Finding Political Kryptonite with Paula Poundstone

Summary

The Gist — “Finding Political Kryptonite with Paula Poundstone”
Original Release: May 9, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca (guesting on Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone with Paula Poundstone & Adam Felber)

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Episode Overview

In this special “Saturday Show,” Mike Pesca shares his appearance on “Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone.” The core theme revolves around a persistent question in today’s politics: What, if anything, could serve as Donald Trump’s political “kryptonite”? Paula, frustrated by the seeming invincibility of Trump in the court of public opinion, peppers Pesca with ideas and scenarios, earnestly (and humorously) searching for that one disqualifying issue or scandal that might finally cut through his support.

The discussion is anchored in political realism, with Pesca stressing that procedural violations, legal technicalities, or even large-scale governmental dysfunction rarely resonate as “kryptonite” with regular voters. The hosts weigh whether outrage over things like ICE overreach, roundtables replacing subpoena-powered hearings, the Epstein files, or massive federal debt could finally tip the scales. Throughout, tone oscillates between joke-laden exasperation and genuine concern for democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Kryptonite”: The Futility of the Search

• Paula opens the discussion by lamenting that Donald Trump’s authoritarian behaviors (“walk toward the makeup tray of cosmetic democracy to powder, blot, and spray on their authoritarian regime”) somehow never become toxic enough to voters ([05:34]).
• Pesca sets the terms: For all the focus on process and legal violation, these issues rarely stick with or motivate voters ([08:34], [09:43]).

“If you understand process more than your opponent, you’ll probably win. It’s just that you can never expect the voter to act on or activate on process.” — Mike Pesca ([08:34])

2. ICE Overreach & Constitutional Rights—A Non-Starter?

• Poundstone asks if ICE breaking into homes without warrants could be ‘kryptonite’ ([08:19]).
• Pesca says no: Most people don’t know or care about the Fourth Amendment details; unless there’s obvious, egregious martyrdom (as in, a clear victim that shocks the conscience), these excesses rarely move the political needle ([09:43]).

“Because it’s so processy, I don’t think among the ICE excesses it’s even going to be in the top four of what people vote against.” — Mike Pesca ([09:43])

3. Process Arguments Are Meaningless—& The “Kibitzing” Roundtable

• Paula brings up the issue of roundtables replacing formal committee hearings, eliminating subpoenas and oaths ([13:00]).
• Pesca dismisses it as too abstract: Voters don’t relate to abstractions about oversight; “It’s like a House committee on kibitzing” ([14:20]).
• Comedic riff: The “roundtable” becomes a running joke—a home for academics and semi-public radio guests with “throw pillows and a lava lamp” ([14:34]).

“I just don’t think that’s the thing that’s going to get people marching in the streets.” — Mike Pesca ([13:19])

4. The Epstein Files & “Soft Spots”

• Paula pivots to the Epstein files and Melania’s reaction to alleged photos, wondering if this hits closer to home for Trump supporters ([16:46]).
• Pesca identifies it as an actual threat: Scandals involving the Epstein case are “potential soft spots,” especially because they have bipartisan potential to cut through apathy—even among Trump’s own base ([28:30]).

“That 5% [who care about the Epstein files], probably 3% or...60% of the 5% is a Trump voter or a Republican voter to begin with. So that’s why it’s especially caustic for him.” — Mike Pesca ([29:34])

5. Media, Cancel Culture & The FCC

• Paula asks about FCC Chair Brendan Carr’s attempts to punish Trump-unfriendly uses of broadcast power ([22:40]).
• Pesca’s take: Carr tries to “jawbone” networks into compliance but lacks the follow-through or public favor to succeed; even Trump knows canceling comedians like Jimmy Kimmel would look bad ([22:47]).
• Funny aside: Carr’s threats to media are compared to “prop bricks...from when the Kool-Aid man burst through the wall” ([25:21]).

6. Federal Debt, Deficit, and War: Too Big to Grasp?

• Paula bemoans gigantic spending and lost sense of scale: “Numbers are becoming meaningless to me, Mike, and I wonder if they are to the rest of the country” ([32:21]).
• Pesca explains: Voters don’t care until debt servicing (“paying the interest”) crowds out tangible priorities ([34:12]), but even this rarely translates into immediate political pain unless “one day, boom” and a reckoning is forced ([34:32]).
• Felber notes: Complaints about deficit and debt are always loudest when the opposition is out of power ([34:12]).

7. Voter Impact—What Might Actually Matter

• Pesca’s conclusion: The only “kryptonite” is reality. When Trump’s policies—especially the war in Iran and unmet promises to lower prices—directly and obviously impact enough voters, that moves the needle. Losing his “strengths” (the economy, tough immigration stance) will be his undoing ([37:04], [39:01]).

