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- [00:00]
Holly Buck
Foreign
- [00:04]
Mike Pesca
It's Wednesday, May 27, 2026, from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca. You know, there are so many areas of the world that the United States and the citizens thereof just do not pay attention to the actually defined genocide. In Sudan, I don't know, somewhere between 140 to 400,000 dead. That's just in this go round. The war that ended a couple of years ago in Tigray. Did anyone know about Tigray? Or is it even the Tigray region? No, no one knows how to pronounce it in America because it's almost never pronounced. You count everyone starved and displaced and also take into account that the US funds the government of Ethiopia as the third biggest foreign aid recipient in 2022. So that takes, takes care of the. Well, we don't care because we're not implicated. Sure we are. The Rohingya people displaced from Myanmar. You know there's a trial in front of the ICJ about it. How many of us know about that? And I realize more knowledge doesn't equal more justice, but a greater visibility into these atrocities would inarguably lead to at least more accurate opinions domestically. But what can we do about it? What can we do about the poor, wronged, immiserated, war torn, ravaged people who we ignore? How can we make the US care? I have a solution. Put them in a cave.
- [01:34]
Lead Rescue Diver / CBS Reporter
Five of seven miners trapped in a remote mine in central Laos have been found alive. Rescuers have been risking their lives to comb through these pitch black tunnels to find them.
- [01:45]
Mike Pesca
The Laotian miners have been found. And for days we cared. Or at least we kind of cared. I mean, it made the news. And though two the minors remain unsaved or possibly unsavable, this has been riveting. Well, if not riveting, at least attracting some of our attention in a way that no individual in Sudan ever has. So I say put them in a cave. The rohingya refugees, there's 1.2 million in Bangladesh, a couple thousand in Pakistan. You put 7, 8, 9. I'd say up to 13 of them. That's how many kids in the coach were in that Thai soccer team. You put that many in a cave, we're going to pay attention. We ignored and defunded early Ebola detection in Congo. Well, what if they were in a cave? We'd be searching for them now and doing interviews with them and then after rescuing them, maybe doing some testing. Look, I know putting them in a cave isn't the perfect solution. Some refugees are cave hesitant. The landscape of many of the Sudanese countryside totally devoid of caves. It's not particularly scalable as a solution. But you know, going from zero Sudanese people who an American has ever seen on the news or been asked to envision, quick picture a Sudanese who's suffering in the war, you can't do it. You can only guess. So going from that number of 0 to 2 or 3 or 5 in a cave, infinitely more attention. And after you get stuck in a cave, you, you apparently get some connectivity.
- [03:19]
Lead Rescue Diver / CBS Reporter
I just got off the phone with Mikko Passi, who is the lead rescue diver. He was actually calling from inside the cave where they had rigged WI fi already.
- [03:28]
Mike Pesca
That was from CBS this morning. This morning. And if the WI fi goes down or if our attention wanes, you have Elon Musk call one of the rescuers a pedophile. You don't even have to entice him to do so. He will just naturally want to chime in as he hasn't chimed in ever, but about Sudan or the Rohingya. Now, if my put him in a cave plan doesn't work, I do have, and I'm sitting on another one, it's a little more ambitious, it's more high tech. And this will all be laid out in my next working paper, admittedly not peer reviewed. Stick them on the space station. On the show today, the power of our example not so powerful. But first, Holly Buck is a professor in the Department of Environment and Sustainability at the University of Buffalo. She has not just long a long title, but impeccable credentials. She's quite brilliant on how to save our Earth. And she's been looking at the threat of data centers and also the discourse about data centers and their power needs to power AI. And she says, whoa, the most progressive solutions out there are getting it all wrong. And she wrote this up for Jacobin, not the usual landing page for anti Bernie, anti AOC type arguments, but there it was. And now here she is, Holly Buck on data centers and our energy needs. Ever notice how the second you Google something, every ad you get is about that thing, banner ads, and they chase you all around. And if the thing that you were googling is not something maybe that defines you, you don't want that. You definitely don't want that. Or try to watch something when you're traveling and that thing is just blocked. There are so many ways that the Internet, this miracle of communication is less than a miracle and less than open. And that's why I started using Proton vpn. This content isn't available in your region. Well, there are no regions with Proton vpn. Whether you're traveling or just at home and you don't want your online activity or following you all the time, that's your activity. Proton VPN takes the power back and gives it to you. It adds a layer of