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Foreign
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It's Friday, April 3, 2026, from Peach Fish Productions. I'm Mike Pesca, and today is a funny youy should mention Friday. And I feel a little conflicted when I heartily endorse one of the guests. Maybe I go effusive or even a bit over the top, because I say to myself, well, then by comparison, what if I don't give that amount of lavish praise to all the guests? Well, first of all, I have different opinions about different guests. And some guests, no guests have been horrid. But some guests are fine. Or, you know, most have been much better than fine. But some guests I consider great. Some guests I consider great as guests. Some guests I consider greatest comics. So I say all that as preface to what I'm about to say about Renan Hirschberg. The guy sucks. No, quite the opposite. This is, I believe, Renan Hirschberg's moment. He's been doing this for a while, and he's inherently funny and is a good take on comedy. Great delivery. We talk about a certain comparison. Maybe if you're a comedy connoisseur, especially comedians from New Jersey connoisseur, and Renan's from Louisville, Kentucky. But you'll hear what I ask him deep in the interview. But Renan Hirshberg is a pro. He's been getting laughs for a while, but with his latest special, I think it's his moment. Now, sometimes when a comedian meets the zeitgeist, it's because the culture is ready for them, and sometimes it's too soon. Nanette and Hannah Gadsby, that was where a comedian met the moment and everything exploded into a confluence. Right. Sometimes it's just a comedian who is so on their game, it's hard to ignore how funny they are. Renan has a little bit of that. But I think that Renan's material, which we talk about a lot about antisemitism, a lot about he's really the only one who has found a good way to bring up October 7th in Israel. I think for me, that he's doing things that nobody else is doing. But I will also acknowledge that maybe it's the exact opposite. And maybe when Nanette exploded, the culture and the guardians of the culture were quite open to that message. And maybe what Renan is doing is just appealing to me as the exception to an overall moment. Well, it doesn't matter. That actually makes things funnier when you have a little bit of a frison of danger. And I think that's really what comedians are supposed to do. Are saying truths that others don't or at least points of view. That's why I started Funny. You should mention. Tell me about your actual point of view and can you defend it? And I found after a couple years doing this show, a few years, especially on this one issue, I don't know that the world of comedy is exactly what you'd hope it would be. That there is a freewheeling take no prisoners. We just follow the funny aesthetic. I think that a lot of people have been a little intimidated out of going and touching every third rail. But Renan has found a way. I love this interview. I couldn't recommend his stand up special more. Renan Hirschberg, morbidly Jewish. I'm funny. You should mention.
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A
It's true. He is an evil piece of. But it's also a cliche. So the other way people go is they start endorsing him or saying they like him. They just go for the contrarian thing. And then I did go on the. This is. I will say this is before he endorsed Trump.
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B
Okay.
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A
So I do want to make.
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B
He feels bad about it now. He's criticized the war a little.
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A
Well, he doesn't feel bad about him. He's just like. It's just everything seems so crazy. Yeah.
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B
He is basically the Tucker Carlson viewer.
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A
I wish instead of like a conspiracy theorist, he had someone on who like, like explain. Cause.
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B
Hello, welcome back to Funny. You should mention the show where I talk to comedians and we talk about sometimes the truths behind their jokes. And, you know, I don't like to play favorites, but if I had to fast becoming one is my current guest, Renan Hirshberg, whose new special is morbidly Jewish. I guess you could have gone with orthodox Leo Beast or something would have been the inverse.
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A
I guess I could have. I didn't go through all the options when I.
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B
When you name specials. Because your last one was brave. Is it the thing that you think will hook the listener? Viewer, as in what does he mean? Or the biggest callback of a joke.
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A
I know it's really tough titles. It takes me a long time. Because, you know, if you're doing a solo show, there's like a theme that you can, you know, but with a stand up. A lot of times it is kind of like, like, you know, just random jokes.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it's real. So the title is like arbitrary. It's really hard for me personally to think of a title. Cause it could be so many different things. You know, I've done a couple solo shows where like that I know the title from the beginning. Right. But with standup, it's really. I'm like. I'm like, rack my brain. And then eventually, I asked, like, a billion people and just kind of decide something. I think with Brave just in my head, I just noticed that, like, no one would even. I say it once, and, like, I say it once, but really I just put it in there because I guess I remember at the time people talking about certain comedians being brave. Right. And I remember thinking, well, that's just something you say. If the comedian's not funny, you'll be like, they're brave, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah.
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B
Put your brave receptors together, right? Are you ready to laugh? Someone's funny because.
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A
Yeah, if someone's funny, you'll just say they're funny.
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B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
So I was like, oh, that's a funny title. I'll just call it Brave. And that's actually really funny. After I called it that, I was in the Strand and I saw Rose McGowan had a book, and it was just her memoir. It was just called Brave. And I'm like, the audacity to write a memoir where you're calling yourself brave, which is what I was making fun of. But the fact that she did that, seriously brave is something other people should call you. You can't just be, like, brave. But it's just funny that my joke was a serious MeToo memoir.
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B
It was, well, a couple things. Truth in advertising. It wasn't funny. I assume the Rose Mc.
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A
I don't think it was trying to be funny. So achieved. I don't think she was going for laughs.
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B
Yeah. And then, you know, you're.
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A
You're so Harvey Weinstein jacking off in a plant. That part is kind of funny on
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behalf of the plant is brave. It's a brave action by the ficus.
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A
It really showed you how little, like, how sexist people are that, like, more people knew about the plant than the victims.
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B
That's right.
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A
Like, we heard all about the victims. And they're like, go back to that plant. Like, more people knew it was a fica than they knew most of the women's names. They're like. They're like, he raped 40 women and jacked off to a plan. And they're like, what? What about this plant? Like, that's how we low. We view women that are under plan.
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B
That's right. Wait, wait, wait. Back up. Deciduous conifer. Because that would be next level. Exactly. You know, she was deciduous. She was trying to get ahead. The plant was. Yeah, I know. Trying to get different.
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A
Get into, you know, Little Shop of Horrors.
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B
So few roles for plants these days. Exactly.
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A
But. But yeah. So anyway, so that was just mocking. That was just mocking the idea of calling yourself brave. And then this last one, I was actually gonna call it Cruelty Free, because I had a bit about that. About shampoo. Cruelty Free shampoo. And then I think I posted a clip of, like, Morbidly Jewish. Like. Like that bit. Yeah. And people were like, this has got to be your title. And I'm like, all right, I'll. I guess I'll just do what the audience.
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B
Well, Food Line is. Both of those describe you. As opposed to Cruelty Free as an option.
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A
Exactly. It is a really. It is definitely a good title for me because it is. Captures my essence. Morbidly Jewish. And then Judaism is a big thread through your life. My life, and especially that last hour. And it's also a funny title. And it's the first time I actually tried to be funny. I try not to be funny with titles because I think it's silly to be funny. But then you can also be pretentious. Titles are really hard because you don't want to be pretentious and you don't want to be, like, funny.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So it's like. So you end up being boring.
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B
You want to be a little profound. But the line between pretension and profound, that margin.
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A
So honestly, you can't be anything. Like, all the titles that work are, like, so basic. Like, you can't try for anything. Or that's pretentious. Because I like to think of, like, novel, like, long kind of titles. You can't do that. You don't want to be like the, you know, wacky. It's like someone with a wacky headshot. You know, that person's not funny, you know, but. But morbidly Jewish. I was like, all right, that's funny enough. So, yeah. So I just called it.
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B
And then long titles do lend themselves to everything everywhere, all at once. I know.
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A
Calls. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
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B
What does she call it?
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A
Oh, that's an old bit of mine. What does she call it? Everything Asian. I can't remember.
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B
Everything Asian all the time, which would be good.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Good movie.
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A
I noticed that. That show. Landman, Billy Bob, Thor. It feels like they named it what my mom was going to wrongly call every mom was going to wrongly call it. They're like, let's just call it what Every Mom. Oh, I love that show. What? Landman.
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B
There's also. When your parents get even a little older, like mine, are they don't even get the titles wrong. It becomes an exercise. And. Oh, it's with that guy who is in that thing with the other guy. And like, there's not one preposition.
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A
Yeah.
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B
There's not one proper noun involved. Like, if you just ever said that
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was directed, like, yeah, you're beginning Wheel of Fortune first round. I know you have a lot of,
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like, all the vows are on the board and nothing else. Yeah, exactly.
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Fun game.
