Henry Winkler & Clint Watts: "Three Little Fonzies and a Trail of Dead Russians"

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Gist

Episode: Henry Winkler & Clint Watts: "Three Little Fonzies and a Trail of Dead Russians"
Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Featured Guests: Henry Winkler, Clint Watts

Overview

In this Thanksgiving episode, Mike Pesca revisits two standout interviews from the show's archives: the first with Henry Winkler, beloved as "The Fonz," discussing dyslexia, typecasting, and resilience; the second with security expert Clint Watts, offering insight into Russian election interference, congressional testimony, and the perils of information warfare. The tone is lively, candid, and at times self-deprecating, with the warmth of old friends trading stories and the rigor of a probing news magazine.

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Part 1: Henry Winkler — From Fonzie to Dyslexia Advocacy

(Original interview from March 2017)

Key Themes

• Henry Winkler’s childhood struggles with undiagnosed dyslexia
• The creation and intent of the Hank Zipzer book series
• How humor, performance, and empathy became coping mechanisms
• The nuances of typecasting in Hollywood and the journey to self-acceptance

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Discovering Dyslexia and Its Impact

• Winkler explains he didn't know the word "dyslexic" until his 30s, when his stepson was diagnosed:
  • "I knew it when I was 31...everything that they said about him was true about me." (07:07, Winkler)
• Describes feelings of anger and humiliation over punishments for academic struggles no one understood at the time:
  • "I was pissed off...I was punished. I was grounded. All for no reason." (07:22, Winkler)
• Coping mechanisms included acting out as a class clown and excelling in dance to redirect attention from his struggles. (07:54)

On Creativity and Performance as Coping

• Winkler found performance (both comedy and dance) a lifeline:
  • "I would make people laugh...I could win the dance contests at the school dances." (07:54)
• He connects his school dance experiences directly with his later work on Happy Days, even recalling learning the Kazatsky Russian dance as a child and reprising it on the show. (08:13-08:34)

Challenges in Acting and Memorization

• Despite earning an MFA from Yale, memorizing scripts was daunting because, without a sense of self, focus was elusive:
  • "It has taken me basically up until now to become the actor I dreamt of being when I first started." (08:54, Winkler)

Innovating for Dyslexic Readers

• Winkler co-developed a new typeface for the latest Hank Zipzer books, designed to ease the burden for dyslexic readers:
  • "The font...was devised by a dad in Holland for his children who are dyslexic. The opening of the 'c' is farther apart...The words are weighted...It made it easier for the reluctant reader." (09:57, Winkler)
• Pesca notes it looks whimsical but is "really easy to read" for all kids. (10:35)

Living with Dyslexia: Practical Challenges

• Winkler shares the profound impact on daily functions, like handling money:
  • "If I paid for a piece of pizza with paper money, I would not know how much change I get back...and used a calculator." (11:19, Winkler)
• He jokes about the "mundane" look of U.S. currency, contrasting it with Europe's more beautiful designs. (11:51)

Typecasting, Fame, and Monoculture

On Being Iconic Yet Pigeonholed

• Winkler empathizes with Jaleel White ("Urkel") about being forever linked to a character:
  • "I understand how difficult it is to play a character...and then you are only known for one character." (12:30, Winkler)

Type vs. Character

• The Fonz persona was everything Winkler aspired to, though it wasn't who he was in real life:
  • "The Fonz was everybody I wanted to be. And I never was." (13:13, Winkler)

The Audience Experience

• Lively audience reactions on shows like Happy Days contributed to performance timing and energy, sometimes overshadowing the scene:
  • "Timing is everything." (17:15, Winkler)

Embracing Versatility in a Fractured Media Landscape

• Despite "monoculture" limitations, Winkler celebrates the modern TV landscape for giving him opportunities—whether on Barry, Arrested Development, Children’s Hospital, or global travel shows with other TV legends:
  • "I've been able to do all of this wonderful stuff...If you build it, we will find it. What a lovely conversation." (18:36, Winkler; 20:41)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [07:22] Henry Winkler: "I was pissed off…All for no reason."
• [09:53] Henry Winkler (on the new font): "Brand new. And it’s never been used in America before."
• [13:44] Henry Winkler: "I was always the… I was the core or the stem."
• [14:12] Henry Winkler: "I think that they like the character. Ergo, I became good looking."
• [17:15] Henry Winkler: "Timing is everything."
• [20:41] Henry Winkler: "If you build it, we will find it. What a lovely conversation."

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Part 2: Clint Watts — The Russian Information War and Congressional Testimony

(Original interview from May 2017)

Key Themes

• Dissecting Russia’s strategy in influencing foreign elections, particularly 2016 US
• Practical insights into giving impactful testimony before Congress
• The evolution of “fake news” and what it means for American discourse

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Russian Influence Operations

• Watts outlines Putin's methods: sowing disruption by betting on the least stable candidate, not out of love but to further Russia’s goals:
  • "Putin is almost saying, you're a dupe for my causes." (24:24, Watts)

Useful Idiots and Campaign Collusion

• When asked about collusion, Watts provides clarity:
  • "Is he [Trump] a useful idiot? Means wittingly or unwittingly, he's taking the praise of Putin and running with it...using Russian active measures on his behalf." (24:24-25:25, Watts)
• On members of Trump's team with clear knowledge of Russian tactics:
  • "Manafort’s a campaign manager that worked in Ukraine...This Russian influence effort isn’t just about the US...It continues today." (26:16, Watts)

Understanding Russian Tactics and US Vulnerabilities

• Watts stresses that Russian efforts weren’t unique to the US, but part of a global campaign targeting Western democracies:
  • "This started long before the US campaign...Bannon seems to be fully aware of it…Flynn…taking money from a Russian state sponsored news outlet. It doesn't add up, it doesn't make sense." (26:21-27:46, Watts)

