the important seemingness of the term the harbor master. Harbors are important and the sea is cruel and quite hard to master. You know, it takes more than a steady hand. It takes someone with perseverance and someone with farsightedness and probably someone who's not sexting six women on the side. But no, I only say that to say I would like to update one persistent cliche of politics, which is the go to denigration of dog catcher. Whenever they talk about, oh, any election from president down to, it's always down to dog catcher. And I have looked it up, and there are a couple of places they don't call them dog catcher anymore. But there are a very few places, municipalities that do have elected positions that would oversee animal control. But, you know, harbor master, though not elected, is. Is a municipal position. Can we please say anyone from the president of the United States down to the harbor master? I don't think we can. Dog catcher does seem to be more of a derogatory phrase than the harbor master. But if we were to say that, I think we'd be making a point and not really able to express our franchise in Maine. We'd be able to do what we can with the language and the culture. And as you know, politics is downstream from culture. And who knows more about what goes downstream than a harbor master master? A master of the harbor cleaning up the shells and the oysters and selling them to his mom. I know way too much about Graham Platner, don't I? On the show today, I've got a really excellent spiel about a local race where if you're Living in New York and Harlem and the Bronx. You can vote on June 23. One of the candidates has risen to my attention and risen to some sort of prominence and maybe even risen to a tie in the polls. I'm going to tell you all about her. Once wiped her hands with the American flag. Wants to be your Democratic representative in Congress. Said, no more notes. Fuck Kamala Harris. Joe Biden's a rapist, said these things. Wants to represent the Democrats. And eventually the district in Congress just might. But first we have on Derek Palmer. He worked for Amazon and then he created a union. The only union that Amazon is, has ever. Well, they didn't allow it, but the law did. And Derek Palmer is here talking about his handbook for the revolution, building a more perfect union for the 21st century. Derek Palmer up next. Ever notice how the second you Google something, suddenly every ad you see is about that thing? Or when you're traveling and just want to watch the show you always wanted to watch, it's blocked. Yeah, the Internet isn't really open. They call it the open Internet. No, you have to start using a product like Proton vpn. I use Proton vpn, the traveling part. I mean, I'm paying for my subscription. It doesn't matter if I'm overseas. The way I see it, I want to see what I'm paying for on occasion. And also the security is really important. So ProtonVPN is a secure VPN service designed for people who want to prioritize their digital privacy and security. Haven't hit that point as hard. There's the convenience aspect and there's the privacy aspect. It keeps what you do online private and lets you access the Internet like it should work. Open, secure and on your terms. They have strict no logs policy that's independently verified and it works seamlessly. So whether you want to watch content from anywhere, get around block sites or just keep your activity private on public Wi Fi, protect yourself. ProtonVPN has you covered. It's easy to get started. Right now, Proton VPN is offering our listeners 70% off a two year plan. When you go to Proton vpn.com/gist that's PR O to N vpn.com/gist for 70% off your two year plan, that's Proton vpn.com/Gist.

[Dish Commercial Announcer]

Celebrate America's 250th with Dish for a limited time. Get an extra $250 off when you sign up. Call 888-add Dish or visit dish.com today and use code DISH250 to claim your $250 savings. That's 888. Add Dish. Offer ends August 12th. Terms apply.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Foreign.

[Mike Pesca]

Derek Palmer is a co founder of the Amazon Union. I could say the first Amazon union. I could say one of the Amazon unions. Except that would be inaccurate. What he did, he and his friend Chris Malls in convincing his coworkers to vote for a union in Staten island has not been replicated. But still it was an achievement. It landed him on the COVID of the New York Times. It got him and Chris named TIME 2022 People of the Year among the TIME 100. He is now out with a handbook. It is in fact a handbook for the revolution. As he says, building a more perfect Union for the 21st century. We'll talk about him and about his work. Derek, welcome to the gist.

[Derek Palmer]

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

[Mike Pesca]

So I know you didn't want to write a memoir. I know Chris wrote a memoir and you wanted to write the handbook and we're going to talk about this. But I like a lot of people think in terms of people and in terms of journey. So I want to ask you some questions about yourself. Before you worked for Amazon, what was your job?

