Funny You Should Mention: Jena Friedman

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Gist – "Funny You Should Mention: Jena Friedman"

Date: March 6, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Jena Friedman, stand-up comedian and writer

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Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging, deeply engaging, and often darkly funny conversation between Mike Pesca and Jena Friedman. They discuss the evolution of Jena's comedy, especially her approach to political and sensitive topics like abortion and the death penalty, the challenges of doing subversive or controversial comedy in today's media landscape, and her new stand-up special "Motherfucker," which centers on personal grief and motherhood. The dialogue is flavored by honest reflections, acerbic wit, and thoughtful analysis of both the craft of comedy and the social issues it tackles.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Comedy About Difficult Things: Abortion Material and the Changing Landscape

(06:35–14:57)

• Jena’s Experience with Abortion Jokes:
  • Tells abortion jokes but notes how much harder it’s become post-Dobbs and how the “funny” has drained as reality has become bleaker.
  • Quote: “The best thing about abortion jokes is that no one tries to steal them. They're like the unwanted children of jokes.” – Jena, [07:17]
  • Mike and Jena develop an extended airplane analogy: Abortion jokes used to be “like airplane jokes,” but now “if the airplane started crashing, then the jokes would get less funny,” which lands with both humor and a sense of tragedy.
• News Media and Social Algorithms:
  • Jena: “They're on my algorithm. Yeah, they're maybe not in your algorithm.” – [10:49]
  • Discusses how coverage of post-Dobbs abortion stories has diminished or is hidden from some mainstream news consumers.
• Impact of Legal Changes:
  • Jena reflects on how the reality of abortion restrictions has made the topic less abstract and more tragic, challenging her comedic approach.
  • Touches on the idea that, as restrictions become real, comedy veers from observational to something heavier and more personal.

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2. Navigating the Personal and the Political in Comedy

(14:11–23:03)

• Early Standup and Controversy:
  • Jena recalls being wrongly accused of joke theft early in her career about a “sex offender” bit, and how this shaped her resilience.
  • Quote: “If you can handle that, then you can handle anything that comes after.” – Jena, [18:37]
• The Critic's Eye:
  • She talks about how critical reviews can be based on personal bias and the shift away from heavy-handed gatekeeping in comedy.
  • Notable moment: How her satirical “Refugee Girls Review” was panned in Chicago but celebrated in New York–highlighting cultural differences in comedy reception.
• Motivation for Difficult Subjects:
  • Jena finds herself drawn to “digging her own grave” by focusing on heavy material, citing her work on Borat and crime shows as examples.
  • Quote: “That's kind of what that challenge is, what I enjoy. It's totally swimming upstream.” – Jena, [14:11]

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3. True Crime, Empathy, and Ambivalence

(23:10–35:31)

• Discussing Her True Crime Series “Indefensible”:
  • Mike praises Jena's balanced, nuanced approach on the show, especially on the controversial death penalty episode, which she made while pregnant and dealing with her mother’s terminal illness.
  • Quote: “If you're anti-death penalty, take comfort in the fact that nothing's happened in your life that has moved you to the other side.” – Jena, [26:03]
• On Empathy and Complication:
  • Jena describes developing greater empathy for death penalty advocates after talking to a victim’s parent.
  • Explores the difficulty and necessity of bringing nuance (even ambivalence) to controversial topics.
  • Quote from Jena: “My views are not fixed ever...It gave me more empathy for people who want the death penalty.” – [30:07]

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4. The Tightening Media Climate and Risks in Satirical Comedy

(35:28–38:37)

• Risk Aversion in Entertainment:
  • Jena discusses the reduction in platforms willing to air risky, power-interrogating comedy due to political and financial pressures.
  • Quote: “We're entering into a point where our democracy is totally being threatened. I just don't think...people who run these companies...making decisions that are going to threaten that.” – Jena, [36:21]
• Independent vs. Mainstream Spaces:
  • They theorize about the lack of independent, investigative comedic voices, noting that established names (Oliver, Maher, Stewart) can still poke at power, but new voices face huge resource barriers.

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5. Debating the Value in Engaging “The Other Side”

(39:20–47:38)

• Would Jena Ever Engage Pro-Life Arguments?:
  • She distinguishes the death penalty debate (where sides can at least agree on some metrics) from the abortion debate (more “fundamental reality disconnect”).
  • Emphasizes importance of “good faith” in conversations, skepticism about arguing with those “fueled by...anti-women place.” – [40:05]
  • On abortion polarization: “I don't like to look at things in terms of sides...I think we're all a lot more complicated.” – Jena, [40:40]
• Describing the Real Harm:
  • Returns repeatedly to the material and social realities of abortion restrictions, e.g. ectopic pregnancies and the effect of bans on actual women.
  • Expresses openness to bridging divides, but recognizes limitations when arguments are not grounded in science or goodwill.

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6. Grief, Sincerity, and “Motherfucker”

(47:38–53:34)

• New Special Focuses on Grief:
  • Jena’s “Motherfucker” marks a tonal shift—honest, vulnerable stories about her mother’s death and motherhood.
  • Quote: “Watching other people talk about [grief] is what helped me. So I was like, I'm just gonna pay it forward and try to put something together.” – Jena, [48:01]
• On Breaking Her Own Mold:
  • Mike notes the earnestness is a departure from Jena’s signature caustic style; she embraces the evolution, “The older you get, the less you care.” – Jena, [49:31]

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7. The Politics of Motherhood, Pronatalism, and Language

(53:34–56:06)

• Left vs. Right Storytelling About Family:
  • They discuss whether “the left” cedes positive stories about family and reproduction to the right/conservative frame.
  • Jena points out that many who have abortions are already mothers and stresses the need to reclaim and broaden the narrative around reproductive rights.
  • Quote: “How do you just talk about it as, like, healthcare and, like, you know, we, we want women and children in our country to thrive.” – Jena, [53:34]
• On Insults and Cultural Language:
  • Briefly riffs on the persistent power of “your mom” as an insult and the media’s difficulty reporting satire and diss culture in today’s fast-moving reality.
  • Humorous exchange:
    • Pesca: “Do you have jokes?”
    • Jena: “Barely.” [55:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Abortion jokes are airplane humor—for women of my generation.” – Jena Friedman, [08:20]
• “The best thing about abortion jokes is no one tries to steal them. They're like the unwanted children of jokes.” – Jena Friedman, [07:17]
• “I have chosen this weird path...For a period of time, I think it worked. And I got to do stuff I can’t imagine doing now.” – Jena Friedman, [35:28]
• “Would you not be as satisfied if you were telling jokes that were funny and that the crowd connected to...? …Not this political or third rail type humor.” – Mike Pesca, [14:57]
• “…empathy for [death penalty supporters]…Take comfort in the fact nothing's happened in your life that has moved you to the other side.” – Jena Friedman, [26:03]
• “I don't like to look at things in terms of sides…It's helpful for people to divide us.” – Jena Friedman, [40:40]
• “The industry isn’t taking risks like that...you know, everyone’s being squeezed.” – Jena Friedman, [35:31]
• “I want to live in a democracy, and I want people who are anti-abortion to hear my content…see, like, women should have access to health care.” – Jena Friedman, [46:38]
• “Watching other people talk about [grief] is what helped me. So I was like, I’m just gonna pay it forward...” – Jena Friedman, [48:01]
• “The older you get, the less you care.” – Jena Friedman, [49:31]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|------------------------------------------------| | 06:35 | Comedy about abortion and real-world change | | 10:49 | News coverage, algorithms, and tragedy details | | 14:11 | Resilience from early standup struggles | | 23:10 | True crime show, “Indefensible,” and ambivalence| | 26:03 | Empathy on death penalty | | 35:28 | TV industry’s risk aversion and comedy limits | | 39:20 | Could she debate “pro-life” advocates fairly? | | 47:38 | “Motherfucker” and grief as content | | 53:34 | Political narratives about motherhood | | 55:35 | The eternal “your mom” insult | | 56:06 | Closing quips about Mitch McConnell jokes |

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Tone & Style

The conversation is sharp, witty, and honest, with Jena’s signature dry humor threading through even the darkest topics. Both speakers routinely self-deprecate, challenge assumptions (their own and each other’s), and avoid simple ideological binaries. The dialogue shifts fluidly between analytical and personal, political and comedic.

