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- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
For a small business owner, every day is full of surprises. Some great, some not so great, like when a client cancels their order at the last minute. But here's a surprise you will like. Progressive provides small business owners with 30 customizable coverage options to help keep their business going strong. So go ahead, surprise yourself. Get a quote in as little as 8 minutes@progressivecommercial.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates and third party insurers. Coverage is not available in all states or for all vehicles and coverage selections
- [00:30]
Eric Lichblau
Foreign
- [00:34]
Mike Pesca
It's Tuesday, June 30, 2026. From Peach Fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. The Supreme Court came out with some important decisions today. Don't worry, I got a spiel for that. But first, I want to play for you a couple of things, a couple of treats from the Vault. You know, the Vault is almost impenetrable. We have a list of the things, but I don't even remember what's in the Vault half the time. And I've been listening to some of the old episodes or segments and sometimes I say good, and sometimes I say that could have been better. And sometimes I say, well, that was very of the moment. Remember when we thought that about Mueller, that he cracked lightning and pissed thunder? He did not. So I came across this segment which I will play for you, and it is called Vote Jabba. And I remember doing it because we submitted it for a Webby Award and it was actually nominated in 2017. And I was looking, I don't, I used to have the plaque, but when I left my old place, they threw away the plaque. And I don't know, I'm not going to pay for a plaque calling me a nominee. But here are the other nominees of that year. Accused the Unsolved murder of Elizabeth Anders and In the Dark, which is I think now a Pulitzer Prize winning podcast that gets people out of jail. So think about that and think about what you're about to hear, which was based on all these focus groups that they always have on TV where eight people are asked by Frank Luntz, I think his name is Luntz. I might have said Lutz. Lutz is a move in skating anyway. So too does he nail the toe loop and the triple cell cow when interviewing these eight people who are never undecided voters. They're never that satisfied with debate performances. Then we took it and we applied it to Star wars. And I was looking this up, this Webby Award nominated podcast. And they're on the Page. They have the credits. So I forgot. I was saying to myself, you know what really makes this is the voice acting. And when I worked at Slate, there were people around who sometimes were very talented and had acting experience. Catherine Wyncoop is one of the performers. Seth Stevenson. Al Smith, also the first Catholic to be nominated for president. I really remember Al Smith. Actually, I didn't remember Al Smith until I saw his name. And then I said, ah, Al Smith. I haven't thought about him for a long time. Mary Wilson produced it. I also remember Mary, what a producer she was. She's at the Daily now. Her saying, you should, you should submit this for the award. I'm like, isn't a podcast that gets someone out of jail likely to win the award? Anyway, I'll play this all for you as a trip down my memory lane, indulgent memory lane. And then I will say we have a spiel about the Supreme Court rulings and an interview with Eric Licht Blau, who wrote the book American Reich, A Murder in Orange County, Neo Nazis and a New Age of Hate. So stay tuned for all of that and stay tuned or you will hear now this. Like I said, Webby nominated Star wars inflected spiel. You ever watch those focus groups? CNN has them. CBS hired Frank Lutz, who does them professionally, to do them for that network. They get six or eight voters together. They stack them in two rows, it's always two rows on risers, and they figure out how the candidates are doing among these voters. You know the format. I want a word or phrase to describe tonight's debate. And I'm going to start in the second row.
- [03:58]
Marumaru
Sophomoric, embarrassment.
- [04:00]
Mike Pesca
Disappointing.
- [04:01]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Shameful.
- [04:02]
Eric Lichblau
Despicable.
- [04:03]
Mike Pesca
Angering. Low on substance. Well, what we've done here at the gist is to focus our attention on our own focus group. But it's not for any election nearby. Indeed, the two candidates are running in a municipality far, far away. Okay, I'd like to thank you all for coming. I know the forest moon of Endor is not the easiest place for you to get to. No, of course, of course. Wookiees are excellent navigators. Didn't mean to malign your kind. Okay, so you all have self identified as either supporters of or leaning toward in the next election, the candidacy of Jabba the Hutt. So, yes, you can you Plo Koon, can you tell me why you support Jabba the Hutt?