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B
But also, how do you know if the title's right? That's the thing. Like, for any title. Like, obviously, Chris Rock, Bring the Pain, that title was right. But with that special, you could title it anything.
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A
Exactly. It's arbitrary. I mean, like, for him, he wanted, like, kind of like. What do you call it? Like a very grandiose, cocky kind of.
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B
Right.
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Almost like. I feel like he said maybe. I don't know, but something. It felt like. Like just like really aggressive. But that works if you're black. Can't do that if you're white. That's just obnoxious. No one wants to see a confident white.
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B
Well, the Jew could be. Bring the. The Pain Upon My people.
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A
Yeah. Well, David Cross actually did have an album title called Bigger and Blacker.
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B
If there was ever a guy didn't give a shit about making the audience like him.
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A
That's right. There's one funny title, and I'll give a shout out. I think it's the only really funny title, in my opinion. And it's Louis Katz. She has an album called if these Balls Could Talk. I think that is, like, the only actual funny title. I think most, like, most attempts at, like, funny titles are bad, and most people don't. Most comedians do not. Like, if you look at Louie or Bill Burr, it's all just like one word kind of bullshit, you know? Right. But. But yeah, so it's hard to. It's hard to know what's. Titles are tough. A lot of great moves, bad titles,
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you know, and also when those guys. When Bill Burr and Louis, like, they can't get it wrong. So if you go conservative, if you're them and just describe it kind of without too much wanting people to like you, you're fine. When you're. I'm not saying just starting out. I know you've been a comedian for 17 years, but when you're really hoping that everything you do gets noticed, which is sort of the opposite of what Bill and Louis situation is, it's a different consideration.
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A
Right. You got to stand out. Yeah.
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B
And then I'd also think that you're so good at people like you. You specifically, the craftsmanship of a short phrase in a joke form. But everyone knows what the assignment is. And then there is a reaction, which is the involuntary response of laughter.
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A
Right.
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B
Doesn't happen with a title.
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A
No. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Titles are. Titles are. Are very hard, you know, But. Yeah, but I'm. I'm happy with the last one. I actually think it helped because it, like, it gave it some kind of. Like, I got more pressed for it because it was Jewish in the title.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Jew is a buzzword now. I didn't know that.
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B
It's nice every time someone drives into a synagogue with a gun. I should get 10 more hits.
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A
It's a kid.
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B
It's good.
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A
And four, very problematic for the people who don't think anti Semitism is real. You can really chart it. Cause when I used to go to synagogue as a kid, it was the most boring thing in the world. And now I'm too afraid to go now. It's so scary. I'm, like, afraid I was there. Like, it's like an action movie. It used to be so boring. And now you're, like, just looking around like, boring Ultimatum. It's really like, that's how you chart anti Semitism. The. The level of excitement of just going to synagogue.
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B
That's right. The action used to be davening back and forth. Now it's head on a swivel. Now you have all dimensions being changed. This is dominant.
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A
Jerusalem is all around us.
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B
But was there ever an in between period, an interregnum from totally boring to. You might die at any moment. Is there ever the sweet sp spot?
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A
It was boring. And then I don't go anymore. And now I see other people. Now it's a thrill. Now it's an extreme sport. Yeah. I don't know. It's kind of funny. When they had the. When they had the every event. Every Jewish event's just a massacre now. When they had the one in Sydney, you know, it got to me so much. There's like a part of me that's like, man, I think I want to go to, like, a Hanukkah event to, you know. But then I'm like, I don't want to go to that. I get put in this thing where I'm like, I want to be, like, proud to be Jewish, but I also don't.
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B
But then you'd be at a Hanukkah.
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A
Yeah, then I'd be at a Hanukkah. And then
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B
dealt and none and Then
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A
on top of that, I could die while bored out of my fucking mind. And also, like, I would not be dying doing what I loved.
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Celebration of, like, this minor miracle at this point.
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A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. A little oil, a good deal on a lamp, you know. Yeah, yeah. No. So it's like, yeah, it's tough because it's like, it's tough when you're, like, a secular Jew. Because it's like, I want to, I want to. Especially now I'm very aware of anti Semitism. I want to, like, show my Judaism. But I'm also like, it's bullshit.
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B
I want to support this religion that I definitely.
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A
Put you in a. Really put you in a bind. But then, but then you're like, I guess it's, you know, I guess that is Judah. It's like an act of defiance or something, you know?
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B
Yes.
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Wasn't so boring. I would, I would do it.
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B
Then there's the, you know, idea of the cultural Jew. But you were the cultural and religious Jew who made a conscious decision about the religion.
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A
I grew up Conservative Judaism. Yeah. And kept kosher until college. Yeah. And I still, I have a lot of respect for Judaism. I don't, you know, I, you know, I don't, like, dismiss people who are practicing and, you know, I think it's an interesting religion. I just, I really just. It's boring. I, I, it's like, I, I'd love to practice. I, I'm just, in theory, I'd like to. It's like doing charity work.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, in theory, I want to do it. Yeah.
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B
Or like, when you read about one of these guys who is raw foods movement. That sounds interesting.
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A
Yeah. Yeah, it's so, but it's like, yeah, it's so boring.
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B
Everything.
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A
But I like, I mean, I do like a lot of Judaism, and I think the Bible is, Is, like, very funny. Like, I went, my, my, My, uh, friend's daughter had a bat mitzvah, and I was just in there just reading the Bible. I wasn't following the service. I was just, like, reading the Bible, which. The Bible is, like, very funny. It's just very, like, human.
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B
Yes.
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A
Like, I just flipped to a part. I remember it was just like, God telling, like, Sarah, Abraham's wife that she was going to have a kid, even
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B
though she's, like, really old, like in her hundreds.
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A
Yeah. And she just laughs. She just laughs in God's face. And God's like, are you laughing? And then she goes, no. So she's just lying, laughing. No, that wasn't laughing. Yeah, it's like, it's just kind of. It's very human. I mean, it's. I like it more. I'm biased because I grew up in it, but I like it more than the New Testament. I think it's more like human frailty as opposed to like human perfection. With Jesus, you know, I like the
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B
idea of then Sarah saying something like, for the record, I wasn't laughing. And then God's like, just so you know, the record will be more of
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A
the record than anything ever has been. The record. Yeah, this. Yeah. And I also know what's also funny. Doesn't God just know that?
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B
She's like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff about God taking offense.
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A
Why are you fucking asking me?
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B
Enraged. The all knowing person who shot.
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A
Well, he's like the wife who asks a question, but she already knows you've been caught. You know, she's like, where were you know what I mean? It's like you already know. Yeah, exactly. You already know. So why are you asking me?
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B
All the Jews did was dig themselves deep.
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A
Oh, no, no. The images were raven. Why is there an apple taken off that tree? He should have just been like, you fucking know. You know everything. Why are you asking me? Actually that's what with Cain, I feel like, no, he said, am I my brother's keeper? Yeah, he's like, in my brother. Brother's keeper. And God's like, yeah, yeah. In fact, we're going to use that quote.
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B
That's right. We're going to do Market Kane. We're going to do. You have no idea how many idioms you are going to spawn, sir. And also, like, when Cain and Abel are born, does he even get them presents, knowing what will happen?
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A
Right, right. Yeah. And then he.
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B
Or baby shower. More like a. Well, this one's not going to turn out so good.
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A
There's a great thing though, in that story. I was flipping through that too. I remember the time where they. When he kills Abel. In Hebrew, the word is for blood. His blood spills out, but it's plural, it's bloods. And the interpretation is that, like, it's not when you kill somebody, not just killing him, you're killing all the future generations.
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B
Wow.
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A
And I'm like, that is true every time you kill someone, unless. Unless they're not playing to have kids and who gives a shit, but every time you kill someone, you're kind of killing like millions of people.
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B
This is from the Clint Eastwood movie, the Unforgiven.
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A
All right. At the end, killing everyone every Killing someone ever. Everything they're gonna do, everything they're ever gonna. What's the line? It's a great line.
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B
Everything. Yeah, we could cut to it.
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A
It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. It's a hell of a thing, killing a man.
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B
Take away all he's got and all
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A
he's ever gonna do. It's a great park, great movie.
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B
So, as you mentioned, you grew up going to temple. I don't know if we've established you're a Louisville guy. A Kentucky guy.
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A
Kentucky. You're a sports writer, you said.
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B
I was a. I did. I did a lot of sports coverage,
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A
you know, and stuff.
