Jake Tapper: Original Sin, Ongoing Fracturing

Summary

The Gist: Jake Tapper – Original Sin, Ongoing Fracturing

Release Date: July 17, 2025

Hosts: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Jake Tapper (CNN Anchor & Co-author of Original Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again)

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Gist, host Mike Pesca engages in a deep and provocative conversation with CNN’s Jake Tapper. The discussion revolves around Tapper’s recent work, particularly his book Original Sin, which scrutinizes President Joe Biden's administration, focusing on perceived declines in leadership and decision-making. The conversation delves into media accountability, public perception, and the intricate dynamics between political narratives and journalistic integrity.

---

Trump Administration and Immigration Policies

Mike Pesca initiates the conversation by addressing recent developments in the Trump administration’s immigration policies, notably the controversial "Alligator Alcatraz" detention center in Florida. Pesca highlights the public's shifting opinion on immigration, referencing a Gallup survey indicating that only 30% of Americans now favor decreasing immigration—a significant drop from 55% the previous year.

Notable Quote:

"30% of Americans want immigration decreased, down from 55% a year ago. So only 30, not even close to a majority of Americans are now saying get these people out of the country."
— Mike Pesca [02:40]

Pesca discusses the dichotomy between public support for border security and the disapproval of the Trump administration's implementation strategies, questioning the effectiveness and public reception of policies like Alligator Alcatraz.

---

Substack Live with Sam Stein

Pesca references a live session with Sam Stein, managing editor of The Bulwark, where they explored the Trump administration's enforcement strategies. The conversation underscores the administration's emphasis on tangible actions and media spectacle, which Pesca argues may not align with public sentiment or long-term effectiveness.

Notable Quote:

"Trump is sort of forcing most people into a game where he is calling the shots… even if we're being manipulated into being angered and shocked and dismayed, those are legitimate responses."
— Mike Pesca [07:15]

---

Introducing Jake Tapper and His Book

Pesca transitions to discuss Jake Tapper’s book tour for Original Sin. He outlines the book's central thesis: President Biden's decline in cognitive abilities and the subsequent cover-up, questioning Biden's decision to run for reelection.

Notable Quote:

"Original Sin is an attempt at accountability retroactively doing what you can as a newsman."
— Mike Pesca [09:00]

---

In-Depth Interview with Jake Tapper

Automated Pardons and Legalities

The interview delves into the controversial use of automated systems (referred to as "auto pens") by the Biden administration for issuing pardons. Tapper clarifies the legality of such practices, asserting that previous administrations deemed it lawful.

Notable Quote:

"It's legal to use an auto pen. It's been legal. The Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department said during the Bush years that it was perfectly fine to do so."
— Jake Tapper [12:21]

Tapper discusses the lack of evidence supporting allegations that Biden used auto pens to circumvent presidential authority, emphasizing the absence of wrongdoing in their book's findings.

Investigations into the Biden Administration

The conversation shifts to congressional investigations led by figures like James Comer, focusing on the Biden family's financial dealings. Tapper critiques the investigative process, highlighting unmet promises to uncover evidence of illicit activities by President Biden.

Notable Quote:

"Investigations are done by finding out what you do know and can prove and you don't over promise."
— Jake Tapper [14:23]

Tapper expresses skepticism about the effectiveness of these investigations, comparing them to the overreaching inquiries into the Biden family that failed to produce substantial evidence against the president himself.

Media’s Role and Accountability

Pesca challenges Tapper on media accountability, particularly regarding the coverage of President Biden's alleged cognitive decline. He references criticism from conservative figures and the perception of media bias.

Notable Quote:

"Is the media biased against Democrats, and is that why they didn't report Biden's diminishment?"
— Mike Pesca [31:49]

Tapper responds by defending the media’s efforts, citing instances where investigative journalism did address Biden's performance, albeit limited. He acknowledges shortcomings and the complex incentive structures within modern journalism that may hinder comprehensive reporting.

Notable Quote:

"We have a lot of reasons why this stuff didn't get covered the way it did. There were serious attempts to cover it."
— Jake Tapper [33:33]

Media Siloing and Public Perception

The discussion touches on the increasing polarization of media consumption, with Tapper noting that American audiences are becoming more siloed than ever. He observes that both left and right-leaning media entities often attack legacy media for different reasons, contributing to a fragmented public discourse.

Notable Quote:

"People on the left have no idea that Alex and I have been attacked on the right… and vice versa."
— Jake Tapper [23:39]

Tapper expresses concern over misinformation and the erosion of journalistic standards in the age of democratized media, emphasizing the importance of maintaining integrity and striving for unbiased reporting.

---

Impact of Original Sin and Future Implications

Tapper reflects on the societal impact of his book, suggesting that it has shifted the Overton window regarding perceptions of President Biden’s capabilities. He notes a growing consensus that Biden may not be fit for reelection, influenced by both political discourse and media coverage.

Notable Quote:

"There is an acceptance that Joe Biden should not have run for reelection and that he was in no way equipped to run."
— Jake Tapper [20:23]

He anticipates that this shift will lead to increased scrutiny of other Democratic figures, such as Vice President Kamala Harris and various members of Congress, potentially paving the way for broader political reforms.

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Pesca and Tapper acknowledging the challenges facing modern journalism and the importance of striving for truth and accountability in political reporting. Tapper underscores the necessity of robust, unbiased media to sustain a functioning democracy amidst increasing polarization and misinformation.

Notable Quote:

"What we do is really important to a thriving democracy. We're trying to record what is going on."
— Jake Tapper [56:53]

Pesca and Tapper sign off by emphasizing the critical role of investigative journalism in uncovering truths and holding leaders accountable, urging listeners to remain informed and critical of the media they consume.

---

Key Takeaways

• Public Opinion on Immigration: Significant shift against reducing immigration, challenging the Trump administration's policies and strategies.

• Investigative Challenges: Congressional investigations into the Biden administration face hurdles due to lack of evidence and overpromising by investigators.

• Media Accountability: The media's role in reporting political figures' declines is contentious, with accusations of bias hindering comprehensive coverage.

