D (11:02)

Hey. Yeah. No, it's not about becoming me. It's about becoming who they are. That to make. Make things a little easier for people on outside. You know, I wrote a couple of three novels actually, with President Clinton, and to me, the nicest. The best thing about that is we've become friendly and talk a lot. And one of the things that we talk about is if we can't do something to help a certain situation, a disruption that came up that day, we try not to let it ruin our day. And if we can do something, we do it. So earlier this year, I wrote a book about fathers, how to be a better father in an hour. And the reason I made it such a short book is a lot of these guys will not read a 400 page book. So I tried to really compress as much as I could in terms of how to help out. And this book is similarly that kind of thing where every morning we wake up and there's a new whatever the hell, something to drive us crazy. And this book is about handling the negative disruptions that come our way and also dealing with positive disruptions, which is pretty much how I've done whatever the hell I've done. It's dealing with just positive disruptions, asking questions. Things don't have to be the way they are. Consider this, consider that, things like that.

C (12:29)

Yeah. So when you say you wrote, you didn't write it in an hour. That's how long it takes to read it.

D (12:34)

I might have written it in an hour.

C (12:37)

Is the goal to write a book, book faster than it takes to read. Is that what you're going for?

D (12:41)

That's. That would be a goal, sure. No, that's the father. The father book is, is how to be a better dad in an hour. Reading it, you know, in an hour you read it and hopefully you, you will become a better dad with that book. If you read it. It's just helpful. I interviewed an awful lot of people, read everything I could read, and then just try to compress as much information with that. And it's not about do this, do that. It's about consider this, consider that. Are you not doing, could you do better? You know, and this. Actually, you mentioned Vanderb. I was down there, I was talking with Dr. Leddon's, he was running the business school down there. And I started with the notion of are you living a good life to all these kids? And they said, or are you getting on a treadmill to get out another treadmill, get another treadmill. Not to criticize that. If that's what you want to do, that's fine. But are there alternatives to that that you want to consider?

C (13:35)

Right. And you write early on in the book, people should know. You were the head of J. Walter Thompson.

D (13:42)

Yes, I've been clean for, for. Oh, geez. Oh, my God. 20 some years now.

C (13:46)

But this is a legendary advertising agency. But you wanted to be a novelist, and there you are stuck in traffic on the New Jersey Turnpike one way, and you see all the other people whooshing in the other direction. You said, I'm going to. Yeah, I don't want to stay stuck in traffic, which is the treadmill analogy of your day. But how long. When you. And you had written some novels while at J. Walter Thompson but then got really prolific afterwards, when did you first get in touch with your. What economists would call your production function early on? Were you just doing it and not really thinking about how you were doing it?

D (14:21)

Well, I didn't have time, I mean, to necessarily write more than one every year or every couple of years. The advertising job was a big job. And then once I got into. I wasn't doing anything else, I found I had more time. I had a lot of ideas. Somewhere in this office, there's a thing with the clever title ideas, and there are literally hundreds of ideas for not mostly novels in there. And I just started questioning this whole idea, and this is one. In terms of these positive disruptions. Why can you only write one book a year or one book every two years or whatever? And like, a lot of. I mean, one of the publishers had this thing. Not only were you supposed to do one a year, you're supposed to put it at the same month every year because at some idea that that was a great marketing idea. And I kind of questioned. I remember at one point I approached the people in charge at Little Brown and Grand Central, and I said, I'd like to do more than one. And I outlined over the. I wasn't at Zoom. I think I was in their offices. I talked about an Alice Cross book, and they said, that's fine, that's fine. Then I talked about another mystery, Beach House. And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I talked about this book, Suzanne's Diary for Nicholas, which was a love story, a kind of a tragic love story. And when I was doing it, the man who ran the company, he actually cried. And then when I was done, he said, well, you know, we want to do the two mysteries, but we don't want to do the love story because that's not your brand. I don't really think of myself as a brand, but I thought I knew a little bit more about brands than maybe they did. And I said, well, look, I don't think of myself that way, but. But if I did, it probably would be that if you read one of my books, the stories, the pages are kind of going to move very quickly. So if it's a love story and you like love stories, this will be one where the page is kind of. It's very Pacey. So reluctantly, they published all three. And that Suzanne's Diary for Nicholas is actually the second biggest seller that I've ever written.