[Derek Palmer]

I've worked several, several jobs. I've worked at TJ Maxx, I've worked for warehouse, plenty other warehouse jobs as well. Williams Sonoma. And I've worked in retail grocery stores as well. Shoprite. So I've always been an essential worker.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Before you even knew that that was a title. What made you take the job at Amazon?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, at the time, you know, I was kind of like bouncing around from temp job to temp job.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Derek Palmer]

And I actually found out about Amazon through my mom, you know, shout out to her, you know, she's the one who made all this happen.

[Mike Pesca]

So what year was this?

[Derek Palmer]

This was in 2015. That's when I first started Amazon.

[Mike Pesca]

So how long were you there before you started thinking about unions or someone put the idea of unionization in your ear? And I'll even say, ever been with shoprite? They have. There's very strong grocery workers union. You ever been unionized in the past?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, yeah, I did work for Shop. Right. But I don't believe that store was unionized. I'm not mistaken. It's been so long I don't even remember at the time. So I was in high school, but yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Were you in unions in the past?

[Derek Palmer]

No, no, never.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And so when did you start thinking about it and how just are thinking about it with Amazon?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, I Mean, the idea really came about just my experience with Amazon, just the treatment of the workers. You know, it just. It just wasn't. Wasn't a good thing at all. So, like, it was like a frustration that kind of built. You know, as time went on, I kind of noticed it. Note like, 20, I would say 2015, 2016. I noticed. I was like, yeah, there's some problems here. You know, I just didn't know the proper way to go about. Really wasn't until after the pandemic. You know, actually during the pandemic, when me and Chris organized that walkout at JFK 8. And you know, that kind of like.

[Mike Pesca]

That was your warehouse. That was what they called the warehouse. Yeah. The very humane term for it. I don't know, maybe it would be worse if they called it, you know, Amazon Happy place or something like that. Amazon Jell O House. Yeah.

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah. I wish it was a happy place.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. So you organize a work out there and give me some idea about some of the conditions. I think most of us, most of my listeners have read about lack of bathroom breaks and some of the physical toll that it could take on especially older workers. You're a healthy young man, but what did you see? What did you experience?

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, I experienced a lot of people honestly risking their health just to make it to work. You know, as, you know that there's no sick time at Amazon, so people were, you know, making it their business to be at work all the time. The conditions are just. They're very bad. You know, the dust in the air is bad. You leave work and you have like black, black snot in your nose. It's. It's really. It's really bad as far as that goes. Even like the, the microwaves and the, the refrigerators, they. Sometimes there's like roaches and roaches there. I found a lot of them there.

[Mike Pesca]

The water's supposed to eat. Your lunch is full of roaches, you're saying.

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's been plenty of complaints. Even in Amazon's own internal system, the VOA board, there's been plenty of complaints about that. And really, it's just working those long hours as well. That's the, that's the real issue, you know, working there, working the 10 hours, 11 hours. Some. Some workers even work 12 hours a day. So, you know, those. All those conditions combined, you know, makes it. Makes it pretty rough to work there.

[Mike Pesca]

Did it. Did a time and a half situation ever kick in after eight? Did they ever up the pay for more hours?

[Derek Palmer]

No, you only Work over. You only get overtime if you work over 40 hours. That's it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And so what they would do is they'd have you 10 hours or maybe 12 hours, three days a week and know not to schedule you the rest of the week.

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, well, there's different type of schedules. Like I'm on a full time schedule. I work 40 hours, four days, four days a week, 10 hours. And then they have like a RT schedule or people that work the nighttime, they work 12 hours a day for three, three days and then have the other days off. So this different, different schedules they have.

[Mike Pesca]

So when you, and. Well, first of all describe your relationship with Chris at that point, were, did you meet at Amazon? Were you friendly based on bonding over these issues?

[Derek Palmer]

Yeah, I mean we, we actually met at Amazon. He was, he was my supervisor, quote unquote, supervisor process assistant. And we met in 2019. Actually, I originally had a different manager. I forget, I honestly forget her name. It was, it was Ben, but I went under another manager named Bertram Bertrand Price and Christian Smalls is right underneath him and two black, two black managers. And you know, we bonded, you know, me and Chris both around the same age and we both had similar stories with Amazon, we both from New Jersey. So it just connected and then come to find out we lived eight minutes from each other and didn't even know about it. So it was instant, instant connection here.