• Polarization and Siloing: Increasing media polarization leads to fragmented public discourse, with both left and right media attacking legacy outlets for differing reasons.

• Impact of Original Sin: Tapper's book has influenced public perception of President Biden's fitness for office, potentially affecting future political dynamics and accountability.

---

Note: This summary excludes all advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Mike Pesca and Jake Tapper.

Transcript

[Jake Tapper]

Foreign.

[Mike Pesca]

2025 from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca. So as you know, I try to avoid and ignore conspiracies that aren't true. What I try to do is concentrate on substance. I have a special niche of correcting misimpressions. The misimpressions I see as maybe being perpetrated through the mainstream media world. I don't like to be play into the hands of propagandists. So this is why I didn't spend too much time on the Epstein story before yesterday. And then yesterday I kind of said things backwards, or at least my brain and tongue were involved in a conspiracy. So to be clear, yeah, Epstein killed himself in his jail cell. There is no evidence otherwise. But this brings me to another shiny bauble, or what's the opposite, a fetid hunk of meat. Alligator Alcatraz. The Trump administration wants the shock of the outrage. And Democrats or people of good conscience, of course they're going to be outraged. It's outrageous. What are decent people supposed to do when they hear about the conditions in this Florida detention center? Not be appalled. That's the point. So Trump is sort of forcing most people into a game where he is calling the shots. So I haven't talked too much about alligator Alcatraz, but I think I have to. And I think that front page New York Times reporting shows that it is pretty horrific. And even if we're being manipulated into being angered and shocked and dismayed, those are legitimate responses. If you look at similarly the exporting of prisoners to countries where the prisoners have no ties and where the United States really should not be doing business, South Sudan and Today, Eswatini, until 2018 it was known as Swaziland. As I talk about on the just list in substack today, the king of Swaziland. Sorry, Eswatini, you want to be proper with a man with 11 wives? The country has a 29% HIV positive rate and now five prisoners from Laos and Vietnam. Eswatini says they will repatriate them. I think the statistics and the polling on immigration seem to indicate that the public has soured on the Trump plan, the Trump execution of that plan and you've probably heard top line numbers from a recent Gallup survey. 30% of Americans want immigration decreased, down from 55% a year ago. So only 30, not even close to a majority of Americans are now saying get these people out of the country. 79% consider immigration good for the country and support for the border wall and mass Deportation is down, on the other hand. So that was a July 11th survey. July 9th, YouGov did a survey, and one of the number one issues for Trump in terms of net approval is border security. In fact, right after national security, it's the only one where he does have a net approval rating. So you might say, oh, so what he's doing at the border is working. But there are other items in the poll that show not immigration, he's minus 9%. Refugee admissions, he's minus 10%. So how can we have a public that likes the border security policies but doesn't like the immigration policies? Aren't they the same thing? It's that the public is isn't always perfectly laser focused on all the nuances of issues, which is exactly why big, splashy initiatives like Alligator Alcatraz play and the Trump administration thinks they work for them. But I wonder how it all is landing. I did a very good substack live with Sam Stein. I don't know if you know about these things. It's kind of casual. Two people get on a live chat, and if you're on substack, you could participate, ask question, or just watched. I asked Sam, who's the managing editor of the Bulwark, this fundamental question I'm wondering about regarding public opinion and immigration. And the question was, well, rather than just have me describe the question, just thinking about the specter of these masked ICE agents. Such bad practice, bad even for ice. If you want legitimacy into people and for people to believe you not, you're just a band of marauding thugs who might be throwing people in the back of a van, thinking about all these horrific prison conditions which the administration is all too proud to highlight. So here's the question that I put, Sam. My question is, do you think it's how the Trump administration has enforced their immigration policy or that they have?

[Jake Tapper]

I think it's probably a more how.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. And so Sam's answer of the how the strategy of how the Trump administration was removing people from the country, how they were deciding which people to remove, taking workers needed on farms, taking work crews and leaving them decimated. Okay, I think that's a good point. I was thinking more of the how the shows of force and the toughness and the Kristi Noem with her athleisure doing photo ops in front of prisoners. I do think it's a lot of that. And I do think that it's true that Americans want less illegal immigration. And Trump rightly interprets that at a mandate, and then he gives the People what they want in his style, which is, of course, ramshackle and made for the cameras and would cause decent people to recoil at not just alligators, but also Alcatraz. And so people, Americans who don't like what they're seeing on immigration might be the practical effects of, oh, we didn't mean those nice people to be picked up, or we didn't want to authorize scary thuggery. But I also think Americans are saying, oh, we didn't want our lettuce prices to go up. It's all tied together. And it's hard to know what the public is actually thinking on this or if Trump will be punished. It's pretty clear that Trump thinks the public is behind him. He's not letting up on the immigration tactics. And it's hard for him not to go for a photo op and to look like a tough guy when that is in any way available to him. So that was a little bit of a reference to this substack live that I did with Sam Stein. I'm doing another one today with Jeff Edelstein, late columnist for the Trentonian. But on the show today, it is a full show interview, and it's a lot about media, and it's with a guy in the middle of the media who's not so thrilled with the direction of the media. And he knows Jake Tapper. You've seen him on this massive book tour. Part of that book tour is we bit off a slice of it and played it for you when I went out to Seattle to interview him. Jake is the anchor of the lead on cnn. He is also the coauthor, with Alex Thompson, of Original Sin, President Biden's decline, its cover up, and his disastrous choice to run. Again, this conversation will be about the lessons not just that Jake is imparting to us via his book, but the lessons that he took from going around the country talking about the book, talking about the administration, and talking to and about the media. Jake Tapper. Up next at True Classic. The mission goes beyond fit and fabric. It's about helping guys. Guys like me, maybe guys like you or a guy like, you know, show their confidence, show their purpose, their stride. Right now, I'm wearing a True Classic T shirt. This thing looks great. I have a black one. I got like an off gray one. I wear them all the time. I don't really even have to think so much about anything other than they're gonna look good. They're gonna go with almost everything I wear. They're casual, yet classy enough to get the job done. They make me feel good about myself, feel amazing and the price is fantastic. True Classic of course has remarkable fit, remarkable fabric. They also have a lot of intention behind everything they do. It was built, the brand was built to make an impact. So it's helping a guy like me show up better in my daily life. And with you on the show, they also get back to underserved communities. They make people laugh. Maybe not me today in this ad read, but you know, potentially the ads don't take themselves too seriously though. This is a serious. I really have to show off how classic this True Classic shirt is. I want you to feel the difference the moment you throw one on. No bunching, no stiff fabric, just what's the word for it? True Classic. Built for comfort, built to last, built to give back. You grab them at Target, at Costco or head to trueclassic.com the gist which helps us the most when you peruse their wares. Trueclassic.com the gist and get hooked up today. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. Money is at the core of at least half of the issues we covered and a little bit deeper down with all of them. Financial stress is a major part of life. The finances of our nation drive our nation, drive our people and can drive our children a little mad. Teaching kids about money isn't just smart, it's the right thing to do. For them, it's essential. So what Greenlight does is offer a debit card and a money app for families. It's a safe way to teach kids and teens about money, preparing them for bigger financial decisions later. Learn to save, invest and build money confidence. They're not scared of it. If I green light when I was growing up, I'd probably be a bit savvier. I know people, people close to me in my own life who if they had green light growing up, things would massively have changed. So this is why I recommend that you give your kids the financial education many people didn't get. Greenlight is the easy, convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and families to navigate life together. Maybe that's why millions of parents trust and kids love learning about money on Greenlight, the number one family finance and safety app. Don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today at greenlight.com/the gist. Jake Tapper is on the tail end of his book tour for original sin. President Biden's decline its cover up and his disastrous choice to run again. He coauthored that book with Alex Thompson. I discussed it with him and played it on the show. Even if you haven't read the book, I know you know that it chronicles Joe Biden's decline and key decisions around the 2024 election. So I wanted to have Jake on again, and he was gracious to come on again, not to talk about the exact details of the book that is out there. And I commend you to many interviews he's done or the book itself. But I wanted to ask some questions, but prompted by the book and questions about media questions in the ether, things that I've been thinking a lot about. So thanks for doing this, Jake.