“What Trump is doing will turn the voters so away from him that this midterm election is going to be a very large Democratic wave.” — Mike Pesca ([39:01])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On ICE process arguments:
  “People who follow [politics] understand the importance of process...But you can never expect the voter to act on or activate on process.”
  — Mike Pesca ([08:34])

• On oversight by roundtable:
  “Let’s shoot the bull. It’s oversight, but it’s far under the regular oversight. It’s like a kibbutz. It’s like a House committee on kibitzing.”
  — Mike Pesca ([14:20])

• On the futility of many “gotchas”:
  “Maybe they think...some tenured person who could talk about the history of tables...Maybe that would play better. I don’t know if the roundness of the table is actually the thing, but if it is, it has a greater possibility of being kryptonite.”
  — Mike Pesca ([15:56])

• On the Epstein files:
  “There’s something really bad in there... He’s not acting like a guy who has nothing to hide.”
  — Mike Pesca ([29:35])

• Paula’s exasperation:
  “You guys have no faith in the American people. I just think...it’s worse than not having the hearings. Because what they do is they’ll pretend that...look, the person talked. They came in and they talked and we listened. But it’s all going to be lies. And the truth is, people still lie under oath sometimes, but a lot of times they don’t because you can go to jail for it if they catch you at it.”
  — Paula Poundstone ([15:01])

• On public fatigue with scandal:
  “Debt is all the money that we all owed added together from the yearly deficit where we come short by design for the amount we want to spend and the amount we have to spend and no one cares. No one.”
  — Mike Pesca ([34:03])

• Comic moments:
  “Roundtables are very public radio, aren’t they? A lot of the public radio shows are a roundtable, and we know how ratings on that are. So...maybe it’s designed to repel the public.”
  — Mike Pesca ([15:56])

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Important Timestamps

• [05:34] — Opening anxiety: Paula’s urgent worries about Trump’s authoritarian drift.
• [08:19–09:51] — Is ICE overreach a dealbreaker for voters?
• [13:00–14:53] — The roundtable hearings farce and why it doesn’t cut through.
• [16:46–17:47] — The Epstein files & the Melania photo denial.
• [22:40–25:50] — The FCC’s failed culture war against comedians.
• [28:30–29:42] — Why the Epstein files actually matter, potentially even with Trump’s base.
• [32:21–34:12] — Paula’s lament: numbers become meaningless in war, debt, and spending.
• [37:04–39:01] — Final thoughts: Only hard reality, not process or scandal, will matter to voters.

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Takeaway

This episode is a wry, frustrated, and ultimately hard-nosed look at the hope—and probable futility—of stumbling upon a political “kryptonite” that will decisively turn Trump supporters against him. Pesca’s message? It’s almost never the scandals insiders obsess over. Voters respond to changes in their own lives, not abstract outrages or legal process. The search for political kryptonite continues, but the only proven substance is lived experience and clear, concrete failure—and in a contentious campaign year, even that might be a high bar.

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(Summary by The Gist Podcast Summarizer, preserving wit and candor in the spirit of the hosts.)

Transcript

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[Mike Pesca]

Hi, it's Mike. It's Saturday. It's the Saturday show and I'm going to play an appearance that I made on Paula Poundstone's podcast, which is called Nobody listens to Paula Poundstone. Adam Felber is the other extremely talented voice on that podcast. I am the third somewhat talented voice. Paula is very committed to politics, not really politics, you know, as sport, as hobby. She's a passionate person. She wants the world to get better. So the conceit of I do appreciate a good conceit is she bounced off of me some ideas for making Donald Trump anathema to voters. What's his kryptonite? And it was great because we didn't even discuss it explicitly. But the whole point is like, none of these things are going to work. None of these in the weeds pointing out how he violated this court order or that international agreement. Paul is great. She's been great for a long, long time. Her three minute videos are really funny and I hope you'll enjoy and also give lie to the premise that nobody listens to Paula Poundstone. So lately I've been getting a little,

[Quince Brand Representative]

I guess the word is intentional about my wardrobe.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, you want to look good,

[Quince Brand Representative]

but you want to be comfortable.

[Mike Pesca]

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[Mike Pesca]

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[Mike Pesca]

And you're benefiting me.

[Quince Brand Representative]

I'm benefiting to the tune of the ultra stretch 24.7 smart chinos. It is good that these aren't 24.6chinos, you know, and I can't wear them Tuesdays.

[Mike Pesca]

I could wear them every day.

[Quince Brand Representative]

I'd like to wear them every day.

[Mike Pesca]

It's like I'm getting away with something

[Quince Brand Representative]

because to the outsider they look like,

[Mike Pesca]

I'll say dress pants to use that broad category.

[Quince Brand Representative]

But to the inside or me inside

[Mike Pesca]

the pants, they are stretchy and comfortable and you know, they don't feel like

[Quince Brand Representative]

those hard, stiff, uncomfortable, starchy dress pants.