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B
I'm a giant St. John's fan. I forgive him for everything. I forgive him for having sex on the floor of the restaurant. The man was blackmailed.
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A
He was blackmailed.
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B
The funny thing about that. I hope we lose the whole.
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A
Had to talk about him prematurely ejaculating in trial under oath. Everything he did got.
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B
Well, I don't want to say got him off, but accrued to his defense is the victim of blackmail.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
What you have to do is show all the things that she was blackmailing you about.
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A
Yeah.
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B
No.
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A
And they had to say, like, sex lasted 13 seconds.
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B
So you're a sports fan or just a fan of those details?
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A
Just a fan of those details. I'm actually not a sports guy. So, like, I mean, I grew up. My family's die hard UFL fans. Yeah. So I grew up, like, kind of in that, though. I'm not a big sports guy. And so I mainly know athletes just from the crimes. Like, so, like, I know athletes only if they've raped or murdered. That I'm like, I know that, like
- [19:44]
B
Lamar Odom probably, or what. Lamar Odom, you probably know. Dating Kardashians and eating too much candy and even that.
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A
I was like, is that the guy from Hamilton?
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B
He was awesome when him and Dave Diggs did that alley.
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A
Oop. I mean, I mostly know. Yeah. From either murder, Zucker Brothers movies, or both in the case of O.J. simpson.
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B
Well, the funny thing, among the funny things about Pitino was that every time he would have. Or they would have a press conference during his trial for being blackmailed, and it would be serious stuff and it would be, you know, there was like, sexual assault and he paid for someone's porch and all this. The press conference would be at the Yum Center.
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A
Yeah.
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B
KFC Yum Brands. Today at the Yum Center. Rick Patino.
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A
Rick Patino denies Ray at the Yum Center.
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B
Yum Center.
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A
Benino denies anything inappropriate at the Yummy Yummy Yum Center.
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B
Right. You know, when it's that serious a background, you don't go to the hallowed grounds of the Yum center and lie
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A
about these stupid names.
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B
Little bit.
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A
Stupid fucking name.
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B
Well, what about the. So you're not a sports fan, but the Sacramento Kings used to play at the Sleep Train Arena?
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A
Sleep Train?
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B
Yes. I don't know. It's like a mattress company, only in the Sacramento, in the roofy house, the house of blackouts.
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A
By the way, in the Epstein file, and I saw a quote. They had a New York Times article about the comedians who were all like, who went there, you know? But there's one part where Woody Allen. It's really. Woody Allen's, like, reaching a new level of cancellation. Like, you think you've gone as far as you can go, and then you've like. It's like Journey to the center of the Earth of Cancellation. But there's a part in it where he's, like, just defending Bill Cosby, and he's like, I can't believe Bill Cosby is getting so persecuted. And then he's like, whatever you can say about the man, it's not like he killed anyone. It's like, yeah, but that's rape. Rape is bad. Yes, I think we're already in agreement that rape is not murder, but it's bad.
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B
Woody Allen, who we thought maybe had some insight into the character of humanity, has articulated that there's only one crime that you can commit.
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A
Everything else is fine. He's following the Ten Commandments. There's no rape in the Ten Commandments.
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B
Yeah, it's true.
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A
You're not allowed to be jealous of your friend's slaves, but you can rape someone.
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B
Maybe there's a coveting thy neighbor oxen claws that could apply. I don't know.
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A
But yeah, it's. Yeah, he's not looking. I did this joke I posted online. It did very well. It was a joke. I just said something like, I don't think Woody Allen did it. I don't think he's the kind of guy who cheated on his daughter, you know? And it became a meme. People stole it. Yeah. And then it was great because I got then accused of stealing a meme. It was awesome. And. But the joke meant a lot to me because I am a big Woody Allen fan, and I got into comedy by reading Woody Allen in high school.
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B
I remember Without Feathers.
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A
Well, I've read all of them, but Side Effects is the one I started reading. I just remember reading a line and it was like a misdirect. And it just really hit some brain receptor where I'm like, oh, I love this misdirect. And I got into comedy right then. So he really made me into. He really got me into comedy. That was like my beginning. And that joke is, to me, like a Woody Allen joke.
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B
So it's like, do you remember the original line, the misdirect?
- [23:03]
A
It was something about. It was actually, in hindsight, maybe more of a goofy image. It was something about. It was making fun of some, like some brilliant thinker who's not grounded. And there's something about how he put his coat on, but he's so absent minded, he'd forget to take his hanger out of the coat before he put it on. It actually wasn't, I guess, a classic misdirect as much as a. But the way it was written felt like so, like there was just this moment where you just laugh. But you know his great joke. You see this watch? My grandfather on his deathbed, he sold me this watch, you know, and he was the best misdirect person. And I learned from him that the power of a misdirect is, I think, like the fewest amount of words should create the biggest gap of expectations. So if you have that.
- [23:49]
B
Yeah.
- [23:50]
A
And he was the king of it, obviously. Rodney Dangerfield. You know, me and my wife were happy for 25 years and then we met. You know, one word.
- [23:58]
B
Yeah.
- [23:58]
A
Show the whole thing. But me and my. You see this watch? My grandfather on my deathbed. He's on his deathbed. He sold me this watch is to be like such a perfect joke. So when I go, I don't think he's the kind of guy who cheated on his daughter. It's like, it's like me attacking my hero, his influence.
- [24:16]
B
Now, your current special, Morbidly Jewish. Starts off. Your special. Start off with a bang. They start off with comedy and then the titles come up and the comedy there is.
- [24:26]
A
It's the.
- [24:26]
B
You have at least three jokes about having sex with your mother. Yeah, but that I think technically is a misdirect in the beginning, right? Because you start off by saying, my girlfriend says, don't talk about me, talk about an ex girlfriend or maybe my mom.
- [24:41]
A
And then I. Yeah, so it's not technically. It's not technically talking about it, Right. Which is that anytime I do a joke about my girlfriend that she finds, like, a little too vulnerable, I should say it's about an example yeah. Or I should say it's about my mom because I do a lot of mom jokes. So I was going down to my mom last night, but it's funny, my mom. I had a joke in my other special about my mom and she said, don't use any more. Please don't do any more dirty jokes about me.
- [25:13]
B
Yeah.
- [25:13]
A
And then I opened the special saying literally the line going down on my mom.
- [25:17]
B
Yes.
- [25:18]
A
And I was like, I felt bad, but at the same time.
- [25:20]
B
You mean going down in your mind.
- [25:23]
A
Well, there is a real psychological thing with. With me doing.
- [25:26]
B
Yeah, Freud talked. Oh, I see.
- [25:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, Freud. But it's more than that too. It's like. I think my whole family was a little. I come from a very good family. But there was like this repressiveness and my mom always hated dirty language. And I think me being. Even though I'm not like that dirty of a comic, when I am dirty, it feels like some kind of form of rebellion. So when I'm dirty about her, it's this ultimate like weird rebel, you know, and the Freudian thing. But she saw that joke and she didn't get it. She was like, what is going down? So she didn't even know. So it worked out fine. Yeah.
- [25:57]
B
Was the joke she didn't like about getting women back to your place? Only it wasn't your place, it was a base. Her picture was above your parents bed.
- [26:05]
A
Actually. No, it was the one, right. God, I have something on every one of them. It was the one, right? It was the jokes from the Underground.
- [26:12]
B
Yeah.
- [26:13]
A
That's one of my more pretentious titles. And it was.
- [26:16]
B
You literally taped it at the Village Underground. So what are you gonna do?
- [26:18]
A
But a Dostoevsky. Yeah, I know she's a little pretentious, but. But I stand by H over here. Yeah, but it was something about. She's like. When it's something about my mom doesn't like dirty jokes or she's like. I was. It was a bit about how I was on the phone with my mom and my mom was like, I don't like when you do dirty material. It really turns me off. Like she just wrongly used that term.
- [26:41]
B
Yeah.
- [26:41]
A
And then it just. It's just a bit about that.
- [26:43]
B
That just go.
- [26:44]
A
Yeah.
- [26:44]
B
So I assume your girlfriend really did say that. Because it shouldn't have to. But I assume some conversation of. About my name about an ex girlf.
- [26:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's been a problem then.
- [26:55]
B
What happens in comedy is like, you could say. Or a non comedian might say, oh, I'VE just been clamped down upon. I've just had a rule put upon me. But in fact, it's kind of liberating. What is comedy except operating within these rules and strictures?