[Jake Tapper]

Sure, of course. My pleasure. You did a great interview with me and Alex in Seattle, and it's always good to talk to you.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, same here. But I wanted to start with, I don't know if you want to call it minutia, definitely the tangible auto pension. So, first of all, it's legal to use. They're legal to use. It's as legal for a president to put his signature in a proclamation with an auto pen as it is to use a typewriter to write the words on the proclamation. So that's not in dispute, right?

[Jake Tapper]

No, it's, it's, it's legal. It's been legal. I think the Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department said during the Bush years, George W. Bush years, that it was perfectly fine to do so. What. What is being alleged, and we should note this is not in our book. We did not find evidence of this, which is not to say that it happened or it didn't happen, but we did not find evidence of it. And we tried to be very demanding of what we put in the book. They are saying that basically there was just a bunch of people who just did whatever they wanted to do and used the auto pen to circumvent President Biden when it came to pardons especially. And I, Alex and I found no evidence of that at all when we were writing the book. But that is what they're having these hearings about. I mean, they didn't ask me for advice as to what they should be looking for. But I mean, I think that what we uncovered is shocking enough. I don't think you have to come up with some sort of convoluted, well, this pardon isn't real or that pardon isn't real, because I don't know that they're going to find that. But what we found was shocking enough.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So this brings me to the specific. And then I want to generalize it out in general, they're using this as a way to get to the question of compost mentors. But I don't understand how that question as applied to the auto pen is different. Different from every question of Campos mentors, if he was of his right mind. I understand that the auto pen is a tangible item and I understand that Donald Trump is very good at knowing that people focus on tangible items like big pallets of money with the Iran deal, which wasn't necessarily true, or two dolls in dealing with tariffs. So I get that he uses it for rhetorical reasons. But do you understand better than I do why they're focusing on the auto pen as opposed to other things in your book or other things that Republicans could be investigating and focusing on?

[Jake Tapper]

Well, there are two different investigations. One is the Senate Judiciary Committee and they have interviewed some of Biden's aides and they have been, they seem to be focused more on the campus Mentis piece of this. Not that I, this is just from watching and reading about it. I haven't talked to people on either one of the committees. The other one is the Oversight Committee, James Comer. Comer has a history when it comes to the Biden family, ever since becoming chairman of the Oversight Committee of, of, of aiming high, let's put it that way, of setting a goal and aiming for that. And I think Biden crime family was part of that during Biden's years. And he promised a lot that he, that he didn't ultimately deliver, which was he promised that he would find evidence that Joe Biden himself had profited inappropriately from various business dealings. And that's, you know, that's not how investigations are done. Investigations are done by finding out what you do know and can prove and you don't over promise.

[Mike Pesca]

And it's also called building a case.

[Jake Tapper]

Right? Right. Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Not starting from a future.

[Jake Tapper]

You're not a sculpture sculptor. Right. In with a big thing, a slab of marble. And look, I think it's, it's unquestionable that Hunter Biden and Jimmy Biden and other members of the Biden family profited from their proximity to then Vice President Biden. I think that's unquestionable. But he didn't set the stage that that was the goal. He set the stage that they were going to find evidence that Joe Biden himself profited and there would be impeachment hearings, et cetera, et cetera. And that didn't happen because he didn't ultimately convince House Republicans that he had made the case. And it is possible if past his prologue that, that is what is he, he is doing again? I don't know, maybe, maybe he will find evidence. I, I don't know how you're going to find evidence of, I mean, I, I just don't think they're going to find somebody saying, yes, he didn't know what he was signing and we did the auto penny and he had no idea. Now, is it possible that he didn't know the name of every single one of the, let's just make up a number and say 300 people that he pardoned.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, well, there were 40,000 pardons, including the marijuana pardons.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

It might be pardons and commutations.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, but of course he didn't. Right? I mean, of course he, that's not, that's neither did that happen with President Biden or, I'm sorry, with President Trump or with President Obama, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't know what they're, maybe they'll find something. I don't know. But I mean, I think that they are shooting high once again.