On Fake News and Perceptions of Truth

• Watts laments the way "fake news" has been weaponized as a label:
  • "Fake news is used by both sides now for anything I don't want to hear or don't like." (29:40, Watts)
• The Russian information model: Destroy the notion of universal facts:
  • "There is no such thing as fact. There is no truth. It's all perceptions...If you believe that, you can be co-opted or coerced into almost anything." (31:14, Watts)

Congressional Testimony: Strategy and Rhetoric

• Pesca admires Watts for his powerful testimony, especially for coining “the trail of dead Russians”:
  • "That one I did not. Of all of them...’Trail of dead Russians’ just came off the top of my head." (32:21, Watts)
• On preparation:
  • "When I prep…I immediately start truncating it down. And if I can't memorize it in five or six points, then I know I'm not on track." (34:20, Watts)
• Watts’ goal in testimony was directness, providing actionable intelligence, and telling a compelling narrative:
  • "I didn't want it to be the typical college thesis kind of testimony. So I wanted it to tell a story." (34:23, Watts)
• On bridging political divides in testimony:
  • "I wanted to stress that it was not a partisan issue…Russian active measures didn’t stop on Election Day." (37:46, Watts)
• On the risk of political retaliation:
  • "It was quite possible that I would walk out the door that day and I would be attacked by the White House or by the inner circle..." (38:21, Watts)

Reflections on the System

• Watts is encouraged by bipartisan engagement during his Senate appearance:
  • "Democrat and Republican, it didn't matter who it was in the room, was focused on the issue at hand. I did not expect that going in...democracy worked the way it was designed that day." (40:36, Watts)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [24:24] Clint Watts: "Putin is almost saying, you're a dupe for my causes..."
• [29:40] Clint Watts: "Fake news is used by both sides now for anything I don't want to hear or don't like."
• [32:21] Clint Watts: "Trail of dead Russians…just came off the top of my head."
• [34:23] Clint Watts: "I wanted it to tell a story..."
• [37:46] Clint Watts: "I wanted to stress it's not a partisan issue..."
• [38:21] Clint Watts: "It was quite possible that I would walk out the door...and be attacked by the White House."
• [40:36] Clint Watts: "Democrat and Republican…were focused on the issue at hand. Democracy worked the way it was designed that day."

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Notable Timestamps by Segment

• 06:44–21:08: Henry Winkler interview (childhood, dyslexia, acting, typecasting, TV landscape)
• 23:43–41:10: Clint Watts interview (Russian propaganda, 2016 election, testimony, information warfare)

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Tone & Style

The episode is marked by Pesca’s quick wit, empathetic questioning, and desire to find nuance—eschewing dogma. Winkler radiates humility and humor, while Watts’ candor benefits from the gravity of his subject matter but never becomes somber or alarmist.

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Recommended For

• Listeners interested in personal stories of resilience and overcoming learning differences (Winkler)
• Fans of classic American TV and meta-conversations about fame and monoculture
• Policy, security, and current events followers wanting a clear breakdown of Russia’s information war from an expert who’s briefed Congress

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For more information:

• Henry Winkler’s Hank Zipzer book series, especially for parents and educators
• Further reading on Russian “active measures” and information warfare, much of it referenced by Clint Watts in government and academic circles

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

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[Mike Pesca]

To tell you about a great Gist offering. It is about the Pesca plus feature of our audio subscription plan. And with Pesca plus you get an ad free podcast. You also get a lot of bonus content and there are little perks. We run a fantasy league. In the past we've done trivia nights and book clubs and we'll continue to do a bunch a version of all those things I aspire to at least. So go to subscribe.mike pesca.com and if you want to take advantage in our new Laser Focus in On Affordability era, use the code Laser Focus all one word. S is laser doesn't have a Z. It has an S. Use Laser Focus at checkout and you can get Peska plus for only $75. Used to be 89. I think even 89.99 people are saying. Now it's $75 for a yearly subscription to Pesca Plus. Go to subscribe.mike pesca.com and use the code Laser Focus all one word. Don't get distracted. Don't write a Z in it. We're not talking about Laser Wolf from Fiddler on the Roof. We're talking about having a laser focus on affordability. Peska Plus. It's Thursday, November 27, 2025, also known as Thanksgiving from Peach Fish Productions. It's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca and I wanted to bring you today. I wanted to give thanks to some of the great guests I've had on the show in the past. Oh, Mike, did you just say thanks in order to finagle us hornswoggle us with a rerun? Yes, but I'm telling you, these were reruns of the best episodes we've ever had. And also, and this is important, little bit behind the curtain. Uh, we burnt the cranberry sauce. All right. Different curtain. And you can't burn cranberry. A little bit behind the curtain. We can't access some of our episodes. Not in the regular way but if I play them here, the old episodes from 10 years ago or eight years ago become the new episodes. So it's a revitalization process like laying or lying the fields fallow. Which brings me to James Fallows. No, it's not him. I'm going to give you now, oh, just about the most delightful human I've met who I came into with a lot of expectations and they were exceeded. It is James Fallows. No, it's not James Fallows. It's Henry Winkler. You know him as the Fonz. He's written a lot of books about his own life being a dyslexic young boy on the Upper east side. They were called the Hank Zipser books. He has, of course, since this interview got on to win Emmys for Barry. But we talked about the books that he puts out about a dyslexic boy might have to consider. And I'll tell you that the original title of this episode delighted me. I don't know if it drove traffic. The algorithm says you got to put the guest name in the headline. We didn't even do that. But this original title about dyslexia and Henry Winkler and the words on the page was called Fons on fonts FOMZ F O N T S Arthur Fontsarelli. Enjoy. From March of 2017. Mike Pesca and Henry Winkler. I sometimes struggle to find gifts to give for my mom and dad especially. But now I have a great idea because I've been using Cove Pure. Cove Pure is a way to get without fancy hookups. Get great water, great tasting water and water that is as half of the name implies or flat out promises, pure. It makes your water taste very, very good. Pure, clean, no aftertaste. But sometimes it gets those contaminants slash floaties down to single digits. It's lab certified to remove 99.9% of contaminants from your water. That includes stuff like PFAS and pharmaceuticals, fluoride, lead, arsenic. The purest water you could get and so easy to install. Fits right on the countertop. Looks great doing so. So if you're looking for a gift that's good for your loved ones and one they will actually use, I highly recommend Cove Pure. And because I have partnered with them, they're giving you a special $250 holiday discount with my link covpure.com the gist that's C-O-V E P U R E.com thegist to get $250 off covepure.com the gist hurry before the sale ends.