- [27:09]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:10]
B
More creative.
- [27:11]
A
Yeah, exactly. I think. I mean, we had a couple of therapists. I'm pretty sure the couple's therapist recommended. Maybe she was recommended doing another girlfriend's name. Yeah. But then I. You know what it was? I think I had a joke a while ago about a girlfriend that I made into my mom. So I always. In my head, it was. It was like it was nothing. Nothing sexual, but it was like I just thought it was something funnier. If my mom was saying was this long bit I did about someone saying, I can't believe it's already April. This long bit about, like, how insane the world is, and yet the thing you can't believe is that time is moving forward. And I just list every craziest thing that happened in the air. Yeah, yeah, but. But I think in my head at one point I was probably like, oh, maybe I'll do it. Like, when I do a joke about her, I'll say it's about a girlfriend or my mom. And that kind of. Yeah, that sparked it a little, I guess.
- [27:59]
B
It is funny, though. The. I can't believe it's April. It's a cousin of. On the bottom of a page, a webpage will be, look at these celebrities and you won't believe what they look like now. And it turns out the people we knew at 20, 30 years later looked like they're all. Yeah, but the article that. And more people will click that than the article. And the article itself will be, you know, Trump says he wants to invade Greenland.
- [28:21]
A
And it's like the way Jennifer Gray is 50, it's always, it's. Yeah, it's like, Trump, fucking Trump's gonna nuke the moon. Next to Timothee Chalamet says ballet isn't doing well financially.
- [28:35]
B
Timothy Chalamet, Cassie Chalamet on the robust
- [28:39]
A
art brings up the actual truth that ballet needs funding to survive while movies rely on taking post.
- [28:46]
B
So another thing I wanted to ask you about. You said your cousin had a bat Mitzvah and you do a joke about that in the latest. I think it's the latest special. Maybe it's the one before.
- [28:55]
A
No, it's the last.
- [28:55]
B
Okay, so you do say she's reading. I forgot what you said. Maybe something like she's reading the Bible or the section of the Bible. But of course, a Jew would say her Torah portion?
- [29:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:05]
B
Is there a lot of, as they say, code switching? When, if you were to play a temple or Jewish audience do, would you go back with Torah portions?
- [29:14]
A
That was funny with that bit. I really didn't know if it was gonna do well because I didn't know if people were gonna understand it, which is funny. I mean, it's not like, I don't know, it's not so esoteric, I guess. But like, in my head I was just like, am I gonna be able to explain? Because I do have to explain a little of what a bat mitvah is. My cousin had a bat mitzvah. It is reformed, you know, that's where you do the whole service in english. So the 13 year old girl had to go on stage in front of everyone and read the selected part. And like not every part of the Bible holds up. So she, it was like 300 people, her parents behind her, and she's just on stage. He has to open to the part and she's just like, when a slave offends you, you cut off his right arm. And then his parents, her parents are behind her. Like, that's my girl. So I just, I just, you know, I grew up in Kentucky, like learning how to make rednecks laugh. So where I, when I talk about Judaism, I talk about it from a place where I want other people to understand it. I'm not like modi or where it's like, you're only performing to Jews. Right. So I just naturally try to explain in a way that even if you're not Jewish, you, you get it now if I'm talking, if I'm doing a Jewish gig. Yeah. Obviously I don't have to explain it fully, but I mean, by the way, the way I explain it in it is also, like, probably incorrect in many ways. I just try to explain a way that an audience can get it, you know? Right. And that line is not. The first line is from the Bible when a slave offends you. But everything else I made up to be like, barbaric. I don't really care because there's enough barbaric stuff in the Bible that it's like. But a couple of people really got mad at me, like online. I mean, the whole point of being online is to get mad at you, so whatever. But some people got mad, like, that's not what it says. You're a disservice to Jews. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm just trying to, like, I'm just trying to have the right wording for the joke. And the first line's real. And also there's so many fucked up shit in the Bible. Like what? There's a part where they. The Noah. Where they. The daughters rape Noah. They get them drunk and Abraham, right? No, Noah.
- [31:05]
B
It was Noah. Yeah, yeah, I know that. I know. Daughters were raping some founder of the religion. People are like, in a cave.
- [31:10]
A
Yeah. Like, religious people are trying to like, boycott Harry Potter.
- [31:13]
B
I'm telling you, it was Abraham.
- [31:15]
A
There's no. There's no, like, father rape in. In Harry Potter, you know? No, it's actually really funny.
- [31:22]
B
There's Dumbledore.
- [31:24]
A
It's actually really funny. Ari Aster, who's, I think a great director. His. You know Ari Aster, right?
- [31:28]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:29]
A
He. His first short film is called God was the Johnson. Something's wrong with the Johnson. Yeah. About a son raping a father.
- [31:37]
B
Yeah.
- [31:38]
A
He had.
- [31:38]
B
His first couple films were very incesty.
- [31:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. But that one was like. He was trying to think of the worst tab and yet. And it's a great movie. It's a short film. It's great. It's very disturbing. And he was trying to think of the worst taboo ever to shock people. And the worst thing the most fucked up mind right now could think of is still a chapter in the Bible.
- [31:59]
B
The guy whose great masterpiece is throwing old people off a cliff is like,
- [32:05]
A
well, let's go back to his craziest imagination. He's still just getting chapter two of
- [32:10]
B
the Bible at his most fervid and disturbing. Yeah, yeah, so. So you do a lot of humor. I've heard you talking on other shows about how you know where the joke is and you know where the punchline is. And it seems to me that a lot of your craft is not thinking of the funny thing, but orienting the audience sufficiently so that they understand that it's funny.
- [32:34]
A
Oh, like getting like, how much do
- [32:37]
B
I have to explain? How much do I have to let them in on so they really can join me in this moment? That's absurd. You see these absurdities, naturally, they occur to you as absurd. And then you have to, you know, put in the groundwork in the shortest amount of words so that they're with you.
- [32:53]
A
Right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I think. I think the best comedy is when you make people see that something they think is normal is absurd.
- [33:03]
B
Right.
- [33:03]
A
And I've noticed actually a lot of bad comedy now that's become very popular is actually doing the opposite. It's normalizing the absurdity. So the world's crazy. And people go on these clips of standups doing hack jokes about topical shit that has no point of view, and that's normalizing the absurdity. The world is absurd. I'm gonna just give you these comforting hack jokes to calm you down. But the best comedy is when you take something that people think is normal and you remind them how crazy it is. That's why it's such a challenge right now politically, because stuff is so absurd already. The comedians kind of doesn't have. Their job is kind of being taken over a little because everyone now sees the absurdity.
- [33:46]
B
Right.
- [33:47]
A
It was Trump. It's like we all are aware it's absurd. It's not like you're making fun of something Gerald Ford did that we all saw was serious. So it is very difficult now politically, to do comedy like that. Cause it's like, how do you. If the comedian's job is to remind people how absurd the world is that they've taken for granted as something normal, what is a comedian's job when so many. When we're all so aware of the absurdity?
- [34:12]
B
Right. So one version of that is Mulaney's horse in a hospital. Right.
- [34:15]
A
That goes.
- [34:15]
B
Well, now we understand that. Wow, you're putting. You're shifting my mind 10 degrees. And now I see it for what it is. You know, there was. I don't want to say lens, because that sounds postmodern, but I'm kind of looking at this through normal glasses, and he just makes me.
- [34:28]
A
Wow.
- [34:28]
B
But another version of that. You and Dove Davidoff both have a joke that relies on really one thing that Trump said. And Trump has said many things, but Dove will do 15 minutes on this one crazy thing. And your version of that is. It's not something maybe Trump said, but that people say on behalf of Trump's. Trump, he cares about Israel. And that's because you're off on the absurdity of him caring about anything, that the two things he cares.
- [34:55]
A
And I guess that is something that if I am. That is something people are thinking is normal. So. Right. So, like, as opposed to, like, a hack thing where, like. Because I see a lot of comedians making fun of Trump in a way that is so boring, where you're like, we already know he's crazy. You know, I mean, like, I see a lot of comedians. Like, I've seen comedians try to make fun of the absurdity of him. Like, attacking a celebrity. Yeah. Like, can you believe he attacked that celebrity? It's like, he's a. He is from the Apprentice Yeah. And you might as well just be like, can you believe Trump is president? You know what I mean?