protection that keeps your browsing habits private. Unlike most VPNs, Proton is backed by strong European privacy laws and years of expertise creating safer, faster and more open Internet for everyone. So whether you want to watch content from anywhere, get around block sites or just keep your activity private on public Wi Fi or Proton VPN has you covered, it's easy to get started. Right now Proton VPN is offering our listeners 70% off a two year plan. When you go to Proton vpn.com/gist that's here's the spelling part pro to n vpn.com/gist for 70% off your two year plan. That's protonvpn.com gist we all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask. Even in 2026. Enter how to the long standing advice show and Ambie Award nominated Best Personal Growth Podcast. That's back with new episodes and a new host. And that host. Here's the reveal. It's me, Mike Pesca. Each week I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond, with help from world class experts who actually know what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silence. No question is too big or too specific. Some topics how to protect the elderly from scammers, how to take psychedelics therapeutically, and of course how to emigrate to the Netherlands as a throuple. You've got questions. We'll find the answers. So follow how to with Mike Pesca on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The Artificial Intelligence Data Center Moratorium act proposed by Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez argues for a quote reasonable pause. And who can argue with a quote reasonable pause? I'll tell you who. Holly Buck. She's an associate professor of Environment and Sustainability at the University of Buffalo and she wrote a corker of an essay in Jacobin of all places titled Democratic Governance of a I Is the Real Solution. Now, if you don't know Jacobin, they're socialist. They also pursue very high minded ideals. You knew there'd be a counter essay to come a week or so later and there was But I want to get into what Holly is saying, what we should be doing about this issue of AI data centers drawing so much energy. Welcome to the gist, Holly.
- [08:33]
Holly Buck
It's great to be here. Thank you.
- [08:35]
Mike Pesca
Okay, so let's go over some of your top line critiques of this moratorium. And I'm sure in this, this answer you will talk about how reasonable the, the pause is. One is you think this reasonable pause, the moratorium, is one a massive, massive strategic blunder for the left. How so?
- [08:55]
Holly Buck
I think this politics of blocking infrastructure is a way to gain leverage over capital, as some might say, or to gain broader political aims. Is a dead end for a number of reasons.
- [09:10]
Mike Pesca
Right. For abundancy reasons. But take it specifically to this. I'll try to steel man the well. We just mean AI side, which is this is unprecedented. This is not stopping a power line in Minnesota. This is so new and it's going so fast, we don't have time to really consider it. So please consider what we're doing in this pause separate from the rest of the trend of no infrastructure in the name of equity in the environment.
- [09:39]
Holly Buck
Yes. The first thing is that a pause on new data centers isn't really going to slow the progress of AI because we still have a bunch of data centers. What it's going to do is make it more difficult for ordinary people, small businesses, researchers to access AI because with that compute crunch, that capacity constraint, the prices are going to go up. The big companies who can afford that are going to be the ones accessing it. But if you set aside the whole issue of a moratorium won't work. There's some other concerns with this blanket approach to just having a nationwide pause on data center constructions. So one is there's equity issues in terms of where do those data centers go instead of do they get offshored to other countries that might have a more fragmented grid, might have weaker environmental and social regulations. This has been a big pattern in a lot of different industries. So that was one kind of red flag about this approach. There's some reasons I'll just pause you
- [10:48]
Mike Pesca
and make the analogy to let us stop drilling for oil here. Oil is a globally traded fungible commodity, the environmental impacts of which are dispersed throughout the globe. So if you have oil not drilled in the United States, which I'm sure, sure which I know AOC and Bernie Sanders and those in their coalition support this, will just get transplanted or moved elsewhere. And overall, the overall amount of oil won't change. Change in the environmental standards of getting the oil in other countries will be worse than the United States. That's the analogy that came to mind for me at least.
- [11:24]
Holly Buck
Yeah, exactly. I'm talking to you from New York State. We had a ban on fracking, which was great for local landowners that were concerned about the impacts of the fracking, but we're still importing natural gas from Pennsylvania and elsewhere and burning a lot of it. So you can deal with the local land use issues. This way it doesn't get to a global problem like global climate change or in the case of AI, some of the existential big disruptive risk concerned about with AI.
