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- [00:00]
John Jay Lennon
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Mike Pesca
It's Wednesday, Nov. 12, 2025, from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca. You ever hear, well, it might make sense even if Donald Trump says it? Of course you hear that. I think that. Penny straws, 20 living hostages. These all make sense. Even just today, he was getting into a spat with Laura Ingraham. Okay. On that. I don't know who I'm going to naturally defer to, but he made more sense than her. He was talking about H1B visas. So, you know, might make sense despite or coincidentally with the agreement of Donald Trump, some other people. It's even a harder stretch. Makes sense even though Marjorie Taylor Greene says it. I don't know. I don't know how many times I've said that to myself. I'm sure Marjorie Taylor Greene has once told someone, don't swim 15 minutes after eating. So, yeah, that makes sense. But what about when Lauren Boebert says it? I met Lauren Boebert very short in real life, looking for a fight. Yeah, not a lot makes sense even though she says it. And then what about the multiplier effect of Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene? Let's throw in Nancy Mace, for example. Late Nancy Mace. Not when she came to Congress and seemed normal. And what about if those are the only three Republicans saying it, along with constant Republican apostate Thomas Massie. You have a coalition of those four, and you're asking me if it makes sense. And there are the four saying it. Ooh, this is hard. But let me read this news item to you. The Trump administration was planning to meet about an effort in the U.S. house to force a vote on releasing Justice Department case files related to Jeffrey Epstein. On Capitol Hill, three Republican House members, Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace have signed on to an effort from Rep. Thomas Massie and also Ro Khanna, who's a California Democrat, to force a vote on the release of the files on the House floor. This is called the discharge petition. All the Democrats want it. Ro Khanna is one of the Democrats. Thomas Massie, he's always going against the Republicans. But then you get the coalition of Mace, Boebert and mtg. And yet I think it might make sense. I. I don't know. I don't want these Epstein files kept under wraps forever. I have a lot of thoughts about the Epstein files and how we're so much more obsessed with them than, I don't know, bombing our. What. What are we up to? 1920 vessels off the coast of Venezuela one seems a lot more likely to be at least a misapplication of the US justice system. But yes, a lot of momentum for the Epstein files. And even if I find myself in agreement with the coalition and disreputable law firm of Bobert, Taylor, Green and Mace, even though they say it, let's get those Epstein files out there on the show today. Well, I've got a full show interview and it's one of the best interviews I've done. Not I've done, but one of the best and most interesting people I've talked to in a long, long time. I've been telling people about this for a while. Hey, I just interviewed this guy named John J. Lennon. He right now and where I talk to him is Sing Sing, the Ossining Correctional Facility where he's been for more than two decades after committing a murder which he cops to. But he's also become an extremely accomplished and thoughtful author. And now John Jay Lennon is out with a book called the Tragedy of True Crime for Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us Us. He is one of them. Like I said, this was a great interview and I'm pleased that his the warden allowed it. I'm pleased that the publisher set it up and I'm pleased that he was able to join me and to reflect so thoughtfully on his subjects and himself. John Jay Lennon up next. Life's a little crazy lately and members of my family definitely need to unwind. This is not the throwing under the bus. This is about relieving aches and discomfort. 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We weighing them down. And every piece is tested on job sites with trade pros. The trade could be podcaster or it could be, you know, actual construction worker or logger. I wear True Work. I don't know, maybe a little too much given how often I'm clearing brush, which is not much. But it's just a testament to the fact that this stuff really and truly does work. And it also looks damn good. Upgrade your day with workwear built like it matters and get 15% off your first order@True Work.com with the code, the gist. That's spelling's important on this one. T R U E w e r k.com and use the code, the gist. John Jay Lennon is younger than me, but so many details from his life come from, at least to my eye and ear. An earlier time, he was placed in a home for foundlings. Yes, they still had them. He associated with the Westies, that notorious gang on the west side of Hell's Kitchen, which really was Hell's Kitchen when he was, well, doing his misdeeds and performing his crimes. And then he did kill a man. He went to jail. He went to prison. There was a time of introspection and then a time of journalism. He became just that, a journalist, published in the Atlantic, published in Esquire. And now John Jay Lennon is out with a book called the Tragedy of True Crime for Guilty Men and the stories that define us. Hi, John. Welcome to the Gist.
- [07:14]
John Jay Lennon
Hey, thanks for having me, Mike.