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This summary provides a comprehensive guide to the episode's content, memorable exchanges, and thematic highlights for listeners new or returning to “The Gist.”

Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

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[Mike Pesca]

March 6, 2026 from Peach Fish Productions it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. Funny you should mention. It's an episode of Funny you should mention. And we have on Funny lady. The female comedians hate that. I think male comedians hate that. In fact, it's so hated that it's kind of fun. Today. Funny Lady Jenna Friedman. Jenna has been on the show before. She was talking then about her memoir when which as you will hear me mentioned, had one of those titles that immediately insists on disclaimers. And no, that wasn't true. It's called Not Funny Essays on life, comedy, culture, etc. That was an author interview. This is a comic interview. Jenna does comedy. She is in demand to be a writer on so many shows because she is one of the people who with a Daily show background and then having her own show Soft Focus and another show called True Crime Story Indefensible. She has shown that she has skill in the language and vocabulary of those kind of comedy shows. And she also picks up a mic and does stand up. Her first stand up special I can't really say. I mean it's America American and then the C word. And I don't mean an ocean going vessel. Am I engaging in an almost Victorian patronization of Jenna and those who want to proudly embrace the C word? Or am I just being a sensible male in America experiencing self defense when I say her special was American C word. And I'm not going to say the C word. Second special later killer. Third special Motherfucker. I'll say the motherfucker. You know, in the Jennifer Friedman.com site it spells out that C word but it takes the U out of the special Motherfucker which he is here to talk about. It's a really good special and this was an interesting conversation that went down a few avenues and rivulets of stream of consciousness that I don't think either one of us anticipated. Maybe you as a member of the audience will enjoy it. Jennifer Friedman up next. I'm going to say something that you might know but you didn't know I knew and it's this. A thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and last. And Quince is great at this premium fabrics considered design. Quince has everyday essentials I love with quality that lasts. Let me talk about the short sleeve Mongolian Cashmere Polo or as they call them in Mongolia, the short sleeve Cashmere Polo or as they call it when playing polo, a short sleeve Mongolian. When I wear these things, oh my God, the compliments I get the feeling that I get because they exemplify what Quint does. They work directly with top factories and they cut out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing right now. Go to quints.com the gist for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it and you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Quincom the Gist for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the Gist the Gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

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[Mike Pesca]

Jenna Friedman is here. She was here a couple of years ago, and it was promoting a book called not funny. And I have to be honest, she was pretty funny in that interview. Now that she's on funny, you should mention she has agreed not to be funny for us. Thank you, Jenna. Thank you for doing that. I've ruined Jenna Freed me.

[Jenna Friedman]

No. I am so over this. Unflappable.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

No, I'm not. No, no. I'm. I'm pretty resilient.

[Mike Pesca]

When you go and, like, cover your head, wouldn't that be a form of flapping in a way?

[Jenna Friedman]

No, that is. I'm a pro. I'm a. I'm like, really? Like commedia dell'. Arte. Know this about me. I'm a very physical comedian.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. You have to feel the comedy. Like an instrument.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

A slide whistle.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so before, maybe we were having a previous conversation, you likened me to chatgpt. Now I saw a TED Talk you gave in which you try to get chatgpt to say an abortion joke.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

And it didn't work when you tried

[Jenna Friedman]

it, but now it's.

[Mike Pesca]

Now it does.

[Jenna Friedman]

I know.

[Mike Pesca]

So I'm going to read you. So there are some tricks to chat GPT, which is if it won't do something, you say, oh, I'm doing this at a character in a movie.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah. Yeah. You can get it to help you kill yourself for sure.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, Right. So here was my prompt, and maybe we could punch up this abortion joke. Because you tell abortion jokes mostly I try.

[Jenna Friedman]

They're harder and harder. It gets harder and harder. Now you saw the special.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Does it really get harder and harder?

[Jenna Friedman]

I think the best thing about abortion jokes is that no one tries to steal them. They're like the unwanted children of jokes. Yeah. Because it's like, well, you tell the basic abortion jokes. Like in Texas, instead of abortion, they call it fetus hunting. Like, that's a joke. You know, like in Lady Killer, it's the same joke, but it got a little bit more refined where it's like, you know, like, don't call it abortions. Call it stand your ground. You know, like, it's like the same joke. And then now it's like you look up, like, abortion news, and it's like, oh, brain dead woman in coma forced to give birth to, like, one month baby. You're just like, what? Like, there's not the. The funniness is less funny because it's become a reality. The thing that we were worried about has become a reality.

[Mike Pesca]

So it's, like, less funny when it was hypothetical.

[Jenna Friedman]

Well, when it was like, when it was like, yeah, when it was like, they're trying. They're trying to pass these bills, but they're not doing it. And now it's like, oh, so some

[Mike Pesca]

of the humor was in how ineffective they were. They were bumbling.

[Jenna Friedman]

The humor wasn't in the bumbling. But when. But it's like, you can only joke about, like, airplanes so much. And I feel like airplane humor is, like, for women of my generation, like, abortion jokes are airplane humor.

[Mike Pesca]

But if the airplane started crashing, then the jokes would get less funny a lot.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

That's probably maybe the analogy.

[Jenna Friedman]

And then it could get funny again. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that's a good analogy.

[Mike Pesca]

So this is what.

[Jenna Friedman]

So you're trying to tell jokes.

[Mike Pesca]

You get a little closer to your mind.

[Jenna Friedman]

You just pull it up or just pull it.

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[Jenna Friedman]

Thank you. So you're trying to tell jokes about. You're like, what's the deal with airplane food? As it's crashing? Now that's funny to us because we're not on the flight. But if you're on the flight, which I feel like all women in America right now are on the flight, Right. And maybe, you know, men don't care, but the women are on the flight, and women actually are my target demo. I've said this before, like, we don't know it because we're taught to hate each other, but I do try to make women laugh, even though we're so tired. And abortion jokes, it's just when you're. When you're making an abortion joke, that hasn't been said. And that's hard because all the abortion jokes have been said and you've said a lot of them and other people said a lot of them. And like, you're trying to find a new take and whatever. It's just. I am bailing on this.

[National Debt Relief Advertiser]

This bit.

[Jenna Friedman]

I'm.

