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The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses. Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
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Ever notice how ads always pop up at the worst moments when the killer's identity is about to be revealed during that perfect meditation flow on Amazon Music, we believe in keeping you in the moment. That's why we've got millions of ad free podcast episodes so you can stay completely immersed in every story, every reveal, every breath. Download the Amazon Music app and start listening to your favorite podcasts. Ad free included with Prime Foreign It's
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Monday, March 10, 2026 from Peach Fish Productions. It's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. This is a conversation I was looking forward to having and it worked even better than I thought it would. So I knew about what happened to Elizabeth Sirkov for a while. Cost my friend Ben Wittis of Lawfare hooked up with her sister Emma to try to free Elizabeth from a hostage situation in Iraq. She was kidnapped by an Iranian backed militia. In fact the most powerful Iranian backed militia in Iraq and there are a few, maybe there will be a few later these days. Khatib, Hezbollah. She put herself on their radar by just being a Westerner. When they kidnapped Elizabeth, they knew, I think they knew that she was a Princeton PhD student. They did not know at the time that she was an Israeli national. She' also a Russian. She's not American, but her affiliation is Princeton, Israel, Russia. And of those three things, you know that Israel put her in the most dangerous situation. And in fact she was beaten very badly. She was held for almost a year and a half. She was tortured. She wrote about this in the Atlantic in a story, a great story. She's a smart person and a great writer who has studied these militias and Syrian citizens in the entire area. I was kidnapped by Idiots is the name of her Atlantic story. And in this conversation you're going to get and I want you to listen for a few things. I want you to listen for who she credits and who she gives no credit to of the different constituencies who had an opportunity to do something to save her in any way. And what's interesting is that Ben Wittis and immediately and Ben Wittes is as big a critic of Trump as you'll ever hear. He said I will give the devil his due, or in this case our president his due. Donald Trump's theory of the case and his philosophy and his strategy worked in a way that the Biden administrations did not. We get into that. You will also hear at some point that the audio gets odd. And that is because, well, I'll tell you why. But there is a reason for that when it happens and it all relates to Elizabeth's harrowing ordeal. And then we get back to the fact I was talking to Elizabeth from Israel and this conversation occurred before the war with Iran. But even being an Israeli national who has done nothing but exemplify what that country stand, much of what that country stands for, which is scholarship and being open to differing ideas, even that these days does not put you in good stead with some very powerful and important and influential and to my mind, heretofore respected figures in Israel. I don't want to tease this conversation too much. It was one of the most meaningful I've had in a while. Elizabeth Tsurkov up next.
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Foreign
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I am a big user of Claude, the AI tool that goes the extra mile. The next step I've used Claude to build out a system that suggests funny, quirky, but not just obvious stories for the gist list. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow flow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. So just a couple of deep research assignments I gave Claude. I wanted it to tell me Gina Gershon's top grossing movies as adjusted for inflation, but also set against the cost of production. So this is not something that the IMDb will get you. This is something that it's not maybe that hard, but it really could take me an hour and a half to do. It took it 10 seconds. And the answer, by the way, is face off by far and away $287 million. And that is non inflation adjusted. Ready to tackle bigger problems? Get started with Claude today at Claude.AI/the gist. That's Claude.AI/the gist. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in Today's episode. Claude AI/the gist Ed can be really distressful. All these are distressful. It's right there in the word dysfunction. But with the E it's especially so. But I want you to know that ED is more common than you think and simpler to treat than you think. Through hims you can connect online with a licensed provider to access personalized treatment options discreetly and on your terms. It's not a one size fits all care that forgets you in the waiting room. It's your health with real medical providers making sure you get what you need to get results. ED Treatment from hims Offering options ranging from personalized products to trusted generics that cost 95% less than brand names. To get simple online access to personalized affordable care for ed, hair loss, weight loss and more, visit hims.com the gist that's himss.com the gist for your free online visit hims.com the gist Featured Products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for details, restrictions and important safety information. Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan Winter Job sites do not mess around and March is winter and the snow is on the ground here in the Northeast. Freezing mornings, wet conditions and the wind. Oh the wind. So that's why I wear True Work whenever I'm out shoveling or doing what I need to do in these terrible conditions. Founded by a trade professional who is done with soaking wet heavy gear slowing them down, True Work set out to make workwear that keeps pros comfortable. And they succeeded. And they keep me a decidedly non pro. But a guy who has to shovel a lot this winter keeps me comfortable too. So you know brands like Carhartt and Dickies. They are cotton based gear that gets heavy when wet, not True Work. Advanced performance fabrics that really work. Moisture Wicking oh the wicking. Wind resistant and insulated. Every piece is tested on real job sites. Don't let cheap gear slow you down this winter. Upgrade your day with workwear built like it matters. Get 15% off your first order@True Work.com with the code the Gist. That's T R U E w e r k.com Elizabeth Surkov was a PhD researcher affiliated with Princeton University in Baghdad is when she was kidnapped by an Iraqi militia backed by Iran Khatib Hezbollah and for over 900 days she was detained and tortured. But now she is. She is out. The entire ordeal and story is fascinating. One of the best articles you'll ever read with one of the best headlines and we actually talk about it a little at the end is I was kidnapped by idiots. An academic field trip to Iraq unexpectedly turned into an immersive field study on the ways authoritarian regimes use brutality. Indeed it did. She learned a lot and I think she's still recovering. Elizabeth joins me now thank you for being on the gist.
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Thank you. It's my pleasure, Mike.
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So we're going to. In this interview, I do want to establish, so everyone knows the stakes early on, without re. Traumatizing you, some of the details of the torture. And then we'll zoom back and talk about maybe things you didn't even know at the time about what's going. What was going. Going on, what was informing these kidnappers. But let's. And I do apologize for this so people understand. What were you put through by these idiots?
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Yeah, so. And this is something that I mentioned in the article. And basically, you know, while these individuals are very, very ignorant and quite stupid, they are highly experienced at causing harm to other human beings and they clearly also enjoy it. And basically, you know, I was kidnapped for ransom as a foreigner. After they opened my phone, they realized that I'm Israeli. So then they insisted that I'm a spy. They generally think that foreigners in Iraq are spies. Whether you're a teacher or you're an engineer, you're there to spy, you know, so they basically believe that there are thousands of spies walking around Iraq at any given moment. You know, and basically once they open my phone, they start torturing me. And the torture is, it utilizes methods that are known in Iraq and are used in some other Middle Eastern countries. So that is, you know, why I'm kind of not sitting properly right now. Because basically one of the modes of torture is you get handcuffed behind your back and then you're lifted with a hook through, through the handcuffs. And that caused my back to herniate. I have two herniated discs as a result of that. It puts immense pressure on the shoulders and the joints and the arm, you know, creates cuts along the wrists. But for me, the main problem was the, the, the back because eight days prior to my kidnapping, I went through an operation on my back in Baghdad to fix three herniated discs. And basically two of those got, you know, were herniated again as a result of the torture. There was, you know, sexual assault and harassment. There was. They, they used electric shock on multiple occasions. You know, beatings to the face, to the face that caused me to lose a tooth. That also caused me concussions and just pain and using the jaw basically, and chewing, really, you know, after they herniated my back, they would put me in very uncomfortable positions due to the back being herniated. So they would see through cameras that were in my room that I would avoid certain positions. Like, for example, I would not bend to go to the toilet. So they would force me in that position because they knew that it would be painful. It forced me to just sit. Just sitting for me right now is torture. Let alone right after they herniated the discs. There was also mode of torture that is. No, is. Is known in Iran is Kapoor. It is basically you get handcuffed behind your. With the shoulders crossed this way and it causes immense pain in the shoulders
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A
and that, and that is translated as the scorpion. This is what they call it.
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B
Yeah, exactly. In, in Iraqi, like in Iraq it's known as scorpion. And it basically causes really like now I recreated it for the video and it's actually now very uncomfortable for me because they really damaged my should. Yeah, but I forgot that I did that move.
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A
But many, many people have said my interviews are torture now. Literally. Sorry, sorry. Okay, so as you said, they're extremely efficient at inflicting pain. But to what ends? They weren't, as you detail, at all efficient on using this pain to get any useful information. Right?