- [35:27]
B
And I can't believe it. Cuz he's done a three times.
- [35:30]
A
So that's, that's normalizing the absurdity. Right. That it's like a cliche. I guess there's the Israel thing. And this is just for me. It's like I know so many people who legitimately think he cares about Israel.
- [35:42]
B
Cares about Israel.
- [35:42]
A
Yeah. That's the key to the joke.
- [35:44]
B
Not that he has a policy that actually helps.
- [35:46]
A
That he does. Yeah.
- [35:48]
B
That he cares about anything other than Trump and Trump.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah. Just, it's just a simple joke. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:55]
B
The direction of the Jewish people.
- [35:57]
A
Yeah. I only care about three things. Money, whores and a homeland for the Jews. Yeah. Like, it's like, it's, it's, it's this insanity. It's like how. I mean, I guess that's the thing with Trump. It's just like he's so obviously a sociopath and people still don't realize it. But anyway, so that's that. At least I was reacting to something where I guess our. At least people I'm trying to offend maybe, or trying to point out something where I see a lot of comedy now and I'm guilty of it too. I've done some easy Trump jokes. Trump is very tempting to make bad jokes because Trump is funny. So oftentimes you're just kind of reminding people that he did something funny and that's the bad joke. Trump is a little like, I see a lot of crowd work videos where the heckler is clearly funny and it's like you're just, he's the one doing the work. So a lot of Trump's jokes, you can't, you don't want to do the shit where it's like you're really just recounting something he did that's funny.
- [36:55]
B
Right, Right. And the late night, that's more about
- [36:57]
A
people's reaction to him than him.
- [36:58]
B
So it's fine. I think it's fine to have a. Well, it's all fine. Right. It's art. And I don't do it and you do it and you're allowed to castigate your peers. But I find that the late night comics have this role and this role is instant reaction. And it would be great if they got to a better place. But if what they're doing is. Did you hear what Trump said?
- [37:15]
A
That's normaliz the absurdity. The late night people are the ultimate all castigate. I'VE done my late night. I don't need to do it anymore.
- [37:23]
B
Don't worry.
- [37:23]
A
It's also going away. It's also going away.
- [37:25]
B
You were the last one.
- [37:26]
A
They, they all normalize the absurdity. They all take this crazy thing and make us not think about it and just go.
- [37:34]
B
They get the laugh on just repeating what?
- [37:36]
A
Zombie. It's zombie. Yeah. And you can hear it. You can hear it. Bill Maher is weirdly more. Even though he's like can be controversial in the way he. In his debates, his opening monologue might be the most zombified. But you can hear the people in the audience. It's just like a zombie laugh. Like ha ha. Trump, he is crazy. And it's just like. But that's the interesting challenge with Trump. Cause I don't think you should give up on making fun of him. If you wanna make fun of him, I think you should try to make fun of him and think of a good joke. The problem too is that you have the two bad ways people have gone with Trump. Cuz he has a challenge to comedy is you have this left the liberal, normalizing the absurdity, just kind of saying what he said.
- [38:19]
B
Do you believe this guy jokes once? Do you believe this guy? Can you believe that you're making a bad.
- [38:23]
A
That's cliche. But then you have the other version. And this is why Trump comedians endorse Trump or support him. So many comedians just want to play devil's advocate and think of the less just to think of like the thing that people aren't saying. Right? So Trump being a piece of shit is such a cliche that a lot of comedians are like oh, I like the guy. Cuz they're just used to being contrarians.
- [38:46]
B
Right?
- [38:46]
A
And there, and there is nothing more cliche than Trump's a fucking asshole. Right? That's the most cliche thing in the world. It's true, he is an evil piece of shit, but it's also a cliche. So the other way people go is they start endorsing him or saying they like him, they just go for the contrarian thing. So yeah, the hard thing is like how do you actually make fun of him in a way that's not cliched, people? I mean there are some great Trump jokes. I still think to this day it's very simple. I think it was before he became president, this comic had this joke. It's great. He's like Trump always looks like he just got done from hanging upside down. And I always thought that was such a Great.
- [39:31]
B
So the endorsement jokes, where do you put a Shane Gillis or an Andrew Schulz, who I know Schulz doesn't endorse.
- [39:37]
A
Like, Schultz did endorse him.
- [39:38]
B
Endorsed him. Really?
- [39:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's all okay because he feels bad now as the world falls apart, let's take comfort in the fact that Andrew Schultz feels bad. Shane's jokes about Trump are always brilliant. But Shane's a brilliant comic. So it's like.
- [39:58]
B
But he also does have the contrarian streak in him.
- [40:01]
A
He does? Yeah, he does. Well, he does.
- [40:04]
B
Doesn't stop there. Is this the point?
- [40:06]
A
Yeah.
- [40:06]
B
Purely contrarian. He wants to take it somewhere else.
- [40:09]
A
The jokes themselves are. Yeah, I mean, you're right. In the sense that he won't just, like, do a joke where he's like, just like, say, can you believe this asshole? He kind of celebrates Trump's humor. But even that, when he was doing it, I think at the time, it was. It was like, unique at the time. And yeah, I mean, both. Shane stuff, a lot of it is a lot more woke than you would think. A lot of it actually comes from that playing, that tension. You know what I mean?
- [40:38]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [40:39]
A
He's like Louie in that way where, like the old Louis stuff where you like, it comes off as, like, conservative. But then the misdirect is that it's actually kind of woke. Right. But Shane.
- [40:48]
B
Shane's actual concern. Different topic with his niece who has down syndrome. Yeah. Okay. So this puts him in such a different category than the people who are signaling their purity. Right?
- [40:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shane is just a great comic. And he's not. He had to become like a. Whatever his politics are, which I have no idea. But, like, he's just a good comic who's trying to get good laughs. I mean, someone like Schultz is like, you know, whatever. Those people, the ones who actually became political pundits and endorsed him, they're all just pieces of shit. I mean, I'll say this, and this is where I come from personally. Like, you can't get mad. I can't get mad at everyone who voted for Trump. Cause there's too many people who voted for Trump.
- [41:34]
B
Yeah. You're walking around mad at your society.
- [41:37]
A
Yeah, yeah. You can't. Right. So I have to forgive them. Yeah.
- [41:40]
B
Or Kentucky, like front plus 20.
- [41:42]
A
Yeah, exactly. And also, like, you know, if you read about the Holocaust, most of the people who worked at. This is a big exaggeration. But most of the people who worked at Auschwitz, they didn't Go to jail afterwards. The people at the high up. You can't arrest the whole society. So I can't get mad at everyone who voted for Trump. I mean, I can deep down, but I can't express it. But there is a line. The line is, if you used your influence to help get him elected, that I really find hard to forgive. And that is Andrew Schultz, cio Vaughn, Joe Rogan. I find it really hard to forgive. Forgive them for doing. Not to say that he wouldn't have won anyway, but it doesn't matter. You still used your influence to try to get him elected. And that is. Yeah, that's where I put all my hate.
- [42:24]
B
So then the question becomes, what does a comedian do who says this about Joe Rogan? When invited on Joe Rogan. And we'll be back. It's tremendous teaser.
- [42:51]
A
And I know a lot of you look like dedicated listeners up front, but I hate Joe Rogan. I think he's a danger to society. I do. I really do. He's always spreading misinformation. I hate him. The only way I would even remotely consider being on his podcast is if
- [43:04]
B
he asked me back with Renan Hirshberg. And you know, he had. Hey, you had a bit in your last special criticizing Rogan, but then also saying, this is why we laughed. If he invites me on my show, his show, I'm in.
- [43:17]
A
Well, so. So that brave. I had a joke. Yeah. Like, I hate Joe Rogan. The only way I'd consider going on his podcast is if he asked me. Yeah.
- [43:25]
B
And then not just asked me. If he responded to my many texts
- [43:28]
A
and emails saying, and then I did go on the. This is. I will say this is before he endorsed Trump.
- [43:33]
B
Okay.
- [43:33]
A
So I do want to make sure
- [43:34]
B
he feels bad about it now he's criticized more a little.
- [43:36]
A
He doesn't feel bad about it. Yeah. And he's just like. It just. Everything seems so crazy. Yeah.
- [43:41]
B
He is basically the Tucker Carlson view.
- [43:43]
A
Yeah.
- [43:43]
B
He's just like almost everything.
