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Is Masculinity A Prison? - Mike on Open to Debate
00:41:51
Listen to the full debate on Open to Debate’s podcast channel or watch it on YouTube: Men are falling behind in our society, and some point to traditional ideas of masculinity as the cause. What does it mean to “be a man” today, and how do...
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- [00:00]
Lux Alptraum
From the Cascades to PDX to your kitchen.
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Moderator (Neymar Raza)
We recycle like we live here.
- [00:06]
Mike Pesca
That's why governments, brands and recycling companies are all joining together to bring change.
- [00:11]
Lux Alptraum
To make recycling better.
- [00:12]
Mike Pesca
As in trusting that your recyclables end.
- [00:14]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Up in the right places to be.
- [00:16]
Lux Alptraum
Made into new things and having brands.
- [00:18]
Mike Pesca
Help fund the cost of recycling. You can find the Latest updates@recycleon.org Oregon. From Mount Hood to the bin under.
- [00:27]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Your desk, together we can do this.
- [00:30]
Mike Pesca
It's okay not to be perfect with finances.
- [00:33]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Experian is your big financial friend and here to help.
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Mike Pesca
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Moderator (Neymar Raza)
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- [00:46]
Mike Pesca
Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't.
- [00:51]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved. Initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores.
- [00:58]
Lux Alptraum
Experian.
- [01:03]
Mike Pesca
Hi, it's Saturday. It's the Saturday show, and we bring you the Best of the Week or the Best of the Vault. A little kind of close to each on this one because you probably heard on the show I was talking and publicizing my debate with an organization called Open to Debate on the subject is masculinity a prison? I even gave you a discount code so that you could come to watch me at the Comedy Cellar. Anyway, this week they aired that, or it was actually over last week and they aired that on a lot of NPR stations. What they do, the Open to Debate people, great organization, they cut it down to a manageable hour. I think the real thing went maybe an hour 20. So that's an incentive to always go to the live event. You get more. And what I'm going to do on this show is take that hour and cut out some of the middle parts. But I thought the opening was strong. I think the closing was strong. It was all strong throughout the But I'm perhaps saving you some time, perhaps further incentivizing you to go and engage with the source material. My debating partner, or my debating rival was Lux Altrum, who is a very nice person who I've done some stuff with before and she is, she is of the belief that masculinity is indeed a prison. I took the con side and just like many prisoners, I think calling them cons afterwards is stigmatizing. So this is my point. If there's no other takeaway, it's that please enjoy. Is masculinity a prison pro. Lux Altrum Con Mike Pesca Cooler temperatures are rolling in and as always, Quince is where I'm turning for fall staples that actually last. From cashmere to denims to boots. The quality holds up and the price still blows me away. In fact, the price is so low it's shocking. But it's also super soft in the case of their cashmere sweaters, 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at brace yourself $60 and the denim fits right. And the question that maybe you ask is what makes it different? Well, they partner directly with good ethical factories. Skip the middleman. You know this really. It's a little bit of a cliche, but it does kind of work. Somewhere those middlemen are making money and laughing and laughing and mocking you for paying too much for a cashmere sweater. Quince has really become a go to across the board Bedding, bath, cookware, travel accessories. Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quints. Go to quince.com the gist for for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com the gist free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the gist falls here and for me that means comfort meals, cozy nights and tailgating weekends. And Omaha Steaks makes it all easy. I love having their premium steaks and juicy burgers ready in my freezer. I recently grilled their filet mignon. So tender, flavorful and better than anything I've had elsewhere. Right now during their Red Hot sale you get 50% off site wide plus get an extra $35 off with code Flavor at checkout. Get fired up for fall grilling with omaha steaks visit omaha steaks.com for 50% off site wide during their Red Hot Sale event and for an extra $35 off use promo code flavor at checkout. That's 50% off at Omaha Steaks.com and an extra $35 off with promo code Flavor at checkout. See site for details.