C (16:32)

Did they advise you to put it out under an assumed name? That's a tactic.

D (16:36)

No, no. Yeah. They know they didn't. But eventually they just said, okay, well, we'll do it.

C (16:42)

Yeah. Do you always think in terms of what's marketable or I would guess that it's more. No. So have you ever written a book saying, I don't know if this will sell, but this one's for me.

D (16:53)

I do them all for me. I. You know, people always like to project the way they think onto other people. I hear that all the time. What drives me is at the end of writing it, I want to say I'm really glad that that worked out and it doesn't all the way sometimes. I mean, you'll write a book and you go, geez, I thought this was going to be. I was excited about it. I was passionate about doing it and didn't work out very well. That does happen. But that's always the thing with me and something. Maybe you know where this comes from. But there's a quote, it's not mine, that I've been living with for the last. Living by the last two or three years, which is my. And I think it's more important for young people than this for me. My time here is short. What can I do most beautifully? And that kind of drives me. I did a book. I have a novel coming out next year with Viola Davis. And I was just really. I knew it was a good idea. It's a Southern. It's a real novel novel. But it has a lot of emotion to it and a lot of. And I knew it had the potential to be a really good story. And I love the idea of. It's about. The main character is a black woman. And I love the idea of doing it with Viola. And I just thought if we pulled it off, it would be a beautiful thing to do.

C (18:12)

I don't know who said it sounds like Seneca or a Stoic, but it is quite a nice quote, I would imagine. And by the way, I take your note that people always project themselves onto other people. This is a habit of mine. I try not to. But I would surmise that while you don't think is explicitly in terms of marketing, I know you don't. You think what's interesting, but your definition of what's interesting is so. The DNA of it is so intertwined with what Americans or the world thinks is most interesting. It's like a composer like Paul McCartney has to work on his music, but also he has that, and John Williams has that. And another type of composer, a John Adams or someone who does atonal symphony doesn't have. It doesn't make him less of a genius. But I would gather that that is something true about you.

D (19:00)

No, and it's too simplistic to say that I don't. But it's not a primary thing. I'm not going to go out of my way to write something that I don't think people will read. I mean, you want people to read what you're writing. There was a book this year, Emma on Fire, and it's actually, I think it's a really neat story and very different and not what people would expect from me about it. Young woman in an Eastern prep school who decides she's going to set herself on fire. And I kind of knew that. I suspected that it wasn't necessarily going to be commercial, but I thought it was a really, really useful thing to write about because a lot of young kids are sort of like, fuck, man, this is all messed up. And, you know, and somehow we have to do something to shake up the world to make things different. And so in that case in particular, I wrote something that I. Not that I didn't even want commercial means. I mean, I think it's a very readable book, but I thought. I didn't think. I was. I didn't think it would necessarily do very well.

C (20:05)

It did. It.

D (20:07)

No, it did. Okay. It did. Okay. It did. Okay.

C (20:11)

So you have spoken in this conversation about positive and negative disruptions and taking the negative. And people should know that one of the early loves of your life died early. And not that this was a positive thing, but what do you do? What do you take from it?

D (20:24)

But this was not a positive thing.

C (20:26)

No. But also in the book, you write about the difference between positive and negative disruptors, and you say negative disruptors favor resistance, often for resistance's sake. They introduce chaos and stubbornly adhere to outdated practices. That's true. But I wonder, don't you think that most negative disruptors think they're positive disruptors? That the. That the. It's. They don't tell themselves it's for chaos's sake. They tell themselves it's something like shaking up the system.

