Podcast Summary: The Gist – Episode "Escaping the Nazis. Then Going Back"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Gist
• Host/Author: Peach Fish Productions
• Description: For thirty minutes each day, Mike Pesca challenges himself and his audience in a responsibly provocative style, moving beyond rigidity and dogma. The Gist is surprising, reasonable, and willing to critique the left, the right, either party, or any idea.
• Episode: Escaping the Nazis. Then Going Back
• Release Date: June 30, 2025

1. A Shifting Republican Landscape: The Decline of Trump’s Influence

The episode opens with Mike Pesca delving into the evolving dynamics within the Republican Party, highlighting a growing disillusionment among citizens and elected officials alike toward Donald Trump’s agenda.

Key Points:

• Public Disapproval of Trump: Recent polls indicate that Trump has a 6% higher disapproval rating than approval, reflecting widespread dissatisfaction with his policies on immigration crackdowns, tariff wars, and inflation.

• Republican Politicians Turning Away: Former Republicans like Don Bacon and Thom Tillis are distancing themselves from Trump. Bacon criticized Trump’s appeasement with Russia and announced he won’t seek re-election, while Tillis opposed the "big beautiful bill," citing its negative impact on North Carolinians through Medicaid cuts and destructive energy provisions.

Notable Quote:

Thom Tillis [02:43]: “...another reason why we should go back to the House, Mark, and get Medicaid right... I have to vote against the bill from my own party that I have never parted from before because we're rushing to an arbitrary deadline with people who have never worked a day in this industry.”

Insights:

• Party Purges and Loss of Future: The purging of moderate voices like Kinzinger, Cheney, Meyer, and others indicates that opposing Trump within the GOP may lead to the political ostracization of those dissenting voices.

• Thom Tillis’s Departure: Tillis’s decision not to seek re-election underscores the challenges faced by Republicans who wish to oppose Trump’s influence, suggesting a diminishing space for moderate or anti-Trump factions within the party.

2. Daniel Kelman on "The Director": Navigating Morality in Art Under Nazi Influence

A significant portion of the episode features an in-depth conversation with Daniel Kelman, author of the novel "The Director," which explores the life of G.W. Pabst, a renowned German director who fled the Nazis only to return to Austria during their regime.

Key Points:

• Author’s Background: Kelman’s personal history, with his father being both a victim of the Nazis and a film director, inspired his deep dive into the complexities of Pabst’s life and choices.

• Pabst’s Dilemma: The novel portrays Pabst’s struggle between artistic freedom and moral compromise. Despite his initial resistance, Pabst finds himself making films under Nazi Germany’s regime, where he ironically experiences more artistic freedom than in Hollywood.

• Ethical Compromises in Art: Kelman delves into the moral challenges artists face when their work intersects with oppressive regimes, questioning whether the pursuit of greatness in art can justify ethical transgressions.

Notable Quotes:

Daniel Kelman [17:25]: “...he has to make these accommodations every day. Because that's what a totalitarian state does, forces you to make compromises every single day.”

Daniel Kelman [21:37]: “...most art fails or it doesn't become as great as the maker hopes it will be. And then the question is also, what if you fail? Then you have been a terrible person and your art is not that impressive.”

Insights:

• Historical Context and Personal Connection: Kelman’s exploration of Pabst’s return to Nazi Austria is enriched by his personal connection to the subject, providing a nuanced perspective on the interplay between personal ethics and professional obligations.

• Artistic Freedom vs. Moral Integrity: The discussion highlights the tension between artistic expression and ethical responsibility, especially under authoritarian regimes. Kelman questions whether compromising moral standards for the sake of art is ever justifiable.

• Legacy and Accountability: The conversation touches on how society grapples with appreciating artistic works created under morally dubious circumstances, referencing figures like Fritz Lang and drawing parallels to contemporary issues of moral accountability in art and leadership.

3. International Law and Modern Warfare: A Dialogue with Ben Wittes

In another segment, Mike Pesca engages with Ben Wittes, Editor-in-Chief of Lawfare and Senior Fellow at Brookings, to discuss the complexities of international law in the context of modern warfare, specifically focusing on the use of drones by the Haitian government against criminal gangs.

Key Points:

• Use of Drones in Haiti: Haiti’s government employs drones to combat gangs led by figures like Barbecue. This raises questions about the legality of such actions under international law, particularly regarding non-state actors and command structures.

• Critique of International Law Scholarship: Wittes expresses skepticism towards current interpretations of the law of armed conflict, suggesting that much of the scholarship is ideologically driven and ineffective in addressing contemporary challenges.

• Historical Context of International Law: Wittes references the Anti-Balloon Warfare Convention of the late 19th century, illustrating how certain international laws have remained relevant by influencing modern military practices, such as the prohibition of lighter-than-air bomb-dropping aircraft.

Notable Quotes:

Ben Wittes [30:14]: “...I did defend the moral propriety of the use of drones back when it was really unpopular and I was overwhelmingly outvoted by the students of Oxford.”

Ben Wittes [35:01]: “...we should start with a healthy suspicion of a lot of international law scholarship in this area.”

Ben Wittes [36:12]: “...International law is a super, super complicated animal. You got to distinguish between public international law and private international law...”

Insights:

• Drones and Legal Ambiguities: The conversation underscores the grey areas in international law concerning the use of drones in internal conflicts, especially against non-state actors without clear command structures.

• Effectiveness of International Law: Wittes argues that while international law governs daily interactions like trade and aviation effectively, its application in warfare, particularly with modern technology like drones, is fraught with challenges and often fails to keep pace with technological advancements.

• Historical Lessons: By referencing historical conventions, Wittes illustrates that international law has mechanisms that can remain effective over time, but their applicability depends on mutual interests and the practical enforceability of such laws.

4. Conclusion

Mike Pesca's episode "Escaping the Nazis. Then Going Back" weaves together a critical analysis of current political shifts within the Republican Party, a profound literary discussion on the moral complexities faced by artists under oppressive regimes, and an insightful examination of the challenges international law faces in regulating modern warfare technologies. Through engaging conversations and thought-provoking insights, the episode encourages listeners to reflect on the intersections of politics, ethics, and law in both historical and contemporary contexts.

Notable Final Quote:

Ben Wittes [36:49]: “...we do not use balloons or lighter than air aircraft to drop bombs because we are still to this day party to the Balloon Warfare Convention.”

Takeaway: The episode emphasizes the enduring impact of historical decisions on present-day practices and the importance of continuously evaluating and adapting ethical and legal frameworks to address emerging challenges.