- [07:16]
Mike Pesca
So two small words in the title that are really important once you read the book. And they are guilty and us. So let's. Let's first talk about guilty. You write in the book that so much of true crime is or rests on the idea of innocence. And as I take your critique, not only do you admit to not being innocent, you think that the idea of innocence. Well, you tell me in your words, it gets in the way of really understanding what's going on with people in prison.
- [07:49]
John Jay Lennon
Well, there's a couple of things I think. I think activists and criminal justice reform folks, I mean, they love the truth, they love the innocent man. Right? Because it fits the story formula so well. Right. And, you know, what's this? What's the. What's the story? Right? John Franklin says, the sympathetic character that overcomes a complicated situation. I mean, boom, you got that with the innocent man. And prison is the antagonist and blah, blah, blah. I think with the guilty man, it's becomes sort of you know, a bit more difficult. And look, I write about guilty men because I'm guilty myself and I'm a first person journalist and I hook into this, you know, this sort of. I, you know, embrace that sort of felt lifestyle. And when I tell narratives about men, I, they're usually. I can relate to the most when they're guilty. There's so much, too much gray area. And the innocent man, you know, you never know if he's lying and it becomes more complicated. So I stay away from that.
- [08:51]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. I also think if true crime is a genre, it's really two different genres. If we're talking about, and you write about serial and Adnan. Adnan said, if we're talking about a guy who's in jail, the very rare person who's in jail that really didn't do the crime. That's a story about truth and criminal justice. And it's not really so much about understanding the wrong is embodied in the main character. But if we're talking about the true crime that actually describes the vast majority of people in prison, it's a, it's a very different genre. Right. It's about either forgiveness or if you want to be simple about it. And this is a word you have unfair associations with about evil.
- [09:36]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I think most of the true crime out there that is problematic is just this excavating. I mean, excavating crimes like way after they've been committed years later. And that's what we watch a lot because, you know, the court records are really accessible at that point. You can sort of solicit the person in prison to potentially be involved. There's a lot of like, exploitation of the whole sort of genre. A lot of schmoozing, a lot of, you know, on the producers part, you know, come tell your story and then, and then there's arrogance too. Like, well, we're gonna tell it anyway. It's a lot like that whole sort of industry and it's a little like.
- [10:25]
Mike Pesca
The criminal justice system itself. Right. It's very manipulative. They hold the cards. They could say you could cooperate and help yourself out, but if not, it's gonna be worse for you.
- [10:35]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah, I mean, I hadn't looked at that parallel, but yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, there's, there's, there's, you know, you could compare and contrast, you know, punishment in America. You know, I look to my left, I look to my right and I see you know, Son of Sam with 25 years to life. I have 28 years to life. I see. You know, Sammy the bull killed 30 people. He's out, has his own podcast like you. So justice is arbitrary in America.
- [10:59]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, yeah. I mean, he has his own podcast like me. There are a few differences, and one is that I guess his is more popular and the others is I've killed less people. Ye.
- [11:08]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah.
- [11:09]
Mike Pesca
Right. Yeah. So the reason I said that you have this association with the book starts with where you were placed in the middle of the true crime genre. Chris Cuomo had a show that was called Inside Evil and you were going to be on it. And you said, why would I want to be on a show called Inside Evil that is calling me evil? The producer says, oh, no, no, we're changing the title. And listener. They did not change the title. But you're account of being on that show and what the show, how the show portrayed your crime. And then I went and I watched the episode of the show and we'll play part of the trailer there. You know, it was ike. It was a very exploitative experience, as you write, but it was also a. From what I gather, in some ways you said that Cuomo maybe did a better job than others could have, but it must have also made you feel powerless once more, just like being in prison.