[Mike Pesca]

So at the risk of turning you into a political pundit here, just be an analyst. Does this mean that the Colmer investigation, if past is prologue and he's conducting it like he did the Biden crime family, quote, unquote investigation isn't working out as that committee wants it to work out, or is there evidence that it is?

[Jake Tapper]

I don't know what's going on behind closed doors. I haven't seen any evidence of, of what they're getting in witness interviews. You know, they, they, I have no idea. Maybe he'll, maybe he will. I mean, look, he has subpoena power. I don't, you know, so maybe, you know, people that talk to me and Alex for the book were not under threat of perjury. So I, I have no idea what he'll get. Look at somebody interested in transparency. I hope he, I hope he finds out a lot more. I mean, well, that's my hope.

[Mike Pesca]

That's exactly where I'm hitting at this from as someone interested in transparency. I'm wondering if there's evidence that this kind of committee is the proper mechanism for identifying the problem and getting at solutions. Or is it more an exercise in stirring up dust and dirt?

[Jake Tapper]

I mean, look, they have subpoena power. They have smart staffers that work on the committee. They have smart members of Congress on the Oversight committee. I'm sure that there, it is possible that they could find stuff out but at the end of the day, you know, you're only as good as your sources. And I don't know that they, you know, the most damning stuff in the book, some of it we have attributed to individuals, some of it, you can guess who our sources are. Some of it is sourced on background, but I don't know that any of it's criminal. I mean, I think the point is they're trying to find and they're trying to find evidence of illegality. And the book we wrote does not allege illegality. The book we wrote alleges, you know, a disaster and a cover up and something that was shocking and horrible and that our country should never have to go through again. But, you know, so it's almost like that old joke about the guy under the street light looking for his keys and, you know, the person joins him. I'll just do the short version. It's not a funny joke anyway. But the short version is like, you know, he's only looking under that light for his key. He lost his keys actually over there. He's looking under here because the light's so much better. I mean, it's like, okay, we need to find evidence of a crime, therefore this is where we're going to look. Instead of, well, let's just look into what happened with President Biden and find out where it takes us.

[Mike Pesca]

So obviously I read your book and there were elements of it about how involved Hunter Biden was in a non criminal way in his father's decision making. And it was just very troubling. Let me just say that. But I want to know, this isn't necessarily why you wrote the book, but the uncovering of facts in the book led to, so far as you could see, what tangible changes in the real world.

[Jake Tapper]

I think if anything, it was overton window. I think there's an acceptance that Joe Biden should not have run for reelection and that he was in no way equipped to run in 2024 or be president through 2029. I think that that is kind of just established fact.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so if there was an open question before the book was written, that question is now much, much more close.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah. And I would say that there are questions for people who were close to Biden about what they saw and when they saw it that have yet to be answered that I don't think they're going to be able to. Like for instance, if Kamala Harris runs for governor or runs for president, I think she's going to face questions on that in a much more aggressive way. Same with people to judge, Same with other people who worked in the Biden administration. So I think that's it. I, I have seen other influences that we have had. There is a city councilwoman who came out and basically said that our delegate here in Washington, D.C. eleanor Holmes Norton, who is a trailblazer and a legend, but also I think she's 89 years old, not allowed to drive anymore. There are questions about whether she should be in Congress, whether she should be running for reelection. And there's a city councilwoman who referred to our book and said I don't think she should. And then there is a, I'm not going to take credit for this one, but there is a congresswoman, the only congresswoman, the only Democratic official who I saw who not only called for Biden to not run for reelection, but said he should step down as president. And that is this one of my, one of the most interesting members of Congress that there is a woman named Marie Glusenkamp Perez. She's from Washington State, she's in a swing district. And she in the Appropriations Committee a week or two ago tried to introduce an amendment that would allow a path for, if members of Congress are addled, where there's a procedure where somebody could report that to the Board of Ethics or whatever. And it was shot down by voice vote because neither Democrats nor Republicans want that out there. They want to be able to be in Congress until they kick the bucket. But I do think that, I'd like to think that we played a part in at least the conversation.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah, I saw that. I put that in the gist list. Did I saw the Axios article? Did your coauthor Alex write that article?

[Jake Tapper]

I don't think so, but I know he's interested in it, too.

[Mike Pesca]

So maybe one of the reasons that he didn't is you guys have been on this huge book tour and you hit a lot of left media, whatever unbiased media there is, you hit a lot of right media, you hit right leaning media. If they've bifurcated into two camps of, I don't know, roughly, we need more clamoring on the Epstein investigation, or we agree with Trump that the Epstein investigation was always bullshit. What I'm saying is if you were a botanist and you came back with a soil sample from all of these different genomes, what would you, you would be able to construct some sort of biome. What's it like out there? What did you learn from the book tour that was surprising that we're even More siloed.

[Jake Tapper]

And by we, I mean the American people are even more siloed than. Than I thought we were where people are. People on the left have no idea that Alex and I have been attacked on the. On the right. People on the right have no idea the people on the left have attacked. I mean, like just completely different universes. Also, I would say that misinformation, disinformation, bad journalism is just thriving. It's just like I've never seen before. I mean, I think that that's just a part and parcel of the democratization of the media. But. But it is. It is. It's weird. I'll tell you what's weird. It's weird to see. So Hunter Biden made up some crazy story about me that really has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than the fact that he doesn't like me, I guess, whatever. And he. It's not even really worth going into the story except to say it's not true. But all of a sudden all these right wing outlets that have only quoted Hunter Biden to attack him for a decade.

[Mike Pesca]

The one thing you need to know about Hunter Biden is he's totally incredible. And the apotheosis of dishonesty. But once he attacks Jake.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, that's the thing. It's just like. That's the other thing that I learned is that the right media, right wing media, by which I mean everybody to the right of like Jonah Goldberg, hates legacy media more than they hate Democrats. That was that, I think is. That was interesting to me. That's just a conclusion based on the fact that I generally think that. I try not to take it personally. I think I'm just kind of like an avatar for legacy media. But the idea that the New York Post is willing to quote Hunter Biden by concocting some story about me. The New York Post is the anti Hunter Biden publication in the world. I mean, that is their bread and butter in so many ways. And that just is so. That was so interesting to me. But I think we're in a bad. I think. I think we're in a bad place. I mean, like in terms of the media.