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B
Yeah. And actually they're not unique in this regard. Torture is not like there have been multip. Studies have done about it. It produces basically false confessions, the confession that the torture wants to hear because you just want the torture to stop. So let's for example, say you, you are a murderer, but you're getting tortured to confess to being a thief. You will confess to being a thief. You know, so basically they insisted that I'm a spy and that I need to confess to it. And I, to stop the torture, would come up with these different stories, you know, to try and, you know, fit into their worldview. And it took me a while to learn the insane things that they believe in to then match what I was confessing to to their distorted view of reality. So for example, they believe that the United States and Israel together, together created isis. Right. So I need. So when I made up a confession initially that, you know, is based. It's kind of more grounded in reality that they didn't, you know, that didn't pass, you know, so I needed to invent something that would, that would make sense to them that no. Yes, the US created ISIS and is sending people over from Syria to invade Iraq again and all of this nonsense. So unfortunately, because I very purposefully avoided while in Iraq any interaction with people affiliated with militias because it's dangerous and therefore I didn't have a good understanding of the alternative reality they live in. And so basically through months of beatings, I had to learn this, you know, on the job to like, okay, this doesn't make sense to them because they believe in this insane idea. So I need to match the confessions.
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A
Right, right. So they were inflicting pain. You were giving them what they want. It was an exchange of information. It was, you know, memes. This is what they call it. Just inform us, what was the nature of your PhD study and how much did you know about this militia or these militias beforehand?
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So I've researched Iraq for. For many years, but I never specialized in the militia. My. My knowledge about them was very much focused on their human rights abuses because I would write reports concerning human rights in Iraq. But so therefore, I didn't know about, you know, their worldview, their, you know, how they're, you know, how each militia is, you know, is divided into kind of subgroups and how they interact with one another. So my research, my academic research in Iraq focuses on the Sadrist movement. It is, you know, the largest political movement in Iraq and actually in the Middle east. It has about 1 million members. It is led by Mukhtar the Sadr, a clerical who used to be the leader of Jaysh Al Mahdi Mahdi army, which carried out attacks against the US Forces and is now basically. It used to be a political party within parliament and was the largest party in parliament, but then suddenly basically withdrew from Parliament since 2021. And my research is in the field of political science. I'm seeking to understand through examining this case study and also case study in Lebanon, why do people within political systems that on clientelism, basically buying votes through hiring people in the state or just giving them cash, you know, why do some people, you know, remain loyal to parties that are not delivering to them as much as they could from other parties? So it kind of contradicts that logic. So I basically did a lot of interviews with very simple, kind of Shia supporters of this movement and of this cleric.
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A
Yeah. And we should want that information, which will come up later. I mean, you are there for academic reasons, but the insights that you were trying to glean would help us as the United States would certainly help the world understand this potent and dangerous. What was originally the Modi army, and there are Iranian, Shia Muslim, Iranian affiliates who are extremely important and dangerous in Iraq. So you take a meeting trying to what was the COVID story or what was the meeting that you thought you were taking that led to your kidnapping?
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B
So it was a woman who reached out and said that she's a friend of a friend and asked me to help her with her research. And, you know, Iraqis are very, very generous people. They've helped me a great deal doing my research. I had, you know, three hernias in Iraq. I relied on people to literally carry me around. And I'm six foot tall, so. And they're tiny generally, so obviously compared to me, his especially. So I just felt, you know, I need to help her. Okay. Like, I don't have time for this. And it's hard for me to be sitting because it was eight days after an operation. But, you know, Iraqis have been so nice to me, let me go and meet her. And they made sure to have the meeting so close to my house that it wouldn't make any sense to take a taxi so that I would be walking on foot, and therefore it would be easy to grab me.
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A
So how long did it take for you to discern which exact faction this is? And how did you learn. You mentioned this before. How did you learn what they wanted from you or what they thought they wanted from you?
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B
So right away I knew, like, after, basically they started interrogating me, which I think was on the day after my kidnapping, it became clear to me that they didn't know that I'm also an Israeli national in addition to my Russian nationality. And I entered on a Russian passport.
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A
Right, so you are. You're Russian. You have this Princeton affiliation. And also, of course, the very dangerous part is that you are also Israeli. So you knew to hide that from them.