- [12:11]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that observation. You know, I had, I had, I'd like to think, you know, worked up a pretty, some, some pretty cool clips for above in the joint. You know, in 2018, I was, you know, I written about, you know, some really. I'd like to think there are important issues about mental health in prison and, you know, Esquire and New York Magazine. New York magazine, and had reached out to CNN to sort of. Because I knew somebody there to sort of like talk about, you know, a very important issue. You know, like a lot of print journalists do, they go, they solicit, they go on TV programs. But yeah, they had sent that show at me. And then when I came. And then, and then there was the shenanigans with the bait switch where they came up. And then when I. And then, you know, it was a couple trips. They come up, they schmooze, and then Chris Cuomo comes up to weeks later. And yeah, there was, it was that really. It was the moment of. I got there, I saw that there came to the place where in the prison where we were doing the interviewing. I. I saw like, you know, it was like. I just felt like. My friend told me friend he was a clerk. And he, you know, they were sort of like putting me on ice in a different room. And he was like, no, the superintendent. The superintendent told me it was inside Evil. I was like, no, no, they, no, they said it's a different series about redemption. She's like, bro. And I look across the room and I see Chris Cuomo walking down. The whole room is, you know, where I'm going to be taping is wrapped in the O's and everything. I'm like, I felt like it was a setup. Like they were all laughing at me. Like, this guy thinks he's a journalist. We're going to show him. We show the world who he really is. And I was just, it was, it was, you know, I don't know, it was tough. You can't really like sort of like give your back to the guy. Think about, you think about a lot of different things. And you know, I did, when I was in that moment, I didn't want to sort of give my back to the guy. This guy's the brother, the governor. You think about, you know, many things.
- [14:07]
Mike Pesca
I want to emphasize that point at the time. Andrew Cuomo's governor, he's the one guy who could commute your sentence. So that's important. And you thought about that?
- [14:16]
John Jay Lennon
Of course you do. You know, I mean, like, look, I mean, you think about a lot of things. That's certainly one of the things I think about. You know, like, look, I never used, I never saw like writing as like a path to freedom, right? But I did, I did think, I did think like, you know, like could be doing a lot worse, like you know, in here. And I did think people would respect it. Right? And you know, for me, writing was like, about like identity. You know, I really, you know, I really didn't like the label murder. Even though, like the sort of context of the way in which, you know, very lifestyle sort of oriented, you know, murder that, you know, when I first came to prison, you know, we live in this upside down kingdom in the subculture. So, you know, certain crimes are sort of more respected than others. Wrap your head around that. But I think the audience can, though. I think the audience can. And you know, we, we sort of get self righteous. We're like, oh yeah, I'm in here for like some, you know, knock around guys stuff and these other people, you know, raping women and doing this to kids, you get, you get, you get all distorted with that. But eventually I kind of like stopped thinking like that when I got my act together. And that was a process. And, you know, I really embrace the identity of being a journalist, and I built relationships with colleagues out there. And, you know, so. Yeah, yeah.
- [15:33]
Mike Pesca
So I want to ask you one question, then come back to how the Cuomo piece was presented. What do you mean by a light? I know what you mean because I read the book, but tell the audience what you mean by a lifestyle. Murder.
- [15:43]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah. I was deeply immersed in the drug dealing lifestyle in Brooklyn. I was in my early 20s. I've been pretty much, as you mentioned, I grew up in Hell's Kitchen. I was very enamored by these gangsters. You know, I didn't have a father. I was, you know, that whole sob story, and I was just very attracted to that lifestyle. And I went all in, you know, selling drugs and all the trappings of a drug dealer, and I'm carrying guns and eventually, you know, the lifestyle, you know, you're often. You often. You know, there's. There's betrayals, there's money, there's this. That those are the external sort of motivations. And so, you know, sometimes you kill the people closest to you or you get killed by the ones closest to you. It's. It's. So, you know, I had. I had, you know, shot and killed my friend, who was a former friend at the time. And, you know, you don't really know how close kind of friends you have in that lifestyle. But I certainly wasn't him, obviously, and I killed him and I got away with it. And eventually I was convicted and sent away. But the context of what I'm trying to say is like, that it was very like. I think if society looks at it, they're like, well, yeah, we understand what these people do in that life. And that's kind of like expected for him not to diminish that. And I was just saying when you go to prison, there is like a sort of pecking order and a social stratification.
- [17:06]
Mike Pesca
And so yours is the highest, or like hitman and mafia guys even higher. I understand who the lowest would be someone who picks on or abuses children or rapes women you mentioned. But who's the highest in the pecking order? Who gets the most respect for the kind of crimes they committed?
- [17:21]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah, guys like that. Guys that are like bonafide, you know, connected guys. And, you know, they got the whole. All the mannerisms going on. You know, they're playing the whole role, I suppose. They're not playing it. Sometimes they actually are it.
- [17:35]
Mike Pesca
You know, you also say you meet these guys who were either literally your Heroes or were the epitome of the tough guy from the west side. And you realize with at least one of them, it's all an act.