[Mike Pesca]

They're fantastic.

[Quince Brand Representative]

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[Mike Pesca]

that talks about everything we're going through in our democracy through a constitutional lens is the Oath in the Office. I've been on it. I listened to it. It's hosted by bonafide constitutional scholar Corey Brettschneider. Past just guest and SiriusXM host John Fugal saying here's a tip. Future Gist guest and the show, which always ranks in Apple's top five in government, has featured guests like Senator Sheldon Whitehouse and journalist Dahlia Lithwick and Justice Stephen Breyer and me, Mike Pesca in that company. Smart, accessible, focused on power. Listen to the Oath in the office

[Quince Brand Representative]

wherever you get your podcast.

[Mike Pesca]

Also on YouTube with full video episodes every.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

And we're back. Thank you House Band Nobody Jody Rose Crump on the Slide whistle. This is our first slide whistle Hunt House Band ever. And wow.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

So that's I'll never get married. And I won't. But if I did this slide whistle right here. Jody Rose Crump's slide whistle would be the only instrument I would have at my wedding.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

That's beautiful, Paula. What else is up with you? You look pensive, concerned. Your brows are knitted.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Adam, Donald Trump is a full blown authoritarian and we need to bring that to every voter's att, every chance we get. And those who have chosen not to vote in the past need to hear us singing out danger and shoulder their voting responsibility. But what will stop this administration's relentless walking dead march towards the makeup tray of cosmetic democracy to powder, blot and spray on their authoritarian regime? What will bring them down? What will be their kryptonite? I could sure use someone in the know to talk to about it. Maybe a journalist with a lot of experience. That'd be helpful. I'll never get to though. Not on this smear campaign of a podcast.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

I hate to contradict you, Paula Poundstone, but that aforementioned set of criteria. Experienced journalist who might know the kryptonite. Lots of experience. We have that sort of guest right here.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Well, that's a coincidence. Heated, stirred and heated again.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Yes, it's reheated. He is an award winning journalist and podcast host whose work spans public radio, print and television. He has guests hosted NPR's All Things Considered and Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. And his reporting has been featured on this American Life, Radio Lab and Planet Money. He's appeared on MSNBC, CNN, Real Time with Bill Maher and PBS NewsHour and his writing has appeared in the Washington Post, the Atlantic, the Free Press, the Guardian and many other publications. He's also the creator and host of the Gist, which is awesome. And it is the longest running daily news podcast in the history of podcast. He's the moderator of Not Even Mad, a political debate podcast, and host of Funny youy Mention, a co production with the Comedy Seller wherein he conducts in depth interviews with stand up comedians. I'm out of breath. It's time for our guests to take over. Please welcome back returning champion Mike Pesca.

[Quince Brand Representative]

Thanks for having me.

[Mike Pesca]

And a bad news for the intro. I also host How To. I've taken over a show called How To. It's now called how to with Mike Pesca. Be weird if it was called that before I took it over, but there it is. How to manage your anger. How to ghost Bust. That was a good one. How to talk to Cats. That was an episode. These are some, some of the things I'm doing.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Wow, sorry I missed that plug. Mike, welcome.

[Mike Pesca]

Thank you. And I also have been Learning green sleeves on slide whistle for Paula's wedding.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Oh, thank you. Will you do Sunrise Sunset? Mike?

[Quince Brand Representative]

Such a tear always brings a tear.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

It does.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Mike. Mike.

[Mike Pesca]

Now we're talking to cats. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Hey, Mike.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Telling ICE to ignore the Fourth Amendment and break into people's homes without a warrant, that seemed big to me, but they're still pushing for it to be, what is it codified? Is there a way to make it kryptonite?

[Mike Pesca]

That one? I think not, because people maybe barely know the First Amendment, and then they get to the Fourth and, like, is that billeting of soldiers? So I think the idea that you don't want ICE to go into people's homes, this is. This is a pretty standard idea in US Juris jurisprudence, but I don't think it's going to be the thing that becomes kryptonite. Because a rule that I have with politics is that people who follow it understand the importance of process. And in fact, if you understand process more than your opponent, you'll probably win. It's just that you can never expect the voter to act on or activate on process. And that's more a process argument. You know, how did you get into the home? Was it a writ decreed by a justice of the peace or someone actually working for the federal government? Which is, by the way, how they do it. They say, oh, someone else from DHS said it was okay for ICE was also for DHS to go inside a home. And there's this standard rule that someone outside the process has to okay it. Anyway, you and I agree that this ain't a good thing.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

And.