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B
Yeah, exactly. And. And indeed, you know, I. I had, you know, everyone whom I met in Iraq, I would say, I'm Russian, you know, and I am Russian. And basically when the interrogation started, I realized, oh, they don't know that I'm Israeli. So right away it became apparent that they're just kidnapping for ransom. It's not even anything, you know, ideological or whatever anti Israel move. It's just to get money. I didn't know for quite a long time who was holding me. And it only became like 100% that it's indeed, you know, katak Hezbollah once I came out, because, first of all, I went through debriefings with Israeli intelligence and also with the FBI, which opened the case into my kidnapping. And they've been utterly amaz and very, very dedicated working on this case while I was. I was in captivity. And both.
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A
Both Israeli intelligence and the FBI. You're paying to.
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Yeah, no, no, both. Both worked very hard. It's just that in the case of the FBI, I actually met the people who worked on my case, whereas in Israel, you know, they're like these super secret Mossad guys. So I never met them, you know, but the FBI got to meet, literally, the people who were fighting for me. And it was, you know, incredibly emotional moment. Just. They're just wonderful, dedicated people, mostly women, but also a few men worked on my case. So it was just. But. So, first of all, they have all the information that proves that it was Katab, but then even more, Katab was very helpful. In months, a month after they released me, they put up a statement on their telegram channel. And there, in a statement, they basically, because Katab Hezbollah was very afraid that Israel or, you know, the US Will realize that they're the ones holding me. So they kept denying or kind of hiding the fact that they're. That they're holding me. So they put out the statement that, again, did not claim responsibility for my kidnapping, but said that, you know, that they broke up the network that I was running. And they didn't. They didn't, you know, kidnap anyone because of me. Because I, you know, made sure to invent confessions that would not implicate any, you know, and Iraqis. Because I knew what this would mean. This is right.
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A
There were red lines to a number of your confessions. Not just people, but certain things that you knew not to admit, even though you were admitting all these fictions anyway.
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B
Yeah, I was willing to basically say anything about myself, you know, including that I like, you know, like, sexually exploited officials, like, in Iraq to, like, get them to flip, like, all sorts of, like. Yeah, just because this is what they believe, like, you know, female spies do. But I just wouldn't. I wouldn't, you know, implicate any innocent Iraqis because I knew what this would mean to them, you know, so I would just say, no, I was working by myself. And they would torture me severely to get the names and. And really put a lot of pressure on me. And really I feel that, like, by the grace of God, when I thought that I'm really going to give in and just give names to just stop the pain. This is when the torture stopped and they moved me to a different prison where there was no torture, basically, except, you know, being held in. In solitary and without a window for 25 months. Basically a month after they put out the statement that said, you know, that they broke up this ring of people working for me. But very usefully, they also put the name of. Of Mossad TIA officer. Because I confess to being like, a double spy. I guess, like, this salary in the age is not enough. Like, you need salaries, but one is
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A
the good medical benefits, and the other is.
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B
Yeah, exactly so basically, they put up the name of this fake person that I created that only they would know because they didn't release the name. And the name was actually a hint that I'm being tortured. The name is Ithanuima Inuim. And Hebrew is torture. So I invented it so that I assumed that they record, like, over 20 confession videos with me. I assumed they would be broadcast. They weren't. But I made up these several names of officers. It was Ethan Neuma and it was Tory Tour, like torture. And then there was Pete Kim, who is Putky in Russian is also torture. So I was just thinking, like, oh, this is going to get broadcast this way. Everyone's gonna know I'm being tortured too, so that they rush to take me out later. It turned out the Israelis knew all along I'm getting tortured. They had intelligence information about it. But.
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A
Yeah, yeah, but except for that one name, did Tori Tor and the other breadcrumbs ever get gobbled up by anyone? Did they see the light?
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B
Just mentioned. They mentioned Ithanouma, basically, the fake. So this was proof that they are the ones who helped me, because it was never this information. This fake Persona was never released otherwise. So that means they were the ones interrogating me.
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A
Right, Right, right.
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So they're the kidnappers.