- [11:56]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, in fact, in my notes I wrote a lot like fracking. I don't know if you'd agree with me on that one. Fracking is one of these terms that if you don't look into it too much, it's very incendiary. But if you do look into it, it does seem to be a least worst option anyway. I also think on the equity concerns, I have read the NAACP 17 bullet points about equity and AI data centers and some of them just blow my mind in terms of things that will never happen, sorry to say, in the real world, like infrastructure must be community led. Instead of massive corporate hubs, we envision local, decentralized and public interest technology and energy projects, including micro grids, broadband expansion and shared spaces that strengthen communities rather than exploit them. Okay, that's a great ideal, but is that, I mean, you're an expert in these things. Is that how to actually plug in a toaster and make it work?
- [12:56]
Holly Buck
I think we can be steering things in a direction that resonates with some of those points. And this is what I've worked on in my career with climate and energy, thinking about how to make sure new infrastructure actually delivers community benefits. So there's a lot we could be doing. And the fact that these big companies really want and need to build data centers as a point of leverage where instead of giving a bunch of tax breaks, we could be getting more taxes from them, getting other sorts of community benefits, making sure that they're built with the best cooling systems available to use less water, powering them by clean energy. Those are all things that we could be asking for so we can have better data centers rather than worse ones. My point in the article was more of you don't need a blanket moratorium to do all that.
- [13:46]
Mike Pesca
Well, would a blanket moratorium give leverage to that cause rather than asking and hoping that these behemoths give in or allow some scraps from their table to fall upon us, the great unwashed. Right. This is the one point where we could say no, we actually at this one critical juncture can stop you from getting what you want and therefore we can get, we the people can get more of what we want. Why is that a bad political strategy?
- [14:23]
Holly Buck
Well, I think it should be done on a case by case basis because there are some communities who do actually want data centers, believe it or not, like so, you know, it disadvantages them if the state or the whole country has a moratorium and, and it keeps us from exploring those better models of what a build out looks like. But my point in the article was more that the coalition that's coming together to fight these data centers has really different interests when it comes to dealing with climate change, dealing with the social safety net, other aspects of AI governance. Just because they agree on blocking a thing doesn't mean they're going to agree on the way forward. So I think we're just using a lot of energy with this whole blocking enthusiasm that we should just be putting directly into the real solutions.
- [15:16]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, think about all the energy used by that, as you know, all the CO2 expended. To that end. I will now read to you from the rebuttal article by a guy named Aaron Reagan Berg who is with, among other things, Public Citizen and he writes about this exact point. Some moratorium opponents have framed the diversity of these coalitions as a deficit. As Buck, your Buck wrote, part of why the moratorium push is such a dead end is because the disparate right left coalitions that have emerged around stopping data centers have different interests when it comes to other issues. It would be interesting if he had gone on to continue quote you, quoting you to tell his audience exactly what you meant. But as he puts it now we end quote. And he writes, but building coalitions among constituencies with different interests when it comes to other issues is the entire work of politics and always has been. He think it's great that disparate coalitions have come together. Set him right, Holly Buck.
- [16:18]
Holly Buck
Well, I would agree with, with him if I looked at this picture and thought that that's what we were doing. I've been, you know, I'm trained in rural sociology. I've been writing a book on rural abundance. I've been going around the country talking to rural communities and a lot of them feel like coastal elites have not really been addressing their concerns and are kind of proceeding down a different path. So if we had all of this that's went into climate philanthropy, that's now going into Data centers. If that money was being channeled to address what rural communities are actually concerned about and desiring, that would be great. The picture I'm looking at is not that picture. What I'm seeing is multi layered. You have data center opposition in particular places that is grassroots and organic in terms of people coming together in their community to stop a thing. And in many cases it's warranted. In some cases, I don't know, but there is a grassroots dimension. And then you have this other layer which is this mediatized networked infrastructure of Facebook groups, Instagram, TikTok influencers that are cashing in basically on this AI panic to spread different types of content. And I don't think this is, is a real coalition building exercise. I think it's being constructed by these media platforms.