[Mike Pesca]

But because it's so processy, I don't think among the ICE excesses, it's even going to be in the top four of what people vote against.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

I got to agree with you, because to a lot of people, that just sounds like one of those technicalities that those squirrely lawyers, the evil ones on the TV shows, use to get criminals to walk in the streets.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Okay, but you don't think that people fearing that someone will do that to them or to, you know, or to rip them out of their cars or their neighbors or their daughters or. Or their sons? You don't think that would be, you know, might make people, you know, kind of stop in their tracks and go, wait a minute, this isn't okay.

[Mike Pesca]

I think maybe for the neighbors, it happening to the neighbors. But look, this is. This is not going to be that inspirational. But I have a whole analysis of White ice did become a kryptonite for Trump and Why I had to really change everything he did. And it wasn't because of all the good points made about process. It wasn't even about the good points made in the Los Angeles protests. It was one thing. And this is going to be a murder. Yes, it was the martyrdom of pretty and good. And if they hadn't essentially given their lives for this cause, the cause itself would have caused. Would have turned off some people. That's what the polling was showing. But once that happens and once it becomes that stark, that did change a lot of minds. But you don't want to say something short of murder, something short of martyrdom can get people to change their minds. But I think that is somewhat where we are on the issue of immigration, which is a pretty good issue for Trump because he more or less delivered what he promised. He didn't do it. Just like everything else, he didn't do it in the right way. And there are promises broken. But the people who are really motivated to, you know, crack down on immigration did get a return on what they were looking for, as opposed to some of the other things we're going to talk about, which was just a, you know, sheer lie and abdication of what he promised.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Well, a lot of this has been a lie and an abdication, too. This was, you know, this was baby with the bathwater time, because he was saying how precision it was going to be and it wasn't. All right, what about this, Mike? And by the way, I find that as we're discussing this idea of what will bring these people down, that if there's something that won't, I find myself blaming you mentally. Maybe that's not right.

[Mike Pesca]

Not.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

I don't think that's the right approach, Paula. I feel like just because he knows about it doesn't make him complicit.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, maybe that's not the right dynamic. I don't know.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Not on a podcast.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Now, I've been a little bit off because, you know, 30 years ago, I was the entertainment at the White House Correspondents Dinner. And so that was a really close call for me.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

That does not in any way constitute a close call, Paula.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Close call. Had I Ben at that. If had I been on that floor above where they were 30 years ago, or had I waited there for 30 years, I could. I might not even be here right now. So what a lucky break for all of us.

[Mike Pesca]

Some of your punchlines are slow burns, but maybe not that slow.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Yeah. And even if it is that slow, you shouldn't hang around and wait for the reaction that long.

[Mike Pesca]

That's right.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

What. What do you think about pushing. Pushing for Commerce Committee's hearings to recommence and shining a light on this asinine subpoena less oathless roundtables? I mean, we have to be loud about that anyway. But will it be kryptonite?

[Mike Pesca]

Well, if going into someone's home and someone saying, I don't want that to happen to me, if. That I dismissed is somewhat of a process argument, if you're going to say it can happen to you, you might get subpoenaed to a coma roundtable, I do think that that won't find purchase in the. Of even freedom loving Americans. I went to the Springsteen show the other day and he talked about a lot of the things you were talking about. And he sang Streets of Minneapolis, this protest song, and he sang his old protest song, 41 shots. But you know, the coma roundtables, it's hard to rhyme with roundtable, I'll give you that. I just don't think that that's the thing that's going to get people marching in the streets.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Okay, but it's not okay. People have to understand what the roundtables are, which is it's basically saying we're not going to continue the hearings. That's what it's saying. Because they're not here either. Going to let people volunteer to come in instead of subpoena them. And then when they're there, they're not under oath. Which is exactly what Pam Bondi was trying to do.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Yeah. It was just like a. Let's. Let's shoot the bull. It's oversight, but it's far under the regular oversight. It's like a kibbutz. It's like a House committee on kibitzing.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

I hope there's coffee.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah. There's going to be throw pillows and a lava lamp. That's what I think.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

And donut holes for everybody.

[Mike Pesca]

Can you talk if you don't have the conch? I don't know the rules.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

It's a roundtable.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

It would be so good if they

[Mike Pesca]

went with a conch.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

They have to have the talking pillow for Breaking Bad. All right, so you don't think that's going to. That the fact.

[Mike Pesca]

Don't think. I don't think we're. We're on the precipice of roundtables being the thing that breaks through.

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No.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Okay.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Once again, I'm going to side with Mr. Pesca here. I would agree with.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, you guys. You guys have no faith in The. In the American people. I just think, yes, it's. It's sort of. It's worse than not having the hearings. Because what they do is they'll pretend that. And Ghislaine Maxwell will go to one of these. Because what they're going to do is they're going to pretend that, look, the person talked. They came in and they talked and we listened. But it's all going to be lies. And the truth is, people still lie under oath sometimes, but a lot of times they don't because you can go to jail for it if they catch you at it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, there is exposure, I guess. The roundtables will have less whispering to your lawyer and your lawyer whispering back. I mean, just let her rip. If there's no swearing in, if there's no praise.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Now you're making it sound fun, right?