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A
But even I would guess that even if Toritor and the other names didn't get out, just you using your intellect to resist probably was a benefit to you psychologically. It gave you some agency you could strategize and weren't totally helpless in this situation.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. And something that did get out is in November 23, an Iranian IRGC officer came to the second prison where I was held, and he recorded a confession video with me and also something related to the war in Gaza and basically ordered me to repeat the confessions that I'd made and also say stuff about the war in Gaza. And he asked me to say that where I lived in Israel. So I claimed that I lived in. In a neighborhood called Ghana Kashmal in Tel Aviv, which is a real neighborhood, but I never lived in it. And obviously my family knows I never lived there. And it means electricity garden. So it was basically a way to hint that I'm being electrocuted, which I was. And my sister heard it and got it. And some people inside, you know, different security establishments also, because they also had information about the torture. So it was like, oh, they get it. They understand I'm being tortured with electricity. So this information didn't get out.
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A
Wow. When they moved you to solitary. What was the explanation they gave? What did you tell yourself was the reason they must have been doing it? And now after you learn the truth, what was the real reason?
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B
So why did they move me? They never explained it. I think it was. It was like, okay, the move from that location to another location could be explained by some, you know, maybe they had concerns about the safety of the location, etc, and they wanted me to be closer to Iran because that the second facility was right on the border with Iran so they could smuggle me into Iran at any moment that they wished. But it doesn't explain why they stopped torturing me. Because the interrogation, they could have just. What happened is, you know, I confessed to a bunch of things under torture. And then they got so greedy they would just come in, string me up by my wrists, you know, and start beating me and tell me, I want something new. I want something I haven't heard before. I want something new. That's the quality of their interrogation. So they could have continued doing that forever. So why they stopped torturing me is unknown to me. And really I attribute it to divine intervention.
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A
Tell me about how you learned about and what they told you about the attacks of October 7th. Because that was a fascinating geopolitically and
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B
psychologically that occurred seven months after, six and a half months after my kidnapping. And later in the year, at the very end of 23, in the second facility, they gave me a TV so I could follow the news. But at the time, during, on October 7th itself, I didn't have a TV. So what I heard was from the guards, TV, they turned up the volume. They were right next to me, like behind the wall. And I heard what is being said. And it was in channels that are supportive of, you know, the Iranian access and resistance and all of this political sway. And, and basically they were talking about prisoners. They were saying prisoners, not hostages and soldiers. Like a lot of times it would repeat like in Arabic, like Asra and, and Janud. So I thought, okay, this sounds like, you know, like they invaded the military bases that surround Gaza, you know, and kidnapped some soldiers. And they were, they were saying there are like 250 hostages, like prisoners, they call them. So I thought, oh, for sure they're lying, you know, because these types of channel, like, they make up things all the time, right? But then the next day there was a nurse who was allowed to come and, and visit me and talk to me. So. And he was very, very kind to me. He's the friend of the commander of the base where I was Held instructed him to take care of me because my medical situation was catastrophic. You know, when I arrived there after, you know, four and a half months of starvation and torture and all sorts of medical issues, you know. Right.
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I mean, he was kind. But you're an asset that maybe can earn a ransom. So that's informing the kindness.
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B
Yeah, no, I think, I think, I think they definitely, obviously wanted to keep me alive, but I think there was also genuine just. And this is actually something that is not unique to my case. There's something that happened with multiple hostages in Gaza that there were some, you know, people who were after beasts and then some would, like, sneak food and help them survive and not starve to death, you know. So, yeah, you find, you know, kindness even in very, you know, very strange places. It does exist. So. So he told me, like, yeah, there, there are all these, like, the number of hostages, the number of killed is, Is real. Like what you overheard on TV, you know, like 1,200 killed. And they were like, my guards were ecstatic about it. They were so happy. They, on that day, on October 7th, one of the channels that they were, you know, that they were watching played this song by a Lebanese pro, pro Hezbollah singer. And it, it goes, Sansalif Al Quds, we will pray in Jerusalem. And it's a, It's a song from the 2000s. Like, you know, we will destroy the Zionists, we will pray in Jerusalem, liberation is near, etc. So they play it on this day. And one of the guards was so happy, he was stomping on the floor, you know, like, yes, yes, yes, this is happening, this is happening, you know, and, you know, they, they really didn't understand and neither did Hamas, obviously, what is going to happen next. They thought that this is just this amazing victory. Now Israel is going to. Because there are hostages in Gaza, it is going to release the prisoners that it holds, you know, people who have murdered, you know, thousands of Israelis collectively, that they will let them go and just not attack Gaza because there are 250 hostages inside. Like, they completely don't understand the government that is in Israel. And also the desire for vengeance that, you know, emerges after the slaughter, you know, entire families, you know, in their homes.