[Mike Pesca]

Wait a minute. I think it would be more like in America if there were a bunch of airplanes crashing.

[Jenna Friedman]

There are in a couple tomorrow things.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, things used to be a lot worse. But what if all the airplanes were crashing because, like, 14 states had totally inadequate air traffic control and refused to have good air traffic controllers? Right. Only hired, like, kids out of high school. But the other 36 states were like, that's kind of insane. We're going to have even better air traffic.

[Jenna Friedman]

But even those states are, like, inundated with people from the Other states trying to get on those flights.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

And then you have still people in those other states bleeding out in parking lots. I can't extend the analogy. So it's like you care. You still care about them.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you think? I was having this discussion with a friend when there was. When Dobbs first was codified, when Dobbs was first decided, there were a lot of stories where a lot of journalists followed women in states like Texas, and they were, you know, not getting the medical care they needed. And it was, it was very troubling. You hear so far fewer of those stories now. Do you think they're out there as much, they're just not being covered, or do you think, like, there's so much else in our threat matrix we can't.

[Jenna Friedman]

Oh, they're. I mean, they're being. They're. They're on my algorithm. Yeah, they're maybe not in your algorithm.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, my algorithm's like front page of the New York Times, Washington Post.

[Jenna Friedman]

Well, I mean, they're not getting clicks, but there are tons of stories of like, you know, a woman who had to be medevaced, who was lucky enough to be medevaced to another state, and she was like, you know, like a well to do white woman in Texas, and she had like a fetus abnormality that was gonna like kill her if she didn't, you know, get an abortion. And she had to be like, medevac to another state to do it because of these crazy laws. Somebody who has like an ectopic pregnancy, which is like a non viable pregnancy. The hospital won't operate on them because it's like they're afraid that they're gonna get sued because it's a fetus, even though it's outside of the you. Whatever, fallopian tube. I'm. I was on a red eye last night. But anyway, but like, these people have to go to hospitals outside of state. You know, the. The woman who ended up being. She had like a blood clot and she was a nurse at the hospital, so they knew her and she had a blood clot. And then like, they wouldn't. I. This is really funny. Content. They wouldn't operate on her because when they needed to, because she was pregnant. And then by the time it was too late, she was in a coma.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. I remember hearing about that.

[Jenna Friedman]

Ariana Smith maybe is her name. And she ended up, like, having to harvest the fetus. And now the kid is that it is a kid. They. They took him out of her. And I don't know, I kind of Stopped following that story. It's just tragic all around. But, like, it's in my algorithm. It's just not. And it's not on the COVID of the New York Times, and it's not in your miracle.

[Mike Pesca]

That's what you're saying. They saved the kid. It's. No, this is what. This is what they wanted. But how long ago did that happen even.

[Jenna Friedman]

Okay. Because it was like. It might be like, brain. I don't know. How long ago did that happen?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, this year.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so this answers the question then.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, no, this just happened a couple months ago.

[Mike Pesca]

So when you hear. This is interesting. So before abortion was actually banned. Even when it was.

[Jenna Friedman]

Even. Even if it's not banned, it's like, effectively banned if you can't access it. If they're like abortion deserts where you can't get. Yeah, and I don't want to talk about it as abortion. It's just health care. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

But my question is, when Roe was the controlling Supreme Court ruling by, um. Was it easier to make a joke because you don't have to deal with the specifics of everything you just said and stories like it. When it was just like, oh, we can't get health care. It gives. It's more capacious and there's more room for humor. But when it's so specific, what do you do with those details?

[Jenna Friedman]

I think I also just told the basic jokes, and now I'm just like. I still am trying to figure out new ways into it. And we were trying to do new. It's like just a harder way into something.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

It's also just. It feels more. It feels just like even more tragic now. Just because you know of who's in power and what they're doing.

[Mike Pesca]

Be trying to feel your way into it because you want to or you feel you have to.

[Jenna Friedman]

Both.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, both.

[Jenna Friedman]

That's like. Unfortunately, you said something very funny.

[Mike Pesca]

Funny. You should mention what was. Wasn't this show. Right. It was. It was our 2022 interview.

[Jenna Friedman]

You're like. You're actually, like, you're trying to not be or like you're trying to not be funny or something. It was like, very. I thought as. But, yeah, like, I can be funny, but I choose. The subjects I choose are, like, digging my own grave.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Jenna Friedman]

But that, for whatever reason, that's what is motivating to me. I don't know why. Like, my true crime show, like, I. It's really hard to, like, make comedy when you're, like, talking to victims families. But for whatever reason, throughout My career, like, this has just kind of been the thing. Like when I worked on Borat, it was like, yeah, how do we make, like, incest funny? And the fact that people are cool with it. Like, we shot a scene at that pregnancy crisis center, you know, and then you're like. But I just. That's kind of what that challenge is, what I enjoy. It's totally swimming upstream. And I would have been so much more successful if I just shut my eyes and like, let the stream take me. But I just, like, I did put rules up. I, like, I. I've tried, you know, it is analytical and kind of annoying, and I've just done that and it's fine.

[Mike Pesca]

Would you not be as satisfied if you are telling jokes?

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, of course.

[Mike Pesca]

That were funny and that the crowd connected to. And maybe it was even something about you. Things that are important about you, but not this political or third rail type humor.

[Jenna Friedman]

When I first started doing stand up, okay, I was in. I was in Chicago and my first set, I had a friend who worked in the alderman's office, and she was responsible to make sure that people who got public urination citations didn't end up on the sex offender registry. I thought that that was so funny. So I wrote a bit about how I was like a sex offender. A couple things happened. One, Bert Haas, who booked Zany, is like, booked me from this, like, five minute set, and he was like, sex offender comedian. And then I'm like, wait a minute, like, I'm being branded as this, like, ironically. Also later, Sarah Silverman had like a bit on her show which was so funny, I think, with a similar topic. So, like, you know, when it. When like two people do the same thing, it just makes you want to do something different because it's like already out in the zeitgeist. And then another thing that happened, and this I don't talk about because it was like, so demoralizing, but I shot this bit that I. It was from the improv and it was a five minute clip from a bringer show where I'm like, like, like introduce myself to neighbors. Like, like, knock on the door, like, hi, I'm Jenna. I'm the sex offender in 3F, like, just doing these, like, little bits. And this guy who was like the timeout comedy critic called me that I got into the funniest person finals. Hannibal was in it and obviously won.

[Mike Pesca]

Chicago or New York?

[Jenna Friedman]

Chicago. When I first started doing Stand by, It was like 2006 or 7. And he said, we at timeout think you stole this joke. That's why I'm. You know, it's like the worst thing you can be caught as a comedian. It's like a joke thief. And. And he's, like. From this other comic who was like, this black comic, and maybe I want to say Atlanta, but, like, it's a different. It was a different joke, but we both did a knockout. We did, like, the knock, like, I'm a sex offender thing. Parallel thought is a thing. The more you do comedy, the more you realize it. That was a kind of, like, it's a funny premise, but it's. It's. It's kind of common. Like, it was in the Zeitgeist at the time.

[Mike Pesca]

Was the other comedian a man?