- [04:54]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Hey everyone, thanks for being here tonight. The Comedy Seller I'm Neymar Raza. I am a journalist. I have a show called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. But I also frequently moderate the show Open to Debate, which is kind of like the NPR version of a UFC battle cage. We fight with our words here at Open to Debate and that cage fight metaphor is really relevant tonight because we are talking about the question of whether masculinity is a prison. Well listen Tonight is about men. I think many, many of you might think every night is about men. And in some ways it is, but it's really broader than that. It's about whether we as a society might be confining men, might be incarcerating them. Even in on TikTok, which is where I think all great wisdom is dispensed, Andrew Tate provides a script for how to be a real man. You know, if you scroll through Instagram, you'll see trad wives kind of hunting for a protective, providing man while they're milking their cows or homesteading or whatever. And Tucker Carlson is warning of a men. I want to get this right. Menpocalypse. Menpocalypse. And what he calls, quote, the total collapse of testosterone in men. Now, interestingly, our fact checker right before this told me that testosterone levels are decreasing amongst age groups in men. But the statistics are more scary than that. I think academics like Richard Reeves point to how boys are falling behind. They're less likely to perform well in school, they're less likely to form lasting friendships, and they're four times more likely as men to commit suicide. So what's going on? You have heard a lot of debates about whether or not masculinity is toxic. Toxic. But this one is about masculinity in its essence. It's not about the toxicity. It's about whether or not it itself is a prison. Are men trapped by their maleness? Are they trapped by conceptions or social constructs around it? Or are they not trapped at all? I mean, at least some of you for an hour are not trapped tonight. So that's good. Let me introduce our debaters arguing that, yes, masculinity is a prison. I have Lux Alptram. Lux, come up here. Now, Lux is a writer and a sex educator, which sounds very exciting. She authors the book Faking the Lies Women Tell About Sex and the Truths those Reveal. Well, thank you for being here tonight, Lux.
- [07:12]
Lux Alptraum
Pleasure to be here.
- [07:14]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
And arguing that masculinity is not a prison is Mike Pascal. Mike is a longtime reporter, a journalist, and I want to check my notes. He's also a man, which I think is important for tonight. And he's one who has biceps and usually a quite tight T shirt to show them off on his hit podcast the Gist, which is an amazing daily news podcast. You got to check it out. Mike is a well known iconoclast. He's also a provocateur, I would say, and we're delighted to have him here tonight. Mike Join us.
- [07:42]
Mike Pesca
I should have worn the Ed Hardy.
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Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Oh, yes. I was. I was hoping for it. You came incognito. Can men be provocateurs? Is that a feminine term?
- [07:52]
Mike Pesca
Is that a provocatrix?
- [07:55]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Would be the. Oh, okay. Version. Oh, got it. Okay. Didn't know it was a derivative of dominatrix, but okay.
- [08:01]
Mike Pesca
Aviatrix. I was thinking look at where your mind goes.
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Moderator (Neymar Raza)
There you go. Okay, before we jump in, I just want to know what motivated you to show up here tonight? What made each of you think this is an important topic to talk about? I want to kind of just do a 30 second version of it. So, Mike, jump in.
- [08:17]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, I think that the discourse. Ding. When you say discourse on an open debate stage is not helpful to men, to women, to humankind. The discourse of looking at. I'll get into this in my remarks. As the immutable characteristics or the characteristics that people cannot change, characteristics that are defined upon them. It's not doing anyone any favors. So I'm here to try to change the discourse one comedy seller at a time.
- [08:49]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Excellent. Yes. Great. And, Lux, what brought you out here today?
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Lux Alptraum
I mean, I love talking about gender and the way that we are or are not imprisoned by gendered expectations. Also, always fun to talk to, Mike, so it was just an honor to be invited.
- [09:05]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Well, let the discourse begin. Guys, we start off open to debate with these opening arguments. You each have four minutes to make your case of why masculinity is or is not a prison. Lux, you're up first. And you're arguing that masculinity is a prison.
- [09:19]
Lux Alptraum
I am.
- [09:19]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Tell us why.
- [09:20]
Lux Alptraum
All right, I'm gonna try to stand.
- [09:25]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Oh, I don't know if I do that. Okay.
