The Gist

Episode: Fareed Zakaria on Revolutions, Backlashes, and the High Cost of Not Fixing Immigration

Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Fareed Zakaria (CNN’s GPS, author of Age of Revolutions)

Overview

In this incisive interview, Mike Pesca and Fareed Zakaria discuss Zakaria’s book, Age of Revolutions, analyzing periods of sweeping historical transformation and the resulting backlashes. Their conversation delves into parallels between past and present technological and cultural upheavals, the role of populism, and especially the political impacts of immigration. With references to current U.S. and global politics, Zakaria argues that our challenges—and populist reactions—are inextricably tied to the scale and speed of recent change, with immigration as the most combustible issue. Throughout, both host and guest probe whether our institutions are robust enough to steer the current moment toward constructive progress.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Are We Living in an “Age of Revolutions”? (09:56–15:22)

• Zakaria’s Thesis: “What are the broadest changes? You know, when, when do you feel like the whole world is being upended?” (11:37)
  • Fareed maps three main eras of economic/technological revolutions:
    • First Industrial Revolution (~1760s): Steam engine, mass urban migration
    • Second Industrial Revolution (~1870s–80s): Electricity, trains, telegraph, social/political upheaval
    • Present: Globalization, information/AI revolution, 3B+ joining world economy, dramatic transformation in women’s roles
• Pesca’s Pushback: “When wasn’t there an age of revolution?” (11:02)
  • Points out prior eras (e.g., 60s decolonization) were also transformative.
• Zakaria’s Response: Agrees but stresses periods of global, structural transformation are rare—and today’s changes measure up.
  • “If you look at artificial intelligence and then you add to it robotics and... the Internet, these are pretty seismic changes.” (16:11)
  • “We’re the boiled frogs and we both know it's a metaphor—the frog will jump out...” (18:15)

2. Historical Patterns: From Populism to Progressivism? (18:15–22:34)

• Populist Backlash: Zakaria draws parallels between backlash to past revolutions and today’s populism (e.g., William Jennings Bryan’s era).
• Potential for Progress: “How you navigate the backlash is what determines where you will end up.” (19:08)
  • Recent U.S. elections: Democrats won by running “stable, commonsensical, centrist candidates... not viewed as culturally alien elitists.” (20:33)
  • Bill Clinton’s advice: “They may agree with you, but they can’t hear you because all they’re noticing is all this cultural stuff.” (21:24)
  • Example: Mamdani’s (NY) disciplined focus on economic affordability trumped potential culture war distractions.

3. Strength and Fragility of American Institutions (22:49–27:06)

• Norms vs. Laws: Many aspects of American democracy depend on unwritten norms.
  • Examples:
    • Attorney General’s independence (post-Nixon tradition)
    • Pardon power (once sparingly used, now “a pay to play scheme”)
  • “Trump has destroyed all this. Trump has really exposed that all of this was just norms.” (24:32)
  • Most dispiriting: “About 40% of the country just doesn’t care. They support him no matter what. Any claim you make is regarded as biased and suspicious…” (26:21)
• Media Fragmentation: Rise of silos/substacks/fragmented truths.
  • Zakaria: “The technology fragmented the... culture; it fragmented news... So we have to deal with the reality we’re in. I don’t want to rebuild gatekeepers, but I do want to rebuild truth.” (27:45)
  • Orwell reference: “The most pernicious part of the 1984 world... the collapsed distinction between truth and falsehood.” (29:25)

4. What Fuels Modern Populism? Economic vs. Cultural Drivers (33:11–34:51)

• Pesca Questions Economic Explanations:
  • Notes U.S. economic growth outpaces Europe, yet America is more politically fractured.
  • Suggests tech/media-driven pessimism exacerbates division.
• Zakaria’s Take: “The economic explanation doesn’t hold water... the prism through which we view the economy... is culture and class.” (33:12)
  • Evidence: Right-wing populism is rising even in countries with less inequality (Sweden, Denmark, France).
  • “What you notice almost everywhere, the rocket fuel is immigration... It’s this sense of ‘my world is going away and those people are to blame for it.’” (34:44)

