Brian Burrow (5:28)

Good morning.

Podcast Host (5:29)

So you talk about explosions, all these explosions, sort of press releases by explosion. How did bombs become a form of communication back then?

Brian Burrow (5:41)

It is stunning how many bombs went off during the 1970s that we've. We've pretty much forgotten thousands. It began in the late 1960s, really, with student protesters tossing impromptu Molotov cocktails toward ROTC buildings on myriad numbers of college campuses. And once the 70s started, the hardest core of those decided Molotov cocktails weren't enough, and they began building and detonating bombs.

Podcast Host (6:07)

Who got hurt?

Brian Burrow (6:09)

The first ones to get hurt happened to be members of the famous Weather Underground who weren't very good at initially building their bombs, and they managed to blow themselves up. Three of them died in an infamous explosion in New York's Greenwich village in early 1970. By and large, during the 1970s, 98% of the bombs that went off didn't hurt or kill anyone. They were mostly what you might call protest bombs that went off late at night. There were a number of exceptions, however. The single deadliest underground attack of the occurred at a Wall street restaurant in 1975, in which four people were killed.

Podcast Host (6:43)

By your estimation and your account, were these people more politically impassioned, people who let their passions take over and that expressed itself in violence, or were they violent people? Were they sociopaths who used politics as either an excuse or something to hang what would be otherwise violent impulses upon?

Brian Burrow (7:04)

I think the former probably explains more of these people than the latter. Certainly there were some people that you can find violence in their background, men who beat their girlfriends, that type of thing. But I think, by and large, you have to take the members of the American underground of the 1970s at their word, that they were doing it in an effort to change the government, who sincerely believed, as far fetched as it may seem today, that a second American revolution was actually imminent and that violence would speed the change.

Podcast Host (7:31)

It never fomented into a larger mass movement. Now, how much can we credit law enforcement and law enforcement fighting these acts of terror for that?

Brian Burrow (7:39)

Not very. I would say. U.S. law enforcement was spectacularly ineffective in its pursuit of these underground groups, beginning with the Weather Underground, the Black Liberation army, the Symbionese Liberation Army. By and large, the underground ran its course or went away by the early to mid-1980s because it was abundantly clear to just about everyone in it that in fact, this revolution that they all believed was imminent was not, in fact, coming. And those who kept on eventually were tracked down after many years by police, or they fell victim to illegal drugs or depression, or they simply just gave up.

Podcast Host (8:17)

Who'd you talk to today that was members of those movements then?

Brian Burrow (8:20)

Oh, well, one of the things that's most notable about the book is that I think only now, 30 and 40 years after all this happened, are many of these people willing to talk about it. Not just because statutes of limitations have expired, but because they're in their 60s and 70s, and they're at ages where they want to encounter or make peace with their legacy. I was fortunate enough to talk with of almost all these groups from the Weather Underground's bomb guru, the young man who actually came forward for this book and acknowledged he made all their bombs. He went on never having been prosecuted, went on to a long career as a New York City teacher. I talked to people like Sekou Odinga, who famously broke out Assata Shakur, the BLA member who's now still in Cuba. And he talks about breaking her out of a state prison with the help of a.357 Magnum shoved into his belt and a stick of dynamite.

Podcast Host (9:15)

The teacher. The teacher. That's surprising. That's shocking.

Brian Burrow (9:19)

It's not. If you look at, say, the 12 most senior and longest live members of the Weather underground, I'd say 2/3 of them went on to careers in higher education. Most of them became affiliated with universities, whether Bernadine Dorn at Northwestern, Bill Ayers at a University of Illinois campus, or in this case, the bomb guru's name was Ron Flegelman, and he just happened to go on to teach special ed kids in Bensonhurst for 25 years.

Podcast Host (9:46)

You know, when we compare the attitudes towards these bombers, and they weren't. I mean, I guess to some they were romantic figures. They were prosecuted. They were, you know, outlaws for a reason. But when you compare that to the radical Muslim terrorists of today, it was totally different to what do you describe the vast chasm of difference in the attitudes between these two types of terrorists?

Brian Burrow (10:12)

9 11. I think for many, many years, until 2001, we didn't take this type of activity seriously as a threat to American society. And with 9 11, with, you know, 3,800 people killed, suddenly bombs lost their romance, as I think they'd lost them years, years before. But looking back now, the hardest challenge for someone like me is to explain to people today how bombings could have been seen as essentially semi legitimate means of public protest. You know, then, and people just did not see this as the government saw it as a risk, certainly the Nixon administration, but ordinary men and women on the. On the street. My favorite reaction of all was the woman interviewed by the New York Post after a bombing in 1977 in New York City. And her comment was, another bombing. Who is it this time?

Podcast Host (11:04)

It was Just seen as like the urban landscape. I mean, things were a bummer in the 70s and it was just part of this basket. Like, look, there's urban decay. There are these, you know, large pockets of crime. We got a huge debt problem. Ford to city, drop dead. Bombing at Francis Tavern. It was just part of a basket of, you know, generally terrible things going on. Skyjackings, Throw that in there too.

Brian Burrow (11:25)

Exactly right. And frankly, on a list of an ordinary American's fears or concerns during the 1970s, radical bombings would have, you know, hardly made the top 10. Behind the fact that New York is going out of business and cocaine and crime and all these other things, it was sometimes easy to overlook all that was actually going on. I think that's one reason why as a populace, we've largely forgotten extent of the violence.

Podcast Host (11:49)

Yeah, and you know what? I think that was logical too. I think that is the right ranking of them. The bombings didn't hurt as many people as some of these other ills.