- [04:47]
Plo Koon
Yeah, well, I just think with all the infighting between the Empire and the Galactic Senate, you know, to say nothing of how The Trade Federation is eating our lunch like a klatooine patty frog. He's just a guy that's gonna cut through that crap. You know, I'm tired of the dysfunction of the Galactic Senate. Blah, blah, blah. Jabba the Hutt, you know, he gets shit done.
- [05:09]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, okay, I understand. But with that in mind, let me play you this clip of Jabba. Somewhat controversial. Let me get your opinion.
- [05:23]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Wonky cheese, a crisp Agrido.
- [05:26]
Mike Pesca
Now, a lot of people have called that insensitive. And I want to point out there is actually no evidence that the Gungans were celebrating the destruction of Alderaan. So, what about that? Go ahead, Placoon.
- [05:36]
Plo Koon
Sorry. Yeah, so I'm from Naboo, all right? And what he's saying there is true. Like, everyone from Naboo knows that. Like, I'm not saying all. Okay, I'm not saying all. I'm saying some Gungans were celebrating.
- [05:49]
Mike Pesca
Yes, but contemporary press accounts at the time.
- [05:51]
Plo Koon
Look, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Jabba says what other huts are afraid to say. I mean, he's a businessman.
- [05:57]
Mike Pesca
Well, his critics would say he's a gangster.
- [05:58]
Marumaru
That's just because that's not fair.
- [06:00]
Mike Pesca
Hold on, hold on. One at a time. Kaufman.
- [06:02]
Plo Koon
Go ahead.
- [06:02]
Marumaru
Well, it's just like all the reports, that Jabba has a pet Sarlacc that inhabited the Great Pit of Carcoon that slowly dissects his enemies every year. It's just not true.
- [06:11]
Mike Pesca
Well, Marumaru here says it is true that he's seen the Sarlacc. But why then, Marumaru, have you said that you're undecided that you might actually vote for Jabba?
- [06:23]
Marumaru
I agree. Whatever you think of Jabba, he's authentic. More authentic than his opponent? I mean, Princess Leia? I don't know. She just acts like she's better than Jabba.
- [06:31]
Mike Pesca
Well, she is a Jedi and a princess. And the youngest ever member of the Galactic Senate.
- [06:36]
Marumaru
Don't give me that. She's a member of the Galactic Senate. Look at Alderaan. I think she's far too trusting.
- [06:42]
Mike Pesca
Well, her defenders would say that she was tortured while a prisoner of the Death Star.
- [06:46]
IG-88
I like princesses who weren't captured.
- [06:48]
Mike Pesca
Okay, okay, okay. Back to you, Maru. Maru, what's your reason for not backing hacking Princess Leia? Okay, yes, understood. Let us. We actually have that clip. Let's play what he's talking about.
- [07:00]
Marumaru
Will somebody get this big walking carpet
- [07:01]
Mike Pesca
out of my way? It's still smart, huh?
- [07:05]
IG-88
But she's apologized for that. And I Think if you play one clip and ignore all she's done her whole life in a pro Wookiee context, Fighting for Wookiees, fighting side by side for Wookiees. She's much stronger on Wookiee policy than Jabba.
- [07:17]
Mike Pesca
Okay, okay, but then why are you IG88? Why are you still undecided about voting for her?
- [07:23]
IG-88
I don't know. I'm an assassination droid. And there's just been so much less work for us. And as much as I do not like some of the things that Jabba has said about Princess Leia or some barges he shackled her to, I just think that the jobs could be going away and not coming back. I just want someone, anyone, to kill. I don't want to get retrained to program irrigation systems or to work a protocol desk. Those jobs pay a lot less. Nobody gets killed. And I think Jabba's the one who understands that threat.
- [07:48]
Mike Pesca
Okay, now, Koth, Milan, I want to turn to you. I need to bring you into this conversation. I take it you're a Bothan.
- [07:53]
Marumaru
That's right.
- [07:53]
Mike Pesca
Okay. And given all that Jabba has said about Bothans, that you're all spies, that you've got to be kept out of certain systems.
- [08:00]
Marumaru
Well, he's also said, not all Bothins, but listen, I'm a third generation Coruscant. I consider myself Coruscantian first, then Bothan. And like Plo was saying, Jabba says things that no one else was saying.
- [08:14]
Mike Pesca
Okay, Plo Koon, what do you think about that?