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mazda Advertiser]

Right.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Now it can be. It's almost like an improv thing. You can. Yes. And also the last person who spoke.

[Mike Pesca]

Roundtables are very public radio, aren't they? A lot of the public radio shows are a roundtable, and we know how ratings on that are. So I don't know, maybe it's designed to repel the public. Maybe they. Maybe they think that, I don't know, a professor from Carnegie Mellon is going to show up. Or maybe they think that, you know, some tenured person who could talk about the history of tables. Maybe it was a breakfast nook, a comber nook at an angle. Maybe that would play better. I don't know if the roundness of the table is actually the thing, but if it is, it has a greater

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

possibility of being kryptonite or comer in cars with witnesses. They can do that.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Yeah, that'd be a great vidcast. One of my things you're striking out here.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, I am. I'm frustrated for two.

[Mike Pesca]

It's over two, she's.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

I blame you both.

[Mike Pesca]

Foul some off here. I know.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Are the Epstein files kryptonite? Because Melania says the pictures are fake. So she has spoken.

[Mike Pesca]

I'm glad she came out. I'm glad she came out when she did to make that important point about her.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

I guess now she was in sort of a 40s Nazi dress. Just. If anybody was paying attention.

[Mike Pesca]

That was one of the helmets, right? I don't know what that helmet, you know, the. Who is the Nazi designer, was it Helmet?

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Helmut Cole?

[Mike Pesca]

No, Helmut Cole was the former chancellor of Germany, but he designed some.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Some decent policy, I believe.

[Mike Pesca]

Helm Helmut Kohl was the largest, the most adipose of all the leaders of the world. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

So he had some heft to him.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Some ballast, some gravitas. I think that. Oh, and I would trust Melania. Melania was on a hot streak, just nailing him left and right. And then she comes out and criticizes Jimmy Kimmel for a joke that uses a time machine to instantiate an assassination.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Those time machine jokes are the worst. They really get you that way.

[Mike Pesca]

Think about timing. Let's assess the joke, because I don't think the fcc, which maybe we'll get to. We'll take it away. I think it was a pretty good joke. I don't think it had to do with assassination. Assassination at all. It's just a play on words, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Hey, look.

[Mike Pesca]

But look.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

James Comey was just arrested for his little joke about 86 and 47.

[Mike Pesca]

He used diner slang. I don't know that. That's against the law.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Do we know. So if everyone knows what this is. He put up. He put some seashells on the beach, and it spelled out 86.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

He said they were. I think. Weren't they just there when he walked by?

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

He was on a walk.

[Mike Pesca]

So he's a documentarian. Right.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

I can't really see James Comey, you know, down on his hands and knees making, you know, sand art on the beach.

[Mike Pesca]

But it is true. Yes. There's a long distance from there to the beach. So he puts 86. Was it 47 at the time? Yeah. And this is supposed. This is interpreted by Cash Patel, who is an expert at these things, as not just get rid of the president, which is what we're talking about, but literally kill the president. And I think we all know if you want to make what is called a true threat under the law, you do it in two ways. One via seashell, two via diner slang. So 86 is killed and he did. Yes.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Kind of a slam dunk of a case.

[Mike Pesca]

What if the next seashell spelled out, you know, was Adam and Eve on a raft? Reckham, which I think is scrambled eggs on toast. Drag it through the garden.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, yeah. It's funny because I was trying quickly to remember the slang, and I couldn't, other than in the weeds that I remember.

[Mike Pesca]

I'd go into diners and I say, give me a whiskey Tommy Jack. And one out of three knows that I want a grill, a grilled cheese with cheddar on rye. Now, do I want that, or do I just like saying Whiskey Tommy Jack?

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

I don't know the latter hundred percent. I know, grilled cheddar with tomato on

[Mike Pesca]

rye is a delicious dish.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Does sound good, but I feel like you just like saying it. Well, we've identified some soft spots and we're gonna get all stabby with them when we come back.

[Mike Pesca]

And we'll be back in a minute with more of me and Paula and Adam. So lately I've been getting a little,

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[Mike Pesca]

All right, back to the nobody listens to Paula Poundstone podcast.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Fun fact. There are two places in the universe where time slows down and nearly stops. One is right next to a black hole. The Other is Denny's.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, wow.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

That slide whistle means we must be back. And we are back with Mike Pesca. Paula.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

All right, Mike, what is Brendan Carr up to? Fcc. What is he? Chairman, head boss? What is he?