Brian Burrow (11:58)

No, by and large, if you lived in New York, you were totally aware that Weather Underground and the FALN and some of these groups were bombing things. But the fact is, mugging people in Central park was killing a lot more people than radical bombing. So I think that that's why it became almost accepted. It's amazing when you go back and you read the articles about these individual bomb, unless someone was killed, there is almost never any expression of outrage. It's very much like that woman told the Post. Eh, another bombing. You know, who is it this time?

Podcast Host (12:29)

Having written this book, when people say today, where's the outrage? Or we're surprised there's not more radicalism in America, what's your explanation for that?

Brian Burrow (12:39)

I am too. Given the 60s and 70s and the incredible political passions that seem almost unfathomable today, you know, I mean, it's hard to imagine people today really resorting to, you know, assassinating police, bombing the pentagon, bombing the U.S. capitol. And today you talk to people and they have those passions, but there is a belief somehow that you can work within the system. And who's to say that that's not right? But you also hear voices, especially of these older radicals who basically, I've heard them say, boy, the left today, it's just got no balls.

Podcast Host (13:12)

Yeah, but maybe there's something to be said for, you know, we, we decry or mock the idea of Internet activism or, you know, you click like, and all of a sudden you've created a political protest. But maybe there's something to be said with just the ease of communication, at least acting as an escape valve, at least giving people the idea that there's something to be done and they don't have to resort to these ends.

Brian Burrow (13:36)

I couldn't agree more with you, because while it's easy to make fun of Twitter activism, the fact is I've talked to Ray Levasseur, who ran one of these underground groups out of the state of Maine for nine years. He told me, look, I set off bombs to get people to read the stuff that I'd written, and now I go online and just tap, tap, tap, and thousands of people read it with nothing, you know, with no problem at all. The fact is, if you look back at the 1970s era underground, yes, it's possible if you're on the left, to admire the passion and the commitment of these people. But it's also inarguable that they launched a kind of war on America and they lost. And it's very difficult to look back at the legacy of their activities, of these bombings and assassinations, and find anything that led to any type of constructive change in the American condition. What it led to, by and large, was bomb sniffing dogs and metal detectors and increased security at public buildings. That's the legacy of the violence that we experienced in the 1970s.

Podcast Host (14:39)

Brian Burrow is the author of Days of Rage, about this period that wasn't so far away yet can scarcely be believed. Thank you, Brian.

Brian Burrow (14:46)

Thank you.

Podcast Host (14:47)

Foreign let's map out this week's amazing destinations and travel tips.

Brian Burrow (14:55)

Honestly Will, I didn't plan any trips, but I did switch to T Mobile with their new Family Freedom offer.

Podcast Host (15:02)

That's not the itinerary we're following.

Brian Burrow (15:05)

Well, I'm departing from AT&T and embarking on a new journey with T Mobile. They paid off my family's four phones up to $3200 and gave us four new phones on the house.

Podcast Host (15:18)

Bon voyage.

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Podcast Host (16:19)

And now the spiel. It's been a while since I monitored and brought to you a full Oval Office session with the media, and yesterday was a great one. Donald Trump was there to announce that troops would be going into Memphis. The one here in America, not the one in Egypt. He was surrounded by staffers from Pam Bondi who touted the D.C. experiment not just as a success, but as over.

Progressive Insurance Advertiser (16:41)

And DC Is safe again.

Podcast Host (16:42)

Yeah, we're done here. And then there was Cash Patel, director of the FBI, noting that Donald Trump. Trump famously just wants to do good in the world and in no way wants to attach his name to any initiatives for, say, egotistical reasons.

Brian Burrow (16:57)

Launching us early, launching us quietly, not.

Podcast Host (16:59)

Looking for the credit.

Brian Burrow (17:00)

Mr. President, we greatly appreciate your support.

Podcast Host (17:02)

Trump's purpose was to rip apart the leaders of cities and Democratic states who don't want him bringing in the National Guard, and also to rip up a little bit of the Constitution, the Posse Comitatus act of 1870 federal law, certainly the sentiment behind keeping federal forces out of the business of local policing. Here he talked about the type of specific crime in Memphis that his forces will not countenance.

Donald Trump (quoted) (17:27)

Last month, a vicious thug carjacked an elderly woman parked at the movie theater, dragged her out of the car and body slammed her into the pavement where she is still trying to recover. Probably won't be successful.

Podcast Host (17:42)

I enjoyed the way he got bored with the prepared text as he does. And rift. Oh, she's not going to be good. Turns out that the actual reports from Memphis say she was hurt, but now she's doing fine. I wonder what effect on the healing process it is to hear the President speculate that you shan't recover, but speculate he did. Such as when it came to flag burning. He speculated that there could be a non first Amendment rationale for banning flag burning. Like the fact that burning flags angers people, whereas you burn other things and no one cares.

Donald Trump (quoted) (18:15)

And you know, you could burn other things. If people just sit there, they fall asleep.

Podcast Host (18:19)

You know why? Sleepy flame, low energy fire. But you know what doesn't make people fall asleep? Entrancing hardware.

Donald Trump (quoted) (18:27)

And then they whip out a hammer. And it's a beautiful hammer. Really, it's nice. You know, this is not a hammer. Somebody happens up. These are serious hammers. Beautiful, brand new hammers.

Podcast Host (18:39)

If he had a hammer, he'd hammer in the morning. Who'd he hammer? Disrespectful expectorating protesters. Trump has a new initiative when it comes to federal forces being spat at.

Donald Trump (quoted) (18:50)

And I say when they spit, you hit it.

Podcast Host (18:52)

Must be a good policy. It rhymes. I'll try one. You know, an act of Congress forbade us from violating posse comitatus. So if you favor law and order, you know this rule about troops inside the border. I gotta admit, his is punchier. All right, that's it for the Saturday show. Cory Wara produces the gist and so many people do other things. But we like to keep it tight on Saturday. So thanks, Corey and I'll see you Monday.

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