Podcast Summary: The Gist with Mike Pesca
Episode: James Clyburn: "The World Would Much Rather See a Sermon Than Hear One."
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Rep. James Clyburn
Overview
This episode of The Gist features a wide-ranging, thoughtful conversation between Mike Pesca and Congressman James Clyburn, focusing on Clyburn’s new book about the first eight Black congressmen from South Carolina. The discussion tracks the historical legacy of these trailblazers, drawing connections to contemporary politics, the ongoing reparations debate, and broader social currents affecting American society. Pesca also closes with a “spiel” analyzing the changing demographic makeup of American cultural institutions and its societal consequences.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
Modern Politics and the Reparations Debate
[02:52-12:20]
- Pesca opens with commentary on reparations: Maryland’s political wrangling over studying the topic, similarities to California's precedent, and the economic impracticalities highlighted by recent studies.
- He notes the “political nightmare” created by task forces recommending massive sums—citing the $800 billion proposed for California and discussing the broader political ramifications.
- Pesca argues that, while reparations are not politically viable, initiatives like Clyburn’s "10-20-30 Anti-Poverty Initiative" are more practical and inclusive, providing targeted help to persistently poor communities, disproportionately benefitting Black Americans but not exclusively race-based.
"It's a very American program because it was trying to be aspirationally race-blind and it would help many African Americans if it were to pass, as opposed to reparations...which is not going to pass." – Mike Pesca [08:44]
Interview with Rep. James Clyburn
Discovering the ‘First Eight’
[13:10-16:52]
- Clyburn’s new book, The First Eight, profiles the Black congressmen from South Carolina who served before him.
- He learned about some of them from childhood, especially Robert Smalls, due to his father’s commitment to education and Black history.
- The project evolved during the writing, particularly after seeing contemporary events post-2020 election as echoing the post-Reconstruction turmoil of the 1870s.
"I decided this book had to be more than just to inform. It had to be instructive. And I call it a cautionary tale." – James Clyburn [16:45]
Faith, Family, and Principles
[16:52-18:32]
- Clyburn discusses his father’s influence as a “fundamentalist minister”—a man of profound faith but also practical action:
"Son, you pray for good health and strength, and if the good Lord gives you some modicum of both, get up off your knees and go to work. You must be an instrument of God's peace." – James Clyburn [17:42]
- Clyburn reflects, quoting his father (and Edgar Guest):
"I suspect the world would much rather see a sermon than to hear one." – James Clyburn's father [18:22]
- This line gives the episode its title and underpins Clyburn’s life philosophy.
Biographies That Shaped a State and a Nation
Robert Smalls – Heroism and Legacy
[18:32-25:19]
- Pesca and Clyburn recount the extraordinary life of Robert Smalls: formerly enslaved, he commandeered a Confederate ship to freedom, helped convince Lincoln to allow Black soldiers to enlist, became a successful businessman and politician, and contributed to founding America’s first free public school system.
- Smalls’ deep humanity highlighted by caring for his former enslaver’s widow after emancipation.
"To me, the most consequential South Carolinian who ever lived.... Look at the record...you'll have to conclude that no South Carolinian ever had a life more consequential than Robert Smalls." – James Clyburn [23:32]
The Complexity of Identity and Politics
[25:19-28:28]
- They discuss other figures, including Robert Carlos DeLarge (from a slave-owning Black family) and Thomas E. Miller (of white parentage, raised Black).
"He made a choice to be Black." – James Clyburn on Thomas E. Miller [28:06]
- Clyburn frames these stories not as “politics to decry” but as examples of individuals making vital, identity-shaping choices within and against the prevailing systems.
Reflections on Grant and Reconstruction
[28:28-30:15]
- Clyburn acknowledges Ulysses S. Grant’s merits but critiques his postwar decisions which failed southern Black communities at crucial moments.
"He could have prevented [the Hamburg massacre], and he didn't prevent it. So I think that... I'm mixed on Grant, though, I think on balance he was a great general." – James Clyburn [29:35]
The Politician’s Perspective on History
[30:15-32:33]
- Clyburn admits his approach is different from that of a purely academic historian; he brings the lived perspective of political strategy and real-world consequences, and emphasizes that communities need room for multiple forms of leadership, not just one model.
"Sometimes I look at [these leaders] and wonder whether or not they could have been a little differently, been done a little differently... And in so many instances, we have to learn that all of us have roles to play." – James Clyburn [31:26]
Notable Quotes
- On faith in action:
"The world would much rather see a sermon than to hear one." – James Clyburn's father, via Clyburn [18:22]
- On Robert Smalls’ legacy:
"To me, the most consequential South Carolinian who ever lived." – James Clyburn [23:32]
- On education and identity:
"He made a choice to be Black." – James Clyburn on Thomas E. Miller [28:06]
- On the limits of policy and politics:
"It could have been both. And in so many instances, we have to learn that all of us have roles to play." – James Clyburn [31:26]
The Spiel: White Men and the Culture Industries
[34:47-48:26]
Pesca delivers a nuanced reflection on a debated essay arguing that white men have been effectively shut out of elite cultural institutions (journalism, academia, etc.) over the past decade. He lays out data showing sharp demographic shifts in hiring and recognition awards, discusses the intentions (and achievements) of corrective efforts, and notes both positive and negative reactions.
- Statistics Shared:
- S&P 100 – after BLM, 94% of new jobs went to people of color.
- At various media outlets, white men are a small minority of new hires:
- ProPublica: 66% women, 58% people of color.
- NPR: 78% people of color among new hires.
- Among 161 MacArthur Genius Awards (2019–2025), only 18 went to white men.
- Livingston Awards for young journalists: 20 of 25 recent winners were women.
- Pesca’s broader take:
- The data are “striking.” This was a real corrective to historic exclusion—but also creates new tensions.
- There’s a risk in both ignoring the consequences and overreacting to them (“it’s very hard for me to see how that guy...has anything to say about the rise of Andrew Tate or voting for Donald Trump” [38:58]).
- The meaning of “fairness” is a shifting, socially constructed standard.
"When the immutable characteristics play a very key role in defining you out of your dream profession, it does not feel good. And I further know when that happens, it does tend to show up in discernible and profound ways that we are all, to some extent, living through now." – Mike Pesca [47:31]
Memorable Moments
- Clyburn’s retelling of his father’s values and the story of Smalls seizing the ship — illustrating the importance of action over rhetoric [17:42, 19:37].
- Clyburn’s candidness about the complexities and sometimes contradictions of history and identity (e.g., discussing Black men who owned slaves, or a white man choosing Black identity) [25:19-28:28].
- Pesca’s statistical deep-dive and willingness to confront uncomfortable cultural conversations [34:47-48:26].
Important Timestamps
- [02:52] – Reparations task force debate & context
- [13:10] – Start of Clyburn interview: his book, historical influences
- [16:52] – On Clyburn's father and the value of lived example
- [18:32] – Detailed story of Robert Smalls
- [25:19] – On complexity of identity among the ‘First Eight’
- [28:28] – Reflections on Ulysses S. Grant
- [30:15] – How a politician approaches writing history
- [34:47] – “The Spiel” on demographics in the culture industry
- [47:31] – Reflections on the meaning and consequences of “fairness”
Tone and Language
The episode keeps the conversation thoughtful, direct, and often personal. Clyburn’s voice is wise, clear, and deeply informed by experience, while Pesca is incisive yet open, comfortable posing tough questions and wrestling with uncomfortable data.
For listeners interested in American history, policy, social change, or the evolution of political and cultural representation, this episode is packed with insight, candor, and vivid storytelling.