Garrett Graff: “Russia Sought Division More Than Victory” - The Gist

Summary

The Gist
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Garrett Graff, host of Long Shadow podcast
Episode: Garrett Graff: “Russia Sought Division More Than Victory”
Date: September 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the true intent and impact of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election with journalist and historian Garrett Graff. The conversation dissects the ways foreign and domestic actors weaponize misinformation, disinformation, and social media to erode public trust and exacerbate division—arguing that the Russian aim was less about installing a favored candidate and more about undermining American democracy itself. The discussion expands to post-election disinformation campaigns, the complexities of content moderation, and the roots of U.S. hyper-partisanship.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. 2016 Election Interference: Sowing Division, Not Picking Sides

Russia’s Strategy
- Graff emphasizes that Russia's priority was destabilizing American democracy rather than ensuring a Trump victory. Undermining Hillary Clinton and boosting Trump were means to weaken faith in the U.S. system.
  - Quote, Graff (11:16):
    
    "They saw undermining Hillary Clinton and boosting Donald Trump as the surest way to undermine trust in the American electoral system and American democracy... What Putin actually cares about is showing that America is a failing model of democracy and strength."
Stop the Steal Origins and the Iranians
- Graff notes that Roger Stone prepared the "Stop the Steal" narrative in 2016, expecting Trump’s loss. When Trump won, it was shelved until 2020.
- Pesca adds that Iran also attempted interference, reportedly in Clinton's favor, but lacked Russia’s skill.
Impact of Coordinated Leaks and Media Distractions
- Pesca brings up the idea that the infamous release of Clinton’s emails was a distraction from the Access Hollywood tape; Graff clarifies this narrative:
  - Quote, Graff (14:55):
    
    "There's a third thing that happened that same day...the US Government comes out and says...Russia is trying to influence the election. And that is what is forgotten very quickly and overlooked by ...the Access Hollywood tapes."
- Americans missed the intelligence warning because of media attention on other stories.

2. Misinformation, Disinformation, and "Malinformation"

Definitions and Real-World Examples
- Pesca distinguishes:
  - Disinformation: Deliberate deceit by state actors, broadcasters, etc.
  - Misinformation: False information possibly spread in error or with earnest intent.
- Graff adds 'malinformation'—true information deployed for harm (e.g., Podesta emails, WikiLeaks).
  - Quote, Graff (21:41):
    
    "There's a third category...mal information, which is true information sort of being used in a nefarious manner."
The Content Moderation Dilemma
- Pesca questions if fighting misinformation inevitably risks suppressing truth, noting changes to what’s considered “right” or “wrong” as knowledge evolves.
  - Quote, Pesca (22:08):
    
    "If we as citizens...want the government to intervene ... I think focusing on misinformation, there's a lot of downsides ... the nature of information and our knowledge about information changes."
- Graff agrees, noting U.S. government generally avoids policing misinformation, but social media platforms bear responsibility for their ecosystems.
  - Quote, Graff (23:09):
    
    "The challenge is who bears what responsibility... we have decided...it is not the government's role to fight misinformation. ...social media platforms have a role...as a matter of trust and safety."
2020 and the Flood of Falsehoods
- Platforms were unprepared for the deluge in 2020—COVID conspiracies, Stop the Steal, etc.—even after developing better systems post-2016. Political backlash (notably from figures like Jim Jordan) has since chilled the field, according to Graff.
  - Quote, Graff (26:07):
    
    "Those lines are all constantly moving...in 2016 we realized too late that the platforms had been under policed ... but in the years since...bad faith actors...have really tried to punish and undermine people...and have effectively silenced that field now."

3. Case Study: January 6th, the ‘MAGA Granny’

Pam Hemphill’s Story (MAGAGRANNY)
- A live streamer from Idaho, Hemphill was radicalized through anti-mask protests led by Ammon Bundy.
- Her family gifted her a plane ticket to D.C. as a Christmas present for Jan. 6, 2021.
- Regretted her actions inside the Capitol, left with police help, served ~60 days in jail, and became an outspoken voice of regret—she even refused a Trump pardon.
  - Quote, Graff (17:31):
    
    "Her family, as a Christmas present, gives her a plane ticket to Washington for January 6th...once she gets inside the Capitol, realizes that this is not a great thing...and gets herself out with the help of Capitol police...she did exactly the crime that she was convicted of and has...become...a voice for January 6th regret."

4. The Roots of Hyper-Partisanship: Tools or Temperament?

Chicken or Egg?
- Pesca asks whether new tools (social media, algorithmic amplification) are the root cause of polarization, or if they merely reflect pre-existing divisions.
- Graff contends that while such tools exacerbate divisions and make conflict more visible, the underlying cleavages in American society are longstanding.
  - Quote, Graff (29:10):
    
    "These tools are corrupting America, but they are also showing us who we really are...The underlying foundation for our partisanship and polarization, that is who we are as America. And these tools are changing our politics by order of magnitudes, but not necessarily directionally."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Russia's Motivation in 2016:
"Anything that makes America weaker makes Russia stronger." — Garrett Graff (11:16)
On Intent vs. Accident in 2016 Events:
"I don't know that we will really know sort of what was cause, what was effect and what was the random overlap of world events." — Garrett Graff (16:10)
On Misinformation and Government Role:
"...it is not the government's role to fight misinformation. ...social media platforms have a role..." — Garrett Graff (23:09)
On The Roots of Division:
"These tools are corrupting America, but they are also showing us who we really are." — Garrett Graff (29:10)
On January 6th Regret:
"...she did exactly the crime that she was convicted of and has...become...a voice for January 6th regret." — Garrett Graff (17:31)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Opening Analysis of "Far Left" Crackdown: 00:59–04:20
Introduction to Russia, Disinformation, and Long Shadow Podcast: 10:35–11:16
Russian Objective in 2016: 11:16–13:13
Hacked Emails & Access Hollywood — What Really Got Lost: 13:58–16:10
Deep Dive: Definitions of Misinformation/Disinformation/Malinformation: 20:52–23:09
Content Moderation & Its Pitfalls: 23:09–26:07
Case Study: Pam Hemphill ("MAGA Granny"): 17:31–20:52
Is Polarization a Problem of Technology or Culture?: 28:07–30:21

Summary Tone

The conversation is candid, analytical, and at times skeptical, retaining Pesca's “responsibly provocative” style. Graff brings thoughtful, nuanced explanations, keeping discussion grounded in both historic context and present-day reality. Both examine uncomfortable truths—often questioning simple narratives and easy villains—while warning against both overreaction and apathy in the face of manipulation and division.

For listeners seeking a deeper understanding of Russian interference, information warfare, and America’s internal fractures, this episode offers both sharp analysis and critical context—without easy answers.