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[Mike Pesca]

We're not gonna do anything stupid, are we?

[Ad Voice]

Don't you hurt him.

[Mike Pesca]

Nobody's gonna hurt anybody. We're all gonna be like three little Fonzies here. And what's Fonzie like? Come on, Yolanda, what's Fonzie like? Cool. What?

[Clint Watts]

Cool.

[Mike Pesca]

Correctamundo. And that's what we're gonna be. We're gonna be cool. Although Fonzie is not only cool Fonzie or Henry Winkler, who played Fonzie famously is author of the multi series Hank Zipser books. Hank Zipser is a boy with dyslexia. And we have traced him, Henry, through how many books now?

[Henry Winkler]

34.

[Mike Pesca]

34 books. So this one that I have before me, which I think the subs title is Always Watch out for the Flying Potato Salad, which it sounds better in the original Latin, but I.

[Henry Winkler]

You know what? I couldn't put the original Latin on there because I would never be able to read it.

[Mike Pesca]

So these books come from my life. Your life? And when did you know the word dyslexic?

[Henry Winkler]

I knew it when I was 31. My stepson, who came into my life when he was 4, was in the third grade. We had him tested and everything that they said about him was true about me.

[Mike Pesca]

And did you say. Wait a minute.

[Henry Winkler]

I said I was pissed off? Yeah, I wish I said I was angry because I got. I got humiliated. I felt bad about myself. I was punished. I was grounded. All for no reason.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Well, a lot of this is your parents. And they were.

[Henry Winkler]

Well, because it's hereditary.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. But your dad was this multi. Multilinguist. Brilliant mathematician.

[Henry Winkler]

Yeah. It must have skipped him.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Henry Winkler]

Or maybe he was so short it went right above his head, you know?

[Mike Pesca]

So what coping mechanisms did you employ?

[Henry Winkler]

Humor. I was a class clown. And because I was so embarrassed all the time, I would make people laugh. And I could win the dance contests at the school dances.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I think that came into play one time. Joni was bumped off the cheerleading school. That's right. And you won the dance contest.

[Henry Winkler]

Well, in the sixth grade, my parents took Me to see the Musayev Russian folklore dancing. And it was so powerful, and I was so moved by it. I taught myself a. A bastardized version of the Kazatsky.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Henry Winkler]

So I did that in temple.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Henry Winkler]

And I did it at school dances.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Henry Winkler]

And then I did it on Happy Days.

[Mike Pesca]

Were you ever in a production of Fiddler where they do that?

[Henry Winkler]

I was never in a production of Fiddler. Now, I could probably play the horse, you know, but no, I never. I never was.

[Mike Pesca]

Did. What about memorizing scripts? I mean, you got your MFA from Yale in 1970. Yes. That must have been hard.

[Henry Winkler]

It was hard because at that time, having no sense of self, it was very hard for me to focus. It was hard for me to just give over to the script because I was always so worried all the time. And it has taken me basically up until now to become the actor I dreamt of being when I first started.

[Mike Pesca]

And you think the dyslexia was.

[Henry Winkler]

I do. I do. I think that I was so not in charge of my own self. I was the bowl of jello before you put it in the icebox to congeal. I was shaking all the time.

[Mike Pesca]

So here I am talking to the Fonz. But I want to talk about the font, because I never knew this until I read the forward of this book. The font is amazing.

[Henry Winkler]

That's right. And I never knew about the font.

[Mike Pesca]

So this is new, the font that you use.

[Henry Winkler]

Brand new. And it's never been used in America before.

[Mike Pesca]

I knew about this.

[Henry Winkler]

It was devised by a dad in Holland for his children who are dyslexic. I believe he himself is dyslexic. What he has done is the sea. The opening of the sea is farther apart than most seas. The ink is heavier. The words are weighted. The extension of the F is longer. The dissension of the G is longer. And he put together this font that made it easier for the reluctant reader.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Henry Winkler]

To join the I and the page and have them be friends.

[Mike Pesca]

And I have to say that 100 out of 100 readers who did not know this and weren't dyslexic would in no way say, there's something weird about this font. It just looks like it's a little whimsical. Appropriate for a children's book.

[Henry Winkler]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

But that's good. That's.

[Henry Winkler]

When you look at it, you think, oh, my gosh, this is really easy to read. And especially since here's Hank is for the beginning reader, first, second, third grade. For the reluctant reader who thinks I Can't do it. This helps them.

[Mike Pesca]

Are there other things that I, as a non dyslexic person, don't even think about. There must be little changes that could help the dyslexic person more than, you know, I've ever even considered understanding them.

[Henry Winkler]

And not making fun of them.

[Mike Pesca]

Sure.