- [08:16]
Plo Koon
Well, I think it's interesting, but deep down, you know, I'm just gonna be honest. I think she's a spy. She's a both in spy. You're a spy.
- [08:23]
Mike Pesca
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- [12:27]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
For a small business owner, every day is full of surprises. Some great, some not so great. Like when a client cancels their order at the last minute. But here's a surprise you will like. Progressive provides small business owners with 30 customizable coverage options to help keep their business going strong. So go ahead, surprise yourself. Get a quote in as little as 8 minutes@progressive commercial.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates and third party insurers. Coverage is not available in all states or for all vehicles and coverage selections
- [13:00]
Mike Pesca
Eric Lichblaw's American Reich A Murder in Orange County Neo Nazis and the New Age of Hate is a nesting doll of ugliness. It tells the story of a murder, zooms out to give you the context of what led the murderer to commit his cr, and then zooms out even further to talk about our society and the soup that all this hate is swimming in. Welcome to the Gist, Eric.
- [13:24]
Eric Lichblau
Thanks for having me.
- [13:26]
Mike Pesca
Let's talk about the murder itself, the instigating incident that you talk about in your book in Orange County. Who was the victim? Who was the perpetrator? How they know each other?
- [13:38]
Eric Lichblau
Yeah, the victim was a young man by the name of Blaze Bernstein who was in Ivy League, student at Penn University, who had his whole life ahead of him. He was a sophomore at Penn looking to go to medical school. Promising young poet who was home on winter break in Orange County, California and on an off chance was reconnecting with one of his old high school classmates. Not really a friend, barely an acquaintance. A kid by the name of Sam Woodward who was really the black sheep of his high school classmate. A kid who was kind of a brood, including Loner, who was the kid who everyone was worried might kind of go off one of these days. Not a lot of friends. He had a Confederate flag hanging in his room at home. He was known as being a bit of a homophobe into right wing causes. Not the kind of kid who Blaise Bernstein thought might reconnect with him when he was back on winter break, to be honest. But there he was on his Instagram account and Blaze was a little curious why Sam was reconnecting, connecting with him, and they met up on a winner's night in Orange County. And Sam was curious enough to see why Sam was reconnecting. Blaze was curious enough to see why Sam was wanting to reconnect with him. As it turns out, Sam was well down the path towards neo Nazism.
- [15:10]
Mike Pesca
Right. And Sam had before this, this was a couple years after they graduated, he had been trolling gay people online. He had been harassing at a remove. And he wanted to and did put in action a plan to take it into real life. We should also say that the high school they went to was the Orange County School of the Arts. So it's kind of maybe an inversion of, I don't know, the classic who is the outsider and who is, who is the accepted member of this. The school firmament blazed it well in the high school. Whereas Sam, because he was a homophobe and because he had a father who ranted against gays and because he embraced Confederate. See, at least there and was fascinated by Hitler, was definitely the black sheep. Now, was this a conscious. Yeah, was this a conscious catfishing? Was he trying to get Blaze in a romantic entanglement?
- [16:04]
Eric Lichblau
Actually, at that first meeting, it certainly seems that way, yeah. That Sam had gone down this road several times before reconnecting with Blaze Bernstein. He connected with gays online. He had actually gone out a few times with, with gays. He, he wrote in his, what he called his, his journal of being enthralled by scaring the heck out of them, even quote, unquote, heat criming them. He seemed to be thrilled by the idea of scaring the bejesus out of them and in the idea of luring them down this path of making them think that he himself was gay and then sort of scaring the daylights out of them. And in Sam's case, when he met up with Blaze, he took it even several steps further. In this park in the dead of night in Orange county, right by the school where Blaze had gone to elementary school. And it ended in this fatal encounter when Blaze went missing for eight days and Sam was the last person to have seen him alive. It led to this all hands on deck, search for Blaze Bernstein. And no one knew what had happened to him. So this was obviously for his family a terrifying ordeal to discover what had happened to their son. And it led down this path of Sam's escalation into full on neo Nazi, down the road to a hate camp in Texas, as it were, where he had gone from not just online radical radicalization, but he had visited a hate camp in Texas where they had done target shooting and hand to Hand combat with Stars of David as target practice. He had met with this elder statesman from in his 70s, a man by the name of James Mason, who would talk to them and preach hatred about coming race wars, basically the bible of neo Nazism. And, and Sam had gone full on into neo Nazi hell just weeks before this fateful meeting with, with Blaze Bernstein, with his old high school classmate and
- [18:27]
Mike Pesca
I want to get to Mason in a second, but yeah, Bernstein was stabbed to death by Woodward. The crime was prosecuted as a hate crime.