- [09:28]
Lux Alptraum
All right, so we're talking about masculinity, but I actually want to open by saying something brief about femininity. So I was born in 1982. My mother was born almost 40 years earlier than that, in 1943. As a result of that, we grew up with very, very different models of femininity and what a woman's role is, how a woman should dress, if a woman could do sports, all of that. I would go so far as to say that the femininity my mother grew up with was a prison. And that the femininity that was more normalized when I grew up was significantly more relaxed, significantly more open and expansive. Certainly in the 40s, in the 50s, I would not be able to. To have this look and say it was feminine. That has changed. I can consider myself feminine while dressing like this. And clearly the thing that changed between 1943 and 1982 was the feminist revolution, which really dramatically shifted how we understand femininity and women and all of that. And there have been attempts to, on the part of feminists, on the part of male feminists, on the part of a lot of people in that time period to shift the definition of masculinity, but it's been a lot less successful. And so when I say masculinity is a prison, I'm not saying femininity is great and masculinity is bad. I'm saying that any really strict gender role is fundamentally a prison, and that we've been able to loosen the strictures on femininity in a way we haven't with masculinity. And, you know, a lot of times when we talk about masculinity and harm, people really focus on the way that men hurt other people and specifically women. And so we'll talk about domestic violence, raids, sexual assault, all of that. And that is all very real and I think part of the problem. But I actually want to touch a little bit on how masculinity hurts men. There was about a week or two ago an article in the New York Times about men and healthcare and clinics that are being set up to try to get men more likely to go to the doctor, because this is a problem in this country. So one of the things that was mentioned in this piece is that when men have these really rigid definitions of masculinity, they're not only less likely to go to the doctor, but they're far more likely to engage in really dangerous risk taking behaviors. They're more likely to be the victims of violence, not just perpetrators, but victims of violence. They're more likely to have suicidal thoughts and even things that we might think of as these kind of positive aspects of masculinity, like being a caretaker, being a protector, being a breadwinner, all things that sound really positive. When men get too attached to that as their role, as their masculine identity, it can actually be harmful for them. Men take on jobs that are dangerous and damaging. They put work before themselves. They don't open up about their emotions because being vulnerable is not masculine. And all of this combines to result in a situation where men are dying earlier, men are less healthy, men are suffering themselves. And so to me, if your gender role is causing you to suffer and you feel like you can't break out of that, that is the definition of a prison. And we have managed to open the cage doors for women at Least a little bit. And I would love it if we could do that for men as well.
- [13:12]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
All right. Thank you, Lux. Oh, no. Everyone's going to stand up now. The sound guys are going to be sad about this. Mike, come on up. You have a few minutes to tell us why masculinity is not a precedent.
- [13:26]
Mike Pesca
Sure. And first of all, I'd like to echo the sentiments that you expressed in the beginning. I'm very proud to be engaged in civic discourse, in a settling of differences and ideas, with talking it out without violence. It seems stupid enough to say, but sometimes you have to say these things out loud to reify them. So that's first of all. So is masculinity a prison? One of the things that I'd least like to do is win this debate just on some semantics. But the thing I'd very much, absolutely least like to do is lose the debate. So we're going to talk about semantics a little bit. Masculinity is a construct. It is a sociological definition. And for many years, the people who have defined it in the academy have been of a certain ilk. And we'll get to them in a second. Maleness is just the very fact of being a man. And so often, I believe there is a conflation of the sociological category of the masculine with just pure maleness. And males as a species have 40 to 60 times as much testosterone as women. Women have testosterone, but men have it, too. Men as a species have evolved, and thank God for that, or else we wouldn't be here in the comedy cellar. They've evolved to have such traits as. As on the downside, aggression, on the upside, protection. And to use what testosterone exists for is to use all of these traits so that they can reproduce and have offspring. Again, thank God for that. So what happens is that sometimes we blame males for their maleness. And this makes about as much sense as blaming a male deer for. For engaging in rutting rituals, for displaying antlers and getting into fights to protect the herd and to make himself seem bigger in front of the female. Testosterone is not destiny. And thank God that we. And thank God that we have in our society today, found many ways around it. But, you know, it's still there. And it's not all a bad thing. And this is the reason why all boys play rough. Almost all boys play rough and tumble. And this is the reason why initiation rituals among men are universal throughout all cultures. And from a boy to a man is often a thing that involves risk and daring and a little bit of violence. The way our current society is constituted. This makes us uncomfortable. You know, we sometimes legislate out the rough and tumble play. And this isn't doing boys a favor. That's the masculine part of it. But what about the prison part of it? As far as I can tell, there have never been more ways to be a man than there are right now. A prison. The characteristics of a prison are things like confinement and regimentation and an inability to grow or change. But look at all the changes that men have gone through and that men have embraced. Sexuality is one look at the definitions of fatherhood. Fathering tasks have increased. The number of hours have increased by 250% since 1965. Now, it still doesn't touch the number of mothering hours put in. But if you look at surveys, men more than ever talk about wanting to be a father and wanting to be a father in ways their fathers weren't, and wanting to be not just the breadwinner, but often the bread maker. This comes with downsides. All the annoying friends I have who talk about their sourdough starter for one. But there are more ways to be a man in business. There are more ways to be a man with partners. Another statistic I came across is in asking or seeking out mental health. Since 2002, the number or percentage of men have doubled. It's only to 17%. But this shows a greater embrace of vulnerability than there ever has been before.
- [17:40]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Running out of time, Mike.