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, well, that alone makes it different.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, it makes it different. He wasn't white. It makes it. It's a different. It's a different joke, but it's a similar joke. And I'd never seen it. And I was, like, so mortified. I'd been doing improv for a year. This is my first Foreigner to stand up. I'm so excited to be on this festival. And before I even do my set, they tell me, like, they think. They all think I stole it. And I didn't steal it. And I was like, what do I do? And I don't remember if I did the joke or not, but I was like, I didn't steal the joke.

[Mike Pesca]

But if you did it, did you not commit to it 100%?

[Jenna Friedman]

Well, you're in your head.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I know.

[Jenna Friedman]

And this. I actually wrote about this guy in my book. It is quite funny because I also. He's the same guy. I had done this play that was a satire on American Girl dolls as refugees. And I did. It's called the Refugee Girls Review. And I did it in Chicago. We got, like, one star in timeout Chicago theater. They called it akin to a summer camp talent show. This guy called it the worst comedic attempt of 2007. That wasn't even a title in Timeout Chicago. That wasn't even a category. He said, with such a talented cast, he named two of my cast members. We can't believe they let this happen. I was so mortified. This is the same guy who, like, said, I stole that other joke. Then I took the show to New York, and it got four stars in timeout New York. And they got exactly what we were doing. They were like, this is, like, an edgy political satire with a cast. Cast of 10 women doing, like, really cool political stuff. It doesn't. Who cares like, that the choreography isn't great. You know what I mean?

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. So this guy's like the joke police of Chicago.

[Jenna Friedman]

It's just like, I think. I think that there. There are fewer gatekeepers now. For better or for worse. But it was just like, someone who maybe, like, I looked like someone he didn't like or like. He just had, like, a bone to pick with me. And at the time, like, it's so crazy to be, like, standing here 15 years later, still thinking about him and, like, I can't believe I'm still in this industry. But, like, you need, like, to be kicked when you're down. Like, I was 23 and I produced this play on my own with 10 of my friends, and they called it a category that didn't even exist in Chicago. It's, like, so funny. It's, like, good that that happened to me then, because this whole career is so hard that it's like, if you can. If you can handle that, then you can handle anything that comes after it.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, it's like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But that doesn't take into account all the things that kill you. Like, right.

[Jenna Friedman]

Like cancer does not make you stronger.

[Mike Pesca]

That, yes, there's kill you.

[Jenna Friedman]

So see, I'm jet lagged. What doesn't kill you?

[Mike Pesca]

Testosterone. Sorry. Sorry. Testicular cancer doesn't make you stronger. It really doesn't. Even though it has a high cure.

[Jenna Friedman]

Muscular dystrophy.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, it might.

[Jenna Friedman]

That kills you.

[Mike Pesca]

No, I mean, I think they have. I think they have somewhat higher death rates.

[Jenna Friedman]

Wheelhouse.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

This conversation is where I shine.

[Mike Pesca]

Being in a wheelchair makes you stronger.

[Jenna Friedman]

Did you see that? Three hours of sleep.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Have you ever seen the American Girl doll musical that they produced in House?

[Jenna Friedman]

That is.

[Mike Pesca]

So you saw it?

[Jenna Friedman]

So that was. That is what I parodied.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Jenna Friedman]

So I. I was working on the sketch show in Chicago. It was a political sketch show. And they. And I had, like, I'd. So I had. In the news, there was a thing about how, like, the doll of 2005, her backstory, because they all came with a book. She fled her dangerous neighborhood of Pilsen and moved to Downers Grove. Pilsen is this proud Mexican American neighborhood in ch. And the people of Pilsen were pissed. So I read this. I'm like, this is hilarious. American Girl is, like, whitewashing these characters and their stories. I'm gonna do, like, a refugee girl. It's like a garbage pail version of that. A refugee girl doll of the week. And I Had, like, Fallujah Jones who, like, fluttered. Dangerous neighborhood of Baghdad. There were terrorists hiding in the jungle gym, and they bombed her out. And then she, like, came to America. And I had these stories, and every. Every week I had a different refugee. And then I went to the American Girl doll store, and I saw the musical, and I was like, I should make a musical. So I parodied the musical, and it was like, in the actual story, it's like, a new girl moves to town. And all these other girls were like, we'll teach you what it's like to be an American girl by acting out our favorite doll stories. In mine, it was like, two black girls from New Orleans fled. They are internally displaced people because they were, like, not refugees, but IDPs. And this, like, evangelical couple adopted them. Their names are Katrina and Rita. And all these, like, white chicks from this. From, like, Peoria were like, you don't know what it's like to be a real refugee. We're gonna teach you with our, like, songs and dances and characters. And it was a really funny show. And I love how New York got it. It was like, one of the reasons I was like, I gotta move to New York.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, the Chicago guy was right in that a category did not exist for that. That part is somewhat true.

[Jenna Friedman]

A category didn't exist for what?

[Mike Pesca]

Like, what you were doing was defying categorization.

[Jenna Friedman]

It was political satire.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, but it's the way.

[Jenna Friedman]

That's a second city. That's a city for that. No, I think it was like, I was like a city. Like, small towns are inherently like, they're more political because it's like a smaller pod and there's less diversity. And I think, like, you know, you can't give negative reviews to Second City because then that won't let you back, and it'll sever the relationship. So it's like, if you're just, like, a young person on your own, it's like you're a target, assuming that people are assholes. Like, if I were a critic, I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have, like, done that. But I'm also, like, not a critic. I fucking do stuff.

[Mike Pesca]

So what, your show, your True Crime show, What was the name of that?

[Jenna Friedman]

Indefensible. And I think. I think critics are not always there.

[Mike Pesca]

There's a Pulitzer Prize for criticism, and some of them are quite.

[Jenna Friedman]

I think I love Jason Zinn. I think at the New York Times, he's one of my favorite.

[Mike Pesca]

Got to say that, though, if you want to work in this town. No, I'm joking. Jason's in a man.

[Jenna Friedman]

Jason is on it.

[Mike Pesca]

Notices things no one else does and pulls brands together.

[Jenna Friedman]

No, I've always loved him. I think he's just really like. He's like, what? Everything you want in a critic. Someone who really kind of sees through the bullshit and is just, like, smart and doesn't. He's not, like, driven by ulterior motives. He really just. He's like a journalist, right?

[Mike Pesca]

He's taking this craft of standup comedy and bringing a lens to it. Not just, this is good, this is bad, but here's how it's working.

[Jenna Friedman]

Small towns. And the end of that little story is that guy who is so mean reached out to me when my book came out, and he wanted to, like, apologize. Not. He didn't actually want to apologize. He wanted to say that it wasn't him who wrote the bad review. It was like this other person.

[Mike Pesca]

The opposite of apologizing. It's like shifting the blame.

[Jenna Friedman]

I was like, I don't. I didn't respond well.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, as a factual matter, was he right? Like, his byline wasn't on that review

[Jenna Friedman]

or he sent theater to review me instead of having him do it.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, okay. So indefensible. I started watching old clips, and it reminded me of the show that shows kind of brilliant. I think you really good. And it also seems very hard to

[Jenna Friedman]

make the episodes on YouTube and they're going to probably take them down. How many people watch this?

[Mike Pesca]

Hundreds of thousands. Or at least hundreds or thousands.

[Jenna Friedman]

Really? Okay, well, all the hundred of you go on YouTube. You can watch every episode until they make me take them down.