D (20:56)

Yeah, some are. Some are. And by the way, when I say that I'm. This is. In terms of normal circumstances, this isn't about, you know. Okay, there's some stuff that I think all of us would agree that are wrong with the world right now. And I think it can be someone who would be called a troublemaker. And I think it's necessary. So I think troublemakers are really useful in some circumstances. Not necessarily in terms of your team at NPR or whatever where they're just kind of getting in the way of things, but it doesn't quite fit into the book in terms of. Yes, there are some people that are, they're real troublemakers and it's really important that, that we make some trouble. It's really important. Some. I mean, obviously right now in Congress, I don't know what the hell is going on there, but I guess some people think that it's really useful to disrupt the system. I don't know if it is because I'm not sure what they think they're going to accomplish. But I guess what I'm saying are troublemakers are really useful sometimes.

C (22:01)

Sometimes. But since you have so much in your book about.

D (22:03)

This book is generally not about making trouble.

C (22:06)

Right. But it's about being a disruptor. And since you have so much in your book about discernment, I wonder if you have any guidelines for how to be discerning. Because I think about politics, John Lewis, the idea of good trouble, and of course in the context of the civil rights, that's true. But every Democratic politician, because John Lewis is deservedly an icon, will talk about good trouble and it becomes sort of a permission structure to make bad trouble. So this comes to my question, are there any rules or are there any ways that the individual can discern? Is what I'm really doing good trouble or is it just self justifying?

D (22:41)

Well, I do think people need to dig in more than they dig in. I mean people right now, I mean, people just are almost refusing to think. I, I get involved a lot with literacy, different reasons. But one of the things that I wish could get picked up in schools is something I call thinkeracy, which is just getting kids to think more. And every day in class challenge them to think, what are you going to do after school? I'll know. Well, let's see, you could play soccer, you could read a ball, you could rob a liquor store. So many possibilities. Just in that habit of getting past that first thought and also for a lot of kids, getting past that panic screen where there's nothing on the screen. Okay, I want you to write an essay. What do you want to write about? I don't know. I'll know. I don't know. Put anything on the screen. Squirrel. Okay, good. You could write about a Squirrel, just put something on the screen. Thinkeracy. Just getting people to think a little deeper, to think about themselves, to discern, to step back. And a lot of people, they're not in the habit. They haven't learned how to do it. They haven't been taught to do. I guess I was lucky growing up in that my grandparents in particular just forced me to think things through. Think it through. That's also a huge thing in terms of succeeding and failing. A lot of times people have an idea that's kind of interesting, but they don't think it through. Is this real? What are the obstacles? Is this really. Or is this going to be something that down the line, it's just going to be a mess. I mentioned literacy before. I work with the University of Florida on a program. The percentage of kids reading at grade level in the country is like 44, 45%, which is a disgrace. It's a disgrace because it doesn't have to be University of Florida. This isn't my system. They have a system that can get it up into the low 80s that will literally save thousands and thousands of lives. X number of kids will get through high school because of that. Just that in Florida, they've been using it. Now they're in. I think last year they were in about 20% of the counties. Florida, partly because of that system, their system, which I throw some money at, but it's not my system, partly because Florida is now number one in terms of black kids reading at grade level and number one in terms of Latino kids reading at grade level. This year I think it's in almost 60% of the counties. And I think Florida will lead the country in terms of kids reading at grade level. That's great. That's a great thing.

C (25:19)

Yeah. Well, there's. Have you followed the Mississippi miracle, which I think you're talking about a phonics.

D (25:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And well, phonics are. Phonics are a piece of this for.

C (25:28)

Sure, because there has been this huge debate where the debate should be settled. And it actually breaks my heart that so many states just have turned their back on the. What they call the science of reading. And it's very odd because the states that you might think would be more progressive or tell themselves that they're most progressive and they have Democratic governors. They're the states that haven't endorsed the science of reading. Then again, your state, Florida people, they get there.

D (25:56)

Even in Florida, it was initially went to the governor, who actually listened to this, to the pro originally. And I got in to see him with a couple of people for University of Florida. And he got it. And he was new at the time.

C (26:09)

DeSantis.

D (26:10)

DeSantis. And he just didn't realize how many people are gonna have their hands out for education money. And it becomes that kind of thing. Oh, but wait a minute. I want money for this. And on this county, we need money for this. And we. You know, and that's. I mean, the strength of democracy is. But the weakness is we get in our. At a certain point, you have to make decisions.