[Henry Winkler]

If I were to go into a store and I paid for a piece of pizza with paper money, I would not know how much change I get back, nor would I know how to count the change in my hand before I left the store and used a calculator.

[Mike Pesca]

I know you've transacted most of your business in America, but in England, where. Or Europe, where the money is different, different size, different color. Is that any easier?

[Henry Winkler]

No, no, it is not. Because the number is the same.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Henry Winkler]

Once you have it now I will say that the money are in Europe is way more beautiful.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, yes. And it used to be way more valuable, but now not really.

[Henry Winkler]

Well, you know, but even just we are so. We have such mundane money.

[Mike Pesca]

Although I do have to say with the euro, you know, they have bridges and Mostly bridges, some. Some other forms of transporter infrastructure. But the point was it can't be a real bridge. It just has to sort of symbolize because if it was in one country, it would alienate that country. Y. Yeah. So it's kind of an ecumenical current.

[Henry Winkler]

So from the planet Orc, it could be a bridge.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. And there was a Happy Days reference. So this gets us into a few of the questions I've always wanted to.

[Henry Winkler]

Go right ahead.

[Mike Pesca]

I'm.

[Henry Winkler]

I'm here. Okay, go.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you have a kinship with Jaleel White who played Urkel?

[Henry Winkler]

I don't. Except that I understand how difficult it is to play a character, have such wonderful success, have such a great fan base, and then you are only known for one character and he.

[Mike Pesca]

And just. And Gomer Pyle is in the same field where they start off as a minor character on a show, immediately they become the main character. Absolutely. Now this gets me to my next question. Do you bemoan.

[Henry Winkler]

Do you know Jaleel?

[Mike Pesca]

No, I've not met him. I know he's good at basketball, but.

[Henry Winkler]

See, there you go.

[Mike Pesca]

There's the Fonzie, Urkel. And they're both great names too.

[Henry Winkler]

Fonzie and Urkel and Gomer, produced by the same team.

[Mike Pesca]

Is this true?

[Henry Winkler]

Tom Miller, Bob Boyette, Eddie Milkus.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Was part of the. Becoming a different character was being a tough character, a tough guy?

[Henry Winkler]

No, I don't think it mattered. No, now, certainly the Fonz was everybody I wanted to be.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Henry Winkler]

And I never was, you know, I was never in that kind of control. I never had that kind of social life. I was never the apple of my, you know, circles, you know, of friends. But I don't know even if that sentence made sense.

[Mike Pesca]

The apple of the circle of friends.

[Henry Winkler]

Yes. The apple of their eye.

[Mike Pesca]

The apple of the eye. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Henry Winkler]

You know, I was always the. I was the core or the stem. So it took me a while to relax into being.

[Mike Pesca]

Henry, you mentioned character actor. And it's a crude distinction, but often a character actor is a really good actor who doesn't have the matinee idol looks. But as the Fonz, you're this sex symbol and then once they cast you as the Fonz, you become the Fonz. And I guess everyone agrees this is a good looking, sexy guy.

[Henry Winkler]

Okay. But I think that, that the good looks was not really. I was not, you know, classically great looking. I think that they like the character. Ergo, I became good looking.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. And everyone on the show agrees. Oh, this is the. This is the guy that.

[Henry Winkler]

Well, I was better looking than a lot of people on the show.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, that's very important to act next to Anson Williams. Yeah, well, he was a good looking one.

[Henry Winkler]

I was thinking Ralph Malf now is very handsome. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Fonzie's inability to say love.

[Henry Winkler]

This is wrong.

[Mike Pesca]

To say wrong. Oh, to say he's wrong. Yes, yes.

[Henry Winkler]

I could say, hey, listen, I want to tell you something. I love this interview, but I could not say.

[Mike Pesca]

Could not admit.

[Henry Winkler]

I could not admit that I was okay. That I was.

[Mike Pesca]

So here's my question. Does Happy Days invent that?

[Henry Winkler]

Is that the rest of this interview is the font.

[Mike Pesca]

That'd be okay.

[Henry Winkler]

Okay, me.

[Mike Pesca]

So, by the way, where'd a guy from Milwaukee get this accent?

[Henry Winkler]

It was very simple.

[Mike Pesca]

He was.

[Henry Winkler]

He was born in Milwaukee and he studied in New York City.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. Where? Which section?

[Henry Winkler]

I would say the Bronx.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Henry Winkler]

That's where Garry Marshall came from. So his real name was Marsha.

[Clint Watts]

Really?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Henry Winkler]

Get to the question.

[Mike Pesca]

Not saying wrong.

[Henry Winkler]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

Was that invented? Is this an old vaudeville bit?

[Henry Winkler]

It was. I don't know. I do not know that the writers. We had many, many writer. And they came up with this. And that's what I did. I couldn't eat liver.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Henry Winkler]

I couldn't see liver.

[Mike Pesca]

So you were ashamed of admitting you didn't want Richie to divulge this as a consequence of high school reporting?

[Henry Winkler]

It Was my kryptonite.

[Mike Pesca]

I remember that right. But.

[Henry Winkler]

And there's a great episode where Ron Howard holds it up to me and says, come on, take a bite.

[Mike Pesca]

Liver is pretty much gone. Kids.

[Clint Watts]

No longer.

[Mike Pesca]

No longer.

[Henry Winkler]

I used to have liver. My parents were very short Germans. And we had Liverpool and onions and mashed potatoes and tongue and boiled potatoes.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Henry Winkler]

With brown mustard.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, my God. Health food. Yeah, I want it. Yeah. I was in a German restaurant yesterday. I asked for vegetables, they gave me boiled celery.

[Henry Winkler]

Is that true?

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Henry Winkler]

But what about Spaetzel?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, Spaatzel.