- [17:41]
Mike Pesca
Oh, I didn't know that it was that strange.
- [17:43]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Yeah, I know.
- [17:43]
Mike Pesca
I said those things to butter up the crowd about civics in the beginning. All right, we'll get to more of it.
- [17:49]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
All right. Should we. Do you guys want to stand up for the whole thing? Are we going to be in trouble.
- [17:52]
Mike Pesca
If we do that?
- [17:53]
Lux Alptraum
Okay, I. I think it was more standing up for just the statements, the assertion, the discussion. I think we can be sitting down.
- [18:01]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Okay, great. I just wanted to check what people are comfortable with. All right, really quickly, before we launch into the debate, I want to just recount what people heard, especially for the audience listening to this at home later. So, Lux, you talked about masculinity first by comparing it to femininity. Really kind of describing the evolutionary. The change in the evolution of the meaning of femininity over time and feminism as a huge force for changing how women are seen. And your life being different to your mom's. You also talked about the construct around masculinity right now as being more similar to what your mom faced 40 years ago than what you're facing today and how that harms men, particularly when it comes to things like even seeking out medical care. And they are not doing these things now. Mike, you got into semantics because you didn't want to lose, but you got into semantics to distinguish, really, between masculinity, which you agree is a construct or think is a construct, and you want to distinguish that from maleness, which is the biology of maleness, and the testosterone that Tucker Carlson thinks is declining, but you say is still there and is definitely there more than it's present in women. And you talked about that, explaining a lot of what it means to be a man, but also that there's a lot of diversity in the population of men today. There are a lot of ways to be. Be a man. You can be a gay man. You can be a present dad man. You could be all kinds of men today. So that's where you guys started off. I think you have a kind of normative agreement that the construct of masculinity is harmful in different ways.
- [19:30]
Mike Pesca
Well, no. I mean, the sociologists have to identify this. It's not just the very facts of one of the genders has this set of gonads and testosterone in greater degree. It's how it actually operates in the world. So how you define it, you could define it harshly. You could define it just the set of norms and expectations of a man in a society. That would be masculinity.
- [19:53]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Yeah, okay, but the way that we're describing. But you have an empirical difference. You have empirical difference about what it means to be a man. You are defining it in some way in this terms of this construct.
- [20:03]
Lux Alptraum
Yeah, I mean, I would say that the manhood and masculinity that Micah's talking about sounds great, and I wish we saw more of it. I am arguing, I think that part of the problem is we aren't seeing as much like evolved masculinity. And the people who are the loudest about masculinity tend to be the people who are pushing the more restrictive version. You know, I think we think about Donald Trump seems to be someone who is very concerned with masculinity, and it doesn't seem to be making him happy. It seems like he's just constantly trying to find his next victim and the next person who he can push down, and it's trapping him in this cycle where he's never gonna win.
- [20:46]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
What do you make of that, Micah? This idea that the loudest voices in the room are defining masculinity? And isn't that masculinity today?
- [20:52]
Mike Pesca
Masculinity is a bad brand. It's been defined by sociologists mostly as a negative thing. I mean, bell hooks has definitions of it, of it's the mechanism that withholds the patriarchy. The most cited scholar on this, R.W. connell, describes it as the hegemony that allows for the oppression of others in society. So the academy has never defined masculinity as anything other than the pejorative. You know, they look at masculinity maybe in the best way, like a vegan would look at a cheeseburger, right? It might be wagyu beef, it might be cheddar, but it ain't good, right?
- [21:29]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
What is masculinity if it's not a prison? And you're like, take the metaphors. Is it the rolling green hills at the end of a Pfizer act?
- [21:35]
Mike Pesca
I'll tell you what it is. I think to defer. I think to defer to Andrew Tate or Donald Trump. It's like saying, you know, the tiger king's a cat owner, so cat owners are like that guy, right? It's the cartoon version. And the cartoon version of masculinity isn't the typical version that men are living today. Look at the stats that I talked about. Look at the growth in the ways to be a man that I talked about. It's really changing.
- [22:01]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Lex, are you arguing a cartoon version or would you like to defend yourself?
- [22:05]
Lux Alptraum
I would again say this. I also have these stats about men not going to the doctor, men being more likely to die in violent accidents, men being more likely to be the victims of violence. Like, I think. I think there are absolutely men who adopt a more expansive. A more expansive definition of masculinity. But I think even in those circles, I mean, we all know that men are under. Men are under a pressure that I don't think women are under. Like, women are not told to, like, woman up. Women are not told. We have to prove our womanhood in a way that our culture often does require men to do. Men are. Men are shamed for not being, quote, unquote, masculine enough in a way that women are often not.