C (26:28)

Yeah, yeah. So what happens when a James Patterson book gets banned in a Florida school district? Can you call the governor and say, come on, you know me.

D (26:39)

I probably could. I don't think you do anything. Yeah, no. That's another piece of the craziness, though. It's like, I mean, seriously, Maximum Ride, which has been read by a lot of kids. It is the one book, right. When I go to colleges, the kids will say, you got me reading. Thank you so much. And it was. It's always the maximum ride stuff. And then it gets banned in a couple of counties, essentially, because one person goes in and says, this book is not appropriate for grade school kids. And they haven't read it, and they. It's like. And then it gets banned. I mean, it gets taken out of the school libraries, and it's just crazy. And that. Once again, getting into this. Positive and negative disruptions. There's a negative disruption, and it's. It just doesn't need to be. And it does. You know, I don't know. It's. This is the weirdest time. You know, Covid was. Was one of the weird. Probably the weirdest thing that happened in my lifetime. And what's going on now is. Is. Is Covid all over again.

C (27:39)

Yeah. So this is. Here comes the challenging part of the interview, and it's.

D (27:43)

Yes.

C (27:44)

First, I. I read the whole book, and I realized there are many parts of the book which will contradict what I'm about to say or at least add some nuance, which is. Sure, it does seem to me that the message of be a disruptor disrupt everything. That does play a bit into the societal narcissism that we're experiencing. The egotist who doesn't want to be the soldier who doesn't want to join the fight, but always has to lead the fight. Right. Doesn't even want to be a lieutenant.

D (28:14)

But that's not true about the book.

C (28:16)

No, I know. I know that because the book has it, isn't it? There is a fire metaphor with a few people who are tinder gatherers. So I'll let you say that. But then I want to.

D (28:25)

More than a few. More than a few. Yeah. Right.

C (28:28)

So you don't have. You could be the fire chief. You could be the. The.

D (28:32)

There's a lot. Yeah. I mean, that's a little simplistic, but, I mean. And the writing is there. There it is. And that's Patrick more than me. But, you know. But I think for a lot of people, they. I'm not. I've never been one. It has the toolkits and all that stuff, which a lot of white people find really useful, and I don't, because so much for me is instinct. But. But I'm sorry, but I interrupted where you were going with it. Go ahead.

C (28:55)

Well, one of the main characters in the book was a woman who traveled to Kolkata and she founded a charity organization called Godden's Born. But there was something about that that immediately struck me as the sympathetic Westerner who comes in and decides they're going to be able to change the world and in just a cursory amount, change.

D (29:16)

The world or just, you know, help something out. Yeah, right. Yeah. We get into that whole thing of the, you know, the messiahs and whatever, and. Yeah. And so should nobody do any good work?

C (29:28)

No, but my. My question is specifically in her case. I just. Through a cursory search, I read an article in a Danish publication that was pretty damning to her, and they did a. An investigation. There was not just misuse of funds, but she. They would have kids on camera doing testimonials, and she would tell the kids to say the lines more empathetically about how hungry they were. And then there was a fundraising effort around a hearing aid for a kid, and one of the workers in the organization said years later, that boy still had no hearing aid. And also. And I think quite damningly that the donations that this organization, Godins Borns, collects in Denmark, are illegal to use in India because they're not a certified charity. So my question is not to debate Godden's Born. I don't know how much you know about that. Well, let me stop there. Did you know all about.

D (30:25)

No, no, no. This is all new to me. And. And. Okay, I'm sure that. Well, let me put it this way. It's clear from what you're saying that there are problems. I don't know, because I haven't investigated and probably you haven't that deeply either.

C (30:39)

No, I read this one article.

D (30:40)

So clearly, some people are not Digging what happened there. I like the general idea of trying to help. You see something, you try to help. This always is a worry for me. Whenever you do anything that you've written something and something's going to come up and you go, oh, shit, I didn't know that. But that's really unfortunate. So if what you're saying is really. I'm sure parts of it are true, but if it's as bad as you say it is, that that's unfortunate and it's unfortunate that we, that we bought her story.