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A
We'll be back in a minute with more with Elizabeth Sir Cop. The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. What does it really mean to have a good life in our politics, our work, our relationships? If you care about social justice, science or the search for meaning, you'll find courageous, practical conversations. No Small Endeavor the Signal Award winning and Ambie Award nominated podcast produced by our friends at Great Feeling Studio. We've talked about no Small Endeavor in the past. Host Lee C. Camp leads thought provoking conversations with artists, philosophers, politics, politicians and beyond. Where do politics and justice meet? The pursuit of the common good? Find out with no Small Endeavor available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. We're back with Elizabeth Tsurkov who is the author of I Was Kidnapped by Idiots because she was talking more about her ordeal. It's a really interesting insight because when Hamas executed its attack, I think the best knowledge is that the Iranian, the other Iranian proxies, including Hezbollah, Hezbollah in Lebanon and your version of Hezbollah, they didn't know. But Hamas's strategy was to inspire them into, you know, a worldwide or region wide further action. So this shows that at least one proxy force really did not know that they actually were at least very excited by but then as the war progressed, what was their attitude?
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B
Right. So there no, they definitely didn't know. And if we think about it, right, we later saw the wars that occurred against Lebanon and Iran, right. And they demonstrated complete intelligence penetration by the Israelis. So yes. So actually if the date had been known to the Iranians or Hezbollah, it would have been known to Israel as well and the attack wouldn't have happened. Right. Israel would have stopped it, but they genuinely didn't know. Iran obviously financed the attack. The IRGC provided $500 million to, to Hamas for this attack. They discussed the general outline, but they didn't know the date. And, and the Sinwar purposefully hid it from him from them like they didn't know and therefore were not prepared to act immediately. You know.
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A
Right.
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B
And this was amazing luck for Israel because, you know, in theory, if Hezbollah had known about it, but it didn't become known to Israel, somehow it would have eluded detection. This would have meant that, you know, a much stronger force would cross into northern Israel with much more advanced weaponry and cause slaughter and kidnap way more people. You know, so the, but basically their sense initially that this was amazing, that they are really on the verge of, you know, succeeding. They're on the verge of really destroying the state of Israel. Then gradually, as time went on, they realized that they're not that this is not going to happen, you know, and, but still expected the overall war to be successful and that their effort, that their efforts to, you know, harass Israel and send drones and the Houthis firing missiles and Hezbollah, that all of this would basically lead Israel to end the war and capitulate.
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A
Right. And then they grew despondent as that became clear that that wasn't going to happen.
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B
Yeah, indeed. And I think really kind of of they were increasingly despondent, confused. Why is the war not ending? Especially if you look at channels that support like that's the stuff that they would watch, you know, channels that support this axis of resistance, especially Jazeera, which is run by out of Qatar and finance Qatar analysts there. And I would watch the channel as well. In captivity analysts there are constantly saying, you know, the resistance is so effective. Israel at the, all the soldiers are getting killed. Israel is hiding casualties. The soldiers who are not getting killed are killing themselves because they're so depressed. The victory is upon us. The economy is collapsing, everything is terrible and this is just not happening. So they were very, very confused. And then there was the day of the pager attack in Lebanon and that was day when they really gawked at me. They were clearly terrified. Like what is this? Like it just, it demonstrated just how penetrated this axis is. And, and also it's so humiliating, you know, because they, they purchased this. These are tracking devices that are also explosive and they pay the Mossad to buy it. Like this is just so that was really from there it just went downhill. You know. Then there was the war spun out. Nasrallah is assassinated, who was really the most popular symbol of the acts of resistance until, or you know, the Iranian axis until he was killed. They, the my guards would watch his speeches, you know, very excitedly. For example, they wouldn't watch speeches like Khamenemi, the supreme leader of Iran. He's you know, a 86 year old guy who speaks, he's not charismatic in any way, speaks very slowly, whereas Nasrama is really was this charismatic figure. So to them his loss was something that is just, that was utterly heartbreaking.