- [22:56]
Mike Pesca
And we'll be back in a minute with more. The conclusion of the debate on masculinity being a prison. All right, this is the last part of the open to debate debate between Mike Pesca. Pesca and Lux Albtraum Alpum. And we were debating his masculinity a prison. Here we go.
- [23:27]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
All right, I want to take a moment now to open up the conversation to people in the audience, do you have questions? Please stand up and. Hi. Oh, wow. This very eager question right here. So I think you should go first. There's a microphone behind you. A gentleman named Eric. All right. Hi.
- [23:42]
Mike Pesca
You mentioned there were aspects of your personality that were masculine. I was wondering if you'd be open to sharing what those are and how they imprison you. Yeah, it's that I really like to. Oh, sorry.
- [23:54]
Lux Alptraum
So I want to say I did not inherently say that anything masculine imprisons people. I think that masculinity can be very positive. I also think that the way masculinity is understood and the way that men experience masculinity is often putting men in a prison. So, again, I'm not saying, like, there's no good masculinity. I am saying that the way our culture talks about and teaches men to understand their own relationship to masculinity, that's the prison. In terms of what's masculine about me, I mean, I did do roller derby. That's a pretty violent sport. I'm extremely competitive.
- [24:34]
Mike Pesca
What was your name? What was your roller derby?
- [24:35]
Lux Alptraum
Joey Hardcore. I was on the Queens of Pain. But just generally, you know, there will be these. It's interesting to me because I think of my. I grew up with an expansive understanding of what women. Of what gender roles could be. And so I don't think of myself as like, oh, I'm a man in a woman's body. But, you know, you'll take these writing tests and they'll be like, you have a masculine writing style. And so I'm like, okay, I guess I'm a masculine woman, but I don't see myself that way. But that's the message I'm getting.
- [25:08]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
All right, thank you. We're gonna have a next question. Please come up if you want a question. If you have a question, please stand up and just get in the queue.
- [25:16]
Mike Pesca
So this is to Mike. This is the counterpart of the question, when were you last feminine? And specifically, when. What was it that made you last cry? Because it's perfectly normal. When was it?
- [25:27]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Great question.
- [25:27]
Mike Pesca
All right, so I cry at the most stereotypical masculine stuff, Father son stuff, especially the last scene in the Natural. But when was I last feminine? I mean, you know, there's no real masculine feminine. There's no binary. I don't believe in that. But it's. But it's the musicals. I love the musicals.
- [25:52]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
The musicals. Excellent. All right, next up, what's your question?
- [25:58]
Lux Alptraum
Hello. Hello. Hi.
- [25:59]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Thank you guys so much for this amazing conversation.
- [26:03]
Lux Alptraum
I think what would be really helpful.
- [26:05]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
For me is a work, a definition of what you believe masculinity is so that we can really engage with whether it is a prison or not. I feel like I haven't gotten that.
- [26:19]
Lux Alptraum
From the debate yet.
- [26:20]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
So maybe for both of you, if you could offer what you believe the definition of masculinity is, that way I can kind of get a better gauge of how the debate is structured and what the crux of it is. I think you gave some elements of that in your opening arguments, but do you want to just repeat that?
- [26:38]
Mike Pesca
I think it would be best if we just thought of it as the way men operate in the world. This is. It would be defined by the actual actions, attitudes of men, and it would be revealed by their actual acts, not what we think their acts should be or what other people define their acts as.
- [26:58]
Lux Alptraum
So I would say masculinity is pretty culturally specific, but we're in America, so I've been operating on a pretty American definition of masculinity. And, you know, I think it is concerned with being focused on dominate, on dominating, on being a provider, on not speaking about your emotions, on appreciating and engaging in physical violence. I think these are things that we tend to define as masculine in our culture. In a lot of ways, masculinity in America is defined in opposition to anything that is considered, quote, unquote, womanly. So being sensitive, crying, being open about your emotions, being willing to talk about your problems with friends, being interested in aesthetics, like, these are all things that oftentimes at some point, men, if they're engaged in or interested in, might be told like, oh, you're like, not being a real man. I mean, I. I don't think that is universally what masculinity is. You know, we look at photos from a variety of cultures where men are in high heels or wearing skirts or all of that. And that's in keeping with their culture's definition of masculinity.