[Mike Pesca]

By the way, what you just said, that the right wing media or anything to the right of the Dispatch hates the media more than the Democrats. This is a Steve Bannon thesis for a while, and you could say a lot about Steve Bannon, but he has a pretty good theory of the case when it comes to electoral success.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, it's like that old story about the members of The House, like, two Republicans are talking with each other and they refer to House Democrats as the opposition, but the Senate as the enemy. And it's just like, it's not really about party alliance and, and whether it's Bannon or Trump or whatever. But, I mean, I think, I think Democrats are doing it, too, to the media. But, but the idea that hating legacy media is more important than hating the people who are actually political opposition. And I don't, I just, I find it surprising, really, honestly. But maybe I'm naive on this sort of stuff. I mean, I am old. So, you know, I just came up in a different era where, like, I still sometimes think, like, what would Peter Jennings think about tweets? Like, like, how, you know, what would be. What would, what would Peter Jennings think about? Like, some of this other stuff, you know?

[Mike Pesca]

We'll be back in a minute with more of Jake Tapper of cnn, author of Original Sin, in which I put some very common critiques in the conservative sphere, the sort of critiques that they're banging their heads against the wall that no one's asked. JAKE Tapper, so I will listen. I can't help you with everything in the bedroom, like different sleep numbers or different comfort zones, different climates, sometimes not even climates that touch each other, Tundra, rainforest, that sort of thing. But I can help you, or at least give you some advice for what happens between the sheets or if you're feeling frisky, without a sheet at all. Which brings me to him. Through Hims, you can access personalized prescription treatments for ED, like hard mints and sex remedy plus climax control. Hims offers access to ED treatments that cost 95% less than brand names. And they're not even shy about saying the brand names. Viagra, Cialis, HIMS will get you those with a doctor's prescription. Also, once again, Nusex remedy. Nusex Rx plus testosterone support includes Tadalafil for better bedroom performance and zinc being done away with in the form of pennies. But right there for you in the bedroom, testosterone support. All you have to do is fill out an intake form on the HIM site, connect with a medical provider to determine if treatment is right. Just for you. It's all online. You don't have to go to an office. In fact, they don't want you to go. There is no office. They work in an office. You don't have to go to an office. You don't have to wait in line at a pharmacy. You don't need insurance. One low price covers everything from treatments to ongoing care. The medicine will ship discreetly to your door that comes from the office. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] the Gist Find ED treatment that's up to 95% less than brand [e-mail] the Gist hims.com the Gist Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan. Featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for details, restrictions and important safety information. We're back with Jake Tapper. He hosts the lead on cnn, maybe at the exact same time you're listening to this. He's also the co author with Alex Thompson of Original Sin. What I'd like to do right now is, I will quote a segment that Mark Halperin aired yesterday and this was he has a few outlets, but this is on his Megyn Kelly show. So this is what he says.

[C]

The storyline of, of this book and of the dominant media about their role in the attempt to keep the American people from acting on what everybody was seeing, the loss of acuity decline was that until that debate in 2024 where Biden collapsed on stage with Donald Trump, that the public didn't know anything about Joe Biden's decline, that this was a revelatory evening and that what's happened now, according this is the storyline of the book and of the narrative and of their press tour, is that Tapper and Thompson uncovered the truth and that their truth was that starting in 2023 and the end of 2023, that a few hundred Democrats in private settings saw Biden's decline, but they didn't say anything about it. And so that they're guilty of having witnessed something no one else saw. This is the storyline no one else saw and they didn't say anything about it. And that therefore we got to the debate and oh my goodness, what a surprise. Joe Biden has suffered mental acuity decline at 9 o' clock at night. The other part of their storyline, which again is a fiction, but that they've kept at it and succeeded in, in many quarters, was that the reason the press didn't report what everyone in America was seeing was not because they had bias against Donald Trump. That wasn't the reason. The reason was because they didn't see it. There was no way for them to see it because it was all kept secret, okay? That it was hidden by a White House conspiracy that was so effective that no one, including Jake Tapper, could have known about Biden's decline until the debate.

[Mike Pesca]

So I want to put it to you, I want to take that. And there's some extraneous stuff in there. Answer this. The reason the press didn't report Joe Biden's diminishment, it is fair to say one reason the press didn't do that is because the press is biased. How fair is that?

[Jake Tapper]

If that's what he said, that's not what we're saying. And that's not, I mean, that's a fictitious, that's a fictitious narrative. And it's not particularly like throwing up a strawman and then. And beating it up is what people who don't have good arguments do. I will say this. There are a lot of reasons why this stuff didn't get covered the way it did. First of all, there were serious attempts to cover it. Peter Baker at the New York Times wrote a piece in 2022. Michael Scheer of the New York Times wrote a piece. There were commentaries by all sorts of people. Now this is not, this is not reporting, this is commentary. But there's a lot of commentary, not only on the right, by the Hugh Hewitt's of the World and Mary Catherine Ham and others. And maybe Mark was one of them, I have no idea. And then people, some like even on the center left, like David Ignatius or Bill Maher. But in terms of what people were able to uncover facts, investigative journalism, there was not a ton. There was some. Alex did some great stuff for Axios starting like basically April 2023. Siobhan Hughes and Annie Lynskey from the Wall Street Journal did some stuff in June 2024. They got attacked by Democrats, but, but they were onto something. It was a piece like behind the scenes. Biden shows signs of slipping. And it was actually like a groundbreaking piece in June 2024, behind closed doors.

[Mike Pesca]

Biden shows signs of slipping.

[Jake Tapper]

There you go.

[Mike Pesca]

Fourth, 20 days before the debate.