- [43:45]
A
I wish instead of like a conspiracy theorist, he had someone on who like explained cause and effect to him. So I understood, because he seems to really not understand his part. He played in it at all. It's very weird. He kind of. The way he shit talks Trump without accountability. It reminds me of the way white women will be like, fuck white people. And then you're supposed to forget they're white. Like, Joe Rogan's like, fuck Trump.
- [44:10]
B
I forgot of it all.
- [44:11]
A
It's like, but you're you. What you have over. So anyway, I Went on his podcast. And it's not just.
- [44:18]
B
Sorry, it's not just the Heisenberg effect.
- [44:20]
A
Like, there's nothing we could do.
- [44:21]
B
The experiment. Experimenter affects the experiment. Like, you're instrumental.
- [44:26]
A
Insane. Yeah, insane.
- [44:27]
B
But okay, you go. You get invited, like you said you wanted to.
- [44:31]
A
Well, I did say I would do it. I actually. It's funny. I did feel weird about doing it because at the time, he hadn't endorsed Trump. But obviously he spreads quite a lot of misinformation. He also was friends with Alex Jones, which I just always thought was unforgivable. But.
- [44:47]
B
And then since then, he's had on Daryl and all the other holocaust deniers.
- [44:53]
A
But I also am a comedian and wanted to get exposure and. But I also wanted to let you. Like, I also knew that I couldn't, like, if he brought up conspiracy theories, I would have to debate with him.
- [45:05]
B
Right. And you're great on this. You're my favorite comedian on every comedian says, here's the conspiracy theory. I like. Yeah, you're the only one who's like, down to horoscopes. It's all bullshit. Maybe because, you know, every conspiracy theory ends in anti Semitism, or maybe it begins in anti Semitism, but, yeah, you're great on conspiracy. Exactly.
- [45:25]
A
Yeah, I do feel. Yeah, I do feel. I've always felt like I try to not be dogmatic about anything. The one thing I get dogmatic about is how much bullshit conspiracy theories are. And, boy, is the Epstein files really putting a blow to my worldview. But I still stand behind it for the most part. But the Epstein was not a conspiracy theory. People do like. It wasn't like, people were like, to me, a conspiracy theory is something where you keep on saying it's gonna get uncovered and it never does. And anytime you have anything refuting it, that's just how deep it goes. Yeah.
- [46:00]
B
Like, Wuhan lab leak is not a conspiracy. Maybe at one point people didn't understand that it was more plausible than. Yes, a respected people were saying it was.
- [46:10]
A
But that's not. Yeah, that's not like a conspiracy theory is like the Kennedy thing where it's been refuted over and over again. But you're like, it goes so deep.
- [46:17]
B
Right.
- [46:17]
A
That to me, a conspiracy theory is. Once incorporated into this theory is the fact that they're covering up information. Because that's where you get into blind faith. Right. That's where you get to the religious aspect. Once the conspiracy theory says. Because it goes so deep, that's why they've planted all this evidence. To counteract it. Now you're a conspiracy theorist. And now you know, because. Not to go off on a topic, but my. My wife brought up a really great point once and I had to argue, we had to debate about. And it took me a long time to like, decide where I stood on it. She said if the people on January six who stormed the Capitol, if they really thought the election was stolen, then weren't they doing something patriotic from their perspective?
- [47:04]
B
In a way, yes. But I have an answer to that.
- [47:06]
A
Well, yeah, no, I. So I was like. I knew in my heart there has to be a difference. I knew that, like, you can't just. The world can't just be like, whatever you think is what you think and you're right or you're wrong. And yes, they're wrong, but like, they didn't know it. So it doesn't make a difference. There has to be. And I don't know. I'll tell you what I said. But what did you.
- [47:27]
B
There are a couple of things. One is their mechanism of changing. That was at least. That is conspiratorial.
- [47:34]
A
Yeah.
- [47:34]
B
That they would be able to go and stop an. Essentially a symbolic vote. And that would do anything. So that's a huge. It's not just a mistake. It's a huge conspiracy to think that that would have any effect.
- [47:48]
A
So in other words, you're kind of saying, like. Cause the question. We're saying, we know this is immoral what they did.
- [47:54]
B
Yes.
- [47:54]
A
But how is it immoral if they believe what they were doing is right? Right. And this is a important question in moral philosophy. I guess. But what you're saying is a great point. It's like, in a way, you're saying even if they were right, it was wrong for them to do it that way. Cause that was a violent thing. That was also.
- [48:12]
B
Their whole thing is we wanna protect the system of democracy and this is the People's House. And they were. Were executing some totally illogical and undemocratic means.
- [48:23]
A
Because we can't just say, if you believe you're right, then you. Then you're morally okay.
- [48:29]
B
Right.
- [48:29]
A
I think that's a great point.
- [48:30]
B
The righteousness of the cause can always excuse the tactics. So I'm thinking of the person who self immolates over anguish over Israel. And the person who self immolates, like, literally puts themselves on fire because of UFOs. They have more in common than they have.
- [48:46]
A
Sure.
- [48:46]
B
Separate, of course, because you have to look at the expression of your discontent.
- [48:50]
A
Exactly. That's a great point. I think the other thing too with the January six is the fact that if they thought the election was stolen, that had gone to court.
- [49:00]
B
Yeah.
- [49:01]
A
And they had found no evidence of
- [49:02]
B
it over and over and over again.
- [49:04]
A
At that point they are rejecting the information that is refuting what they think. And that's where you get into blind faith. That's where you get into God put the dinosaurs in the dirt to test our faith. Right. Once you do that, that you're in the conspiracy theory territory where you have chosen to make. You've chosen to subjugate reality based on your own beliefs. And that is immoral.
- [49:28]
B
Right.
- [49:29]
A
That is immoral. And that's what Joe Rogan does every day.
- [49:31]
B
If you have the intelligence, like possibly some of them are very low IQ individuals who, they could have gotten the information but they can't understand it. This is a small percentage probably.
- [49:43]
A
But ultimately there's a stubbornness to like for a lot of them it's. It's more than just being dumb. I don't think it's. I think it's a real. And it's what Trump does. It's a real. I will whatever I want.
- [49:54]
B
Yeah.
- [49:55]
A
I make reality be that. Cuz obviously if you wanted Trump to win and he loses, you're not gonna just be like, well I think he should have won. So I'm gonna storm the Capitol. You're gonna say it was stolen. It's such a convenient thing. Cause then you can. Cuz you're basically saying. You're basically throwing the board. Board across the table and having a temper tantrum. Yes. But you can't just do that. You have to have an ideology to hide it behind. So you force reality.
- [50:20]
B
So that is where I don't want to accept the results is unacceptable. And you don't even say it to yourself.
- [50:24]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [50:25]
B
You construct this whole.
- [50:26]
A
Yeah. So there's a bullying you're doing. You're not letting reality refute all the. Yeah. And so that is the immoral part.
- [50:32]
B
Every belief you have has to be unfalsifiable.
- [50:35]
A
And yeah.
- [50:36]
B
I don't know these people ever stopped to have. No one ever said the word to them. I'm sure. But if they ever stop to think, well if I was wrong, what would be the evidence? And if I am right. But if you don't do that or if you don't engage in that, you don't get excused for I was operating out of conviction and passion.
- [50:51]
A
Right, Right.
- [50:52]
B
Goes so far. If I reject and it's.
- [50:54]
A
Yeah. The Bertrand Russell quote. I would Never die for my beliefs, because what if my beliefs are wrong? You know what I mean? There is a certain point where you're like, you have to stand back a little and not have. Have complete confidence in your beliefs to the point where you're going to do something rash. So I don't know what. Oh, yeah. So conspiracy theory. So, yeah, So I was like. I was like, I'll go on Rogan. I'll. I'll argue about it. I was like, in my head, I'm like. I felt a little weird being on Rogan, but at the same time, even though Rogan, I. I'm against his values, it was a bit of a town hall. Like, part of me is like, should I not go on it? But then I'm also like, well, everyone's mad that Kamala didn't go on it. So I'm like. So I'm like, well, then how bad it can be. Just go on and say how you feel. So I was like, I'll go on, but I'll argue about conspiracy theories, which I did very politely. And it led to so much hate. It was like, I might as well just not gone on.
- [51:45]
B
But, oh, it didn't help you at all.
- [51:47]
A
You don't think.
- [51:47]
B
I mean, it's definitely. The comments are scorching you and not very good points, I would say.