- [28:18]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
I think it's even interesting how you guys answered it, which is where you guys started as well, which is you have this idea of masculinity you talk about as an idea and a set of actions, but you see it as qualities and traits, which Mike really defined as maleness, not masculinity. So comes back to semantics. They were a little convoluted in this one, but come on up with your next question.
- [28:37]
Mike Pesca
Hi. So I'd like to ask a question about gender performing procedures or practices. Sorry, Gender affirming. The recent film the Materialist from the filmmaker Celine Song had a major plot point where a shorter man received a procedure where his legs were both broken in order to reach above 6ft, citing the statistic that men over 6ft are considered more sexually desirable. There is a multi million dollar industry booming in Turkey performing hair transplants, just so you know. And I think Elon Musk is the biggest evidence of this these days. So if we do take the argument that masculinity is a prison, why are so many men still wanting to put on the jumpsuits? All right, can I ask you, how tall are you? I am five, eleven and a half. Thank you very much. Would you like to see my driver's license?
- [29:23]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
So first, for whoever asked that question about what masculinity is, we have some live performance. No, I'm kidding. The context. So Pedro Pascal in that film does have a height lift. I forget what that's called. But a procedure to increase himself. What do you think of the idea here? I don't love necessarily how the question was asked, but what do you think of the idea of gender affirming? Does that solidify the idea that masculinity is a construct or that there is something.
- [29:51]
Mike Pesca
I think for millennia, men of many heights have attracted women. And I think what's going on now is to get back to an earlier debate, it's probably a Tinder online dating function where as you can rule out people who are under six feet. So this incentivizes men to maybe lie or think that it's so important, or if they don't lie, they don't get swiped on. But in real life, you can't tell if you're five' five. You can't tell who's five' eleven and three quarters even if you don't look at their driver's license.
- [30:27]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
I just want to cite a factual reality here, which is Zendaya and Tom Holland and the short King spring, summer, fall that we're in these days. But let's have our next question, please.
- [30:38]
Lux Alptraum
Hi, this is my mom, by the way.
- [30:40]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Oh, my God. Sorry, but you're gonna be biased. Yes, but you forgot to say how I broke through my cultural training as an old lady for my life.
- [30:56]
Lux Alptraum
Well, that's why I was raised the way I was.
- [30:58]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
That's not my question. No, what concerns me is the mixed messages that young boys still get. One day ago, our esteemed president announced that if you look at the crime statistics in Washington, you have to leave out the domestic violence ones because they don't count as crimes. It's just a little fight at home. And that message is still coming through, that kind of message that violence against women, as long as it's in the home is just fine. I want to let Mike respond to it. I think you actually spoke a little bit about kind of criminality versus not so.
- [31:33]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. I would just say if you have to go by what that guy says, whoever's taking that side of the debate is probably going to lose, especially in this crowd. Or if you're going by actual facts. Yeah. I would just throw out what Donald Trump is saying in that.
- [31:45]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
In that instance, Donald Trump not being an effective advocate for.
- [31:50]
Mike Pesca
He's not being accurate.
- [31:51]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Accurate.
- [31:52]
Lux Alptraum
But there are. I mean there are people who hold him up as a masculine ideal, but.
- [31:58]
Mike Pesca
There are people who hold up Caroline Levitt and all the kind of very stamped out blondes who people his administration as the opposite. I mean, you know, when you get a cult of personality, it's sometimes warps perceptions. I would say.
- [32:11]
Lux Alptraum
I do want to actually go back to the bone to your mom's question. No, not. Well, I mean, I agree with my mom. No, the bone lengthening. I think what's interesting to me there is. I think a lot of that is coming not we see in the sort of like red pill in cell spaces, a lot of messaging about men needing to look a certain way, men needing jaw surgery, men needing this, men need men needing that. And to me, that is the corollary of this kind of quote unquote toxic femininity where women get told, oh, you need to have this kind of surgery. Oh, you, you can't age. Oh, you can't. Oh, you need bigger boobs. Oh, you need this. Like, what's been interesting to me to see over one of the really negative things I think in how men understand masculinity and presentation is we've seen a more and more restrictive idea of like what attractive masculinity is. Like things that are like, like Jason Momoa's dad bod used to be like a very.
- [33:12]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Does that mean femininity is also a prison to some extent? I think we can talk about that.
- [33:16]
Lux Alptraum
I think it can be.
- [33:17]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
And you. Okay, interesting. Which.
- [33:19]
Lux Alptraum
Yes. Like from the opening, I think femininity absolutely can be a prison.
- [33:23]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
The revolution has not killed all parts. It's not complete. No.