- [18:35]
Eric Lichblau
It was, yes.
- [18:36]
Mike Pesca
But at trial it was almost entirely an anti gay hate crime. Was that because the evidence of it, an anti Semitic motivation, wasn't as strong. What's your assessment of that?
- [18:49]
Eric Lichblau
There was evidence of both, certainly of Sam's hatred of both gays and Jews, but there was significantly more leaning towards his hatred of gays. And there was reams and reams of evidence on his phone, on his laptop, out of his own mouth of his hatred towards both groups, but significantly more towards gays. And in fact his defense attorney, Sam's defense, Street, tried to show that he might be a closeted gay in sort
- [19:20]
Mike Pesca
of a Hail Mary gay panic defense which really went nowhere and didn't have great. Didn't have great evidence.
- [19:26]
Eric Lichblau
Went nowhere. Yeah. His father was clearly homophobic and was worried that when he sent him to this artsy school in Orange county that he himself would turn out gay in his own words. And Sam insisted, no, no, no, I'm not gay. I never, never thought about that for a second. He insisted that that was not a defense, even as a defensive law. Throw that out there and we may never know the answer to that was in fact a closeted self loathing gay. We may never know. And the jury, the jury certainly rejected that defense. But so, so he was in fact, as you say, convicted solely of the hatred of gays being the, the animus for the, for the murder.
- [20:08]
Mike Pesca
So he was convicted. So he was convicted. Life without parole. But now I want to.
- [20:12]
Eric Lichblau
Possibility of parole. Yes. Right.
- [20:14]
Mike Pesca
So this wasn't a case. And your book goes, takes strides to show that this wasn't a case of a lone wolf or someone radicalized by, you know, a hateful father. Although we should note that his mother was a family therapist, which raises a lot of questions about what her clients must have thought. But he was part of a group called the Atomwaffen Division which was operating in Orange County. We should also note that Orange county itself. You want to zoom out further? John Birch Society traces its origins to there. It was once very Republican like legitimately Republican, but also very white and very, at times they had sunset laws. So not a welcoming place for certainly gays, black people. But then quite perniciously, the Adam Waffen division began operating in the area. Tell me about them and Sam Woodward's relationship with them.
- [21:08]
Eric Lichblau
Yeah, Adam often started in Florida, migrated to Texas, to Idaho, to Arizona, to California and Orange County. Literally means atom bomb in German. It was very violent. They like to blow things up and link to at least five murders and many, many other plots, foil plots by the FBI. There are about 25, 30 guys in prison now and James Mason is one of their gurus. This is a man who was an outc, James Mason, from neo Nazi circles for a long time in the 1990s and early 2000s, because he'd been convicted of child porn charges which were seen as taboo in some circles. And he was also buddies with Charles Manson, which was also seen as a bridge too far. But then he had this amazing renaissance, just the last 10 or 15 years, when young men, usually teenagers, men in their early, early mid-20s, these guys in Atomwaffen, other groups like the Base and the Order, rediscovered his writings, his racist writings in a book that he put together back in the 80s called the siege, which started out as a newsletter on our carbon copy about how horrible Jews and blacks and others were. And they rediscovered his writings and made it essential reading. You know, Reid's siege went viral on many of these groups websites and he, he came back into fashion. And people like Sam Woodward would travel from all around the country to Denver, where he, where he now lives. I went to interview him myself several times. And it was like a Mecca, a pilgrimage to go see James Mason. And he would tell them, well, don't commit violence. You know, I don't condone violence, of course, with a wink and a nod. But he would say, if you are gonna right, if you are gonna commit violence, you got to go big. Go big, kill 20 or 30 people. So when, so when Blaze Bernstein was so tragically killed, he considered that a waste by someone like Sam Woodward because only one, one gay Jew was killed and it wasn't worth a one for one swap, in his view. That was, that was his horrible message. His horrible lesson out of that was it wasn't worth one. Victim needed to go big. That's his horrible takeaway.