[Mike Pesca]

What's the demographic breakdown of the workforce in that warehouse, would you estimate?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, it's definitely majority people of color. I don't know the specific numbers off top, but it's definitely people of color. Is the majority of the warehouse workers

[Mike Pesca]

the higher up you go in management, did that state, was that consistent? I don't mean to Bezos, but I mean just in the warehouse.

[Derek Palmer]

Well, I mean as time went on there's been, I can say that there's been an increase of black and brown management, but I honestly think it's solely due to the article that was put out. I don't know if you read it, Jody Kantor. I was actually on the COVID of that New York Times article and it actually exposed the fact that there's a lack of black and Brown leadership in JFK 8. So I think ever since that article came out, it kind of motivated them to get more to make themselves look good. You know what I'm saying?

[Mike Pesca]

Uh huh. Or not bad or let's stay off the COVID at the New York Times for this particular issue. Now at the time you didn't have a handbook like this. And as you write in the handbook you wish you did, right? And this is for the next generation. But just take me through without a handbook. What was your. Or maybe Chris, who was your supervisor, maybe he knew more about it. What was your game plan for how to organize once you decided we need a union here?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, before we even started our campaign, me and Chris, we took the initiative to actually drive from New Jersey all the way to Alabama because at the time, the union, the rwdsu, they were attempting to unionize a facility down there in Bessemer, Alabama. In Bessemer, Alabama? Yes. So, yeah, that was like our, our homework assignment. That was where we kind of figured out what we were going to do in our, you know, once we started. And we, we learned a lot from that campaign. So that was.

[Mike Pesca]

Did you call a union or did someone give you that idea? Or did you say, the only way we're going to learn is to go see it in Alabama?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, that was just like our idea collectively, you know, because that's, that's what they were doing in Alabama. So we were like, you know what? We don't know how it's going to turn out based on what we saw there. So we said, you know what? We're just learning from, you know, things that we saw as mistakes there. And we're going to, you know, do our campaign the way that we wanted to do it. And that's more worker to worker, grassroots campaign. You know, we didn't want to get under a traditional union specifically at that time, because they might have had a different direction and they may have, you know, gave us the wrong insight because we have the most insight. We're working 10 hours a day. You know, even though Chris wasn't there, he's. No, he still had an idea of how Amazon was, how Amazon operated, and I'm still in the building.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Now tell me why Chris wasn't there.

[Derek Palmer]

Well, he was actually terminated in 2020, March 30, for organizing that walkout.

[Mike Pesca]

Before the walkout, how aware was management of what you were doing? What you were doing was maybe talking about a union, maybe just talking about a walkout, but talking about conditions amongst the workers. Did management know about this?

[Derek Palmer]

Oh, no, no. Management wasn't really aware of that. You know, that was just, that was something that they were aware of after that. But during that time they were just like, oh, they're just workers that are just complaining, you know. But we already had, we, we pretty much had like the leadership, quote unquote roles inside of Amazon. So people kind of Looked for. Looked at us as the people that, you know, like the spokespeople spokesperson at the time. And it just. I guess it just gradually built on and, you know, that's when Amazon started taking us serious, you know, after the walkout.

[Mike Pesca]

Mm. And when you decided to have the walkout, were you already pretty convinced that you were gonna work towards a union, that that was the end goal?

[Derek Palmer]

Yes, that was definitely the end goal at the time. You know, we just figured that we'd do this walkout and that'll get enough attention and Amazon will, you know, basically close the building down and sanitize it properly. That's all we really wanted. But they took it to another level, and there was actually a memo that was leaked out from Jeff Bezos and executive board talking about that walkout and labeling Chris as not smart or articulate. So once that came out, we knew that we were a threat to them and that we had to continue what we were doing, whether it's more walkouts. Originally, we were the Congress of Essential Workers, and that was basically getting a collective of different workers from different industries to be on the same page as us. And we went to all of Jeff Bezos mansions in the United States and just raised awareness.

[Mike Pesca]

The vote. Remind me one shot at it. And you got unionized. You decided to. For the workers. Voted for the union the very first time you had the vote.