- [33:26]
Mike Pesca
Then how is that just different from saying human beings have pressures upon them?
- [33:31]
Lux Alptraum
I mean. Yeah. I mean, I'm saying any strictly enforced gender role is gonna be a prison. Anytime you are told that in order to be a man, in order to be a woman, you have to, you have to obey this very strict rule. That's a prison, I should say. Actually, by the way, it was mentioned that I wrote a book. Part of the thesis of my book is that one of the reasons women lie about sex is because, especially in that realm, we can be given this very narrow idea of what being a woman is, what women's sexual experience is. And you often have to, if that's not you, you won't be believed and therefore people will lie.
- [34:09]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
I want to go on to the next question, so please come on up.
- [34:13]
Mike Pesca
So imagine the debate is over and we're now in nuance land and you're talking to a 10 year old boy. So for both sides of the debate, where would you actually draw the line opposing to your argument? So on the one hand, where would you say it's okay to lean into some of what Mike called maleness? And Mike to you, where would you actually admit that it's not just cartoons and that Andrew Tate has a lot of followers, for example, you know, violence. Is it okay to push someone but not okay to kick them? Is it okay to kick them but not so much that they bleed? Where is the nuance in this conversation? And how would you describe it to a 10 year old boy if you were not trying to win the debate? Right, So I have described this to 10 year old boys and violence is never the answer. Even if boys have an inherent aggression within them. You know, there's a difference between violence and aggression. And there is a difference between trying to inflict pain on someone and engaging in a sport, which is an excellent sublimation for the male instinct. So, you know, I would definitely. My kids went to a school where there was a huge anti bullying curriculum and it was fantastic. You know, and that's to me another example of the progress that we're making. I think these curricula are pretty prevalent in a lot of schools. And the stronger, here's another masculine or manly ideal, the stronger preying upon the weak, men upon women, or men upon weaker men is never okay. And that's what I have told my kids.
- [35:54]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Dominance, not okay.
- [35:55]
Lux Alptraum
So I have an 11 year old nephew and a 7 year old niece. And I think what is interesting to me as I've seen them grow up is the way like certain things that our kind of stereotypical gender traits might pop up in their behavior and we can say, is it this kid or is it femaleness? Is it maleness? And for me, I think rather than teaching kids the conversations I have with these kids is not about like, oh, you're like this way because you're a girl, you're like this way because you're a boy, but you're like this way because you're you. And just kind of allowing this individualism and meeting kids with where they are. Because even if we can say the majority of men are this way, the majority of women are this way, kids are this and that, there's always going to be outliers. And so I would never want the boy who is not going to roughhouse or the girl who is gonna roughhouse to feel like they are somehow wrong.
- [36:50]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Thank you. We do have time for one more question. If someone else was in the queue. Thank you.
- [36:55]
Mike Pesca
Thank you. How do you think the effect of the decline, decline of two parent households has affected this whole dynamic? Do you know that in the last few years two parent households have actually increased by a few percentage? I don't know. I don't know exactly. I think it's mostly a very acute problem in the African American community where 2/3 of black kids born to a one parent household. There's also some good scholarship. She's coming on. One of the authors is coming on the gist of talk about how black kids are more resilient than white kids in a one parent family. But I actually look at it more along the racial dynamic than the gender dynamic. But I haven't looked at it that much on the gender dynamic.
- [37:37]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
I want to end really quickly before we get to closing arguments, which we're going to get to in one moment. What is the most, in 15 seconds or less, most persuasive thing you heard from your opponent tonight?
- [37:48]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, I think it was the feminist revolution point. That's a great thing to think about.
- [37:52]
Lux Alptraum
I mean, I think Mike's point to the ways that masculinity has expanded and to some of the ways that being a sensitive man or a quote unquote, more feminine man are more acceptable than they would have been a few decades ago.
- [38:07]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Excellent. All right, with that, we're going to get to our closing arguments. Lux, you're going to be up first. You're going to leave us with something to think about when it comes to masculinity is a prison.