- [17:51]
Mike Pesca
Yes. And in another article of yours that I read, you get into who some of that coalition is. Some of the, maybe Maha or MAGA is putting it nicely. Can you tell us about that?
- [18:05]
Holly Buck
Yeah. So you already have a constituency of people that's at root concerned about technology and the direction it's going, who's controlling it, the impacts on the environment. I think the root concerns, I'll just say up front, are valid. So this stems from environmentalism. But then it went off the rails in an odd direction. What I call para environmentalism, where you have concerns about.
- [18:31]
Mike Pesca
And that's. And the para is paranormal, that sort
- [18:35]
Holly Buck
of like, you know, outside what's considered legitimate. Right.
- [18:40]
Mike Pesca
I mean maybe some of these people have parasocial relationships with RFK Jr. Which, who's a main character in your article about this, the rise of Green maga. But sorry to interrupt. Tell, tell us about the para environmentalism that Aaron was advocating as this great example of a left right coalition.
- [19:01]
Holly Buck
Yeah, so it is, it is left right and people are concerned about who's in control. Basically they see these new technologies being rolled out regarding the Internet or 5G or what they believe to be chemtrails. There's a whole host of things, vaccines. Covid was really an energizing moment where people started to link all of these into one kind of platform of things that they didn't want. And so data centers isn't a new thing. And there's a lot of conspiracies that are trafficked about these. Some of them are closer to real concerns. There's definitely real concerns about noise, but that merges into concerns about infrasound. There's different concerns about what are they building them for. Are there going to be chips in our brains it just keeps going. Whereas some of these groups that I've been following for a while that were anti data centers that were very place based a year ago, now they're just sharing the same memes that are also going around anti renewable groups about blocking transmission, about wind turbines killing birds, all of these sorts of things. So as a climate person, I'm looking at this, I'm like, you might hope that this movement is going to radicalize people into progressive policies, but I think it's equally if not more likely that people start out kind of progressive and get radicalized into these conspiracies right in
- [20:34]
Mike Pesca
the name of politics. And there's tried and true political thought, which is you make common cause with those who share your interests and you don't gatekeep how they got there. But the downside of that is when some of these people aren't a left right coalition, but a wrong right coalition and dangerously wrong and totally unscientific, well then you find yourself in coalition where with pretty dangerous folks and maybe you could get your moratorium pause, but what then? And so you are advocating for instead of the pause. Here's a bunch of things we could do better. Here's how we can extract concessions from AI. Let me read a part of your essay and then I'll put the question to you. How many of these people, those opposed to it, will block data centers but end up paying for a subscription to a frontier model once it's clear how useful it is to navigate daily work and life? It's not fair for affluent environmentalists and property owners to try to stop development in this infrastructure before most people in the world have even had a chance to work with and learn from these models. So I know what the critique of this is, which is something like, yeah, the bourgeoisie will adhere to the interests of the owners of capital. It's the classic example of those with a little more money or the perception of a little higher class status selling out or not even recognizing their class interests. Right? And especially with AI, the counterexample is yeah, these people who are middle managers now think of themselves as part of a class. But AI's going to flatten all that and one day we'll all be serfs. And the ability for someone who used to be an HR executive to get a good frontier model will pale in comparison to all that has been wrought. So what would you say to that?
- [22:28]
Holly Buck
I mean, I think the what the questions I was asking about the class dynamics and the provocation were really what touched a nerve with people about this piece to the point where some of them didn't engage with the other arguments in it. And a lot of the people critiquing this work, they have degrees from Harvard and Brown and Yale and elsewhere, STEM degrees or kind of law degrees, I don't know, different sorts of degrees. But I do think it's poses existential questions for this professional managerial class, as you might put it. I think I'm concerned about this because I work and teach in Buffalo, New York at a state school that really is an engine of opportunity and I see what my students are able to do with AI when instructed in how to use it. And there's something good here that I don't want to be lost.