[Derek Palmer]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And so that's a little unusual for unions, right, to win a vote the first time out. Oftentimes it takes many votes to vote to unionize.

[Derek Palmer]

That is true. Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And what do you think the difference was with your union?

[Derek Palmer]

Oh, well, you know, I think it was. It was really, I would say, intimate. You know, like the core group that we have were all active Amazon workers and have been imported Amazon for multiple years. So, you know, when we're trying to, you know, communicate with workers how important it is to have a union or just get their insight on what changes need to be made. The union was always a solution to that problem. Now you got to deal with people that are scared. That's. That's one hurdle. You got to deal with people that. That just may have just negative feelings about it, and you can't let it discourage you. But ultimately, you know, that was the influence that Amazon couldn't. They couldn't counter attack it, even though they bought in. Union consultants. They bought in. They. They had captive audience meetings and basically downplayed all unions and made all workers attend these meetings so that they could be scared for the vote. But it didn't work because we had myself, you had other, other organizers speaking out at those meetings. And instantly we gained more attention by then having these captive audience meetings, which was designed to discourage them. So we used, we used that against them. And it played along. It played a major part in the fact that we were consistent. We organized this whole thing for a whole year. Some of us were sleeping outside, across the street at the bus stop, just to talk to both shifts, just to talk to night shift workers, just to talk to day shift workers. So we were in and out the building and consistent throughout the, throughout the entire duration of the campaign.

[Mike Pesca]

What was the difference between the success of your union and, for instance, what you just mentioned, how those sessions that were designed to maybe dissuade the union backfired on the company, was why doesn't that pattern hold in other places like Bessemer, which you mentioned? They've never unionized, and the union that they're trying to join files as a complaint or note. Sometimes they file as an official complaint, sometimes they just note. Well, it's really hard. Management has these companies that try to dissuade us, but with your case, you jujitsu them and used it against them. And that's my question. What's the difference between you and all these other places?

[Derek Palmer]

Well, you know, for Bessemer, for that campaign, for example, you know, like, like, like I was saying earlier, you know, there were some things that we saw early on that we kind of figured, damn, that that might, that might hurt them when it's time to vote. But I know that their core team at that, that first, that first initial vote, there wasn't as many organizers inside of the building. So I think that played a major role because you got to have people in all departments, or at least most departments, like basically that core leader. And they didn't really have that at the time. You know, when they were getting people to vote, majority of them were online signatures. So our signatures were in person. So it does play a part. And I'm not too sure about their captive audience meetings, how they handled them. If you don't have enough leaders and they're not attending all these captive audience meetings, there's people that are the workers that are maybe uneducated about unions. And then the first thing to hear about a union is that they're bad. And they were very consistent with their captive audience meetings down there in Alabama. So that really plays a huge role on the worker's psyche, hearing these bad things about a union, which isn't the Case. You know, the unions are designed to have a better, to have a better work experience for workers, you know, to have better pay, you know, job security, things that they don't have in Amazon.

[Mike Pesca]

Derek Palmer is one of the organizers behind the Amazon union and he is out now with Handbook for the Revolution, Building a More Perfect union for the 21st century. Derek, great to talk to you. Great, Great to meet you.

[Derek Palmer]

Thank you for having me. I appreciate you.

[Mike Pesca]

True Work is a brand that I wear. And every once in a while they'll ship me a piece of clothing that really works with me that I didn't think of, like pants with the knee pads built in. And then I go to the backyard and I lean down, I'm like, my God. My God. They're changing the game. And they're changing the game because of the fabrics, because most workwear is made from cotton blends which restrict movement and get soaked after a few raindrops or, you know, whatever perspiration one's own body emits. Not True Work. Springtime is a perfect season for the T2 work pant. There you go. That's the one. Keeps you comfortable over a wide range of options. I use True Work all the time. I would say use it uses the word they want. I just wear it. I will just wear it out. And it's a really good looking pant with a lot of pocket. I guess we're speaking singular pant and pocket. The work doesn't stop just because the weather changes. Upgrade to the T2 work pant and stay comfortable no matter what the day brings. Get 15% off your first order at TrueWorker.com with code. The gist, that's T R U E W E-R-K.com CodeTheGist TrueWork built like it matters because it does.