[Clint Watts]

Hello.

[Mike Pesca]

So the question, though, with wrong is as much as we decry the three camera before a studio audience, I get.

[Henry Winkler]

The sense who's decrying it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, some people do. They did sophisticates. Sophisticates. This is so called sophisticates. I get this.

[Henry Winkler]

Oh, take your A frames and get out of here.

[Mike Pesca]

That you played off the crowd. And when they were loving it, it became its own thing because of the reaction. If you hadn't gotten that live reaction, maybe you wouldn't.

[Henry Winkler]

I don't know that that's true. But I had a wonderful time with the audience. The audience gives you an energy that it's unlike anything, like doing theater. I love going to and being in a plane.

[Mike Pesca]

There were times when the audience would laugh maybe at not exactly the part you wanted him to. You'd give him a look and it would stay on camera.

[Henry Winkler]

Well, because you know what? They screwed up the timing. Timing is everything.

[Mike Pesca]

You give him a look in character going, what are you doing?

[Clint Watts]

What are you doing?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, calm the down now. What did you do? I know that Seinfeld had this problem with. Kramer would come in the room, the audience would clap, and they wanted to get rid of this. So though eventually they said, no more clapping.

[Henry Winkler]

We didn't do that.

[Mike Pesca]

No, you indulge in it.

[Henry Winkler]

No.

[Mike Pesca]

Hey, you know what I'm gonna do to you?

[Clint Watts]

I'm gonna pop you one so you'll stop playing games. Now.

[Henry Winkler]

I would let him go, unless you want to make medical history. Good choice. Very nice.

[Mike Pesca]

Give me a.

[Henry Winkler]

And then Chachi came in the room and there was more clapping.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. So basically, you only had to write half a show the height of your life.

[Henry Winkler]

Well, you know what they did? They only wrote half a script for Robin Williams. It was scene, scene, scene, scene, scene. Robin will do something here. Scene, scene, scene, scene. Everybody had lines but Robin.

[Mike Pesca]

Your answer about knowing the Urkel experience and typecasting. Do you celebrate? Do you bemoan what do you think about the death of monoculture? You know, the idea that there were three networks. We all knew what was going on. The, like, it was very hard for you to escape that role because that's all we had.

[Henry Winkler]

Yeah, but you know what? Look, I've been able to do all of this wonderful stuff. I'm going to do a new show with Bill Hader on hbo. We did a wonderful show where I traveled the world with George Foreman, Bill Shatner and Terry Bradshaw and Jeff Dye, the standup comic. Yeah, we're going again.

[Mike Pesca]

I saw you guys in a dojo.

[Henry Winkler]

That's right.

[Mike Pesca]

At one point.

[Henry Winkler]

That's right. And we're now going again on that trip. I got to do Arrested Development. I got to do Children's Hospital. Now, you cannot tell those people. Brilliantly funny people. I did not understand more than two jokes in about seven years. I had no idea what I was saying.

[Mike Pesca]

You were obsessed with jet packs. There's nothing wrong with that. How about that?

[Henry Winkler]

Was that a great episode? That was amazing. Not good on the scrotum, but very funny.

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[Henry Winkler]

I'm gonna do what anybody in my position would do.

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[Henry Winkler]

I'm gonna design the world's first consumer jetpack.

[Clint Watts]

Yeah.

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[Clint Watts]

Whoa.

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[Clint Watts]

Yes.

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That was it. Again, we are totally in the same.

[Henry Winkler]

On the same page. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

And that's. That's a great example because this is a niche show. It's a 15 minute show. It would never have gotten on but for the fracture.

[Henry Winkler]

Now, what happens if you build it? They will come. Good television. You find good television. It's word of mouth. Today you've got catastrophe, which I don't know if you've ever seen it, but it is incredibly funny and smart and Rob Delaney and.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, yeah, the Irish couple. And they have the baby and.

[Henry Winkler]

Yeah, it's incredible.

[Mike Pesca]

And if a network tried to put that on from an era where you couldn't.

[Henry Winkler]

Wouldn't have gotten.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. What was the compromise with you in leather jackets?

[Henry Winkler]

Oh, that. I. Only if I was in a scene with my motorcycle.

[Mike Pesca]

Could you wear the leather. Otherwise it was too offensive to middle America. Yes. So we go from that.

[Henry Winkler]

We just saw Goliath.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Henry Winkler]

Okay. Unbelievable show. So if you build it, we will find it. What a lovely conversation.

[Mike Pesca]

I enjoyed it very much. Henry Winkler is the author of the Hank Zibzer books and the Newest one is always watch out for the flying potato salad. Here's Hank. Thank you, Henry. Great to meet you.

[Henry Winkler]

Thank you.

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[Mike Pesca]

Oh, hey. Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa. So is Saldana.

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[Mike Pesca]

Wow. IPhone 17s.

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[Mike Pesca]

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

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[Mike Pesca]

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

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[Mike Pesca]

Incredible.

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In fact, wrap up my old phone too, for my Aunt Rosa.

[Mike Pesca]

Forget that.

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Aunt Liz will be jealous.

[Mike Pesca]

Sounds like my family drama.

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Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?

