Is That BS: Compostable Dog Poop Bags

Summary

---

The Gist – "Is That BS: Compostable Dog Poop Bags"

Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Sadie Dingfelder, Author of Do I Know You?
Date: February 11, 2026
Episode Focus: Are "compostable" dog poop bags and recycled toilet paper really good for the environment, or just greenwashing BS?

---

Episode Overview

Mike Pesca takes on the popular belief that compostable dog poop bags are environmentally friendly, spurred by a listener’s question about potential hypocrisy in “green” pet products. Partnering with science writer Sadie Dingfelder, the episode unpacks what “compostable” really means, whether these products make any meaningful difference, and how consumers can tell sustainable claims from BS.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Do Compostable Dog Poop Bags Actually Compost?

• Listener Question (09:13): Josh from Atlanta asks whether buying compostable bags or recycled toilet paper really helps the planet, especially since it’s believed dog (and human) feces aren’t truly compostable.

• Sadie’s Short Answer:

  “Most composting centers won’t accept dog poop or human poop, but it definitely composts and it makes nice rich soil.” – Sadie Dingfelder (11:31)

  • Manure is routinely used for composting, but concerns about pathogens make dog/human poop a no-go for mainstream compost centers.
  • Compostable poop bags, while seemingly green, still end up in landfills.
  • These bags only break down in industrial-grade composting centers — not in typical landfill or home compost contexts.

• Compostable Bag Reality Check:

  “The compostable bags are always going into landfills and they are never decomposing because they don’t...they don’t really compost in composting piles. They require industrial compost centers.” – Sadie Dingfelder (12:09)

2. What Actually Happens at Composting Facilities?

• Industrial Composting Explained (13:16):

  • Compost is “ground up into a slurry” (think: “oatmeal consistency”), heated to 130–160°F, folded with wood chips, and then supplied to community gardens.

  “They just grind it up into a slurry...fold it into wood chips...and make sure the mounds heat up to 130 to 160 degrees.” – Sadie Dingfelder (13:19)

• Home Compost Piles (13:54):

  • Home composting is slow, passive, lacks the heat/churn of industrial methods, and most “compostable” bags won’t break down here at all.

  “It definitely wouldn’t turn to dirt...There’s no way. They’d just be the bag.” – Mike Pesca (14:42)

3. Is the “Compostable” Label Regulated?

• Labeling Loopholes (12:33):

  • A few agencies certify bags as “industrially compostable,” but even these are impractical for regular consumers — especially if the bag’s holding poop.

  “If there’s poop in it, you would have to peel the bag off the poop, rinse it off, and then drop it off at your local industrial composting facility.” – Sadie Dingfelder (12:44)

4. Toilet Paper: Recycled vs. Virgin Pulp

• Environmental Impact (16:15):

  • Americans use more toilet paper per capita than anywhere else — about “half a tree cut down every year” per person unless using recycled TP.
  • Old recycled toilet paper was rough, but new versions are much improved.

  “It’s really a major cause of deforestation...I stopped using the compostable doggy poo bags. And I started, I subscribed to ‘Who Gives a Crap’ toilet paper.” – Sadie Dingfelder (16:31)

  “The new ones [recycled TP] are much better, they say, but not quite as good as your premium, like Charmin, in terms of their softness. But where they’re much better, of course, is the environment, because you’re not cutting down the boreal forest of Canada.” – Sadie Dingfelder (17:15)

  • The benefit comes from sourcing (using recycled content), not from what happens after flushing.

  “It seems like you’re saying, though, all the savings with the toilet paper is not on the...back end...It’s not what happens to the toilet paper after use. It’s sourcing the toilet paper. That’s the entire environmental benefit.” – Mike Pesca (17:47)

5. Dog Waste in America: The Scale of the Problem

• Dog Poop Statistics (18:32):
  • American dogs' annual poop output could cover 1,000 football fields with a foot of waste.
  • The popularity of dogs and dog waste bags means the environmental stakes are significant.