[Mike Pesca]

So I was watching one where it was called, I think, Bye Bye Wozniak. Remember this episode?

[Jenna Friedman]

Oh, that's the worst episode in the series.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, that's interesting that you say that,

[Jenna Friedman]

because my mom was literally dying and I was eight months pregnant as I was making that.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, see, I think. I don't think it's the worst. I think that the through line, it seems complicated and at odds with itself. And I'm not exactly sure. I think it's great that you tackle it. So we should explain that it's about a horrible guy who did a horrible thing, which is murder two people. And then the prosecutor of Orange county went for the death penalty and put him on death row. And then you do a whole examination of, well, is that really justice? Because he'll never die in California. All it will do is cost the taxpayers. What is the point of doing this? As a signaling mechanism. But you also allowed for the prosecutor to make his point pretty well, I think. And so it was in. This is the word, I'd say ambivalent. And I don't know even it's not ambivalent. You had ambivalence.

[Jenna Friedman]

My mom was dying, but you had ambivalence during that. Eight months pregnant. I was like, I just need to finish this episode. She died over six weeks during that shoot. I as the viewer, ambivalent because it's like such a controversial topic and I'm trying to navigate it. I think it's ambitious to try to navigate a topic like that. But I wasn't like, I mean, if I was. If the ambivalence is like me being checked out because I'm like dealing with personal shit while I'm shooting something. But I talked to like a father whose son was murdered. And like, it's interesting and I did recently rewatch that and I do think it's like the weakest episode. But I also think that the takeaway was so, I'm proud of it. It was so like clear eyed. And my takeaway was like. And you'll have to jog my memory. But to the like, you know, if you're anti death penalty, take comfort in the fact that nothing's happened in your life. That that has moved you to the other side.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Jenna Friedman]

And I don't think that that's ambivalent. I think that that's empathetic. And I'm anti, you know, I'm anti death penalty. I don't think the government should be killing people. That's, that's kind of like where I am. And also the death penalty, like in so many states, it's like innocent people. So I'm an anti death penalty person and I'm like also doing a show that gave me the bandwidth to talk about the craziest stuff. And so I think the people that the seven people who watch my content like probably agree with me. And so I'm like showing them like this is the other side of it, whether we like it or not. And here, at least in California is like what it actually means. What like the death penalty actually means?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, this is, let's define terms ambivalent. I don't know how it's used normally, but I use it.

[Jenna Friedman]

Bring up a Webster's dictionary.

[Mike Pesca]

I use it, I use it to mean, or it can mean, but I use it. When you have deeply conflicting ideas or emotions.

[Jenna Friedman]

Not meaning, nothing could be there.

[Mike Pesca]

To me they're synonyms. This is what I'm trying to say. It was nuanced and I thought ambivalent or conflicted because clearly you're anti death penalty. You show that a lot of what they were going for with the death penalty was, like I said, signaling or kind of a sop to the worst instincts of the society. Yet, on the other hand, it ends with you talking to the father and what you just said. How do you be thankful that you didn't really have to consider this in anything other than an abstract way?

[Jenna Friedman]

That your only son, who is an Afghan war hero, was murdered by a theater major who, like, didn't even do community theater? Well, for $70,000. Yeah, 70,000 or something like that. It was, like, less than 100,000. Because he wanted to take a honeymoon.

[Mike Pesca]

A honeymoon. And didn't want to work. Exactly, exactly.

[Jenna Friedman]

It's like. And then. And then Julie Kibayashi, like, I kind of like, she was also murdered because she was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Like, by this fucking.

[Mike Pesca]

Right? So when doing that, did the pro. Did you go in with thoughts and had them change along the way? Do you remember?

[Jenna Friedman]

We do a lot of research. I mean, like, this show got canceled, I think, because it was like. I think about the episodes that we did and what I got away with. Like, the episode before that was on Criminalized Survivors, which are, like, people who, like, are in abusive situations and, like, kill their abusers and then get prison for life. And there's, like, very little context around, like, why they did what they did. Like, one example we had was, like, this woman who was, like, sex trafficked at 13. She killed her abuser. She's in prison for life in California. Gavin Newsom overturned her conviction. She got out. But then the prosecutor in Riverside, who I talked to also while my mom was dying, and he had, like, a private security guard with a gun, like, next to me, and I'm eight months pregnant. I'm just like, hey, hey. Trying to, like, talk to him. Like, that guy Mike Hestrin is in. I can't, like, Speed in Riverside because I'll get, like, locked up for life. But, like, those types of shows also, like, people are too afraid to do those kinds of shows. Like, my show for sure got canceled, right? Like, we got two seasons, and then we just got canceled because it was just, like, two. People just don't want that kind of content anymore. Like, even Kimmel can't say, like, you know, hey, guys, like, stop politicizing this tragedy or however, whatever he said. Like, people are so sensitive so this show, I think we really went there. I had very little. The only episode they didn't want me to talk about, like the New York City cops who were like raped, those who like raped the women. In 2011 when I was living in the East Village, like, I really wanted to do a story on that. That's like kind of where they do the line. But everything else we were, I really didn't, I was really given kind of for the freedom to talk about anything.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

And so like I wanted to do like, I also like wanted to do a death penalty episode because it's the gamut, you know, like, you don't want to just be like one sided. It's like criminalized survivors, but also like, like death penalty.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Jenna Friedman]

And also gay panic defense and consent defense. And you. I tried to just kind of figure out like all the hot button topics around, around the criminal justice system.

[Mike Pesca]

Were you changed by the process of doing the episode, is my question. Did you come in knowing that you'd be as conflicted?

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think so, right? I mean, yes, on all the, on all the episode. You just do so much research going into it and you just learn. And I don't think my views are like fixed ever. I don't. I do think it gave me more empathy for people who want the death penalty. It definitely did. Talking to that father gave me a lot more empathy for that, for that side of it.

[Mike Pesca]

And we'll be back with more of Jenna Friedman right after this. The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This 24 7, 365 cycle of news might be burning out your soul. So here's a pick me up for your ears. Love letters from our friends at the Boston Globe. In Love Letters, host and longtime reporter Meredith Goldstein explores how real people navigate their lives in this crazy cuckoo world. She tells stories like the husband who turned 40 and decided to build an adult sized ball pit for himself in his basement. And Meredith is the good reporter. Asks, how might that affect one's marriage and does that count as a midlife crisis? They have lessons for everyone and just make the world feel like a better place, a more human place. So find the Boston Globes Love Letters. Wherever you get your podcast, maybe you'll find you have a Story to tell too. Jenna Friedman is not the titular motherfucker, but is the stand up comedian whose latest special is called Just that. And we rejoin the conversation. And I see in your comedy sometimes a tension between the good progressive instinct to be opposed to the death penalty for all the reasons that one should be opposed, that it's unfairly applied and that. That sometimes innocent people are put in jail. And your. Especially when it comes to women, your quest for justice and vengeance. I see that come out sometimes. Like in Lady Killer. It comes out sometimes.

[Jenna Friedman]

What do you mean? Like, what's an example?

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I think you're talking, like, when you talk about the likelihood of women being murdered, there's a quest for justice there. Like an unflinching quest for justice. Sometimes when you talk. I don't see a lot of sympathy for men who are murdered. No, no, not that.