[Mike Pesca]

T Mobile. The holidays are better. AT T Mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores. 24 monthly credits and 4 eligible board ends on essentials for well qualified customers. Auto pay + taxes, fees and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel contact US Finance Agreement. 256 gigabytes. $830 required. Visit T mobile.com and now we bring you another episode, another one of my favorites. It was with Clint Watts, who is an anti terrorism expert. And I was just watching one day, he went on. He went. Well, he was on C Span, but that's not the original intent. You go in front of Congress, you testify. And I said to myself, that is some effective testimony. And then when Clint came on in May of 2017, I asked him if he was game to do this. And he was. And we went back, we broke down what makes for effective congressional testimony. We broke down the game tape. And so now I resurrect this interview from 2017. Clint Watts, Testifier extraordinaire. Clint Watts is a security expert, a. He's become a Russia expert. He's a West Point graduate, a military man. He's a fellow, a fine fellow. In fact, he's a fellow at a few places like the Foreign Policy Research Institute and the center for Cyber and Homeland Security at gw About a month ago, I praised him on this show for his excellent testimony before Congress. And he has become the kind of expert that, you know, he tells Morning Joe what to think about the world. Hello, Clint. Thanks for coming in.

[Clint Watts]

Thanks for having me.

[Mike Pesca]

So, on this day, there are two strains that I wanted to get at. One is, I just want to talk about how you see the world and what the Russians are trying to do. And then I want to break down a little bit your testimony before Congress, the first time I ever became aware of you. So the first thing I want to ask is Trump as the beneficiary of Putin's efforts to sway the election? I think it's pretty well documented. It wasn't that Putin was so in love with Trump, it's that he loathed Hillary Clinton and thought that a Trump election would be disruptive. So my question is, even though Donald Trump will say, well, he called me brilliant, which was a mistranslation of the Russian, isn't it really an insult to Donald Trump that Putin chose him? If Putin defines him as the one to disrupt America?

[Clint Watts]

If Trump took it that way. I mean, Trump loves flattery. But in one sense, Putin is almost saying, you're a dupe for my causes. And whether you know it or not, I'm going to use you as an agent of influence amongst a population that I'm at odds with to try and steer them in a different direction. He did that very successfully. You can look at GOP and Democrat polling about their views towards Russia. That's changed dramatically in just four years. That has to do with Putin's support of Trump, and Trump therefore, echoing that in terms of his policy. In terms of the characterization, is he the Manchurian Candidate? I don't think so. I think there's no evidence of that. But the other is, is he a useful idiot? Means wittingly or unwittingly? He's taking the praise of Putin and running with it and taking Russian compromising actions, theft of someone's personal emails and many other government officials that are out of office, publishing those and then using them for media spin. I mean, he's using Russian active measures on his behalf to win an election.

[Mike Pesca]

And as you pointed out, once people say, well, is it collusion? Of course it's collusion. That's collusion. That might not be breaking the law, saying, hey, release these emails and they're released, but that's collusion.

[Clint Watts]

Absolutely. You look at it. And why would you ever turn towards Russian propaganda as your source of information to counter a U.S. opponent in an election that happened repeatedly?

[Mike Pesca]

But here's my question. Even if we take. Even if we have the kindest interpretation of Donald Trump, that he's a counterpuncher and he's instinctual and someone's helping him, he's gonna take the help, Is it plausible that people within his campaign, either Manafort or later Bannon, who at least claims to have studied the tactics of Putin, wouldn't have known that this is what the Russians do? I mean, the Russians did this in Hungary, the Russians did this in other elections.

[Clint Watts]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Should we think maybe the Trump campaign didn't know that this was Russian, the Russian fingerprints?

[Clint Watts]

There's no reason to believe that, because, I mean, Manafort's a campaign manager that worked in Ukraine. Before this had happened in Ukraine, this had happened in Hungary. You saw elements of it in the Czech Republic, you saw it around Brexit. This Russian influence effort isn't just about the US presidential campaign. It was a campaign of elections over a two year period. It continues today. France and Germany are the focus of their influence efforts. Now, this started long before the US campaign is, long after everyone knows that Russia is in the tank for certain candidates in these elections. Bannon seems to be fully aware of it. You've got General Flynn, who's visiting Russia, showing up with Putin at a table. You got Manafort, who's campaign manager, who's been essentially backed by the Russians. You've got Carter Page, who's on stage in Moscow citing propaganda that are business interests that are good for him.

[Mike Pesca]

He seems much more tied to the Russians than the Trump campaign, though. It seems like the Trump campaign just cited him once. And, you know, maybe he really never advised them, but he bragged that he was some Russian expert and adviser. Mike Flynn, you mentioned he would know. He takes money from rt, gives a speech. So that redounds poorly on Flynn, but also he has Trump's ear. I mean, there is no chance that Mike Flynn doesn't know that Putin influenced, tried to influence the Czech election, did influence the Hungarian election, did it in the exact way that he's trying to influence the American election via his candidate, via the guy he's advising all the time.

[Clint Watts]

Particularly for a person who claims to be the foremost expert on intelligence in the US government, I mean, headed the dia, the Defense Intelligence Agency, how could he claim, one, that he doesn't know about Russian influence, and two, that as an expert in counterintelligence which he's also supposed to be, that he was being compromised by showing up at a table with Putin and taking money from a Russian state sponsored news outlet. It doesn't add up, it doesn't make sense. I think his motivation was around fighting jihadists and fighting Iran.

[Mike Pesca]

So in other words, leverage. What help we're getting from, perhaps this is Flynn's mindset is what you're saying, look, Putin wants Trump to win. I think Trump winning would be a good thing for my number one issue, the jihadists. I'll take the help from this tainted source to get to where I want to be with jihadists.

[Clint Watts]

He saw it as an ally and he wanted revenge against Obama. I mean, he was fired by the Obama administration. Secretary Clinton was part of that. So this is his revenge against the people that spurned him. And I think that revenge is ultimately what led him to be compromised. He essentially compromised himself. I mean, the Russians offered. He didn't have to take it.

[Mike Pesca]

Did the Russians get what they paid.

[Clint Watts]

For in terms of Flynn or in terms of.

[Mike Pesca]

No, in terms of Trump being elected?