6. Real Solutions: What’s a Conscientious Pet Owner To Do?

• What Actually Helps (19:13):

  • Consider lobbying for dog waste collection and composting infrastructure (exists in Nantucket, MA, and Brattleboro, VT).
  • Recycled plastic bags are better than “compostable” ones.

  “You can lobby your government, your local government to create a dog waste collection, which has actually been done in two places: Nantucket, Massachusetts and Brattleboro, Vermont.” – Sadie Dingfelder (19:26)

  • Local rules differ: Nantucket requires unbagged poop; Brattleboro wants compostable bags only.

7. Final Verdict: Are These Products BS?

• Compostable Poop Bags:

  “They are so bullshit. I think they’re the most bullshit thing we’ve hit.” – Sadie Dingfelder (20:21)

• Recycled Toilet Paper:

  “That’s not bullshit. We should probably all use it.” – Sadie Dingfelder (20:36)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Virtue Signaling Bags:

  “I do wonder. I mean, I know there is a...a lot of virtue signaling, but it just seems also so illogical.” – Mike Pesca (14:42)

• On U.S. Toilet Paper Habits:

  “Probably eat more, expel more. That probably has something to do with it.” – Mike Pesca (15:59) “And we, we use more toilet paper than anyone else. And each one of us, the average person is responsible for about half of a tree cut down every year.” – Sadie Dingfelder (16:02)

• On Pet Waste Output:

  “The amount of dog poop produced in the United States every year—1,000 football fields covered in about a foot of poop.” – Sadie Dingfelder (18:41)

• On U.S. Bathroom Culture:

  “Is there any indication that one of the reasons we use so much toilet paper is we wipe too much...?”
  “I think it’s the lack of bidets too.” – Sadie Dingfelder (19:02-19:04)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [09:13] Listener question sets up the compostable dog bag debate
• [10:38] Sadie Dingfelder joins and explains the compostability myth
• [11:31] Dog poop can make good compost but isn’t accepted
• [12:09] Why compostable bags don’t really decompose in practice
• [13:16] How city composting actually works
• [16:02] Toilet paper’s impact on forests
• [17:15] New recycled TP is better than the old
• [18:41] Scale of American dog poop problem
• [19:26] Realistic actions for pet owners
• [20:21] Final call: “So bullshit”

---

Tone & Takeaways

Pesca and Dingfelder keep the tone smart and slightly irreverent, peppered with wordplay and quick asides (e.g., “hope for the best” stump wipes, limerick attempts, puns on the “back end”). The core message: “compostable” dog poop bags, as currently used, are green theater, not a real environmental fix; recycled toilet paper really is a win.

---

Actionable Advice

• Skip "compostable" poop bags: If your city doesn’t collect dog poop for industrial composting, these bags do not actually help.
• Switch to recycled toilet paper: Real environmental payoff here, thanks to reduced deforestation.
• Lobby for municipal pet waste composting: Only a couple places do this, but it’s the only way the compostable bag logic works.

---

Episode Verdict

• Compostable dog poop bags: B.S.
• Recycled toilet paper: Not B.S.—it's a genuine environmental improvement.

---

For listeners who haven’t heard the full episode: The Gist’s lively, data-driven, and skeptical approach debunks some eco-friendly myths and clarifies where your consumer choices really can make a difference.

Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

The Gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Hey, you got a parenting question? Who doesn't? I guess non parents. But I've got an expert for you if you've got a parenting question or maybe you're interested in exploring therapeutic psychedelics or you want to quit drinking but AA hasn't worked or you're looking to enter a competitive eating contest. Do you have a question? I've got an expert. I'm not the expert, but I've got an expert. There is a special project, but I need your questions because I've got an expert. Email us at the gist@mike pesca.com maybe you want to know how to master AI prompts. Who does? Maybe you want to become a private detective. I've got an expert. And I've got an expert. Experts for all. Email us at the gist@mike pesca.com hit us up with. Here's a great one. How to make a perfect apology. Or do you have like seven or eight brothers and sisters and they're not getting along? I've got an expert. The gist@mike pesca.com I'm going to pair you with the experts, answer your questions and you're all going to find out why very soon. It's Wednesday, February 11, 2026 from Peach Fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. You know the old line used to be you can indict a ham sandwich. And then something changed. Ham got a lot more complex. You thought I was going to talk about the indictment. I swerved. I'm talking about the ham. But the ham sandwich used to be a stand in for an inner totally unspecial thing. But man, has ham gotten special. There used to be a place near me called Ham and Sons which, which you really think too much about it. Am I eating the dad? But anyway, it was all this crazy, very delicious, very detailed kind of ham. Adam Benton has collaborated with Whole City Hogs on a ham creation. So my point is that you maybe used to be able to indict a ham sandwich years ago when both of those things were simple tasks. But now I will talk about indictments because federal prosecutors in Washington were denied one, which used to be a very, very easy thing to get. But it's getting harder and harder. And it might not be the difficulty of the ham, it might be the implausibility of the indictment. So Jeanine Pirro went out and hired a former prosecutor from when she was the Westchester DA to bring indictments against six federal legislators, the people who said don't give up the ship. Prosecutors who were said to have violated a statute that doesn't allow with interfering morale or discipline of the US Armed forces a stretch. And in fact such a stretch stretch further than any single slice of Capicola could withstand that the grand jury just rejected the charges. And as magistrates first rejected charges brought against Don Lemon as eventually not a grand jury, but a judge threw out charges against James Comey. And that was after prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia could not get indictments. The Trump Justice Department is setting records on not getting indictments. I could not get indictments at the rate they're not getting indictments. Stephen Vander Velden, who, who was the prosecutor in this case who didn't get an indictment, was revealed by Bloomberg Law to be a dance photographer. And the headline was Dance Photographer, Lawyer doesn't get an indictment. I've seen his photography. It's good. He also has a history of being a good local prosecutor. It doesn't directly translate to federal law, but some of the moves are the same. I think the independent variable in this was not photography that Mr. Vander Velden engaged in, was not the activism of local jurors or grand jurors, as some argued in the wake of the non indictment is not even the complexity of the ham, if I'm being honest, is the absolute dearth of evidence that matches the statute of undermining morale in the military. And I have to wonder how often or how many of these strikeouts or these flame outs or these embarrassments and they're not embarrassing to Trump who cannot feel shame. But how many of them have to go down before the tactic starts blowing up in his face or is abandoned? The theory is just bringing indictments and harassing people and bringing them in front of federal grand juries is punishment enough. But I don't know if you're over 1 or 0 for 2 or 0, 3 or 4, a lot of the high profile would be indictments. I think not only does the tactic have less heft and potency, I think it starts to rebound on you or to repeat on you as if you just got a hold of a bad hawk of ham. On the show today, I will talk about bad congressional hearings and worst congressional witnesses. But first, you ever See those people following after the dogs and picking up after the dogs. And the bags are green now. Every dog poop bag has to be green but the green connotes this is recyclable. This is compostable. Well, a listener wrote in and say is that really true? And I wondered along with listener Josh, is that really true? Our voices went high when we both wondered and whenever I wonder is that really true? What I'm really saying in a more reason tone is is that bullshit? And we have someone to come by and make that adjudication. Sadie Dingfelder is here to play is that bullshit? Compostable dog poop bags and also toilet paper Sadie Dingfelder up next, The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Odoo Advertiser]

Imagine you're a business owner relying on a dozen different software programs. Each one is expensive, overly complicated and worst of all, none of them are connected. It can be incredibly stressful right now. Picture Odoo CRM Accounting, Inventory, Manufacturing, Marketing, HR and more. Odoo brings all the tools your business needs into one simple platform and all seamlessly connected. Everything works together, giving you the peace of mind that your business is running smoothly from every angle. Odoo's open source applications are user friendly and designed to scale with your business, saving you time and money. Say goodbye to juggling multiple platforms and hello to efficient integrated management. Stop wasting resources on complicated systems and make the switch to odoo today. Visit odoo.com o d o o.com and discover how Odoo can simplify and streamline your business operations. Odoo Modern Management Made simple.