- [23:29]
Mike Pesca
And how does he live? What was it like visiting section 8
- [23:33]
Eric Lichblau
housing not far from the capital in Denver, in a, in a sort of squalor, in a, in a two bedroom apartment, dank, dark apartment that Is no other way to describe it a shrine to Nazism. He has all sorts of artifacts he's collected over the years to Hitler, to the Nazi regime, with artifacts, with grenades, with Nazi helmets. He has an American Nazi party uniform that he keeps in a trunk. He has pictures, of course, galore, of Hitler, of Eichmann, of others. He has old Magazines from the 1960s of the original Nazi party. He worked under George Lincoln Rockwell, who was one of the original founders in Arlington, Virginia, the American Nazi Party.
- [24:24]
Mike Pesca
Okay, so when you go to his house, does it read more as a museum of Nazism or a Collier's apartment? Just a ramshackle.
- [24:32]
Eric Lichblau
It's a museum, very orderly, manicured. He has his own books there, lots of copies of books. He has his own, his own heroes. He used to have, he told me like five times as much stuff back when he lived in southern Ohio. That's how he and Manson first connected. Because when Manson was in, was in prison, they both came from southern Ohio, so they became fast pen pals.
- [25:01]
Mike Pesca
Given his prominence and his influence, why is he so poor?
- [25:04]
Eric Lichblau
He claims he doesn't want any money from the success, the horrible success of Siege, of his book. He does it for the enlightenment in his work of passing on the truth of his message. So he eats at a soup kitchen and collects Social Security. He worked as a guard at Kmart and passes on his horrible truth and wisdom to these young sycophants.
- [25:35]
Mike Pesca
So The Trump and J.D. vance aspects of this are they certainly countenance Nazi ideology. They haven't spoken too harshly about the Proud Boys or other Nazi or far right wing affiliated groups who support them. You talk, you talk a lot about what they haven't done. And we all know what they have said. They're perhaps merely mouthed non denounced denunciations of these factions. And we also know that the factions take great succor and pride in the President sometimes saying stand back, stand down and stand by. Or you know, Right, right. Or whatever.
- [26:16]
Eric Lichblau
For instance, quoting the dog, the dog eating Haitians and the cat eating Haitians, which was quoting originally a neo Nazi group in Ohio. What a lot of people don't realize about that incident during the 24 campaign was that that was a debunk myth that started with of a neo Nazi group which was thrilled beyond the pale to have the president of all people. After the President started talking about the dog eating, they said, can you believe it? The President is talking about this. That's what real power looks like. That was what they said in their encrypted chats. They couldn't believe that J.D. vance of Ohio and Trump were repeating their debunked myths about, debunked about cat eating Haitians. That's the kind of influence that Trump has given them.
- [27:06]
Mike Pesca
This was Blood Tribe. Right? I looked into this. It seems like the myths predated Blood Tribe and Blood Tribe jumped on and tried to accelerate them. Yeah, yeah. But the Wall Street Journal and other news outlets found the woman who start first started talking about either pets being eaten. Then there was a rumor that got out of hand about a duck in a pond being eaten. So Blood Tribe then jumped in. They're also being sued. I don't know where that case stands. But in early 25 they were being prosecuted by local officials for doing Neo Nazi marches and such. But they were taking, they were experiencing a lot of glee and taking a lot of credit for this.
- [27:49]
Eric Lichblau
And Trump in turn ran with what the Neo Nazis. It sees that. Yes, right.
- [27:56]
Mike Pesca
But my question is I think we risk. I don't know, maybe you don't risk, but I worry about attributing to the Neo Nazis phenomenon that would have existed but for them. And you know, it's obvious that James Mason was influential and inspired a lot of killings. But on the other hand, I also see Neo Nazis as dangerous. Not particularly pervasive all throughout the country, but certainly dangerous, worth keeping an eye on. They will kill a few people every year, a few dozen in the worst years. But if we say that everything that the Neo Nazis high five each other about, I don't know, we give over too much power to them, don't we?