[Mike Pesca]

Boss man? Yeah, he's the chair of the fcc. And this is a guy who, I'm going to say he is actually a smart guy. I have, I have a long time ago, I guess you would say, interviewed him, talked to him, but he does not have follow, intellectual follow through. His theories of the case don't quite work. So what he's doing is threatening, vaguely threatening or sometimes specifically threatening broadcast outlets that say things that he thinks President Trump doesn't like. But I have an analog. We're just talking about Kimmel. I have an analysis of that one which is right now he's on. He's trying to get Kimmel canceled or fired. I know they're against cancel culture unless it comes for Kimmel. But the last time he did the same thing with Jimmy Kimmel, making a joke that he purposefully misrepresented. And I think that this was one of those that did break through. This wasn't process, this was nightly entertainment. And I haven't seen any polling. I would just think 90 something percent of people who saw that Kimmel joke said, what are you doing? And the proof is that Donald Trump, who is not an idiot when it comes to entertainment and what the public wants from its entertainers, even he said, we got to pull back because we'll look really bad, really petty if we actually forced Jimmy Kimmel off the air. So I think Carr bungled that one. Now, I mean, more important but less paid attention to things, he's allowing a merger of two large station groups to go through, and that's not good. And he's always using his bully pulpit to jawbone, which is a technical term under the law and not just something we do with the Passover Seder. But he's using it to jawbone and you know, trying to get, get broadcasters to not do his bidding but say his bidding. But so far it's not working.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

What do you mean get broadcasters to say his bidding?

[Mike Pesca]

Well, he is saying, I'm not going to punish you. This was one of his tactics. But it would be a shame if something nice happened to your network or we do have the full power of the federal government behind me and I just might use it. So you could argue, oh, he's not really bringing to bear a case, he's just jawboning. But the thing is, were he to try to pursue a case, as we saw, with a lot of prosecutions in the doj, including Comey, the first one, not the great seashell case of 26, they fall apart. So he tries to say, we're going to come down like a ton of bricks on you. But then when you examine the bricks, there are those, you know, prop bricks from when they're foam.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

From when the Kool Aid man burst through the wall. Yeah, they're those bricks.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

But let me ask, isn't there some. And I know we live in a post legal society at this point, but isn't there some risk of. Of having lawsuits against the government when. When you're jawboning in such a way that creates an intimidating atmosphere?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. I mean, atmosphere of intimidation.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

I mean, it's.

[Mike Pesca]

I'm sure, yes, Disney, I'm sure if. Yes, the ABC and all, and everyone else that he's tried to jawbone. They don't like it.

[Quince Brand Representative]

Right?

[Mike Pesca]

They don't like it. They'd rather not have to deal with the jawboning. I'm not minimizing it. I'm just more assessing how good he is at this. And it doesn't seem like he's that good at it.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

It.

[Mike Pesca]

There is one guy in government who looks like Brandon Carr who is good. There's, I think maybe only one guy in the Trump administration who is actually good at his job. Right. And his job's not being good or moral. And that's Vote Russell. Vote. Who was the guy who is basically the architect of Project 25. Right, right. And he was a guy who kept his eyes on the ball, who didn't like to do press, who only cared about the intricate workings of government. And he did a lot of destruction because he was thinking about it for a long time. He wasn't doing interviews based on how intimidating his stuff was. He was just trying to get it done. And how much. Some of the Trump administration people like press. Brendan Carr likes press, Stephen Miller likes press. All these guys from ice, they think they're helping themselves because Donald Trump thinks through the television. But. Right.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

He sees their. He hears their name. So.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. But also he sees how stupid they are at times. Like, nothing turns off Donald Trump. A guy who thinks, I'm excellent at tv. Nothing turns him off more than seeing car bungling and Kristi Noem bungling. And he can't take it. Whereas Russell Vogt was not doing any tv. He was just trying to keep medication out of the mouths of 1 0,000 kids with AIDS in Africa.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Yeah. Which is a noble calling.

[Mike Pesca]

Doing the more.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

No, the guy sleeps under my pillow every night. Just has no trouble at all. I understand for the Comey case, they're going to get she from the seashore.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Who sells, who sold those shells to Comey?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, they're getting it at the source.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

She's going to be one of the witnesses.

[Mike Pesca]

Wait, are they using him? Are they flipping him to the to get to the big fish? She.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Yeah, they want she.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah. I'm excited about that case.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Well, they hate pronouns too, so.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. What if she's pronouns were they?

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, they sell.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

That will really piss them off.

[Mike Pesca]

That's right. That's how we solve nursery rhymes.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Also, they sell seashells.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

They sell rhymes so nicely with Seychelles. So you can go in a whole different direction with that.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, their plan is to have Seychelles underwater. By the time the case comes to it comes to court, it looks like

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

they're going to be ready for that.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

What, what about Marjorie Taylor Greene? I'm not going to go camping with her. But is her insider view effective, do you think?