[Mike Pesca]

So we get letters from time to time and this was a good one from Joshua Reader listener Joshua from the Atlanta area Poop Bags Mike I'm really interested in whether there's any hypocrisy around green stuff with regard to shit. His words, not mine. I get my dog poop bags from the city park and they're just plastic, but my mom and other conscientious pet owners get compostable bags. It was my understanding that pet feces is not compostable as opposed to undomesticated animals. I think all feces is not compostable so why spend the extra money on these fancy bags? To that end, my mother gets a toilet paper Subscription from who Gives a Crap. And now I feel bad for buying Costco toilet paper. Some conversation, maybe npr, maybe not. Throwing NPR into the bus that I heard over Christmas led me to believe that actually buying recycled toilet paper can be good for the environment slash society. But I don't know who to trust. So I come to you, and I come to Sadie Dingfelder. She is the author, of course, of Do I know You? A Face Blind Reporter's Journey into the Science of Sight, Memory and Imagination. And she's right here next to me as we play Is that Bullshit Compostable Poop. How are you, Sadie?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I'm doing great. How are you?

[Mike Pesca]

You're the shit. We're going to talk about the shit. You could use any words you like. Growing up, what was your, what was your household word for caca, feces, etc.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I think we used the numbering system, the numeral system.

[Mike Pesca]

Roman numerals.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Aye, aye, aye, aye aye. So we used. I believe. I don't want to tell tales out of school, we said duty for feces. But it was very important to my parents, as classy science based people, to call it not pp, but urine and urinate. So we would always say I have to urinate instead of pee pee. And that marked us as the weirdos of the neighborhood. Anyway, let's talk. Let's use Josh's question as a jumping off point. And let's just start with that assertion that I. Yes, anded feces being non compostable. Is that true?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, you know, it is true in that most composting centers won't accept dog poop or human poop, but it definitely composts and it makes nice rich soil.

[Mike Pesca]

So like, that's what manure is, right?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Exactly. Yeah. But people don't use it because they're worried about like pathogens and parasites.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so if you put feces, which a composting center won't accept, into a plastic bag, which they further won't accept, no problem. But if you put feces into a compostable bag, do you know if that changes the calculation either for the environment or for the recycling centers?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

No, the compostable bags are always going into landfills and they are never decomposing because they don't actually, they. They don't really compost in composting piles. They require industrial compost centers. So by themselves they will break down, but only in an industrial compost center that heats them up and churns the soil and aerates the soil, that kind of thing.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, so does Compostable have any agreed upon definition? Or is it like one of these words like organic? You could put it on any. And, you know, have any plausible justification for the word.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

You. There are a few certifying agencies for compose industrially compostable bags, but again, like, if. If. If there's poop in it, you would have to peel the bag off the poop, rinse it off, and then drop it off at your local industrial composting facility.

[Mike Pesca]

Could you take me if the answer is no, either because a lack of expertise or just disgust, but can you take me through how these industrial composting centers, what they do, like, the process of composting? I really don't know what that means. I like to just put it on the curb and forget about it forever.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I just watched a video about how New York does it.

[Mike Pesca]

All right.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I mean, it's basically they just grind it up into a slurry that has, like, an oatmeal consistency available.