C (31:13)

Well, yeah. I don't know the full extent.

D (31:15)

Meaning believed her.

C (31:16)

Right.

D (31:16)

Yeah.

C (31:17)

I don't know if the total scam. I based this on what the Danish government investigated, but in terms of. Since you're not the government.

D (31:24)

Come on. No, no, no.

C (31:26)

They affirm some of this investigatory journalism. Yeah, yeah. But since your guy is coming out with nine books a year, did you go too fast? Should there have been more of a fact checking process?

D (31:37)

You do the best you can, you know. No, yeah, I, I don't. I mean, this doesn't invalidate the book because, because I'm not situation in there. I mean, I, you know the guy who wanted to help his brother with autism and starts car wash. Yeah. Maybe there's something that somebody could go, oh, and there's three kids who, you know, whatever the hell I, you pick an organization, npr, you know, in something, you could sit there and go, like, well, what about this thing that happened in Pensacola, blah, blah. You know, it doesn't invalidate stuff. So I think what you're bringing up is good. It's unfortunate. I'll check into it more now, obviously. Right.

C (32:13)

And there are other, and to be fair, there are many other examples that seem 100% on the up and up. The Muppeteer, Marlon Wayans, Damon Wayans.

D (32:23)

I think, I think most are all are on the up and up. Yeah. You know, who knows? I certainly, you know, and we had 50 we didn't put in here.

C (32:30)

Yeah.

D (32:31)

But you know, in terms of what we, you know, could you go farther? Could you go deeper? Yeah, you could just stop and not do anything because you spend your life, you know, researching. It seemed valid to us and it's pretty surprising that it isn't. But, you know, and I'm sure there's, there's truth to what you're saying.

C (32:47)

My question, whenever I talk to highly accomplished people who have advice for others, for instance, hall of Fame baseball players often are bad managers, how much do.

D (32:57)

You acknowledge I don't have advice for people, I just throw shit out there. And you figure it out.

C (33:01)

Well, there is checklists and there's diagrams and the word disruptor, the first letter. What's it called? An acrostic. Where it stands for disruption, insights, situation, results, use, plan, tell, execute, refine. Maybe that's. Maybe that's helpful to someone. But my question is, I think it.

D (33:17)

Is helpful for some people. It wouldn't be helpful to me.

C (33:19)

Right, because you're instinctive, as you said.

D (33:22)

That's kind of. Yeah, that's my. Yeah.

C (33:26)

But my consequence is, you know yourself, I don't know how much you want to acknowledge that you're in the top point zero one percent of some of these skills. So knowing that, how much can it really be translated?

D (33:41)

I don't know. I think it can. I think it can be. And look, you have books. We'll see. So far, the responses of people who have read it is very positive. That's kind of the best. Is it helping you? Do you think it's helpful? And it seems to be very positive. You get a book like Atomic Habits, and people seem to feel that it's a good thing. It did some good thing. Let them. I think that's a very simple idea. I think that's very useful to people. Not. Probably not to everybody in terms of the. But apparently in so many of these business books, and this is why I trust Patrick Lennon, they want. They want this. They need this to help them actually get through the day. To. To, as I said, this thing of, like, taking the next step and the next step and the next step. That's very hard for a lot of people.

C (34:35)

Right. And thinking things out beforehand and how will this end? These are useful skills, useful cognition skills that you talked about in the context of children. I'm 53.

D (34:44)

I still need to do that.

C (34:45)

The name of the book is Disrupt everything and win. Take control of your future. And its author is James Patterson, who, during this conversation, has possibly written another book. I don't know. Thank you so much.

D (34:58)

Yeah, well. Cause you can't see my hand, so it's moving along with the pencil. Thank you.

C (35:11)

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C (38:08)

And now the spiel. The other day Marco Rubio and the State Department His State Department Marco and State. They're a great boy band. Declared for international groups terrorists. Here's some of that coverage.

D (38:19)

The United States has announced it is.