[Clint Watts]

No. It's going to backfire ultimately, because they influenced in such a way and in such an overt way. Hacking is covert. Influence is overt. You can't hide your hand in influence. Ultimately, it's not influence. And so what you're going to see is, and you're already starting to see this in some of the media reporting is Putin can't understand why he's not getting what he wants from the United States now that Trump's elected. There's been enough pushback, I think, on the Russian issue just over the last two to three months, that for Trump to take an overt Russian position or ally with Russia in the way he initially conceived it, it would play to the conspiracies of everyone's greatest fears.

[Mike Pesca]

Is it a shame what happened to the definition of fake news? How it's been co opted and now it doesn't mean anything?

[Clint Watts]

Yeah. I mean, fake news is used by both sides now for anything I don't want to hear or don't like.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Clint Watts]

And so that's going to make it difficult to solve this problem, especially when the President routinely says you are fake news, or I don't like this outlook because they don't speak favorably of me. So they are. Fake news makes it that much more difficult to build a cohesive plan. If you ever want to counter Russian active measures, you can't start if your president cites random sources basically off Twitter, comes up with allegations about his own people that he's in charge of that aren't true. Trump Tower is wiretapped. There is no evidence to support that. If he wanted to know that he's in charge of the country, he could have called the FBI director or the NSA director and asked them that. He didn't fires it out on Twitter. As long as he keeps using Russian active measures, there's no way to counter it. And that doesn't even speak to the policy issues. We don't have a Russia policy right now. If you're in the US government, I couldn't tell you what our stance is on Russia. And you can't go against Russian active measures if Russia is putting out anti eu, anti NATO, anti immigration. If you look at the Trump White House, they are anti eu, anti NATO, anti immigration. There is no counter to a message that you're also repeating.

[Mike Pesca]

When I first saw the phrase fake use being used to describe things like bots and kids in Macedonia just trying to earn a buck by inventing fake stories, I said to myself, ooh, this isn't a good label. I said to myself, this is going to be co opted. Okay, fine, so it's no one's fault. But does that get in the way of Americans really realizing what it's trying to convey and being alarmed by it?

[Clint Watts]

It makes them not understand the impact of foreign countries and their influence operations. The Russian model is there is no such thing as information. It's a war on information. There is no such thing as fact. There is no truth. It's all perceptions. And whoever has the best perception or the one that you like the most is the one that wins. And so if you believe that there is no such thing as fact, that means you can be co opted or coerced into almost anything. That is the Russian model. And you're even hearing that repeated in the United States. Now who stands to gain is the phrase the Russians will use. I've started seeing that or hearing that from Americans. Who stands to gain from this? If you hear that, that means they bought into the Russian system, whether they realize it's the Russian system or not.

[Mike Pesca]

And I'm hearing a lot of what about ism, right?

[Clint Watts]

What about it? What does it matter? Old Soviet KGB lines. Now it'd be Russian lines that you would hear which is there is no fact or fiction, there's just perception around it.

[Mike Pesca]

Now I want to turn to your testimony of a little over a month ago. I was gripped by it, by your comportment, the knowledge, the phrasing, even on a phrase Level. And I think that probably the phrase that got the most play was follow.

[Clint Watts]

The trail of dead Russians. There's been more dead Russians in the past three months that are tied to this investigation, who have assets in banks all over the world. They are dropping dead even in Western countries.

[Mike Pesca]

So let's just start there. Did you practice that in the mirror beforehand?

[Clint Watts]

That one I did not. Of all of them, there were some that I had prepared because I had three or four things I wanted to make sure I communicated. Trail of dead Russians just came off the top of my head. That one did.

[Mike Pesca]

And it's effective for a lot of reasons, but there's a tangible quality to it, and it becomes real to us.

[Clint Watts]

Right. And I was trying to emphasize that, too. In other words. So there were certain sets of facts that I memorized. I mean, I knew them intuitively, but I wanted to be able to recall it. So I think writing the testimony out, I wrote probably four times what I said there. I know I only had five minutes, which is extremely short. But I also think most people that go to testify are not giving the government officials the information they want. They're instead trying to show how smart they are oftentimes when they go in or that they have all the information.

[Mike Pesca]

I also think that there's the. They have the tendency to use hedge words, and they don't want to have made a mistake. To be sure, to be fair now, you have to understand you are much more direct. I don't think you said anything that you wouldn't stand by, and yet there was a directness to your testimony. I'm guessing that that was a strategy to some degree.

[Clint Watts]

Yeah, I think that goes back to my government time. I mean, most of my time coming up through the military, they don't have time to waste on me. They need critical information. When they ask me what I think, they want to know what I think and why. And so you better be specific about it. So when I prep the night before, the days before I write out my testimony, I immediately start truncating it down. And if I can't memorize it in five or six points, then I know I'm not on track and I don't know what I want to say.

[Mike Pesca]

So for one day of testimony, how much prep do you do?

[Clint Watts]

I would say I wrote on two different nights, probably two, three hours. I was trying to figure out how to write it. I did not want it to be the typical college thesis kind of testimony. So I wanted it to tell a story because I felt like active measures is so complicated. If you can't tell a story around that, it becomes a PowerPoint briefing that's super dull and no one can track on it. So I wanted to mix and match story with data, story with data, story with data. And then I also knew how I wanted to answer questions, and that's probably all I did. The last night and day, I went through what we can do about active measures and things that I wanted to drive home. I did want to talk about why the President makes Russian active measures so effective.

[Mike Pesca]

That was new. I've heard pundits say it. I've not heard it sort of introduced in a formal setting like that. Here is the danger of what President.

[Clint Watts]

Trump is doing during that moment. I was actually trying to recall, and I actually cut myself short. I had, I think, 15 examples, you.

