The Gist — Episode Summary
Podcast: The Gist
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Garrett M. Graff
Episode Title: "Garrett M. Graff on “Long Shadow” and the Internet’s Descent Into Outrage"
Date: September 15, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode discusses the arc of the internet as a social force — from an optimistic engine of connection and democratization to a source of outrage, polarization, and manipulation. Mike Pesca interviews Long Shadow podcast host and Pulitzer nominee Garrett M. Graff, whose latest season tackles the history of the internet and social media, tracing how the profit motives and decisions of tech companies altered the fabric of public discourse. They also dig into Russian disinformation campaigns around the 2016 election and the purposeful stoking of division. Pesca and Graff analyze how bad actors exploit these digital tools, and discuss the difficulties in assessing (and correcting) the broader social and political impact.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Origins and Evolution of "Long Shadow"
- [11:33–14:35]
- Long Shadow began as a 9/11 anniversary project, but expanded into a season-per-topic exploration of pivotal American moments (9/11, the far right, gun violence, now the internet).
- Graff's aim is to counter the common media narrative that everything is "unprecedented" by demonstrating clear historical precedent:
"What history actually teaches you is everything is precedented. In fact, ... there are distinct moments and choices and decisions that are made by specific people at specific times that help drive where the country goes and how we end up the country that we are." — Garrett Graff [12:53]
2. Internet as a Neutral Tool — For Good or Evil?
- [14:35–16:00]
- Both agree that the internet's initial promise was contingent on the motivations of its users (ex. Arab Spring vs. conspiracy groups).
- Graff notes:
"It is a tool, not an ideology, and ... it can be used for good and for evil. ... The story of how the Internet became such a tool of partisanship and polarization has been the extent to which bad faith actors have weaponized it and seized opportunities to weaponize it..." — Garrett Graff [15:21]
- The original ethos was minimal regulation, driven by profit-seeking — a pivotal foundation for later problems.
3. Pivot Points — Could the Internet Have Evolved Differently?
- [16:00–19:21]
- Pesca raises whether the internet's trajectory was inevitable:
"...was there really any ... pivot point where America didn't pivot in some way? ... Was there really a case to be made that the Internet wasn't always going to cause gigantic disruptions?" — Mike Pesca [16:11]
- Graff believes decisive moments existed, notably when companies like Facebook shifted to an advertising-based model that valued engagement at all costs, and governments failed to regulate.
- He further warns:
"...I'm concerned ... it feels like we're about to repeat all of those same mistakes with AI right now..." — Garrett Graff [18:10]
- Pesca raises whether the internet's trajectory was inevitable:
4. Social Media's Descent into Outrage and Radicalization
- [19:21–22:45]
- Facebook's drive for engagement led to algorithms amplifying anger and outrage.
- Pesca notes YouTube's radicalizing effect, sometimes surpassing Facebook's influence.
- Graff explains:
"...the things that make us angry are the things that keep us on their websites.... YouTube's algorithms ... learn ... Americans who are interested in one conspiracy are interested in watching things about other conspiracies." — Garrett Graff [21:05]
- Facebook even weighted the "dislike" button five times as much as the "like" button, algorithmically valuing anger:
"The more that being angry at something is five times as valuable as liking something and therefore all of the engagement will be for being upset." — Mike Pesca [22:45]
5. Russian Disinformation — 2016 Election and Beyond
- [22:58–29:08]
- Graff details early failed Russian attempts at creating hoaxes (police shootings, chemical plant explosions) via social media — most didn’t catch on, but the goal was always amplification of pre-existing American divisions:
"...when someone like an Internet troll comes along, they are generally not successful in creating new fissures. What they are good at ... is exacerbating existing divides in politics and sort of inflaming places where people are already inclined to be inflamed." — Garrett Graff [25:18]
- He outlines how the Russian Internet Research Agency orchestrated social media campaigns, real-life protests, and disinformation not just to back particular candidates, but to deepen chaos and distrust:
"...their goal was not to help any one candidate, although Donald Trump was the center point ... but it was to really sort of stoke and encourage any division that they could come up with." — Garrett Graff [28:15]
- Graff details early failed Russian attempts at creating hoaxes (police shootings, chemical plant explosions) via social media — most didn’t catch on, but the goal was always amplification of pre-existing American divisions:
Memorable Quotes
-
On the historical roots of today's issues:
"Everything is precedented... there are usually, when you go back and look, very distinct moments and choices and decisions that are made by specific people at specific times that help drive where the country goes and how we end up the country that we are." — Garrett Graff [12:54]
-
On technological neutrality:
"It is a tool, not an ideology..." — Garrett Graff [15:21]
-
On algorithmic engagement:
"...being angry at something is five times as valuable as liking something..." — Mike Pesca [22:45]
-
On the sustainability of journalistic standards amidst social media:
"The median viewer of media is not watching anything that was made by someone with training, someone who ever took an ethics course..." — Mike Pesca [07:19]
-
On dangerous repetition with new tech (AI):
"...it feels like we're about to repeat all of those same mistakes with AI right now, that we're sort of racing down another set of tracks towards another looming disaster." — Garrett Graff [18:10]
Notable Moments & Timestamps
-
Intro to Episode's Theme:
- [03:03] Pesca frames the debate over social media's impact and old media's inability to grasp the current landscape.
-
Why "Long Shadow" Exists:
- [11:33–14:35] Graff explains the podcast’s origins, emphasizing the search for root causes behind recurring national crises.
-
Rise and Fall of the Internet’s Promise:
- [14:35–19:21] Examination of how the internet’s promise soured, shifting towards profit-above-all and divisiveness.
-
Algorithmic Incentives:
- [21:05–22:45] Graff and Pesca describe how YouTube’s and Facebook’s algorithms drive consumption of conspiracies and outrage.
-
Russian Disinformation Campaigns:
- [23:31–29:08] Specifics of 2016 operations — the focus on inflaming rather than inventing divisions; the limited success and ambiguous long-term impact.
Tone & Style
The tone is conversational, responsible, and analytical with flashes of humor and concern. Both host and guest avoid partisan dogma, critically examining actors across the spectrum.
Conclusion
In this episode, Mike Pesca and Garrett M. Graff dissect the real roots of our digital malaise — not just in technological capability, but in the choices, incentives, and missed moments of regulation that allowed outrage and disinformation to flourish. They caution that, with AI, society is at risk of repeating similar mistakes, and argue for historic sensibility, rigorous accountability, and a renewed focus on civic-minded communication.
For those interested in deeper dives on these topics, listen to Long Shadow, particularly its most recent season on the internet’s societal transformation.