[Mike Pesca]

I think it's related to the Epstein files. And I do think that those are real potential soft spots for him because they cut through and Marjorie Taylor Greene shows that a tried and true, I'm not even going to say conservative, but a once MAGA loyalist cares so much about the Epstein files that, you know, she's willing to break with him and he's willing to break with her. And I think there are a lot of people who would. I never. I don't care about ice, I don't care about the fourth Amendment, I don't care about roundtables, but they do care about the Epstein files. And the thing about it is they're not all Democrat or left leaning people to begin with. And that's the thing. Even if the Epstein files are listed as, I don't know, the most important or One of the three most important issues to 5% of the voters, that 5%, probably 3% or you know, 60% of the 5% is a Trump voter or a Republican voter to begin with. So that's one of the reasons why it's especially caustic for his, for him also there's a possibility, you know, there's something really bad in there.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Oh, you think is there?

[Mike Pesca]

He's, he's not acting like if you game play it out. Is he acting like a guy who has nothing to hide?

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

No, no, he is not acting that way.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Oh no. But if you bring it up, you're what does he say? Horrible. You're horrible. You're a disgrace.

[Mike Pesca]

I knew you'd say that because you're a horrible person. Like when Norah o' Donnell asked him, well, the gun. I did it.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Donald literally just quoted the gunman who was trying to kill Trump.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

And Trump's response was, that is off. You're awful for bringing that up.

[Mike Pesca]

I knew you'd say it. Why? Because it's a necessary question for a journalist to ask. There was a moment there where she fluttered her eyes. They were. It was a cut to her, and I think it was purposeful. And she was saying as much as anyone could ever say without saying it. I can't believe I have to put up with this bullshit. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

It was very obvious on her face.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

You know what? I think everything else in that interview was horrible. I think that she platformed him, didn't push back once. Maybe she said one thing. Maybe. But how about I'm exonerated? How about who exonerated you? How do you see that exoneration have taken place? But there was just nothing. He did all of his. Trump, he did his greatest hits, and she never once stopped him.

[Mike Pesca]

But think about that. Even if she platformed him, what did he do with the platform? The one clip that everyone is playing is. You're a horrible person for asking this question.

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It's true.

[Mike Pesca]

About the gun. Horrible.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Horrible.

[Mike Pesca]

I don't like the word gun.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Is the.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you like gunman?

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Especially since he didn't shoot anybody.

[Mike Pesca]

No, he might not be this. He might be a gunman. As in holding it.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, yeah. No, he's a gun toter. He's a gun and knife toter. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Oh, I like toter. Totor's fun to say. And Springsteen can rhyme that with something.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, he's a. He's a gun toter. And a knife rack.

[Mike Pesca]

For your undecided voter, I give you the gun toter.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

He wasn't.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

He wasn't wielding the knives either, was he? He just had them. He just. So they were just. It was like a. It was just a.

[Mike Pesca]

He wasn't wielding. There was no branch.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Wielding is a very specific definition. Even more specific than gunman, which could mean a lot of things.

[Mike Pesca]

Brandishing is a big one. I got one for you. This was described inaccurately all the time. The exchange of gunfire perhaps diminishing the potential caustic effect once gunfire is exchanged. Like. Like a trading post. How. What is the means of the exchange of gunfire?

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

It sounds way more civil than gunplay is.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, gunplay Gunplay is really bad. That's just where you spit it on your finger.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

You have to kiss the person it points to.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Numbers are becoming meaningless to me, Mike, and I wonder if they are to the rest of the country. I do a three minute video every night talking to Trump, and during that three minutes, the United States spends $297,616.05 on the illegal war with Iran. And how much has Trump added to the debt or deficit? I can't remember which. Tell me which is which, by the way, but I forget the numbers. My point is the numbers are so large to have, you know, like, I no longer, it's beyond my cash register. I no longer have a way of calculating or understanding it. Will that ever get through the leotard on this man of steel or has he just normalized these ridiculous expenditures that are putting us in deficit or debt, whichever one for the rest of, you know, our grandchildren's lives?

[Mike Pesca]

Well, Paula, I can affirm, I can confirm that you have lost all sense of numbers because I watched those three minute videos and I have to tell you, they go on for 27 minutes. I don't know if you know this. You sometimes stop to forget to hit stop and it's just you crying for the next 27. I mean, it's great.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

I love, I watch those all the way to the end.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Well, I guess I think the editor is maybe up on the chopping block at this point. There's good, there's going to be gunplay between me and the editor.