- [23:26]
Mike Pesca
I'll read another part of your essay to you and put to you what I think might be a critique of, of the ilk that you've been hearing. Offshoring will put limitations on COMPUTE that will induce tech companies to raise prices and small businesses, academic and nonprofit researchers and individuals will be the first to lose access. Right. So this is the argument about if we ban it here, it'll go somewhere else and then who will suffer? Those that you listed. It's an equity argument, but I think a lot of the people who believe in degrowth would say, well that's a good thing. You know, that's a good tradeoff. We are always presented with the specter of some upper middle class losses. But you can't really fundamentally change the economy in the way that they think is necessary without having these massive changes. In fact, I read a lot of your essay and the counter essay as just a proxy for larger issues like should we try to increase our gdp, you know, should we try to have more knowledge workers or sustain our, our economy, you know, on the current, in the current way we do with knowledge workers, business and white collar workers being a large part of it. So even though I've complicated that essential question, what would you say to the, the degrowth crowd who reads or hears your warning siren and says, yeah, that's what we're signing on for?
- [25:02]
Holly Buck
Well, I have a lot of thoughts about degrowth and I don't want to let us to be here all day, but I think that one important thing about the context for this data center build out is that we knew that we needed to really increase energy, like we needed to build out transmission, you know, between four or five times what it is now if we're going to get to these net zero climate goals, which I happen to believe are directionally the right thing we should be striving for. We knew that we needed to build a lot more wind, solar, renewables, batteries, other sources of clean firm. So if you see this within the context of that picture, this is why I think the blocking infrastructure strategy really falls short. We're at this moment where we have to build out so much more capacity because we're trying to electrify transportation, industry, buildings, all of these other sources. So I'm definitely pro energy growth because this is what the math says. It's not feasible to degrow our economy to the degree that some people might think. And I say this because I've spent a lot of time looking at global models around this.
- [26:25]
Mike Pesca
So should there be any national legislation or just local deals on data center energy buildouts?
- [26:33]
Holly Buck
That's a very good question. I have a hard time answering it definitively, especially in the context of our broken Congress that can't even agree on very basic things. Realistically, I think that the state level policies will be probably the broadest. I think that there's just a lot here that if you really believe communities should have local control, then why would you support these big moratoriums? Shouldn't you be saying, you know, it should be at the county level?
- [27:08]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. So their answer would be a moratorium would allow for local control. It's going so fast now that you can't trust the town elders of North Memphis or these other places to get their acts together.
- [27:21]
Holly Buck
Yeah, but you know, there are a lot of states already doing some success.
- [27:25]
Mike Pesca
Ah, the gentle fade. I'm not going to asmr you. I'm going to tell you it's a Pesca plus. Oh, oh, oh. It's Pesca plus. You get more of this interview from soup to nuts. We gave you the soup, we gave you the main course, but what about the nuts? I mean it. In a hold em poker term it can't be beat what we've put behind the paywall. But we welcome you to it. Go to subscribe mike pesca.com to become a Pesca plus subscriber. Subscribe.mike pesca.com or just get the show ad free. Give yourself a favor. Your time's worth it. Subscribe subscribe.mikepaska.com. I want to talk about Navy dolphins. Did you know that our desire to assist the older, they don't like to be called aged, but the older Navy dolphins helped unlock a secret to healthy aging for all of us? Yes, I am excited to share with you. C15 from Fatty15, the first emerging essential fatty acid to be discovered in more than 90 years. A scientific breakthrough that supports healthy aging. Here's the dolphin connection. 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I'm feeling a little of the effect. I think fatty 15 is helping on that mission. Fatty 15 was developed to support healthy aging for all from kids to parents to grandparents. That's why award winning fatty 15 is now available as pure capsules, delicious apple mint gummies for teens and adults, and Yummy Berry blast gummies for kids. Fatty 15 is on a mission to support healthy aging for all, including all ages and stages of life. You could get an additional 15 off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com gist and using code gist at checkout. And now the spiel. Former DHS secretary Jeh Johnson was on Meet the Press this Sunday and he was bemoaning the US's falling status in the world. We're leading, I regret to say, by the example of our power. Not. Not the power of our example anymore. Now I got to say, you don't hear that construction quite so much. It's a chiasmus. It's a reversal of. It could be sounds or it could be words. So the sound version would be