[Dish Commercial Announcer]

Celebrate America's 250th with Dish for a limited time. Get an extra $250 off when you sign up. Call 888, add dish or visit dish.com today and use code DISH250 to claim your $250 savings. That's 8-88-add dish. Offer ends August 12th. Terms apply.

[Mike Pesca]

And now the spiel. A congressional race here in New York is heating up with political betrayal, payback and a comeuppance on the line. The Democratic primary on June 23rd will determine who goes to Congress, since the seat we're talking about is New York's 13th congressional district, which to say is overly Democratic is an understatement. They voted for Obama by 90%. Margins. They voted for Clinton almost the same. Trump did a little better. It was about 8020 with him in 2024. The incumbent is Adriano Espionage, 71 years old. He's served in Congress for five terms. He is the first formerly undocumented American to hold office, a status he is quite proud of because it gives him credibility on an issue very important to his constituents.

[Adriano Espaillat]

And I defend immigrants because I am an immigrant. You know, it was in my house that they came knocking looking for my sister. It was me that had to go back to the Dominican Republic to get my green car. Had I not gotten my green car, I would have been stuck over there. I know firsthand what it is to be undocumented, to be afraid. My grandmother used to tell me as a kid, watch out when you go out outside and you see somebody coming towards you because that may be the migra. So no one could tell me about this. I know this firsthand. And I've gotten results from my district. I continue to fight for my district. I'm a new voice. I'm an undocumented member of a formerly undocumented member of Congress and the first elected Dominican American in the nation.

[Mike Pesca]

That was him on a recent episode of WNYC's Brian Lair Show. But Espayat did not endorse Zoran Mamdani in the Democratic primary for mayor. Espayat came around to endorse the mayor in the general and for a while it seemed like all was forgiven. He campaigned for Mom Donnie. He spoke of him highly. There was a lot of energy behind his endorsement in the general, but all was not forgiven. You can't spell double cross without D, S, N A and mum Donnie has thrown in with Espiot's challenger. But you know what? That's fine from Mom Danny's perspective, if he thought the challenger was great. So I am here to tell you a little bit about Dariel Lisa Avila Chevalier. The 32 year old is a PhD student in Sociology at City College. She is an organizer who, according to the left leaning website Hellgate, quote, was working to free New Yorkers from immigration detention, including her friend Mahmoud Khalil, and leading pro Palestinian protests at her alma mater, Columbia University. She, by the way, had not been a student there since 2016, but on campus she was protesting. No matter, Avila Chevalier will not be silenced, except a little bit by herself because before announcing her run she deleted old Twitter posts. But cnn, Politico and others found them. Here are some of them. Quote, a world without borders, just like a world without prisons. Or police is possible, necessary, and and the only moral way forward. Okay, then. During three days in September of 21, she reposted now deleted messages declaring, yes, literally, abolish the border and quote, all deportation is wrong. She posted, most of the theory I've read is communism, but the pyromania associated with anarchism is very intriguing to me. She posted to abolish the police, but of course, we know now that abolish the police can mean many things, like a call to reimagine policing as we know it. Nope, I'll stop there. Because she wrote, quote, no, it means ending policing, full stop, period. No more police at all, ever. And to make her point, she added the clap emojis. Espionage has now taken out an ad highlighting some of her tweets.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Let's meet Dariel Lisa in her own words, thank you. She won't stand by Kamala Harris.

[Derek Palmer]

Okay, let's get to business. Let.

[Narrator/Reporter]

She won't stand by Joe Biden. She even called him a rapist. She won't stand by veterans or the American flag. She stands with dividing us by race. Meet the real Dariel Lisa, the one she tried to delete.

[Adriano Espaillat]

I'm Adriano Spar, and I approve this message.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so the four tweets mentioned, there were, quote, I have no nuance to add, fuck Kamala Harris. She did call Joe Biden a racist. And then there was her tweet saying, I forgot to get napkins, so I just wipe my hand on the American flag behind me. The reference you heard at the end of the ad regarding her dividing by race, that was a tweet reading, black men, Arab men, fetishizing ugly colonizer women. For her part, Avia Chevalier says these were old tweets way back in 2020 and 2021. She last tweeted in 2022. She told CNN, My opponent wants to live in the past. He is re litigating social media posts from half a decade ago. She said to Brian Lehrer on wnyc,

[Dariel Lisa Avila Chevalier]

as you've noted, I've grown considerably since that. And, you know, and I'm not interested in relitigating the politics of my tweets, which are politics of the past.