- [36:19]
A
Right. So a couple things I just want to tell my audience that you heard a difference in audio quality. Elizabeth has to pace and walk because of what she said, her herniated disc. She's still in a lot of pain and sitting down for any sort of extended period of time is just not doable. So please stay with us as you hear. It's fascinating interview. The other thing that I wanted to say or note was Elizabeth is a, was a Netanyahu opponent and protested against him. So when you hear her talk about the effectiveness of some of these strikes, just know where she was coming from, situating her in the domestic politics of Israel. And the third thing is my observation, which is when an entity or Hezbollah and Iran so dominate a media ecosystem that only disinformation comes through, we often think, well, that's a benefit to the people who are controlling the information. You convince publics of just about anything. But the downside, as we're hearing, is even the, even the entities that are controlling the media ecosystem are also lying to themselves. And therefore they can become surprised. And so it can in fact be a tactical disadvantage. I wanted to get to. And if you want to talk about any of that, you can, but I wanted to get to because it's really interesting. They made you write reports, they made you. They turned you into some sort of, I guess, quasi academic, or maybe if they thought you were a CIA officer, you'd have to be issuing briefings. What was the purpose of those reports and how did you approach them?
- [37:51]
B
So right after I was moved to the second facility, they told me to write out all my confessions in written form. And that was like over 100 pages because I spent, you know, basically, you know, since the moment the torture started. I started just, you know, for three and a half months. I was making shit up that then needed to be written down. And, and they asked me for all sorts of additional questions, like analytical questions, like, what's the difference between the CIA and Mossad in terms of, like, their cultural, like organizational culture? So I just made stuff up that I thought made sense. Like, I wasn't, you know, obviously I don't have actual information, but I, you know, just speculated about how different it would be. And then, so there were several more kind of analytical elements right away. And then after they gave me the tv, I started watching it. And I'm watching the channels that, you know, these guys are also watching, particularly Al Jazeera and also Mayadeen, which is a Lebanese Hezbollah, pro Hezbollah channel. And they're just lying to their viewers. They're telling them the war is going to be over. And, you know, for me, as an Israeli, as an analyst, I understand the political interests at play and that Netanyahu has no interest in ending the war anytime soon because he. That would, you know, damage his ability to sustain power because his two coalition partners on the far right want the war to continue forever to then, you know, ethically cleanse Gaza and establish settlements there. So it was, and in addition, he has the trial. He wants people to forget as much as possible October 7th. So he just wants to drag it on. And at the same time, this was during the Biden administration, still there was no pressure on. On Israel to end the war. You know, so one time the nurse came over and I was watching Al Jazeera, and I was telling him, like, this is nonsense. This war is going to last for a long time. You know, this is not going to end anytime soon. What these analysts are saying is nonsense. And he told me, like, could you please write about it? So I wrote about it, and this is how it started. Basically. We would often discuss politics when he would come and visit, visit me. And. And then he started coming with requests of papers that he got from higher ups that they want me to write about. So, for example, they asked me to write about how do I think, for example, this was after the war in Hezbollah. How do I think that Hezbollah got penetrated? You know, and based on media reports that were appearing in the different channels that I was watching, obviously didn't have Internet. There were all sorts of indications of how this penetration happened. And in addition to that, I do have, you know, I have read books, and during my obligatory military service in Israel, I served in the Directorate of Intelligence. So I don't have any relevant information. This was, you know, 20 years ago. But, you know, I do have some understanding of how this world works, you know, so, yeah, so I would write these reports to them. Then gradually, you know, as time went by, and it was clear to me that they told me that they're negotiating. So it was clear to me that the interrogation phase ended and that they're probably not going to start torturing me again. I started basically including more and more elements into these pieces that was utterly, like, genuine assessment. Much of it is basically, you know, pointing out how corrupt the factions are, how weak they are, how pathetic they are. How.