- [38:17]
Lux Alptraum
So jumping off what I just said about Mike's most compelling point. There have also been studies that show that when. That when men perform stereotypically feminine behaviors, they often feel the need to compensate or they become more aggressive or they feel this need to then prove their masculinity, which I think we do often see in, like, anytime a video of, like, a man braiding his daughter's hair goes viral, you often get comments about how he's not a man. And there is this, oh, well, but don't you see how buff I am? And this, that, and the other thing. There's not an ability to just be like, well, this is what I do. There is this overcompensation that follows and a term that, you know, we call sometimes fragile masculinity procrastinates. Masculinity. That's basically what I'm talking about with that. That. This idea that masculinity needs to be proven, that even as a man can do more feminine things, there's a need to overcompensate and prove that, quote, unquote, he is still a man, even as he is a man embracing his femininity. And one of the things that has been found is that in countries, because, again, this is cultural. Different countries have different, different ideas of masculinity. The ones that have more strict rules about America. I'm sorry, more strict rules about masculinity, which does include America. It tends to be more strict and more rigid about our ideas of masculinity than some other countries. In those countries like ours, we find that men have a shorter lifespan than in countries where masculinity is not as precarious, is not as rigidly defined, is not something that men need to jealously defend and prove that they are meeting the standard of. And we can talk. I think it is possible that societies that have more evolved ideas about gender also have better social safety nets, also have better health care systems, also have other things that are perhaps going to contribute to that extended lifespan. Thank you.
- [40:34]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Have one sentence to close out?
- [40:36]
Lux Alptraum
No, but I think, you know, again, we see again, the more that masculinity is rigidly defined, the more the men are suffering.
- [40:44]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Thank you, Lux. All right, Mike, you're gonna have the last word in this debate, you couple of minutes to give us your closing argument.
- [40:54]
Mike Pesca
Okay. I have friends. I don't know if you've heard this, but there's supposedly a friendship crisis. Not this guy. So if you have friends, you invite them to your open to debate at the Comedy Cellar show, and then they turn you down. But I just want to read some of the texts and emails I got from my friends. Why they can't come. Matt writes, I'm taking Ellen to see the Indigo Girls. Isaac writes, more, man, I'd love to go. I have first week of my wife's new Job and my kid in daycare coming up. But tell me how things shake out. And Stan writes, I'm helping Clarissa build her. She shed tastefully decorated with the heroes of the Seneca Falls convention. All right, I made that last one up. But the point is this does show the broad panoply of the male experience. And if I want to leave you with one thought, it's not all the points, all the statistics. There are a couple of great ones that I left out. Like med med graduates, 55% women. Law school graduates since 2016, 56% women. Now the patriarchy is crumbling. Masculinity, I don't know if it's a prison, but women certainly are gaining. The wardens or the imprisoners are not doing their job. But if there's one thought that I want to leave you with, it's what I said earlier. An echo of that. Thinking about the phrases and the concepts. Because when we have these concepts, they affect how we construe the world of toxic masculinity. I take your point. You're not arguing that of thinking of masculinity as a prison because these are non action items. When you tell a young boy that he's imprisoned or that his masculinity is toxic, there is nothing for that young boy to do. And so if you can get out of the, oh, shall we call it the prison of thinking of the man, the boy, the masculine in this way, in this pejorative way for which there is no hope, for which there is no progress. I think it would serve all of us as a society better. Thank you.
- [43:00]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Thank you. Mike was his second friend. Isaac. Isaac.
- [43:06]
Mike Pesca
Isaac.
- [43:07]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Yeah, yeah. I don't think he wants to come. His wife's job starts next week. I feel like that is just like a rejection, like, okay, it's like I'm.
- [43:16]
Mike Pesca
Going to find a woman to marry.
- [43:18]
Lux Alptraum
And it is possible.
- [43:19]
Moderator (Neymar Raza)
Exactly. I think he just didn't want to come support you self declared friendships. All right, thank you everyone for being here tonight. I'd like to give a big thank you to our debaters lot and Mike for being here tonight. Thank you so much. I'd like to give a big thank you to the comedy seller for hosting us here and I'd like to thank you, all of you in the audience for coming up here tonight and really I want to thank the two of you for being really open to debate and we talked about nuance here. I learned a lot listening to you. I appreciate the energy that you guys brought to the table and that is What Open to Debate always does. Thank you to our host, Open to Debate for having us here tonight. Thanks everyone.
- [44:08]
Mike Pesca
And that's it for today's show. Cory Warra produces the Gist. Ashley Kahn is our production coordinator. Jeff Craig runs our social media. Kathleen Sykes writes the Gist List with me today on the Just List. Well, on Wednesdays we run a long piece. I call it the Pesca Profundities piece. And I'm running a piece that originally ran in the Free Press, a peace of mind that I've been working on for a long, long time. And audio version of this will be coming down the pike. Text 33777 the word Mike. Text the word Mike. Get 25% off just list and substack subscriptions. All right, thanks to everyone who made this possible, but especially Michelle Pesca who helps me camera angles and cap placement. And thanks for listening. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.