[Mike Pesca]

A participating shake shack.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Then they sort of fold it into wood, like chips and things, and make giant mounds. And they make sure the mounds heat up to 130 to 160, 60 degrees. And then they scoop it up and give it or sell it to area community gardens.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say Area 51. Okay. And without the industrial composting facility, what does composting do or mean?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah. Well, you can do a regular compost pile, and you're just not like, churning it as much or grinding things up, really, I think is a big difference. And aerating it. And sometimes they actually, like, artificially heat it up. They aerate it, they churn it, turn it up. It's just a lot more intervention. A regular compost pile, like my compost, I just throw stuff in there, and it sits for a long time, and then I pull it out the bottom, and it's dirt.

[Mike Pesca]

We had a composting bin, but it was in the shade, and we had no other place to put it. And so obviously that didn't work. So we gave it to our neighbor. We could actually see it out this back window. We could look at our composting pile that's now in the sun, and it actually works. And it's interesting because if you had these compostable bags and you put them in your composting pile, like, it definitely wouldn't turn to dirt.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

There's no way that they just be the bag. So I do wonder. I mean, I know there is a. There is a lot of virtue signaling, but it just seems also so illogical. Not even for the feces. Don't compost, which they do, but just like if you have the bags, they're not going to break down. I don't know, maybe think they. People say, well, not in my home pile, but, you know, in nature, instead of a 200 year biodegradable path, maybe they're on a 30 year. I don't know what people say to themselves. It just doesn't seem logical.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I would be surprised if the quote unquote compostable bags in a landfill broke down any more than anything else. Yeah, honestly, because there's no oxygen in there.

[Mike Pesca]

What do you know about the other thing he said? The who gives a crap toilet paper. The who gives a crap line of toilet paper. Oh, the whiteboard. When they were coming up with that name.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah, they. Well, you know what's funny? There was. There's a who gives a shit compostable doggy bag company.

[Mike Pesca]

I bet they have like an asterisk for either the H or the I. You can't just say shit.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah, they probably do.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't be stocked in stores.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, it's just on Amazon, I think. But yeah. So it turns out that it's actually a much bigger toilet paper use. I mean, America, per capita, Americans use more toilet paper than anyone else.

[Mike Pesca]

Probably eat more, expel more. That probably has something to do with it.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

And we, we use more toilet paper than anyone else. And each one of us, the average person is responsible for about half of a tree cut down every year. If you don't use recycled toilet paper.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I like to cut out the middleman. I got a stump out back and I just use that for all my toilet paper needs. I just squat on the stump and hope for the best. And it's, you know, I don't know if it's compostable, but it makes me a hit among my neighbors, one of whom I gave my compost bin to. All right, is this a problem? All the toilet paper we use.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah, it's really a major cause of deforestation. And because of all the research, I stopped using the compostable doggy poo bags. And I started, I subscribed to who gives a who gives a crap toilet paper.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, okay.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So one. Ah, that's interesting. So Josh's mom and her virtue signaling one, totally irrelevant. But the other. So give me the case for how it's better for the environment than our Charmin or what is it? What's the bear? Oh, the bear Charman.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

What's the one who wraps himself now. Northern. Northern. Oh, yeah, the kid, the goalie who wraps himself in toilet paper.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, according to New York Times wirecutter, the. The old toilet, the old style recycled toilet paper was quite rough.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

But the new ones are.

[Mike Pesca]

But if you're trying to virtue signal, that's a way to really feel good about it.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

But the new ones are much better, they say, but not quite as good as your premium like Charman, in terms of their softness. But where they're much better, of course, is the environment, because you're not cutting down the borl forest of Canada, which is like one of the largest still existing, unbroken up forests.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

And you know, big forests, like, are great carbon sinks and they're beautiful animals live there, so makes sense not to cut them down.