- [41:30]
A
You asked, right? You asked. This is the honest. The session.
- [41:33]
B
Exactly. So. And I know that. I know that one of the people who was. Who was. Who was reading it was very unhappy. Like, how. How dare she? Why is she writing it this way? Like, this isn't acceptable. But, you know, they didn't come and, like, start beating me over it. So I just kept writing in this way. And actually it got re. I got like, really kind of outrageously cheeky towards the end because I'm like, okay, just tolerated it, you know, because they do want the information that comes in. In the analysis. Then they did appreciate the analysis. Like, they, the the senior commander in the base, you know, said that this is good analysis and much better than what we have, you know, because their analysts consistently get everything wrong because they're, you know, first of all, they're quite ignorant about Israel, but also they're ideologically motivated to say everything we're doing is correct. So therefore they're predicting that reality will align with their ideology. And it. It just does it.
- [42:28]
A
When you were detained and being kidnapped, what did you tell yourself to keep going psychologically? Were there very low moments? There must have been. And what pulled you out of them?
- [42:43]
B
Well, I mean, first of all, the first four and a half months were actually terrible and very, very destructive to, to the mind. It's very important for me not to, you know, speaking to you, and I seem, you know, okay. It's very important for me to stress that this is in. To large extent because of the time that passed from the period when the physical, horrific torture ended. Because my mind at that stage, if you. I mean, in the first place, I wouldn't have given any interviews if I had just been. Been, you know, released from that prison because I was just like, not in a position to give any interviews, not in a position to hold a normal conversation. I was very, very, very distressed. What helped me in. In during that phase was, you know, I would feel that, you know, that I felt that I'm going to lose my mind. And I also felt that even if I don't lose my mind that, you know, these. These beasts have implanted in my mind such, you know, horrible memories that I would never be able to rid myself of them, and therefore I would never be happy, you know, and what's the point of living such a life, you know, now in, in that part of captivity? I was also, you know, I wanted to stop feeling the pain, and I was terrified that I would implicate others. So I stayed alive kind of because I had no option of not staying alive. Like, they made sure that this is not a prison in which you can kill yourself. I was really, really terrified that I would. That under pressure, I would implicate other people. And in my life is not worthier than their lives, obviously. And it's not just one person. They would kidnap them, they would torture them, they would then implicate multiple other people. So I was utterly terrified by that. What helped me then is I thought a lot about two very close friends of mine who are both Syrian and have both survived really, really horrific torture way worse than I did. And I know them. We're very close and they love me. And, you know, I was also very numb emotionally, you know, like a coping strategy. I just felt nothing. You know, I didn't feel fear. I didn't feel, I didn't miss my family. I was just, and I, I was afraid that I would just stay this way like a zombie, you know, what's the point of living such a life, you know. But I knew that they are loving people. I, I also know that they're funny and productive, you know, people both are researchers. So thinking about them really, really helped me. Like, I felt that they were there, that they were there with me in, in, in the, in the cell with me and, you know, they would lift my spirit, you know, thinking about them and thinking about, you know, if they manage to pull through something even more horrific than what I'm going through, then I'll be able to pull through, you know, so that would be.
- [45:53]
A
Have you seen them since?
- [45:54]
B
I, I've spoken to both by video, but I'm hoping to meet one of them soon in Europe, you know, unless a war breaks out with Iran and all flights are canceled. I'm hoping to see him next month.
- [46:13]
A
Elizabeth Serkov is now senior non resident fellow at the New Lines Institute. She. Did you get your. Where are you on the PhD?
- [46:23]
B
I'm writing the dissertation now. Yeah.
- [46:26]
A
Wow. That'll be. I hope that passes peer review. Thank you so much. Good luck with everything and really thanks for your insight, your time, your great article in the Atlantic and talking to me today. Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [46:43]
B
Thank you, Mike.
- [46:49]
A
And that's it for today's show. The Gist is produced by Cory Wara. Jeff Craig runs our socials. Ben Astaire is our production coordinator. Kathleen Sykes helps me with the just list. Kind of more than helps me. Mike. Pesca.substack.com is where to sign up for that. And Michelle Pesca runs it all. Not an idiot. She kidnapped me with her heart Improve and thanks for listening.