- [17:49]
John Jay Lennon
It is. I think it gets old quick, you know, for me, it did. You know, I was just like. I mean, I just say, look, I don't want to talk about, like, my, My, you know, in life. So, I mean, we're all. I think. I think for me, for me, I just. I knew that there could be something more, something different. And I knew I had like, totally my life up, you know, and. And not to mention, I took another man's life and I done. I left, you know, a lot of. A lot of. A lot of harm in my wake. But I still. It was probably delusional. I still had know, I was still, like, kind of ambitious, like, you know, so, you know, when I. In Attica, like, I think my first couple of years, I was pretty, you know, looking to escape. I was doing drugs. I was on drugs, and I was doing the things that, you know, perpetuated my lifestyle. And I think the turn for me was when I got hit up pretty bad in the yard. I got stabbed six times, got punctured. It was. It was a guy I knew from the neighborhood, a friend of the. Of the man I killed. And a little. I don't use the name of the man I killed because.
- [19:02]
Mike Pesca
Right, you call him. You call him E. And that is based on the request of his sister, which is, I think, sensitive. But she even goes further with her request, which is she doesn't want you to get any credit as a journalist. And that is, I think, what the tone of the Cuomo piece was, that it didn't just say. It could have very easily said, here's this guy, John Jay Lennon, and he did this horrible thing. And maybe if you even want to think he was a horrible person. And they do their lurid true crime stuff where they do the reenactments and you're like, oh, my God, how horrible? And it was horrible in a case 47 in the passenger seat of a car. All of this. But they could have said, and now this is where he is. He's a journalist. He's maybe trying to do something good. But I thought the tone of the piece was more asking the audience to question the sincerity or value of the journalism, to try to. I mean, they took the. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. You could tell me about what you thought of that.
- [19:57]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah, no, it's. I mean, you're a storyteller. You pick up. I think it's like. That's what was really difficult about it. Like, for me, it was just like, it was 18 years after I committed, you know, the murder and, you know, the average time somebody serves in American prison. 18.
- [20:14]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [20:14]
John Jay Lennon
So. So the. Right. So. So, I mean, in New York, we felt we served a bit longer because, I mean, that's a whole other story. Liberal state, but they hold you for a long time in New York. But. But I digress. But. But ultimately, yes, I appreciate how you. How you sort of. Sort of, like, you know, observe that. And that's through a storyteller's lens. Right? You're really seeing, like, what they're doing, and they're leaning into this, like, conflict that is just, like, gross. And it's pitting us up again. Like, pitting us up against each other. Like, when I'm talking to. To Chris Cuomo, it's a very. Just, like, loose environment. And he's. Look, he's. He's a great interviewer, and, you know, but that's going to get edited, and that's going to be juxtaposed next to, you know, the sister of the man I killed, which is a very somber sort of interview, because she's devastated. Right. That was like. That was her best friend, her brother, and she will never forgive him. And, you know, I get it, but I didn't know, like. But that's. But that's what's going on. And, you know, sort of watching it with a story like a storyteller's lens, I was like, oh. And I was just. And that's when I really said, I have to. I have to write to this. Like, I. This is when I knew this would be my beat. I was like, this is so bad.
- [21:36]
Mike Pesca
Oh, so being the subject of that questionable piece of journalism really inspired you to be the journalist you are?
- [21:45]
John Jay Lennon
No, no, not the journalist I am. I was the journalist I was before they came and questioned it. But I was already on that beat. I mean. Right, right.
- [21:52]
Mike Pesca
That was central. Right.
- [21:55]
John Jay Lennon
Well, it was central to me sort of pivoting. Yeah, right. To this. To criticism. If you sort of chart my career after that, I start writing for the New York Review of. And with these wonderful editors, I really start sort of, like, coming to terms with my criticism. Peddling Darkness. I critique, you know, one of the leading, you know, you know, true crime writers in America, Sarah Wyman, you know, but within. Within that criticism, and I do several other pieces of criticism while I'm, you know, sort of writing the book. So the criticism helps me understand the idea or the beef I have with true crime. But the book is a narrative driven story of me saying, wait, I can do this better than you guys. Fuller stories. And I could tell the crime and punishment part, which you know nothing about because you don't have the access. It's all crime, crime, crime. But I can tell you what the punishment looks like because all you're getting is when you're. When you're snoozing off to Dateline at night, all you're getting is half the story. You're not getting the punishment part because you don't have access to it. I do, but that's why I wrote it. Right.