B (38:21)

Declaring four groups based in Europe as foreign terrorist organizations. They include one group from Germany called Antifa Aust.

D (38:30)

The other groups are from Italy and Greece.

C (38:32)

That was from the German broadcaster dw. So you can see why they concentrate on Germany. Though, I gotta say, while Antifa here at home, I don't know, they range from the dangerous to cosplay. I am not against the specific idea of being anti fascist in Germany. Germany is like the farmer's market of fascism, right? It's very close to the source. So if you want to be anti fascist somewhere, maybe a good place to do it. But what of the Greek groups? What of the Italian groups? Well, I looked up one of the Italian groups and found out their name was and is the Informal Anarchist Federation. The Informal Anarchist Federation. I needed to know more and now so do you. The Informal Anarchist Federation Federation Anarchia Informal is a loose network of individuals and small temporary affinity groups based on personal relationships. It's nice. It's like the personal bank, right? They understand you and your particular needs. So why they're informal? I'll get to that in a second. What they do is they have mailed out some bombs. There was something called Operation Santa Claus because it took place between December and January of oh 3 and oh 4. They mailed out a bunch of letters, threats and bombs to EU representatives. And in Italy there was also some kablooey. Here's 14 year old coverage of that. Security has been tightened in Rome after two parcel bomb attacks on the Chilean and Swiss embassies. Two employees were injured in the explosions which took place less than three hours apart. A revolutionary group, the Informal Anarchist Federation, has claimed responsibility. The explosions come at a time of heightened tension in Italy following last week's violent student protests after a failed no confidence vote in Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. Wrong to bomb, right? To have no confidence in Berlusconi. So why are these anarchists so informal? Is it that they use the familiar to instead of lay when referring to others? Now, it's because they are aware that classic clandestine structures typical of Italian left wing organizations like the Red Brigades can be undermined by infiltrators. So if you're an informal organization. Hey, how you doing? Out to doing. You could deny knowing other people, not understand everyone's plans. Just in the moment when the terrorism is activated, that's when you become formal. And much of what I'm reading is from the Combating Terrorism center at West Point. They note that the FA I, the Informal Anarchists, the fai, they're also affiliated with A couple of groups I love the Cooperative of Handmade Fire and related items Cooperativa Artijana Fuko E Affinity and they also are known to associate with the 5C's cellula control, il Capital, Il car Cherry Su I Cartiere a su El Chale. I don't know what that means. I just like saying terrible, terrible Italian. One other thing I found out about our informal anarchists. They are affiliated with a Greek group, but not one of the Greek groups that was banned unless they rebranded. And it would be a shame if they did because this Greek group is the Conspiracy of Cells of Fire. I like any group with two of's in it. And when you just come out and say we are a conspiracy, I think it actually leads to more conspiracy theories. Well, if they're going to admit that, imagine how deep the conspiracy goes. I didn't learn much about the Conspiracy of Cells of Fire of Greece. I did find that there was an infamous member of the CCF who was known for taking out a bow and arrow during a demonstration against police in 2011 in Syntagma Square. A literal bow and arrow and firing bow and arrows at the police. And guess what happened to this bow and arrow hunter? He escaped from a Greek prison with perhaps only his archery skills to aid him. We do not know if he has made contact with his old affiliated group, the Informal Anarchist Federation. I assume their number is not listed. Even more so now that the US government is wise and has formally declared these informalists a terrorist organization. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the gist. Jeff Craig is our social media manager. Leah Yan is production coordinator. Kathleen Sykes helps me with the just list and Michelle Pesca makes the trains run on time but doesn't make the Verizon guy repair the Internet on time because really that's a job for everyone mentioned and maybe even James Patterson and all his collaborators improve. And thanks for listening.

E (43:43)

It.

D (44:11)

This podcast is sponsored by Gold Belly Shipping America's most iconic foods nationwide. Make this Thanksgiving one to remember with the original Turducken, the viral pie caken with decadent layers of cake and pie and more. Plus Black Friday is the perfect time to pre order unique gifts they'll rave about for years. Use promo code gift for 20% off your first order on goldbelly.com Gold Belly.

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