[Mike Pesca]

It seems like you're saying, though, all of the savings with the toilet paper is not on the. And I swear, no pun intended, is not on the back end. I know. You know me and you're like, how could you not intend that pun? So to phrase it correctly, the saving, the environmental saving is not on the back end. It's not what happens to the toilet paper after use. It's sourcing the toilet paper. That's the entire environmental benefit.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah. It's using like newspapers or other paper first and then turning it into toilet paper.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay. So it's not even so much. Am I right about this? It's not. I don't even know if they market themselves as compostable or not compostable. It's just recycled toilet paper.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

It's just recycled toilet paper. Yeah. And similarly, if you want to use recycled plastic for your poo bags, that would be a positive thing to do.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

You know, I was so surprised by how much poop American dogs generate. Yeah, they.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, they're like, they're American dog owners. You know, we're per capita, number one.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

We'Re good at pooping. And the amount of dog poop produced in the United states every year, 1,000 football fields covered in about a foot of poop for our pet poop.

[Mike Pesca]

I'm glad they don't have the puppy bowl in that arena, actually. Is there any indication that one of the reasons we use so much toilet paper is we wipe too much compared to other countries?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I think it's the lack of bidets too.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Like, I think culturally we just like love using paper. We use paper towels more than other people.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So what can a conscientious dog owner do. If it turns out that these compostable bags aren't really compostable, they want to do something to help the environment.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

You can lobby your government, your local government to create a dog waste collection, which has actually been done in two places. Nantucket, Massachusetts and Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Mike Pesca]

But what's funny, similar demographics in both those places. Very small, very environmentally conscious. Lots of dogs, lots of poo.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah. And what I thought was amazing is you're poo must come unbagged to the Nantucket waste facility, but to the Brattleboro, Vermont waste facility, it must be in a compostable bag.

[Mike Pesca]

That's obviating some of the purpose of their very facility. Well, you know, there once was a dog from Nantucket whose poo stank so much they would muck it. I can't go on from there. I just have two of the five lines of the limerick. Okay, let's give our assessment, though. There won't be much mystery. There'll be a lot of value in this. Compostable doggy poo bags. Are they bullshit?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

They are so bullshit. I think they're the most bullshit thing we've hit.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, interesting. And we've done like, crystal and energy healing. No, we haven't, but we could. Okay, compostable, or I should say recycled toilet paper. Are they bullshit?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

That's not bullshit. We should probably all use it.

[Mike Pesca]

I love it. So this was another episode of Is that dog shit? Is that human shit? And of course, is that bullshit that the guest has been the estimable Sadie Dingfelder, author of Do I Know you? A Face Blind Reporter's Journey into the Science of Sight, Memory and Imagination. And also dog poo. Thank you, Sadie.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Thank you.

[Mike Pesca]

The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. And now the spiel. Pam Bondi, our Attorney General, mine and yours, testified before the House Judiciary Committee and is the remit of the Attorney General per the Constitution. She yelled at everyone. She yelled at Thomas Massie. She yelled at Rep. Becca Bolland, who stormed out after being called anti. Semitic. I lost a grandfather in the Holocaust. Doesn't matter. Bondi smiled. She yelled. Bondi did. When asked about the Epstein files, her answer was this. Market update.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

The dow is over $50,000. I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader. As I hear Raskin, the dow is over 50,000 right now, the S&P at almost 7,000 and the NASDAQ smashing again.

[Mike Pesca]

The hearing was about the Epstein files, though it could have been ice, doj, overreach, resignation of attorney generals. And that NBC News alert for the hard of hearing would have been Bondi's. Go to now, the Raskin who was called a great stock trader in that quote was Rep. Jamie Raskin, ranking member, who was also referenced by Bondi during this exchange. You can let her filibuster all day long, but not on our watch, not on hour time. No way. And I told you about that Attorney General before you start.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

You don't tell me.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, I did tell you because we saw what you did in the Senate.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Lawyer. Not even a lawyer.