[Jenna Friedman]

For.

[Mike Pesca]

I don't see a lot of or hear a lot of. I'm trying to think of the example because it was right and maybe I wrote it down, but I'm like, okay, that fits in with this episode that I saw of the TV show where it's like, motherfuckers, to borrow a phrase, we're murdering women and we're not doing enough to punish the men or to go after the men who do it.

[Jenna Friedman]

Oh, there was that. The episode called A Few Bad Men where the guy, like, got out of prison and murdered someone and would have stayed in prison if, like, the first woman he almost murdered but woke up. Like, if she didn't wake up, he would have stayed, but because she woke up, they just kind of like got him out on parole a little early and then he killed someone else. Yeah, Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, there's a lot of. If you. If you want to be. If you want to be your wife

[Jenna Friedman]

is my target demographic. She and I are having a whole separate podcast, and it's just in our eyes. And that would be great if we got to record that in the.

[Mike Pesca]

In the TV show. Even in that episode. Bye bye, Wozniak, There are still unbelievably funny moments. Like when you talk to.

[Jenna Friedman]

There was the Stone kid who helped the guy do it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. And then he said, I wonder why he picked me. And you said, well, because you do it. Because you did it.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, because you're an idiot. Are you stone now?

[Jenna Friedman]

Thank you. That was fun. Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So it's always good to. And then there was a jazz hands joke, too, that you quickly apologize for. But so here's my analysis of me.

[Jenna Friedman]

I try No, I mean, there's a. There's another episode about a kid whose father was murdered in a gay panic case. And he, like, it was so sad. And I was sitting across from him, still trying to be the sad clown. Like, I brought, like, a prop because, like, these episodes made me cry, and I never want to cry at work. So, like, I, like, brought a prop that was, like, my face with, like, a stick on it, and I just would, like, hold it up over my face, and it was so cheesy and dry.

[Mike Pesca]

You were crying behind it.

[Jenna Friedman]

Cause it was so sad.

[Mike Pesca]

My family, who he wanted me to be. And I put on this happy mask of, I'm okay, I'm great, everything's fine.

[Jenna Friedman]

And I'm trying not to cry on camera. It kind of looked like that. It was a happy mask. You just set me up. You just set me up to be able to use this horrible prop. But, like, it's real stuff. I mean, I don't know. Like, I. I mean, for people who are still watching. Good on you. I know that I could be funny, but I choose. I've chosen this weird path, and for a period of time, I think it worked. And I got to do stuff I can't imagine doing now. And maybe now I think I might have to pivot because the industry isn't taking risks like that.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, so what was the period of time?

[Jenna Friedman]

So I left the daily show in 2015. I was there. John's last three years. We definitely were able to do that kind of stuff. And, you know, before 2015, I got my Adult Swim show, which I could do whatever the fuck I wanted in, like, 2017. And that. That was, like, my favorite show in the world. And then this show came after that. And I think, you know, in this era, 2024, with the current way things are going politically, I just don't think. And, like, everyone's being squeezed. There's just not enough money for people to take risks. There's, like, not people in power who are okay with that. We're entering into a point where, like, our democracy is totally being threatened. And I just don't think the people who, you know, they're. The people who run these companies have lives and jobs, and they've. They're not making decisions that are going to threaten that.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, there are risks taking out there, but it's not from major corporations. I think, you know Andrew Callahan.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, Andrew Callahan is doing stuff. Did he.

[Mike Pesca]

I don't know if. I don't know if he's even a comedian, but, you know, he just did

[Jenna Friedman]

you read what happened in my brain and then I just stopped talking.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, but there are people who are doing it.

[Jenna Friedman]

Who else?

[Mike Pesca]

Who else is doing very risky comedy? I mean, what's John doing on the Daily show now that's paid.

[Jenna Friedman]

I mean, he's, he's, he's a whole apparatus behind him. You're saying people. Independently. I'm talking about independently.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. Well, no, my first instinct was if it's being done, it's independent. And then you said, who else is doing it? So John's doing it from. John Stewart's doing it from.

[Jenna Friedman]

Not independent. John's not independently.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. So who else is independently doing political comedy that really pokes at people.

[Jenna Friedman]

That's like investigative journalism, which requires investigators.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so there's a lot of investigative journalism being done that's not funny and there's.

[Jenna Friedman]

That's also funny.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. I'll think on it, Callahan. I don't know. Investigative and funny and independently. So you're saying the Daily show was doing it at one time.

[Jenna Friedman]

Daily show was totally. I mean, so I did a piece on fast food worker strikes where we like made fun of McDonald's and McDonald's was our sponsor and nobody cared.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

And yeah. You were allowed to like really do you. We really weren't censored.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Jenna Friedman]

And you know, I wasn't censored on my true crime show, but then I didn't get it didn't get picked up again.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. Well, John Oliver is.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, John Oliver is doing stuff like that.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Jenna Friedman]

And HBO is letting him. And Bill Maher is doing stuff like that and HBO's letting him.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So if there's no independent people doing it, I don't know, does that say something about the algorithms or the audience?

[Jenna Friedman]

I don't, I mean, I don't know. I was just. You, you had said something about it. I don't, I don't even. It doesn't. I don't think it also matters that it's independent or not. I think, I think the thing we were saying is because people don't want to pay for it, there's an opportunity to do it independently. It does require a huge amount of resources to get right. Even when you're just making a field piece, there's a month of pre production and three weeks of an edit and researchers and there's a lot of work that goes into doing these kinds of projects.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, right. So there's a lot of, I guess, challenging to the regime, left leaning people just Popping off like Hasan piker or streamer. But he's not putting any resources into it.

[Jenna Friedman]

I don't know what he's.

[Mike Pesca]

I don't know what I mean, he doesn't do. He doesn't do investigative pieces or anything like that. But what I wanted to ask you is when you have this experience, say, with a TV show about crime and you willingly put yourself in a position. All right, challenge me on some progressive ideal I have, like the death penalty should be illegal. And then it's hard. You know, you challenge yourself and then you say, all right, I don't know exactly what I think about it or I still know what I think, but I see the other side. Would you ever do something like that with abortion?

[Jenna Friedman]

The other side of abortion?

[Mike Pesca]

Someone who some. The equivalent of the pro capital punishment person. Let us take the pro life person who does it, because pro life. Let's take the person who identifies as pro life.

[Jenna Friedman]

Misnomer.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, sure.

[Jenna Friedman]

Was created because of propaganda in the 70s. It was just trying to divide to.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. You know, all the sides do. Right. As pro choice did.

[Jenna Friedman]

As like, if you want to really go there, like, I'm pro life. I want women to have access to healthcare. And I said this in the episode. It's like it's a unit maternal fetal health. It's like the fetus and the woman. It's a symbiotic relationship. You can't divorce them from the other. I am pro women having access to health care.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Jenna Friedman]

And so if I talk to someone who's not because they think it's murder, that's a harder conversation because two people aren't existing in the same reality. So you have to kind of meet them where they're at, which is like an antisocial science, anti women place. And that's really hard to do. And it's hard for me to like, you know, put like, there are Catholic priests who are pro choice.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Jenna Friedman]

And those people, I think, would be better at talking to people on the other side of the aisle than myself.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Jenna Friedman]

But like, you're saying, like, you want to, like, douse yourself in misinformation and see the world from that point of view.