[Jake Tapper]

Yes. And then, and then there also was coverage after the her report about, you know, what the her report was basically saying. Now why wasn't there more? There's, there's this, there's this conflation in this criticism that I think is easy to make, but not investigative reporting, which is commentary. People saying, I see Joe Biden out there and he's adult, he's infirm is the word that Hugh Hewitt used. And other people made those comments. And we all saw it, right? This was the stuff that was public. And this is the reason why so many people in polls, including Democrats by 2024, were saying he's too old to run for president. There's that, and I'm not belittling it at all. And then there is investigative reporting. And the investigative reporting on this is people who were not able to get as much as they wanted to get because sources were quiet. And the reason that sources were quiet was because it had been framed as if you, if you share any of this with anyone, you are only helping Trump. And in fact, even Dean Phillips, who campaigned against Joe Biden because he thought he was too old to win, even he pulled his punches.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, he always couched his message as there was. So there were so many stipulations before he even made his case. Why we need something new. Joe Biden's amazing. And I'm not saying anything about Joe Biden and the old dog still got it. But maybe give me a look. Yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

So I, you know, this is not to excuse any. If somebody wants to point me to an example of investigative journalism that made the case that this was happening to Joe Biden not just from what was publicly available, but from what was going on behind the scenes that I have not referred to, I would be happy and delighted to credit it. I'm just saying that I think that that was one of the reasons why there was as little as there was and there should have been more. Now, then there's this other question. Does being anti Trump or being pro Biden or being pro Kamala Harris play a role in any of that? I can, I can say for me, no. But I also don't speak for anybody.

[Mike Pesca]

Else to channel what almost every conservative thinks. But also this is, I'll tell you what, I think that bias does lead to blinders. And even though I know many, many people in the White House press corps who would have loved a scoop that really show showed that Joe Biden was addled, there are many, many people within the organizations they work with, the culture of those organizations, the people that they socialize with, the audience of those news organizations that would have rebutted, would not have like that. And this all leads to, since we are social animals, you're driven to get a story. Like maybe during the first Trump administration, there was a total drive and every incentive was for most members of the legacy media to break that story that showed that Donald Trump was character with Russia and that impulse just was not there with the Joe Biden story. And I'll tell you something else, which you know that after the very important stories, couple of them you talked about were broken and should have led media organizations to say, oh, maybe there's something to this.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Like the Robert her story.

[Jake Tapper]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

Msnbc, which isn't your network and maybe you're loathe to criticize them, but they're a mainstream network that symbolizes either mainstream media or the Democrats. They had so many stories. I'll read you one headline. Biden memory issues were a lie. Probe transcripts and special counsel Robert her testimony shows. How do you get credibility back from that? I don't think MSNBC has even tried. And there was another one after that Annie Linsky and Siobhan Hughes story. Behind closed doors, Biden shows signs of slipping, which was true.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

CNN's then media critic, which I think gives extra credence or weight to what I'm saying. Oliver Darcy wrote a story, Wall Street Journal story about Biden's mental acuity suffers from glaring problems. They should never have printed the story is what d' Arcy argued. So since all these people are affiliated with the legacy media or mainstream media and they're spending all this time trying to rebut the truth, of course it's going to accrue to the discredit of legacy media, isn't it?

[Jake Tapper]

100%. Yeah. I don't disagree with anything you just said. I agree with it entirely. I mean, I disagreed with when Oliver wrote that. Look, Oliver is a very talented media writer and critic who now has a very popular newsletter. But I disagree with cnn. He's no longer cnn. But I mean, that's not related. But like all of that is to say is Oliver was independent at cnn. He didn't ask me what I thought. And I, when I read that I was. I disagreed very, very strongly. And as soon as the debate was over, I had Annie and Siobhan on to talk about their piece, I think the next week because obviously they had been proven correct. I did not belittle the her report because I believed Robert her. I thought that that was credible and I did not think that the Democratic pushback on it was believable. But I'm just one person. And again, and Alex and I have talked about this at length. I am. I would never argue that knowing then what I know now, that I covered this the way that it deserved to be covered because I did not know how bad it was behind the scenes. I wish I had been more aggressive. Alex too, who broke stories, he and I have talked about this. Like, even though he had broken all this stuff, like about the fact that Biden's schedule was pretty much kept at 10am to 4 or 5pm that once we started Writing this book. Once the, Once the election was over, the sword of Damocles was gone. There was no longer a threat of Trump, it was a reality of Trump. And people started actually talking to us. Once that happened, we couldn't believe how bad it was. So I don't know. I get the critique that the media writ large was did not do as good, as good a job as we should have in a perfect world. What I'm wondering about is point me to the example of investigative journalism that was done by people that, you know, not legacy media conservatives or whoever, or progressives or, you know, whatever that was being done that the legacy media was not paying attention to. That's all I'm saying. Like, there's a difference between commentary and it's. Again, I'm not belittling at all, but showing Joe Biden tripping on a stairwell and laughing at him, or calling him Sippy Cop or saying his brain is turned to pea soup or whatever, like, fine, that's not investigative journalism. I'm not criticizing it. It's just different. Where's the investigative journalism and the argument that there wasn't an incentive structure for that? Investigative journalism is one that I've heard Alex make, and I don't disagree with it, but I just don't know of evidence of it being because of that incentive structure. We have a reporter in the book who had been hearing some of the same things that Annie and Siobhan had been hearing in May and was preparing, working on a story about Biden showing signs of slipping. And Steve Ruschetti, who's a top Biden aide, basically says to this reporter, well, I was at all these meetings, and I will go and basically suggest to this reporter, I'm going to go on the record and saying everything you're saying is not true. So just FYI, and like, that reporter backs off, doesn't have it. And even if you look at Annie and Siobhan's story, obviously they talked to Democrats, but there's not one House Democrat or Congressional Democrat. There's not one Democratic source even quoted in the piece as a Democrat because they were more cautious then in June 2024. I don't even know if we talked to the same people. But assuming we did, our version in our book of that Afghanistan meeting in January 2024 has more quotes from House Democrats or Congressional Democrats or Democratic sources or whatever than theirs does. Not because we're better reporters, but because we did the story after the election was over. So I just, I think that there is this lack of cooperation by Democrats that lets Democrats off the hook. And again, this does get me back to this idea of that people to the right of the Dispatch or National Review. Well, somewhere in the, you know, you'd have to go, you'd have to pick a national among National Review staff. But somewhere to the right of Dispatch, they cook.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. Lowry. No.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, they were, they were more, they seem more invested in attacking legacy media than they are in attacking Democrats, which I'm not even, I'm not judging it. It's just curious to me since obviously this was a cover up conducted by Joe Biden and his family and his top aides.