[Mike Pesca]

Quietest utterance of the day. That was Bondi saying to Raskin, you washed up loser. Lawyer. Not even a lawyer. We know why Raskin got under Bondi's skin. It is because of the paper thin nature of it, of the epidermis of every member of Trump's cabinet. That is by design. Trump basically demands it. No one could have thicker skin than he does and he has very, very thin skin. It is also the clear playbook that he demands. A Trump official yells at a Democrat during a hearing and Trump always regards that exchange to have been won by the Trump official. So with that in mind, here was Raskin during a time when Bondi wasn't allowed to brag. Trump orders up prosecutions like pizza and you deliver every time and you snap to it. You replace real prosecutors with counterfeit stooges who robotically do the President's bidding. Bondi was an embarrassment to all, including the Dow and the S and P and Nasdaq who are all down today, perhaps out of shame. But the real reason that Bondi was embarrassing was not just that she is on the wrong side of the issues. Right? We can all agree, can't we? Even if you thought that Bondi was in possession of some set of facts that were exculpatory to Trump and his Cabinet's interest vis a vis Jeffrey Epstein. That doesn't matter. Based on how she comported herself, she treated Congress as a punching bag or as an opportunity for a viral clip, she threw out unfair accusations like washed up lawyer and many more. It was not an example of someone properly conducting themselves. There was no decorum. And that alone, I think we can all agree, no matter what her stance on the Issues is not a way for a public servant to act. We can all agree, right? Well, if we can all agree. A little challenge. A day before, there was testimony by ICE's Acting Director Todd Lyons, before the House Committee on Homeland Security. Even the Republican chair, Andrew Gabarino had tough questions for him, as did Democrats. For example, Dan Goldman asked him, what other regimes make you show your papers? The answer was not the good ones. And Democrat Eric Swalwell, in kind of a stunt question, asked him to apologize and then acted indignant when he wouldn't. That's all within the general realm of congressional hearing showmanship, which I don't love, but the show must go on. Then there was New Jersey representative Lamonica McIver, who went a step further with this exchange.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Mr. Lyons, do you consider yourself a religious man?

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, ma'.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Am. Oh, yes. Okay. Well, how do you think Judgment Day will work for you with so much blood on your hands?

[Mike Pesca]

I'm not going to entertain that question.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Oh, okay. Of course not. Do you think you're going to hell, Mr. Lyons?

[Mike Pesca]

I'm not going to end, of course. How many government gentlelady will suspend? The gentle lady will suspend, Chairman, as I, a gentlelady will suspend. As I said, the issues we're debating here are important to ones that members have to say. I briefly felt for Lyons, a man who is overseeing a quasi lawless law organization. Why should anyone have to answer about their religious beliefs or the disposition of one's soul under oath from questioning by an elected official? That is not what this hearing was about. That is not what the US Government should be doing. I shook my head a little bit and thought it to be shameless. And I have to say, I was predisposed to like Lamonica MacGyver. She was the representative arrested by agents as she tried to inspect a detention facility in her own New Jersey district. Clear prosecutorial overreach once more. I guess there's a decent enough counterargument, which is Dow 50,000, NASDAQ up in after hours trading. Anyway, MacGyver was, to my mind, before that exchange, sympathetic. The New Yorker had written a very flattering profile of her. Quote, MacGyver, who is 39 with long dark hair and a ready smile, is personable and unguarded. She led me to a sparsely furnished conference room and offered me coffee and a snack. I'm a mom, she said. Need to make sure everyone is fed. Yeah, but in the hearings, she was a demagogue, reacting, I guess, to incentives offered by social media and political polarization. I still think it's unbecoming. And I think we can all agree. We can still all agree, right, that there are ways of conducting oneself before Congress or as a member of Congress that undercut not just the institution, but one's own agenda. And that's it for today's show. Cory War produces the gist. Jeff Craig does video stuff somewhere out there. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. That Sadie interview we ran today, there's video of it. There's the written form. I mean, we basically have everything except the dance interpret, I'm told. Substack, Mike Peska, substack.com the dance interpretation is up there as well. Ben Astaire is now doing our booking, and Michelle Pesca oversees it all benevolently with only fair questions, tough, pointed, but fair questions. And yes, thanks to that question, I will, in fact, apologize. And thanks for listening.