5. Immigration: Political Consequences and Global Comparisons (34:51–42:14)

• Immigration as Populist Catalyst:
  • Zakaria: “Look at the one advanced industrial society that has almost no right wing populism... Japan... They don’t have immigration.” (36:34)
  • “What elected Trump 2.0?... If Joe Biden had not completely mismanaged immigration... I don’t know that Trump would have been able to win. That is the single issue on which the Democrats exposed themselves.” (36:58)
  • Robert Kaplan’s demographic insight: “At the beginning of the 21st century... one African for every European. At the end... seven Africans for every European. And the Mediterranean isn’t that big.”
• Solutions require control and development:
  • “First... you have to find a way to control your borders. Otherwise... you don’t have a country.” (37:59)
  • “The larger answer... you have to help these societies develop...” (39:09)
  • “The funny thing is... net Mexican migration into the United States is zero.” (39:17)

6. American Xenophobia: Ingrained or Malleable? (39:47–42:14)

• Pesca asks: Is there an irreducible human xenophobia that limits immigration acceptance? (39:55)
• Zakaria’s Personal Experience: “I have found Americans to be incredibly open... America is special... people are more interested in your destination than your origins.” (40:27)
  • Acknowledges current backlash, but expresses hope: “I wouldn’t count out the possibility that... America will have shown the world you can genuinely create a multiracial, multiethnic democracy.” (41:27)

7. Trump, Immigration Policy, and the Democratic Path Forward (42:52–46:24)

• Pesca: Is Trump’s hardline immigration stance a political winner? (43:45)
• Zakaria’s Analysis:
  • “I don’t trust the opinion polls... I think the public is broadly speaking with him on immigration.” (43:58)
  • The left shouldn’t stake its ground on the defense of illegal immigration—focus on legal, productive immigration instead.
  • Trump’s crackdown on legal/tech/academic immigration is damaging: “The source of American innovation has been our amazing university system... That ecosystem Trump is very significantly damaging. And to me, that makes no sense.” (45:36)
  • “Democrats should be talking about how we can reform it so it's a win-win for the American people... Don’t focus on people who most people think... broke the law... I don’t think that's a winning issue.” (46:08)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Attribution | |-----------|-------|-------------| | 11:37 | “When, when do you feel like the whole world is being upended? Because those are the periods when you have the most consequential reactions and that's when you have the most consequential backlash.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 16:11 | “If you look at artificial intelligence... robotics... the Internet, these are pretty seismic changes.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 20:33 | “You run stable, centrist, commonsensical candidates who are able to talk the Democrats winning message... and are not viewed as culturally alien elitists.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 21:24 | “They may agree with you, but they can't hear you because all they're noticing is all this cultural stuff.” | Bill Clinton (as quoted by Zakaria) | | 24:32 | “Trump has destroyed all this. Trump has really exposed that all of this was just norms.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 26:21 | “About 40% of the country just doesn't care. They support him no matter what... We're not actually living in the same political universe.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 27:45 | “I don't want to rebuild gatekeepers, but I do want to rebuild truth.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 29:25 | “The most pernicious part of the 1984 world that Orwell describes is this collapsed distinction between truth and falsehood.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 33:12 | “The economic explanation doesn't hold water... The prism through which we view the economy increasingly is culture and class.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 34:44 | “...the rocket fuel is immigration. And what is that? It's sort of culture class much more than anything else. It's this sense of my world is going away and those people are to blame for it.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 37:59 | “First of all, you have to find a way to control your borders. Otherwise... you don't have a country.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 40:27 | “I have found Americans to be incredibly open. I am, in my experience, never felt discriminated against, never felt like I was being treated in a way that was mean spirited.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 41:27 | “I wouldn't count out the possibility that, you know, we will still move forward and 25 years from now... you can genuinely create a multiracial, multi ethnic democracy where everyone feels like they have a place.” | Fareed Zakaria | | 45:36 | “The source of American innovation has been our amazing university system... That ecosystem Trump is very significantly damaging. And to me that makes no sense.” | Fareed Zakaria |

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening and Interview Set-up: 00:00–09:56
• Revolutions Now and Then: 09:56–15:22
• Backlash and Progress: 15:22–22:34
• Norms, Institutions, and Fragmentation: 22:49–29:51
• Modern Populism—Culture vs. Economics: 33:11–34:51
• Immigration as Populism’s Rocket Fuel: 34:51–42:14
• Human Nature and Xenophobia: 39:47–42:14
• Trump’s Immigration Approach & Future Strategies: 42:52–46:24
• Closing Remarks: 46:24–46:56

Tone

Reflective, historically informed, and at times wryly humorous. Both Pesca and Zakaria balance analytic rigor with real-world examples and a sense of urgent concern over the future of American society and democracy. The episode is conversational, probing, and blends accessible scholarship with practical political insight.

This summary captures all major themes, arguments, and notable exchanges, allowing listeners to grasp the episode’s substance and flow without the need to listen to the recording.