[Mike Pesca]

This book is a lot of things, but it's an attempt at accountability retroactively doing what you can as a newsman. But you've also had to think about exactly what Alex was saying about the incentive structure. When you think about that for yourself, you're in different positions. You're one of the lead anchors, if not the lead anchor on cnn and he's very respected guy at Axios, but not in that position. So my little.

[Jake Tapper]

He's a White House correspondent is what he is. He's a White House correspondent. But I can go back and remember what it was like being a White House correspondent for ABC News covering Obama. And yeah, the incentive structure was not to do stories about Obama, but when Alex talks about it, he means it more in terms of the societal incentive structure than the editorial incentive structure. Like I, I broke stories about Obama for ABC News that weren't necessarily flattering stories for Obama, but there was never any editorial dissuasion from doing that.

[Mike Pesca]

But certainly, but culture is a potent thing.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, I mean they would, the Biden, I mean, sorry, the Obama people would paint me as a right winger.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

And criticized me as a right winger. And for years the Media Matters folks would attack me as a right winger and, and you know, over and over and over again. And like so. But that's just part and parcel of the incentive structures in journalism today, left, right or center. I mean like you're either going to piss off Newsbusters or you're going to piss off Media Matters. Like it just, you know, you just have to choose your poison on any given day.

[Mike Pesca]

When you think back to the coverage that you did and you do a self analysis, do you see any, do you see punches being pulled for any reasons or. Let me even ask you this two part question. When you mixed it up with Lara Trump about her assertion that Biden stuttered and you've talked about this a lot in the book, in the book tour. And you flat out said you were wrong to your credit. But did you get more positive feedback for that than the normal kind of hard pressing interview you're known for?

[Jake Tapper]

No, no, no, no. And that was also, I mean that was October 2020 and Biden was old and you know, showing his age. But there had been not any serious allegations of acuity issues that I'd seen. Obviously he had been able to campaign from the comfort of his basement because of COVID to a large degree. No, I didn't get like kudos or hosannas or whatever. I mean, the thing about the Lara Trump thing that's interesting is she had made the comment, it had been covered on social media, had been covered by the Daily Mail, it had been covered elsewhere. Sully, the pilot, had written an op ed in the New York Times. I guess he had a stutter when he was younger and criticizing her for attacking Joe Biden and his view, for his stutter, for Biden's stutter. So when I raised that like months later in October in the thick of the election, when Donald Trump Jr. Is alleging Joe Biden's a pedophile on Instagram and all this other stuff, I really honestly didn't think much of it. I thought I was just saying what people like, what has been like, kind of like established. She denied it. And you know, and then after we researched the book and I realized, oh my God, like his Adelman does go back all the way to 2015 and then 2017, 2018. She was right. I called her and that was that. But no, I didn't, I wouldn't say that. I get. And not internally anyway. I don't think anybody said anything to me about that. About that. Look, it was five years ago. I don't remember.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Is there just as the Democratic Party, there are some small footsteps towards trying to reestablish credibility. As to the questions we're talking about either Biden specifically or just the fact that there is a gerontocracy within the party that's going on in political circles. But my question once again is media circles. Do you think that there is that effort among the media who didn't sufficiently expose this? Do you think that the media, CNN and the New York Times and Washington Post and the New Yorker and New York magazine, you know, like the 20 outlets that kind of, kind of shape our opinion, Non, non, specifically ideological media have done enough soul searching, looking back, correction, and trying to reestablish credibility with their readers and listeners.

[Jake Tapper]

I mean, not that, not that I know of. Not that I can discern.

[Mike Pesca]

Should they, can they?

[Jake Tapper]

I mean, it's, it's, it's a complicated issue. Of course we all should, we all should. I mean, we all should try to be the best reporters we can be on any story. And when we fall short, admit it and figure out why we fell short. I think that the current incentives in media are very different than they were when I was coming up 20 years ago or 25 years ago, whenever it was. And there is, I also worry about a whole new generation of reporters that. So there was such, there was such an effort after the WMD fiasco and then again in 2016 after Trump was elected, for the media to learn the lesson that like, there aren't two sides to every story. There's truth and there's, and there's untruth or lies.

[Mike Pesca]

The phrase both sidesism became a pejorative, a shorthand for you're doing it wrong.

[Jake Tapper]

Right. And then, and then that was weaponized by the left, by Democrats to counter anyone trying to provide actual. There are two sides to stories like, I mean, like a tax debate, right?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

There are two sides, or more than two, to debate over the build back better or the, I'm sorry, the one big beautiful bill act. It's not for the media to say this bill is evil. It is for the media to say this is what the bill does and explore different ramifications. There are. But both sidesism as a pejorative was weaponized against the media. And I fear there are some people who have. I saw, I saw a, an Instagram post. I'm going to keep this as benign, descriptive, wise as possible, but I saw an Instagram post by a young reporter with a major news organization that was the most simplistic thing about an international conflict than I, that I had seen. And it was shockingly so and dishonestly so. And I thought we're in trouble, but I fear that, that the next generation. And look, you know, Gen Xers. I'm not saying that like we're the best, but, but, but I fear the next generation, like, it might get even worse. This idea of like, are we searching for the truth or are we searching for narratives that point our preconceived prejudices.

[Mike Pesca]

Are you sure there is a robust market for both sides reporting?