[Mike Pesca]

Like, no, I don't want you to douse yourself in misinformation.

[Jenna Friedman]

I mean, it's, it's a. It's not. Like, I also don't, I don't like to look at things in terms of sides because it's like really binary. And I think we're all a lot more complicated and nuanced and I don't like, you know, I think like, left versus right is like, helpful to people who aren't like citizens and participants in a democracy. It's helpful for people to divide us. So like, it's like policy. Like you can't legislate abortion. I mean, people are going to have abortions. If you make them legal, they're just going to be less safe. So it's not even about how I personally feel about abortion. I just don't think the government should be making those decisions.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So I'm saying I agree. Okay.

[Jenna Friedman]

Doesn't. Yeah, okay.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay. But here is the question, because I'm curious if you.

[Jenna Friedman]

We and the people who disagree, they're still getting them. So keep going.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, let's say you were to talk to. Would you ever wish to talk to or engage with with or try to. I don't know if it's challenge yourself, but get a perspective in either your standup or show you did. That's the equivalent of the perspective of someone who's in favor of the death penalty, but on the topic of abortion. So the equivalent would be. I'm trying to make a very fair analogy. You talk to someone who's anti abortion and this person is anti abortion because they, whatever reasons they have. Let's say you were to take the, the best version, the fairest version of that, someone who likens it to infanticide. Would there be any benefit either intellectually or maybe comedically or artistically for you to engage on that issue like you did with the capital punishment issue?

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, I mean, it's always good to have conversations with people. I think the thing is, like, are they having them in good faith? Are they having them in bad faith? Is, are they fueled by, by religion or are they fueled by science?

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So you're saying you don't see that there is any. Where. I don't want to phrase it in negative. Do you think that there's any good faith reasons to be anti abortion as a government policy, as in we should ban abortions?

[Jenna Friedman]

I think you, you look at the data and have the data decide for you. And the data shows that when you ban abortions, people still have them and die. And more people, fewer people have access to health care. So. And then it's like a lot of philosophical arguments, like, do you want to live in a country where the government is deciding, like how often you can come into a sock?

[Mike Pesca]

Or like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

You know, it's like, it's. I don't, that's not really. I don't know, I mean, I'm open to talking to anybody if they're, if they're, if they're well and if like their intentions are not bad. I mean, I also think it's really hard because a lot of people just argue to argue and like cherry pick and debate and that's just. I don't have time or interest in that.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. There's an equivalent with the statistics that you just cited, similar statistics about the death penalty. Right. It doesn't work. Just look at the statistics. Like you say, people are going to have abortions anyway, people are going to murder anyway. And the death penalty is not a deterrent.

[Jenna Friedman]

But the death penalty exists in multiple states, so it's something we have to contend with. And abortion bans exist in multiple states, so it's something we have to contend with.

[Mike Pesca]

So I'm also interested in your talking about, you know, I don't know why in my career I just go to the place where I'm gonna get this pushback. Right. And it worked for you and now you're saying it doesn't.

[Jenna Friedman]

I'm not saying it doesn't work for

[Mike Pesca]

you, but I think you're gonna have a renaissance.

[Jenna Friedman]

I'm not saying it doesn't. Definitely from this podcast. I'm not saying it doesn't work.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

I'm just saying it's. There's just aren't opportunities for people aren't funding it. Like, I'm, I'm getting work, I'm working. I'm just not working in that space right now.

[Mike Pesca]

The pendulum will come back, though, don't you think?

[Jenna Friedman]

I think. I don't know. This is a lot. I mean, will the, like, you know, if we were, if we were living in like 1930s Berlin, it's like, yeah, the pendulum swings back in 70 years. You know what I mean? Or like, like whatever. I don't want to, I don't want to compare where we are to like 1930s Berlin. So maybe 1929 Berlin.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay.

[Jenna Friedman]

Definitely.

[Mike Pesca]

The pendulum does Weimar Republic.

[Jenna Friedman]

Sometime at some point the pendulum does swing back. But I mean, like, I do live in la and like, I am sure. I don't know if you're seeing it as much here, like I. But you know, people were being ripped, are still being ripped off the street because like they look undocumented and then being disappeared. I mean, that is like straight out now.

[Mike Pesca]

It's more, it's more a courthouse phenomenon here. But it goes on.

[Jenna Friedman]

So it's like this isn't like abstract, like this is happening and so we're just in a moment, I think, where, like, people are less willing to take risks. So comedy that interrogates power is, you know, less likely to be mainstream or put on television.

[Mike Pesca]

But you definitely feel like you can't not go there. That's what I'm getting. It's not that you want to go there or have to.

[Jenna Friedman]

I think it's, like, a problem.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Jenna Friedman]

This is interesting. I can't help it. It's what's exciting to.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

And I'm working on a really cool show now that is a lot less contentious, and it actually is bringing people together. And I'm, like, working in a capacity where I'm doing segments for people and I'm trying to kind of get out of my comfort zone and make content that's a little more unifying and less kind of acerbic. I don't know what the word is, but so I am trying to kind of, like, stretch my muscles, and I think that's helpful because at the end of the day, like, we are in a moment where, like, like, it's hard for us to talk to each other. And, like, I want to live in a democracy, and I want people who are, you know, anti abortion to, like, not. I don't. I want some of them to hear my content and, like, appreciate some of it and, like, understand where I'm coming from. Like, if you really believe that life is sacred, like, can we agree that women should have access to health care and that ectopic pregnancies, which are scientifically never going to come.

[Mike Pesca]

That story you told, shouldn't that appall you? That story about the woman Smith, or if that's.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, if that's her name, better let's

[Mike Pesca]

call her Adrian Smith. Well, that's okay.

[Jenna Friedman]

I mean, it's. No, that won't appall people for other reasons. I mean, and that's. That is infuriating. But, like, you know, like, don't, like, shouldn't, like, women be able to have IVF so that they can have family? It's like, how do you appeal to, like, you know, white women in Alabama? Like, ivf?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

You know what I mean? White women who are anti abortion still want ivf. They want their daughters to have abortions. You know, they don't. It's not. That's the other thing. It's like, it's not really abortion versus anti abortion. There's a lot of other stuff going on. The Republicans all pay for abortions, you know, when it's theirs. Like, they're. It's not. It's actually just a way to, like, control women and, like, trap us in cycles of poverty. So it's not like it's not as, like, binary as we think it is. I think it's a little more complicated. But I also don't want to be, like, so entrenched in one idea that I can't talk to people on another side of the aisle either.

[Mike Pesca]

Motherfucker. Is a lot about grief and the

[Jenna Friedman]

grief of your mom segue.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, well, it's what you just said, which is you're talking about grief is more palatable.

[Jenna Friedman]

Everybody have a dead parent.

[Mike Pesca]

So are you saying that. Was there any internal hesitancy to talk about that because you weren't doing the thing that we've just been talking about of challenging people and I mean, making them uncomfortable.