[Mike Pesca]

Know, that I. Donald Trump or his campaign repeating Russian propaganda.

[Clint Watts]

He or his campaign doing Russian active measures on behalf of Russia. I had at least 15, couple specifics.

[Mike Pesca]

You cited a few times your military experience and analogized to it as you did to me here. It's like when I was in artillery, firing artillery everywhere. Once they get in a break, once they get a break in the wall, they flood in. That's who you are. Of course that's what you're gonna reference. But was that done by design to sort of say, look, I know I am here essentially giving some valid and sourced critiques of how the President operated, but also know that, you know, I'm military through and through a little bit.

[Clint Watts]

I mean, I thought it was a good analogy, and that's how I learned it. And so I thought that was a good visual or a way to explain it, because information warfare is a type of warfare, but you got to have a visual around it. And these people that are just coming into it and trying to get their heads around it oftentimes just see it as political campaign kind of messaging. And like, oh, let's red state, blue state, let's get everybody emotional about some topic and spread this message. That's kind of garbage when we've been doing information warfare. Al Qaeda, isis, that's where I was working on it at.

[Mike Pesca]

We have a PSYOPS unit out of Fort Bragg. I visited it. It's warfare.

[Clint Watts]

And this is a warfare approach, an information warfare approach. One the Russians do much better than Americans and understand much better.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, they have to. I mean, all this stuff about how crafty the Russians are, when you don't have the best hand, you have to, you know, pull out more stops at the card table.

[Clint Watts]

Absolutely. And cyber, they quickly recognize cyber as a domain for information warfare, that they could have never achieved this during the Soviet era. You know, we studied it in school or in the military from the Soviet perspective, and it never worked, because to get somebody to write a Communist newspaper in New York City, you'd have to have an agent, you know, working with a political party. And. And how do you get the distribution out? And, man, social media is a dream come true for this. You can sit on the other side of the world. You can identify your target audience, you can see what their grievances are. You can pump them content by minute, that appeals to them. You can see what works and quickly readjust. It's pretty amazing how effective it can be.

[Mike Pesca]

Another thing you did during your testimony is you frequently mentioned the senators, because everyone who ran for president had this done against them to some extent. You mentioned Rubio, who was there. You mentioned Cruz. That must have been done by design, as in, this could happen to you.

[Clint Watts]

Yeah. I wanted to stress that it was not a partisan issue. I felt like it was important for me to drive home to them that Russian active measures didn't stop on Election Day, that this is going to continue, that it wasn't just the Democrats that got targeted, it was also the Republicans. And that the Republicans should be wary, because if they start to press on Trump or turn Trump against Russia, they're going to be the ones that are in the crosshairs. And you're already starting to see that of people a lot. Little bit.

[Mike Pesca]

At one point, and this was probably the second most widely quoted thing that you say. You talked about how, for the first time ever, you're not sure that anybody has your back. What was your intent on going on that little riff?

[Clint Watts]

I was trying to point out that it was quite possible that I would walk out the door that day and I would be attacked by the White House or by the inner circle as being some sort of shill for Clinton, that I've got some sort of ax to grind or whatever it might be. I was trying to, again, emphasize that if it's really about Americans and Americans first, where is our unity? Part of the Russian strategy is divided they stand, divided they fall. That's really what they believe. If you look at everything they're trying to do, break up NATO, break up the eu, break up the United States in terms of support, when people are divided, they can go one to one. And to think that after all my time in the military, all my time working FBI intel or whatever, I wasn't worried about Putin and cyber attacks that already happened to me anyways. I was more concerned that I would walk out and it would be politicians that would turn on me.

[Mike Pesca]

So you knew that these were things you wanted to say. You anticipated what the counterpunch would be and you deployed measures to sort of denude the power of that counterpunch.

[Clint Watts]

Yeah, I mean, and I still got some of those counter punches, you know, when I walked out the door. And I will, if I appear on one media outlet or another. I'm either a shill for Clinton. It's funny because during the Obama days I was a war hawk right winger because I was okay with the use of drones. So I was considered a psychopath in counterterrorism circles. And so you're going to get that no matter what, people aren't going to look by it. But I was trying to drive home that Russian active measures is a long term threat to us aside from this one election. And that if they play into the partisanship of this, you know, coming out of that intel committee, we are just doing Russia's work for them. And it is still working today.

[Mike Pesca]

By the way, my last observation, I think maybe the most important one, the reason the testimony was so good was because the senators did their job and they, both Republican and Democrat, it seems to me, were honestly interested in what you had to say. Didn't use the time to give a little speech and then ask a rhetorical question, were receptive to the information you gave, were even egging you on. Tell me more. It seemed like an ideal for what, how you would want the people conducting the hearing to be.

[Clint Watts]

Yeah, I was refreshed. I mean, democracy worked the way it was designed that day, Democrat and Republican, it didn't matter who it was in the room, was focused on the issue at hand. I did not expect that going in. And I don't know that I've even gotten that entirely on other times I've testified. But I felt really good about it. I actually felt pretty pumped up when I left there to see how the senators handled it on both sides of the aisle.

[Mike Pesca]

Clint Watts, Foreign Policy Research Institute Fellow, center for Cyber and Homeland Security fellow expert, Russia terrorism. You know, star C Span. Thanks, Clint.

[Clint Watts]

Thank you.

[Mike Pesca]

And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the Gist. Michelle Pesca, I'll list her next. First in my heart, she is the COO of Peach Fish Productions. And then there's Jeff Craig, he oversees all of our socials. And Kathleen Sykes very much helps me with the gist. List. No Improve G Peru Do Peru thanks for listening.

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[Mike Pesca]

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