- [28:43]
Eric Lichblau
There is that risk. I mean certainly there's a, you know, a sensational aspect which just by the mere mention of Neo Nazis, you know, and that it carries this enormous historical power. So sure, there is that risk, but the reality is that in the last 10 years especially their prominence and their power has risen enormously. I mean, you look at the worst hate crimes of the last 10 years and almost without exception they were all carried out by self avowed Neo Nazis. You look at Buffalo and the horrible massacre of the blacks there. You look at the El Paso, the worst massacre of Hispanics ever in the United States at the El Paso Walmart. You look at South Carolina, which before Buffalo was the worst modern massacre of blacks. You look at obviously the tree of life in Pittsburgh and on and on and on. These were all carried out by basically card carrying Neo Nazis, not coincidentally, all with AR15s. I mean that's not, that's not some mythical status of Neo Nazis, those are real neo Nazis. We're not, we're not ascribing some power to them that they didn't already claim themselves with the benefit of high powered rifles.
- [30:18]
Mike Pesca
Right. On the other hand, all true. On the other hand, with rented pickup trucks and cars, there have been deadly attacks on New York City bike path in the name of Islam, lone wolf ISIS adherence. The New Orleans, that was, that killed eight. The New Orleans car attack killed as many people or more people than every incident you mentioned, I think, except El Paso. And so my point isn't to at all minimize the threat, but to compare them and the threat. But the Islamic threat was taken seriously by the FBI. It has diminished. It still goes on. I remember there was a time when there was a great widespread panic about that threat and I don't know how much that served us in trying to address the threat. I don't think that there is a panic about neo Nazis. Probably what you find out from your book tour is that people don't even realize how much it has spread. But I don't think they're that different. I don't think that the number of people who have been killed is that different. And I don't think the general threat is that different. Although there is, you know, suspicion around someone who's Islamic in a way that it wouldn't accrue to just a white guy. But do you think the threat is very different or very much more dangerous from neo Nazis than it was from radical Islamists?
- [31:51]
Eric Lichblau
Well, I think it engaged that from the way the FBI began to change its response beginning at around 2018, 2019, as, as the threat changed. I mean, after 2001 there was an enormous shift because of the Islamic response, because of the Islamic threat. There we saw the entire apparatus of, of the national security defense just do a complete 180 for obvious reasons after the enormous impact of 9 11. So I'm not minimizing the Islamic threat which continues today from some quarters overseas as well as in the US but the neo Nazi threat is probably as strong as ever, especially when it comes to anti Semitic threats.
- [32:46]
Mike Pesca
Right. Of the statistics, the FBI hate crime statistics from 2015-24 show high teens or in the 20s of hate crime murder victims a year. The exception is 2019 when there was that terrible El Paso shooting. So I just have to emphasize that I really am not diminishing any of this. I want an FBI that is on top of this just like they were on top of, of when ISIS was the threat. And then there's Also the question or challenge of this is what we're seeing now. But now that neo Nazism far right extremism is getting mainstreamed as a laugh and now that Nick Fuentes is you know, one of the top radio online podcast presence and they just laugh about this and there is no social sanction for engaging in it. It in a way that any of our other threats, I mean that certainly could never happen with Muslim extremism. I can't imagine. Yeah, there are far lefty podcasts that are popular. I can't imagine like real chuckling about violence and antifa. The violence that they do perpetuate would be very popular. Yeah, there's always the specter of more of it happening. And like you say, there's this guy, this godfather, this intellectual figure who's inspiring neo Nazis just out there operating with
- [34:12]
Eric Lichblau
a little museum apartment, Colorado. Yeah, you know, hate speech, hate speech leads directly to, to hate crimes. I mean that's, that's well established. So there are things being said, you know, out loud that never would have been allowed before. So these hate groups, you know, if they want to plan direct attacks, okay, they still go to gab and to telegram and to other encrypted sites if they need to. But to slur groups openly, they can now do that, do that on the web freely and without any penalty whatsoever.
- [34:52]
Mike Pesca
So there have been crests and waves and you talk about 65 year cycles, just about where right wing or white extremism increases. What makes it decrease historically?
- [35:07]
Eric Lichblau
Well, you need political leaders and community leaders to push back.
- [35:12]
Mike Pesca
Eric Lichblau is the author of American Reich A Murder in Orange County. Neo Nazis and the New Age of Hate. Thank you very much.
- [35:20]
Eric Lichblau
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
- [35:24]
Plo Koon
Foreign.