[Jake Tapper]

I don't know. I mean, obviously I, I work for cnn and that is our hope, that that's how people see us. I realize that people on the left see us as corporate media that are too Pro Trump or not tough enough and people on the left, on the right see us as anti Trump, blah, blah, blah, activists. But I don't see CNN that way. I see a lot of reporters trying their hardest and trying their best to be fair, honest reporters without an ideological or partisan bias. Do we always succeed? No, but we try. Do I think that there is a market for it? Yes, because I am trying to thrive in a very difficult competitive news media world right now. And I think that there is that. But it is obviously much more lucrative to preach to choirs. It is obviously much more lucrative if you are a fan of Donald Trump. Trump, you know what channel you can turn on or channels you can turn on and not hear anything where, you know, we're never heard a discouraging word. And if you hate Donald Trump and you love Joe Biden and you don't want to hear a bad word about Joe Biden and you only want to hear, you know, where to go for that. And those are lucrative business models. But I don't know that they are. They're not what we do or what we try to do anyway at cnn.

[Mike Pesca]

I think there is a market, but I'm convinced, I'm 100% convinced it's a niche market. I don't know if it's 40% niche or 10% niche. I mean CNN is. We've seen the figures. You guys make a lot of money, but you get less eyeballs on you on a given day, which is probably because is there really news on a given day? Like new things happening all the time? Maybe. But is that what is put on our television sets every day? Unclear narrative is. But this is my point. I am now. I used to be convinced that most people do want the news and then there are people who want their ideology catered to. Now I think it's opposite. I think there's every evidence that it's opposite.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, I don't know that I agree with a bunch of things you just said, including I would argue anybody, anybody who wants to know whether there's news for two hours from my show every day should turn on at 5:00pm Eastern. The lead with CNN and we do two hours and we try to have a robust discussion and reporting on any number of topics from all over the world to Washington D.C. beyond that, I think you might be right when it comes to news junkies and the most informed people that there is a partizan skew there. I think that you could make a case for that. That I don't think that that represents the public at large or even high information voters at large.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Jake Tapper]

Who might.

[Mike Pesca]

But Jake, non news junkies aren't watching Cable News At 5 o' clock most afternoons without a.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, unless there's a big breaking news story. And like, you know, we do see things happen when there is a, you know, an Iran strike or you know, and people do come to us and.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, CNN becomes the number one station. I think that's true. True in those instances. But only in those instances is it.

[Jake Tapper]

Not important to have a place like that where you can go and say I just want to know what's going on in Iran. I don't want it filtered through. This is great for Trump or this is horrible for Trump.

[Mike Pesca]

Absolutely. But I think it confirms my thesis that while there is enough actual news to fill a two hour show, if that's what you want to do, mostly what we call news is what's consumed by news junkies. And then I don't know if you've seen the studies on passive versus active news. So active news is people who say I want the news and click on a station to cnn. That's the huge ask of them or that's a huge task. Passive news is they sit back and they get in their feeds. Which is not to say they're bad people or worse citizens. It's probably to say that they're younger. But the passive news consumption trends really, really fit in with my thesis that where there's not a huge market for two sides, unbiased news, which is why.

[Jake Tapper]

It is so important for not just CNN but ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, pbs, npr, whoever, to find ways to those citizens, to those consumers and why it is so imperative upon us at CNN to have a presence on people's phones and on people's streaming TVs that allows the passive news consumers to get our content. But without the content, by which I mean the first draft of history being written by me or Maggie Haberman or Siobhan Hughes or Annie Lynskey or Alex Thompson, et cetera, et cetera. Without that first draft, what are we going to have? What are we going to have? We're going to have people filtering news through partisan lenses and people who are ill informed tiktoking away. And I just think what we do is really important to a thriving democracy. Not me, but the fact of somebody trying to record what is going on.

[Mike Pesca]

What'S a story in the news we're not paying attention to could have nothing to do with this. That's really interesting to you.

[Jake Tapper]

I wouldn't Say we're not paying enough attention to it, but I think the Epstein files stuff is just fascinating.

[Mike Pesca]

In terms of fallout for the administration or fascism.

[Jake Tapper]

No, just in the fact that, like, there remains all this documentation out there that can be released that people don't want released. And we're seeing it in real time on the biggest scale ever. Like, people are wondering, like, you know, if you go back, I recommend Julie K. Brown's book Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein story. She's the Miami Herald reporter that broke so much on this. And like, you go back to his arrest or whatever happened to him in 2005, and the police pull up, you know, and all they have is like a sleazy millionaire in his early 50s paying a bunch of young, vulnerable, underage girls for sex raping. I don't mean all they have, but I just mean it wasn't like a grand conspiracy involving lots of people. It was one guy. And the police walk in and they obviously knew that they were coming. The computers had been.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, the absolute. People knew.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, yeah. Because somebody at the state's attorney's office probably tipped them off. And from that moment until this moment right now, the fix is in. And I've just find it fascinating. You don't have to think. I mean, there's a lot of complications and interesting details about the story, but like, you are seeing a real, actual conspiracy playing out in real time in front of all of our eyes. And you are seeing people who previously were the ones pointing it out now completely compromised and part of the problem. And it's fascinating. And like, you don't see something like this every day. This is like, if you wrote this for a movie, people would be like, ah, it's too on the nose, really. Cash Patel and Don Bongino at the FBI and they are now part of it. Come on. So I find it. I find it. And also, like, there's this true story of injustice. These young women, some of them underage, some of them not, were truly, you know, screwed by the system in a horrible way, by the local authorities, by the U.S. attorney's Office and the Bush Justice Department. And now again today, Jake Tapper covers.

[Mike Pesca]

It all on the lead with Jake Tapper, 5 to 7 Eastern time on CNN. And he, along with Alex Thompson, wrote Original Sin, President Biden's decline, its cover up and his disastrous choice to run again. He's also on a book tour that will extend through the rest of the millennium. Thank you so much, Jake.

[Jake Tapper]

Thank you.

[Mike Pesca]

And that's it for today's show. Cory Warr is the producer. Astrid Green runs our Social. Our production coordinator is Ashley Kahn. Leo Baum is the intern. And there, as the Chief justice of our Supreme Court, wearing the robe, banging the gavel lightly but lovingly, is Michelle Pesca. Improve. Thanks for listening.

[D]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.