[Jenna Friedman]

I think I went like, the opposite way. I think, like, some comics, like, get into comedy and, like, tell like, dick jokes and then become political. Like, I started political and now I'm just, like, trying to keep doing this weird thing. Yeah. I just. My mom, as I mentioned before, my mom died over a six week period when I was in my third trimester. And like, I had a lot to say about it. And also while I was going through that grief, watching other people talk about it is what helped me. So I was like, I'm just gonna pay it forward and try to put something together.

[Mike Pesca]

Other people talk about your grief or other people, like comedians talking about Sarah

[Jenna Friedman]

Silverman show is incredible. Ricky Gervais is special. Crying in H Mart. Dead Moms Club. That's a book, obviously. Year of Magical. Think when you're just in this moment where you're just like, so catatonic. You just.

[Mike Pesca]

And then you get all this art. Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

You know Anderson Cooper's podcast, everything.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

Stephen Colbert talks about when you talk about grief, you're just like, you know, like, our country's grief, our culture's grief, illiterate. And so when this happens to you, it's like jumping into, like, a pool of, like, freezing water. You're just in shock. And so because no one talks about it, I was like, seeking out the people who were. And it was helping me process it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. So that is my specific question. Every other thing I've seen you do, you don't go a minute without being acerbic. And in this one, there are lines like, I felt like I was in a cold room without a blanket. Just really honest, earnest stuff. But was there any moment of, oh, I'm not being true to the Jenna Friedman brand or who I've been or did you just go, right?

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah, I'm like, that's off brand. Everything else. So, like, I don't know. I mean, the, the older you get, the less you care. And I don't, I mean, I, I don't think of myself as a brand. I mean, I'm just, I. I have the privilege to create content and hopefully make it funny or connect to people. And I had a horrible experience and I was able to take the worst thing that has ever happened in my life and make something out of it. And that process alone was really, like, cathartic. So I don't think about. I didn't think about that.

[Mike Pesca]

Is the honestness, the honesty and sincerity that you talk about your mom. Were you talking about honestly loving and bonding with your son in the same way? At the same time you are doing jokes where. About how much you love your son.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. And so that's a little off. Not the brand, but the kind of comedy you were drawn to for many, many years.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

It's honest, it's earnest, it's vulnerable. All this.

[Jenna Friedman]

Well, we grow up, right? I am not going to be 20, a childless 20 something. Going to parties at designer paper companies my whole life.

[Mike Pesca]

You will. So I want to read you this.

[Jenna Friedman]

This is, I think, the worst review anyone's ever.

[Mike Pesca]

This is, this is your. This is the timeout review from 2007. And it seems like the joke thievery runs deep. No, it's not. This is an Irene Carmen essay in the New York Times.

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

She wrote a book called I think, Unbearable, which is about. And yeah, yeah. Aaron Carmen. I r. I end. I wince when talking about what can be beautiful about bearing and raising children, not wanting to sound cloying, preening or prescriptive. And yet I worry that without more of those of us on the left highlighting that beauty, an important piece of the human story is eagerly and almost exclusively being told by the right wing. Do you agree? First of all, that's not funny. But do you agree?

[Jenna Friedman]

I think that. I think that's actually. That would have been like a fun place to start our conversation because I think. Think like, yeah. As like a comedian who's told abortion jokes for like over a decade and then you find yourself pregnant. It's like you're like, wait, what? And I do think the right, with the branding of. And I don't want to say right or left. I think the conservative movement.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

With the branding of pro life, has been able to hijack that away from other People. But I also think, you know, when you look at like their policy, like, perfect example is like the government shutdown. They're trying to take away funding for WIC and just feeding kids and the stuff that they're doing with guns where they're like, the number one cause of death for young people in America is firearm deaths. And so it's like they're not clearly not like the party that cares about kids. And I think everybody knows that, that if that, that was maybe my takeaway from that paragraph. But yeah, I mean, if you're. I don't know.

[Mike Pesca]

But I guess people on the left have to be. Irene is saying more pronatal with, to use the phrase that. J.D. vance.

[Jenna Friedman]

I don't think the term is pronatal. I think it's just like, well, Jessica Valenti does it really well. I mean, she. Like the majority of people who. And I said this in Lady Killer, it's like the majority of people who have abortions already have kids. And the joke is like, why? Because they get it fool me once I'm a mom. But it's like, like a lot of, like, the, you know, pro choice people already have kids. And so it's just like trying to dispel the narrative that, like, you know, abortion is for har or like, whatever. I don't know. It's still hard when you have to have to engage with a narrative like that because the whole narrative is, like, hollow. So it's like, how do you just talk about it as like, healthcare and like, you know, we, we want women and children in our country to thrive. And like, how do we make that happen? How do we give them access to actual resources? Like, there are more fake abortion clinics in the country than there are pregnancy crisis centers. Yeah. Then there are like, Planned Parenthoods and actual health clinics. And it's like, they, that's crazy.

[Mike Pesca]

So I want to ask you one more thing. Since a lot of the show or the title of the show is about the phrase the word motherfucker. Right. So this is something that the White House does. A journalist, there's specific journalist date who writes for the Huffington Post. He'll ask a legit question. Your, the question is, I don't know, something about why did Donald Trump or the Trump administration do this or that. And Carolyn Levitt responded to him. Your mom did the White House press secretary in exchange. That was later posted online, wrote, wrote that. And then Stephen Chang, another White House spokesperson, also followed up with your mom. And then New York Times notes, he, he, he Texted moments later invoking well worn maternal insult that, according to the Urban dictionary, is the most vertical, versatile diss slash comeback ever created in the history of your mom. My. My question.

[Jenna Friedman]

Tired.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Yeah. My question is, can you do something with the your mom as just an insult? If we're going to take motherfucker, how can your mom still be an insult in 2024? 5?

[Jenna Friedman]

I mean, I, like, envy those guys. It would be so fun to be a propagandist where you just, like, weren't tethered to, like, morality or facts and you could just be like, your mom. Like, I. That sounds fun.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, the New York Times defines it like that. Do you think they're doing, like, doing us a service?

[Jenna Friedman]

Like, without what's going on with the New York Times?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, without the definition of saying your mom is an insult. That goes way back.

[Jenna Friedman]

Really hard for legacy media companies to report on this moment and, like, synthesize. I think it's really hard for a lot of us to understand what's going on, myself included, because, like, the news is changing so fast and you have people saying crazy all the time that if you're trying to approach it like, we're still living in an era of, like, sanity and, you know, cohesion, you're gonna end up failing.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

I don't have answers.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you have jokes?

[Jenna Friedman]

Barely.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jenna Friedman]

Definitely put them all out on the table for this pod.

[Mike Pesca]

They're all there. It's all, when Mitch McConnell dies, do you have to change your joke?

[Jenna Friedman]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

What do you have the next guy you got to change it to?

[Jenna Friedman]

Is he gonna die?

[Mike Pesca]

He will die. I've seen the actuarial table thinking it's

[Jenna Friedman]

gonna happen any day, and it's just not.

[Mike Pesca]

Jenna Friedman's new special, which she may be touring to a city near you, especially if you live in New York, is called Motherfucker.

[Jenna Friedman]

It's funny. This podcast is so funny between us.

[Mike Pesca]

And that's it for today's show. Cory War produces the gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the gist list. Ben Astaire is our booking producer, and Jeff Craig runs our socials. Michelle Pesca oversees it all. Benevolently improve and thanks for listening.

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