- [51:52]
A
Left alone. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was. Well, it was. I'm glad I did it because I didn't get, like, many. I got a little boost on my special, and to be fair, it probably helped more than I know because, like, you.
- [52:03]
B
You also kind of seem like he was very appreciative. You were on. He seemed to, like.
- [52:07]
A
He's a very nice guy. I will say this. He is a. I mean, but nice and good are two different things, right? As the. The Sondheim song from into the Woods. You're so nice. You're not good. You're just nice. But. But. So, yeah, he is a nice guy in that sense, but. So I argued with him a little, very politely. And it led to. Well, first of all, so much anti Semitism. That was my first opening into every fourth comment with anti Semitic, which I'm like, all right, that makes sense. He's a conspiracy theorist. And that is part of it. Anti Semitism. But then it was also this idea that I was so polite about it and people were so mad. So it really became the seeds to my next hour. Morbidly Jewish on YouTube now. Now. Which is, I think, for me, like, artistically, my evolution for this Last hour is before that hour. All my other hours, I really do try to make fun of both sides and just be funny. I didn't want to have too much of an ideology. I wanted to be something, and I had for years. Like, conservatives would come up to me and be like, you know, I'm a conservative. But I found that really funny. And it's because I was just kind of going for the laugh, which I do think is great. I think there's a lot of value in those jokes that bring up the ideological tension, but then relieve it with a length that everyone can enjoy. But I've been doing that for years. And to be fair, the world's changing. And so for this hour, I was like, I'm gonna actually say how I feel. I'm actually gonna say exactly how I feel in an obnoxious way and be okay with being alienating. And it was gonna start with this idea that, well, I was polite about conspiracy theories being bullshit. And people were so angry that I'm liberated now. Cause it doesn't matter if you're polite. You might as well just say how you feel. Cause people are gonna hate you anyway. This is how I really feel. People who believe in conspiracy theories are fucking. And then I say the R word. Right? And that was the idea of my special. It's just for me personally, I just felt like I wanted to do an hour that was gonna alienate people and be ideological, but still be funny. So that was a genesis.
- [54:16]
B
Yeah. And so. So, for example, in your last hour, you made a great joke about gun control and sharks.
- [54:22]
A
Right? That's exactly right. Both sides, right?
- [54:24]
B
This is the. And the greatness of the joke is little horse in the hospital. I guess maybe animal analogies. But yeah, think about. Apply this logic to that situation and the comedy ensues. And I would hope no one would criticize you for saying, yeah, but, you know, the NRA people have the worst side of it. That wasn't what you were trying to do, Right?
- [54:43]
A
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. No. And it's. I have a zombie apocalypse joke that, like, conservatives, like, loved. Even though I am subtly making fun of them. They just don't realize it. But no, to me.
- [54:54]
B
Cause it's like, if there is a zombie apocalypse, those people are better prepared,
- [54:57]
A
but there's not a zombie. It's like, I found the perfect joke for conservatives where they're too stupid to realize I'm making fun of them. But, yeah, I mean, it's always. And I've always thought the best jokes, and I still believe this to some degree, the best jokes are the ones that go beyond ideology. I mean, George, perfect example, one of George Carlin's best jokes. Have you. Have you. Why is it that the people who are like against abortion are the ones you would never want to fuck in the first place?
- [55:25]
B
Right.
- [55:26]
A
That is a non ideological joke. Like it is. Like you could. It's not making a point about abortion. Right. It's just calling them ugly, you know. But like, to me, those jokes are amazing. But there's also the shared value jokes, which I love, and it's two different types of jokes. It's like there's a joke that anyone can like and then there's jokes where like you kind of have to have the same values to find it funny. There's a lot of comedians who are like that, who I love. I love Stuart Lee, most of his comedy, shared values. I love Chris Fleming. Most of his comedy is shared values. But I think that both types of comedy are good, you know?
- [56:02]
B
Yeah. And I also want to compliment you. Cause for two years, maybe three, the standard position on October 7th and what do you do about the situation in Israel is nothing. And then it began to maybe evolve a little bit. Where Jaron Choreshi. Sureshi. Sureshi. Is that Giovanni Suresh?
- [56:22]
A
Oh, John Marcos Rescue John Marco Saveshi.
- [56:26]
B
I think I just named some guy
- [56:27]
A
who makes kids Geppetto. Okay.
- [56:32]
B
So I guess you could come out as really anti Zionist. And that plays in front of some crowds. And I know Sarah Sherman did a little wordplay saying, I'm Jewish, I'm cheap. Of course, I believe in free Palestine. So there was no real joke where you or I had.
- [56:49]
A
That joke's been done.
- [56:50]
B
Yeah, I hadn't heard. I hadn't heard what you do, which is to, of course you invent an angle to it, which is how. How October 7th or the situation in Israel or just Israel affects your jerking off to porn stars. Right. So it has to be put in that context. But also, I think you were talking about it in a way that I hadn't seen any other comic talk about it.
- [57:13]
A
Oh, thanks. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I. I have very conflicted feelings about all of it, which I think is the right way to have the right way to be.
- [57:22]
B
You even say that you want a porn star with a nuanced take on it.
- [57:27]
A
Exactly. And though to be fair, my conflicted feelings are simply just that. Like when you're talking about Israel, your criticism should be for the government, not for the citizens. That's prejudice. Yeah. So it's really not that conflicting. It's actually a pretty clear moral line, but.
- [57:44]
B
But you've just articulated an anti anti Zionism stance, which would get you in trouble. Yeah, well, I don't think the country of Israel as a Jewish state should see to exist.
- [57:52]
A
Yeah, exactly. Well, you ever see Searchers with John Wayne?
- [57:56]
B
Yeah.
- [57:57]
A
Great, great.
- [57:57]
B
One of my favorites. Yeah.
- [57:59]
A
So that one of the great things in that is you realize that the, the bad guy, he hates Scar. Yeah. The original Scar villain is exactly like him. Right. Like they both had family members who died and they're both like avenging it and, and they hate each other and they're exactly like them. And I think about that a lot with.
- [58:16]
B
And his name is Ethan, which is kind of a Jewish name.
- [58:18]
A
That's true. I think about that a lot because I think, I think the right wing Zionists, like the people in the government right now and anti Zionists are the ones who most want you to conflate Judaism with Israel. Right. They most want you to think that it's the exact same thing.
- [58:38]
B
It's sort of like how the anti racists and the Klan have this overlap with. You got to think about race with everything.
- [58:46]
A
But I see because to me it's like conflating the two is where you get. And then I see a lot of people who try to hide their anti Semitism behind anti Zionism.
- [58:57]
B
You think they know that, but they
- [58:58]
A
fuck it up because they'll put Jew instead of Israel. I saw a comedian do Christopher Titus, literally. Nice, funny guy. Tweeted the other day after Trump's talk was Netanyahu is now the Jew knighted states of jewmerica. And it's like when you see like a, like a pro life person with some misspelling on the sign, you want to help them. I'm like, no, no, no. You want to put. You're letting everyone know you're anti Semitic. You got to hide it. Put the Zionist. You know, you hide it by saying Zionist. And then we all know what you mean as Jew.
- [59:25]
B
That's right.
- [59:26]
A
Don't put Jew because then we know, we know what's really going on. But yeah, I mean, obviously, like, obviously like the. What's happened with the whole thing is that anti Zionists have allowed most people to think. Think right wing Zionism and the manifest destiny of right wing Zionism is all Zionism.
- [59:48]
B
Yes.
- [59:49]
A
So they've made everyone think that.
- [59:50]
B
So it's all with Netanyahu in charge.
- [59:54]
A
Yeah. And Netanyahu wants you to think the same thing.
- [59:56]
B
Yeah.
- [59:57]
A
So he wants you to think it's all the same.
- [59:59]
B
So, yes, and he goes even further and hurts everyone by saying, I don't just speak for my country, I speak to be fair. So does Xi Jinping about Chinese. He doesn't get of sense a as much shit.
- [60:10]
A
But yes, right, yes. And, but obviously, like, you know, with the war in Russia, you didn't have people attacking Russians in America. You know, there is a difference, right? Like anti Semitism is, is a big thing. And people, it's, it's, it's people. Because the Israeli government is so right wing and reactionary, it's allowed anti Semitism to become even more normalized, you know, but it's also. So a lot of anti Semites are like, here's my chance. This is the most I can have it be normalized. I can get my anti Semitism out. And we have such a bunch of fucking idiots and thugs in the Israeli government that this can now be normalized in a way that you wouldn't see before. So it's like. And now it's really. So the question of, is Netanyahu causing the anti Semitism? No, it's already there. But Netanyahu is allowing them to get it out in a way that's very mainstream.