[Mike Pesca]

When Lair asked, o, what are your positions today on say, all deportation being wrong? Avelia Chevalier answered, as someone who has

[Dariel Lisa Avila Chevalier]

studied as a PhD candidate, immigration. Right. This is something that I have been spending years taking a deep dive into and try to fully understand on a policy level, on a social theory level, from a sociological perspective. And I do believe that deportation is wrong. And I believe that because it is about punishing people on the basis of where they were born. That is not something that we do.

[Derek Palmer]

All deportation, including of people who came here illegally and committed violent acts.

[Mike Pesca]

Just trying to see where the line is.

[Derek Palmer]

Based on your previous position.

[Dariel Lisa Avila Chevalier]

You know, we have a criminal justice system that exists. It is imperfect, but it exists.

[Mike Pesca]

She went on to say that no, she would not deport people who were here illegally after they commit even serious crimes because that discriminates against where they were born. Okay, but how is she different in substance from Sbyat? It's really hard to say. Avila Chevalier lists several bills that Sbyat does not support, including the Abolish ICE Act. But Espion has been advocating for the policy of abolishing ice, if not by the exact words of that bill or the specific name. He's been doing this since he was first elected. Here's a press release from his website. In 2018, members of Congress introduced legislation to terminate ICE and transfer critical functions to other agencies. July 12, 2018 U.S. representatives Adriano Espion, Mark Pocahan and Pramila Jayapal today introduced the Establishing a Humane Immigration Enforcement Systems Act. As BIOT clearly doesn't think the words abolish ICE were the best slogan to do just that, which is what he wants to do. And so Avila Chevalier pointed this out.

[Dariel Lisa Avila Chevalier]

I find it really concerning that he would characterize himself as someone who's leading the charge on this when it wasn't until I saw a mailer recently where he said Abolish for the first time. These are not semantics. These words matter.

[Mike Pesca]

Case you had trouble hearing over the static in the original broadcast that was there from them, Avila Chevalier said. These are not semantics. These words matter. What really will matter the most in this race? It's hard to say. Some voters won't like that she called Biden a rapist. Some might love her fiery energy. It's also a very anti Zionist moment in America right now and Sbiot has taken funding from aipac. Will the mostly Dominican, Puerto Rican and African American voters care that she tweeted that she wiped her hands on the flag? This isn't Texas. This isn't Georgia. These voters are poor and urban and they are worried about migration and immigration. I doubt, however, that SBYAT's 10 year record assisting immigrants will just disappear in the minds of voters. But who knows which voters will turn out? This is a primary Turnout is usually low on a late June afternoon. On a Tuesday, the Mamdani endorsement will go a long, long way polling in such a district is hard. It's expensive. But the campaigns have their own polls and, and their reactions indicate that this is a very tight race. The biggest factor of all might be that she is 32 and he is 71 and the gerontocracy is under assault. This is, of course, a vulnerability in the main Senate race where Susan Collins is 73 and Graham Platner is 41. Of course, Maine is now a plus 14 Democratic state. The district we're talking about, New York's 13th, is plus 32 Democratic, the 13th most Democratic district in America. But if you parse out that Democratic vote, is it plus 10 DSA over, let's say FDR Dems? There is no polling on that. That's it for today's show. Cory War is back to producing the Gist in his producer seat. And Jeff Craig takes his regular seat over there in Europe. He is the producer of how to. By the way, you should listen to How TO today as we answer the question how to ditch your distractions once and for all. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. Ben Astaire is the booking producer, and Michelle Pesca is the CEO of Peach Fish Productions. She would never wipe her hands not only on an American flag, but anything other than a fine cloth napkin. And thanks for listening.

[Dish Commercial Announcer]

Celebrate America's 250th with Dish. For a limited time, get an extra $250 off when you sign up. Call 888Add dish or visit dish.com today and use use code DISH250 to claim your $250 savings. That's 8-8 8-Add dish. Offer ends August 12th. Terms apply.