- [35:29]
Mike Pesca
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All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States in the state wherein they reside. So that's The Constitution, the 14th amendment of the United States. And if you take away this objective clause, the end subject, subjective clause having the word subject in it to the jurisdiction thereof, it does say all persons born in the US Are citizens. So it comes down to what does subject to the jurisdiction thereof. And for many, many years, there was no question what that meant. In 1898, there was a case, US vs Wong Kim Ark. And Mr. Kim Ark won that round. He was a citizen because he was born in the United States. It wasn't even much debate. Sometimes in conservative circles they would say, well, we think subject to the jurisdiction there are of shouldn't have to mean immigrants. But finally, after an executive order, the Supreme Court weighed in and the majority said, Donald Trump, you're wrong. Your executive order is wrong. If you're born here, you're a citizen. It's weird and interesting how it broke down. So it was, and you will hear it is a 6:3 decision. But among the six, so it was the three liberal justices, Amy Coney Barrett and Chief Justice Roberts. But then joining them was Justice Kavanaugh. Although you could read Kavanaugh's ruling as saying, well, I don't know if that's what the Constitution means. I think that if Congress wanted to get really clear, they could pass an amendment and maybe just undoing this constitutional amendment, they could in fact deny citizenship to those born here. And then there's Neil Gorsuch who joined those fun to Alito not retiring as per NPR's report. See my theory on that. If you saw that NPR reported that Alito was retiring, Nina Totenberg saw that Mrs. Alito was waving a surrender flag, went with it. But it turned out she was just doing her sheets anyway. Gorsuch combined with the fun two of Alito and Thomas and Gorsuch, well, he was in the three, right? He said, no, if you were born here, you're not a citizen. But other than didn't actually say that he wanted to make clear in his dissent is that he would. And who is he? He didn't write the Constitution, but he would deny birthright citizenship to children of temporary visitors. But if you're an illegal immigrant who lived here Permanently. He'd be so inclined, should this come up again, to say, no, you're a citizen. All very interesting. Is it very, very disturbing that two justices are dead set against interpreting birthright citizenship in the way it's always been interpreted? In the way that everyone except Donald Trump and his executive order and a few people on not going to say the far right, but definitely in conservative circles where late night bong hit bullshit sessions would say, hey, what if jurisdiction thereof means something totally different? It is a little disturbing, but, you know, not so disturbing as to actually change the law. I think we get by if we have two justices out of nine on the Supreme Court who are out of touch. Out of nine out of touch. If you go back and there was an amicus brief in this which had all the history and you don't always get this on every issue. Well, what were they thinking? They debated it in Congress. They debated the text of the 14th Amendment. And in that debate, Senator Edgar Cowan of Pennsylvania, California objected to giving birthright citizenship to children of non white immigrants. Here's how he defined it. He asked if a gypsy born in Pennsylvania would become a citizen. He didn't want that. And he said that California was at risk of being, quote, overrun by a flood of immigration from the Mongol race. And then he looked to the senator from California, John Connis, who he thought would share his opinion because, you know, he's from California, but he's actually from Ireland. And back there in 1866, Connors said, and this is what carried the day and this is what the Senate passed. He said the children of all parentage, whatever born in California need to be citizens, including, and he addressed it Chinese, who he called Mongolian parentage. So not, not Mongol, but the Mongolians. By the way, it's very interesting how the greatest progressives of past eras would be definitely drummed out of progressive organizations today if they just were consistent in their verbiage. So I don't think there was much question. Alito and Thomas certainly did. Alito will presumably not be retiring. I mean, that would be funny if he actually did want to retire, but actually wants to make NPR look bad so much that he delays his retirement announcement. I don't know, I just go by the flags. Whatever Mrs. Alito hoists up the flagpole, someone will salute. But not so on this executive order. In the case of Trump v. Barbara, not Walters, not Boxer, not Eden, although he would, I'm certainly dream of Jeannie in his own way. In the case of Trump v. Barbara, Trump is the loser and the score is a kind of hard to tally six to three. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the gist. Kathleen Sykes does the gist list. Jeff Craig is our how to producer, also consults on various other matters. Ben Astaire has been booking our show. And Michelle Pesca is in charge of animal husbandry at Just World Headquarters in Peru. G Peru de Peru. And thanks for listening.