[Mike Pesca]

Debt is all the money that we all owed added together from the yearly deficit where we come short by design for the amount we want to spend and the amount we have to spend and no one cares. No one.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

So the deficit is for the year and the debt is forever.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, the debt is forever. Just like, just like diamonds. The debt is forever and it's large.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

To me, debt and deficit have been gigantic talking points ever since the Reagan administration. And it's the, usually to me, my feeling is that it's the party out of power that says that this is out of control and it's an emergency and we have to act on it now. And it's the party in power that spends unbelievable amounts of money.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, that's true. But at some point, one of those parties is going to be correct. And I believe that point was about three years ago. So one of the things about the debt is we have to service the debt, which means you got to pay it off, like with your credit card. And there was a Time when interest rates were really low where the debt was pretty much free. And so you could spend on a worthy project and say it's just the cost of the project. But now, I don't know if you knew this, Adam. We spend more on servicing the debt than we do on. You can pick anything other than Social Security. We spend more on the military. You might not want to spend a lot on the military, but if the military was once the go to of this enormous thing that we spend on, now we just spend on servicing the debt, which is nothing. Which is literally nothing. And at least a million getting nothing for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's really bad. It's never been. It's never been close to this big. And there are a lot of things that you can think about where they've been complaining about this forever, and then one day it hits for about 10 years. You know, if you followed international policy circles, you could say they've been complaining about this Osama bin Laden guy forever. And they were. And then one day, boom. So, yeah, I think this is. I think this is something to address.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Anyway, we're there now. Okay, cool.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I think that it is constricting what we can. Our ambitions on what we can actually pay for, though a war in Iran, which is costing about $1 billion a day. I can't argue for that, given what it's getting as the greatest of expenditures. You know, I can't say that that's the way. If we didn't have this debt to service, we could, I don't know, fire. Well, I was going to say we could fire some more Tomahawk missiles, except we're almost out, which is another thing. This is a war. We really are flattening them. We, you know, we spend $2 million on a missile to shoot down a. A $10,000 drone. And it's a good exchange. You don't want the drone to hit anyone. But, you know, in terms of math.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Yeah, well, it's not his strength, really. You know how he does percentages? Let Bobby explain it.

[Mike Pesca]

Did you notice, by the way, when. When it came time for him to talk about the percentages of presidents who are assassinated, he was pretty accurate. When it came time for him to talk about percentages of drug prices or something he doesn't care about, he invents numbers. Yeah.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

Oh, yeah. Two hundreds of percent off.

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

At the White House, they have a different way of calculating percentages. All right, Mike, what do you think will get through to the voter and. Or stop Trump?

[Mike Pesca]

This is the absolute optimistic conclusion to a series of pessimistic assessments. Me essentially saying not going to get through. What's getting through is what just what Trump is doing, just his actual policies coming to fruition or in some cases not, and how they register with the public. So there are two things. One is he did say I'm not going to do wars that are unnecessary and he did a war that's really unpopular. And then he did say I'm going to bring down prices and it'd be hard for anyone to bring down prices. But he didn't do it. Not only did he not do it, if you're grading him very on a curve, if you were grading him with a lot of kindness in your heart saying it's, you know, can a president really bring down prices and egg prices are lower?

[Podcast Host Paula Poundstone]

Not sure that they can. Can they?

[Mike Pesca]

Speaker 1 It's very hard. And the things they do, the levers that they have, I'll give you an example. Trump, when egg prices were really high, said we're going to import more eggs. And so he imported something like 4 billion eggs. And we've never imported that many eggs before. And arguably that could and did bring down egg prices. Have you been to the store lately? Eggs are at my store and I live in the very expensive hamlet of Brooklyn. Eggs are 99 cents a dozen. So now all the farmers are going to get wiped out the poultry, as if they called. Right. The avian flu has come for the farmers. So what I'm saying is, you know, there are tradeoffs. You could draw from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to bring down gas prices. By the way, that wasn't filled for three years before a war with a petroleum producing country. Not very smart.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

That almost showed a lack of foresight.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, a little bit. Just like, just like the scared of what's in the Epstein files indicates.

[Podcast Host Adam Felber]

But you know, I do want to highlight that because you know we always say and we're always right that like presidents can't really affect gas prices. But, but Trump has proved us wrong, hasn't he? That's one thing that he really did directly affect.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I guess people don't even think to say presidents can't affect gas prices unless if they really want to make them spike. I mean everyone could burn down the house. I guess they could burn down some refineries too. So yeah, the prices thing they're going to the regular voter is going to hang around his neck because it was a clear promise and their life isn't getting better. I think the ICE thing has ebbed a little bit, but it did not play well. And the important thing there from up analysis, a political analysis, is he always thought it was his big strength. And so even if it's not as much as a horrible millstone as Paula, you'd like the American people to respond to, it's definitely a weakness. And when that was your big strength and it turns to weakness, economy was once, once his big strength, it's turned to weakness. Just I wouldn't say sit back. I'd say do news conferences and support correct policies. But what Trump is doing will turn the voters so away from him that this midterm election is going to be a very large Democratic wave. And that's it for today's show. Cory War produces the gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the gist list. Ben Astaire is our booking producer, and Jeff Craig runs our socials. Michelle Pesca overseas. Use it all benevolently and thanks for listening.

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