- [61:06]
B
Yeah, he's a very powerful magnet.
- [61:08]
A
Yeah. Cuz now you have this thing where like Netanyahu clearly convinced Trump to go in with him on the Iran war. But there's a difference between convincing Trump to go in on the Iran war and having the power to make Trump. Right. That's the Jews control the world. Right. But that difference is gonna be lost on people. Right. So, so Netanyahu did convince Trump, but Trump doesn't do anything unless it's for his own self interest. Right. But now people are like, well, the Jews are getting us into this war. So now because of these actions, you're having this, the oldest anti Semitic theory in the world that the Jews got us into this unnecessary war. And it's kind of true, but in this nuanced way where it's like he convinced him, he didn't make him, you know.
- [61:54]
B
Right.
- [61:55]
A
But it's very nuanced and it doesn't do well with the algorithm.
- [61:58]
B
Them and the people who think that it was this mesmerism. Right. Are the ones who think that simultaneously they're saying, well, Trump is so adel brain that he's able to do it. But also Trump is the strongest.
- [62:10]
A
Right, exactly, exactly.
- [62:12]
B
Strongest person to suss out what no one else can see. So do you think the things you were just telling me, and I enjoyed talking to you about them. Do you think something like that could ever make their way into a set at the Village Underground talking about Netanyahu? Do you think you'd say Netanyahu on stage?
- [62:27]
A
I mean, most people are. I mean, I don't know. It depends. It depends where you're at.
- [62:30]
B
I mean, we were trying to talk about Israel, and then you wound up. You found the way through the porn star. Or did something like that happen with, you know, you watching your favorite porn and then. Or you actually being on the plane with a porn star.
- [62:42]
A
Right. So the porn star bit. Right. So I have all these. These feelings. He's like, nuanced feelings. But the problem, too, and this is why I did the porn star bit, the problem with these nuanced feelings is that they're also not original and they're actually not that controversial.
- [62:59]
B
Yeah, not that funny inherently.
- [63:01]
A
Not that funny inherently. And I was like, but I want to get out this. I want to get out my ideology, but how do I get out in a way that's, like, palatable? So I was like, oh, well, dick jokes. That's the way to do it. So I remember when Mia Khalifa said that, it really upset me. Like, really upset me. And I still think, like, she never got enough shit for it. I think, like, if anything's cancelable, it's what she fucking said. And so I wanted to make. I wanted to make fun of her. That's a big part of inspiration, revenge. But then I guess that got into this whole, like, porn star. I don't know. It just became a way to, like, basically make fun of people who are ideologically reductive on both sides. Kids. But through dick jokes. Yeah. It was just, like, a simple way to do that, you know?
- [63:49]
B
So the last thing I want to get into, especially if people have met you through this interview, they're saying, renan, this is a smart guy. This is a guy who knows a lot of things. And I'm not saying that you don't come off as. As erudite on stage as you did in this conversation. What you come off at, and it's 20 minutes set at a showcase club like this. For 10 minutes, people be like, oh, this is a guy with a gruff exterior. Maybe some funny fat jokes. This is Arty Lang. This is the Jewish ar. Right, Right.
- [64:19]
A
And so I got one to be R. Lang the other day.
- [64:22]
B
Well, you don't want to be Arty Lang.
- [64:26]
A
Yeah. I was like, yeah, I can cut off my nose if I Want to. I'm not going. Yeah. I mean, it's funny when people accuse you of, like, I. I don't really know his stuff at all, but I think they're just saying, we're both fat and disheveled.
- [64:43]
B
The voice and the voice. The cadence is important.
- [64:46]
A
Cadence, similar.
- [64:47]
B
Oh, yeah. And the way he could.
- [64:49]
A
Any way to get them off from realizing I'm stealing from Louis.
- [64:52]
B
But the way. The way you push through air, through. You know, the gruffness of the voice, that's just fact. Do you think if you lost someone, it's just.
- [65:01]
A
I don't know. I mean. Yeah, I guess there is that. But it's funny, like. Like, I don't get this too much. Like, usually people aren't, like, accusing me of stealing from him. I will say sometimes people do accuse a comedian of taking another person's act. They're like, no, they just talk similar.
- [65:17]
B
Right.
- [65:17]
A
You know what I mean? They just have a similar voice. Most people. Most comedians are like, I'm gonna create my vocal rhythm. Derek Stroup, great comedian. He sounds very similar to Nate Brigatzi. I mean, they have very different energy level, but they're from the same area. You know, it's like they. It's not. It's not like they took it from each other. Just people talked about it.
- [65:35]
B
But comedians do say in the first few years of their act, they will admit, you know what? I was doing Dave Attel for the first three years, I was doing.
- [65:42]
A
And I was doing Doug Stano, and then I was doing Louie, and then I was doing Stuart Lee. And then you. The key is, you steal from enough people, it's hard to tell who you're stealing from. Right, right. And just a little bit of yourself, too. Right, right.
- [65:55]
B
But the main question, the Artie Lang thing, and it was very interesting, putting all of your intelligence in the act. I think it's there. It's just not. You don't use. Mostly you don't use words that might confuse the audience. You don't lay concepts on them. At one point, you said something. You used the word subtext, and I was like, oh, that was for me.
- [66:17]
A
I. Yeah, I try. I mean, I start out in Kentucky on the road. So I started out, like, learning how to make rednecks laugh. So I don't have, like, a natural. I don't try to, like. Yeah, I try to dumb it down or not dumb it down. I try to, like, simplify it and not, like, push people away with. I don't know. I mean, that's a whole Part of stand up that I guess I've always just adopted, that's kind of like you can't. You can't act like you're too smart, you know?
- [66:45]
B
Right.
- [66:46]
A
Or you can't, like, you can't be like. Even though I love certain, I love Chris Fleming, I love Stuart Lee. They're two of my favorite comedians. But I can't be them. I like. I just can't. It's just not in me. Like, I have. I want people like me.
- [66:58]
B
Right.
- [66:59]
A
So I don't. I don't want to, like, alienate people in the room.
- [67:01]
B
And also, there's a lot of art that's accessible and doesn't alienate anyone. That's clearly. There's a lot of thought into it and there's a lot of intelligence behind
- [67:11]
A
Lou Louis, Kyle Kanane are both, like, brilliant comedians who hide the. The. The. What do you call it? The. The. The pretentiousness.
- [67:20]
B
Right, right.
- [67:21]
A
You know, like. Or hide the. Like. It's like a rule in comedy, you know, you can't act like you're smarter than the audience. Audience. You know, maybe it's like an American rule.
- [67:30]
B
I don't know. Jimmy Carr does us maybe violates that
- [67:33]
A
rule in a way. Well, all the British people do. Yeah. It's not. Maybe they are.
- [67:37]
B
Than the American audience, but it's.
- [67:38]
A
It's. Yeah. I mean, I wish I. But I also feel very dumb in many ways. So it's like, it works out like I'm smart in certain ways and very dumb in other ways.
- [67:48]
B
What ways are you dumb in?
- [67:49]
A
I have no spatial awareness, like, at all. I'll get lost everywhere. I have no, like, body awareness. I. There are major geography blind spots, which I guess goes to spatial awareness. But, yeah, I say I speak without thinking, so I say stupid shit all the time. But I've also, like, read all of In Search of Lost Time, like, the entire series. I've read Ulysses three times. And I'm not saying that to be like. But I'm also, like, very dumb another way. So I do. But, like, I've read Ulysses three times, and I also remember one week pouring coffee on my balls accidentally twice. It's like. It's like I do. I really am smart in some ways and very dumb in other ways.
- [68:34]
B
All right, well, enjoy your coffee. And we have some Ulysses in the back. Ronan Hirschberg's new special is called Morbidly Jewish. It's semi autobiographical, I guess you could say. And he has an excellent new podcast where he argues with people that their favorite movie sucks. And in fact, that's the name of the podcast. Vernon, thanks so much.
- [68:53]
A
Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.
- [69:06]
B
And that's it for today's show. Corey War produces the Gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. Ben Astaire is our booking producer, and Jeff Craig runs our social media. Michelle Pesca oversees it all. Benevolently improve. And thanks for listening.