I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. The FRA and the bar. But words wise. Oh, there are so many of them in politics. Here was Michael Reagan at the 2004 Republican National Convention. The place where man was not beholden to government, but in fact government was beholden to man. And here was John Kerry from his convention same year, quoting a very famous chiasmus I don't want to claim that God is on our side, as Abraham Lincoln told us. I want to pray humbly that we are on God's side. So chiasmus is also called anti metaboli. That's the word version only. But chiasmus as the sound version or the word version, the inversion, that has gone a bit out of favor. And those examples that I gave you were from a report I did for NPR 22 years ago and they've gone out of favor because they seem a little stodgy, a little clunky. In theory, they may cause a chuckle, but I wouldn't want to buy stock in the laughter. It's more likely you'll be a laughing stock, which is underlying the point of J.E.H. johnson, whose chiasmus secret identity is John Jason. But don't ignore that. Think about this idea of the US As a laughingstock. You've heard it recently during the Trump administration. The US Is no longer a reliable partner or the power of the example that Johnson was citing. Well, that's true, but the no longer we remember this right? Trump was president nine years ago and and eight and seven and six years ago and the world was on notice then. And anti European sentiment within Europe is also pretty rife. But my main point about wow, we've really lost our status in the eyes of the rest of the world. It's much less true than we think it is. Perhaps you talk to Europeans who bemoan along with you what Trump has done to the United States, but the overall status of America was never really riding high, except for a couple of very notable times that we fixate on World War II, Yalta, the Berlin airdrop, yes, that was the height of American power and American respect. But you know, then Vietnam definitely tarnish our reputation and Operation Condor and trying to manipulate Latin American countries through coups that didn't give us the respect of the world. And the hostage crisis in Iran and the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan and even being attacked on 9 11. Where was the riding high respect of the world period during all of this? Remember, before anyone ever thought of Trump as anything but a reality TV show guy, there was the line of, you know, right on 911 everyone respected us and we frittered away that respect. So I'm not even going to debate or argue that or how much everyone likes a victim. But remember, the theory then was we frittered away our respect. But now because of Trump, he's the reason we frittered away our respect. My point is yeah, we've done some frittering. Some frittering has certainly occurred, but it's. The respect was never that great. Do you want to say it was before World War II? I mean, America was mostly isolationists. You know, brief period of Wilson in World War I. We don't even join the League of Nations where we riding high through the power of our example. When we did that, the world couldn't have looked at the Philippines war and say, wow, these guys are terribly impressive. Maybe the Spanish could. They were acting much worse during the Philippines war and in Cuba and during the time of Nixonian drift and bushy and drift. I don't know. Was there really so much status to fritter away? And when we say the world looks at us differently, I think we usually mean Europe looks at us differently, not the Russia part of Europe, because who cares about them? They used to look at our example and now they don't really. I mean, did they stop looking at our example when they were going through their embarrassing decolonization period? France with Algeria and the English with the MAU MAU Rebellion and also Northern Ireland. We really cared about the respect of these Brits who are oppressing the Irish. It's all a bit overblown, the power of the example thing. And it is also true that the example of our power was really powerful. And if nothing else, continues to be the major source of the power of our example. The fact that we have the planes, we have the troops, and we have the bombs and we have the missiles and we have the technology. Ten times more than our next closest rival, China, and maybe hundreds of times more than any European power. The actual power of our power is the most powerful. As compared to our example, the US still fights extraordinarily well. Not always extraordinarily wisely, but extraordinarily well. And we have capacity that the world can't touch. And whether that's the root of respect or fear in the pure Machiavellian sense doesn't really matter. That's just rhetoric. And the specific piece of rhetoric happens not to be the chiasmus. That's it for today's show. The gist is produced by Cory Wara. The singer of fame and flashdance who decided to take up arms is Worry Cara. The producer of how to is Jeff Craig. Your Color College Retirement Equities Fund holdings of Jacobs Engineering Group is Cref jag. The Just list is put together by Kathleen Sykes. When her corgi obeys her, it psychs up. Kathleen Ben Astaire is our booking producer. Our producer of booking is Expedia and Michelle Pesca is in charge of checks and balances while also balancing our checkbook. Improve G Peru de Peru. Or maybe Ju Peru e Peru de Peru de Perui Peru do Peru. I haven't chiasmid that one. Thanks for listening.