- [23:03]
Mike Pesca
Okay, so now I get it. I mean, I got. It was good not even knowing the motivation, just hearing their stories and hearing the stories of the other men that you chronicle from your perspective or what you bring to it. But now I'm seeing how it's more of this fully realized project. But I do have questions about the other men. Did you know there's a lot of murderers?
- [23:26]
John Jay Lennon
But it's also. I just like 1, 1, 1. One last thing to put on that. I knew I could bring something to the table that was different than your traditional true crime narrator. Chris Cuomo grew up in the governor's mansion. He probably shouldn't be doing these, like, shows, like, just as a matter of, like, you know what I mean? Agency as a narrative. You know, sort of like journalist. I know he's a TV guy, but the optics of it are kind of gross, right?
- [23:52]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [23:53]
John Jay Lennon
Even though it's so smoothie and smarmy and it's just like, dude, you're looking down. I get you trying to give me my props for the. For the. But what about all the other, like, story you did, like, three. Three epic three series of Inside Theory of Inside Evil on hlm, the sister station to cnn. And I imagine he wasn't like, guys, I want to do that show. I imagine it was part of his contract, to be fair to him. But. But the optics of that. I knew I could do something different with the men around me, and I did the opposite. I try to put myself beneath my characters who also kill. And that's a literary tactic, and that's something obviously he can't do. Probably can't do it on many levels, but he certainly can't do it because of the regrettable agency. I have question if he could probably do it on a storytelling level too, but. But yeah, just. I just wanted to add that.
- [24:45]
Mike Pesca
Well, what do you mean beneath?
- [24:46]
John Jay Lennon
Well, I Mean beneath like, you know, men I write about also killed. And we'll talk about these men. Michael Shane Hale, Milton E. Jones and Robert Chambers. These are all the men I write about, but they all committed murders. But I use my own crime that I committed and I put. And I acknowledge throughout the book that I'm kind of more culpable than these guys at many stages look like I'll slide in there and say, especially with Michael Shanahan. Right?
- [25:17]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, this was, this was a guy who was used. Who was, who was. He's gay. He was sexually abused and raped and what a horrible, horrible life where you had a tough life.
- [25:30]
John Jay Lennon
And he was who Brooklyn decided to execute to pursue the death penalty against first. Right. In the mid-90s when we had the 3 extent of reintroducing the death penalty in New York State again. But I'll let you set it up. But you know, I mean in terms of just like introing them a little bit. But that's what you want to do.
- [25:49]
Mike Pesca
Well, yeah, I was going to say that you had different people to choose from and you chose them. Why Robert Chambers, I understand he'd be. That was fascinating. I got a different side of the quote unquote preppy murderer. I hadn't really remembered the stories of the other two. Although with Jones actually after reading it I'm like, oh yeah, that, that triggered some memories of me reading about his story. But was the main reason that you had many different murderers to choose from, but these were the ones that you could. Well, they were interesting. Their arcs took different kind of wending paths. But also you, you thought of them as even more sympathetic than you thought.
- [26:38]
John Jay Lennon
Of yourself at times. But I mean, I would say I think Shane is more sympathetic than me, than everybody. But I called Michael Shane Hale. Shane was by his middle. But I guess when I pitched book, I already had Robert Chambers in mind. He's kind of like used as a draw, right. You know, you all, you all come for him because, you know, he's like the, he's the typical true crime character. Right. Good looking white guy, was a, you know, beautiful young girl with her whole life ahead of her. And it's just, you know, and that's why they sort of, you know, sort of like latched on to that in the 80s. But what, what I was able to do was sort of like show you what that punishment looks like and as you say, the other side. But it was also a draw for these other two men, you know, that you're not going to see like Dateline is not going to show, you know, a gay man killing a lover's not going to his lover. They was not going to show a black kid killing two priests. The optics of that are just, like, awful. Like. So I wanted to sort of, like, pick these characters because these are shows, these are guys that are cases that you may not sort of investigate. Thank you for using Securus. The caller has hung up. Thank you for using Securus. Goodbye.
- [27:53]
Mike Pesca
We'll be back with more of John J. Lennon from the Ossining Correctional Facility right after this. I've been using Cove Pure water purification, and it's great. There's no installation. It tastes good. And I'm thinking about giving it to my parents because they're always drinking bottled water, which can be fine, but it's inconvenient and not good for the environment. And you've got to, of course, recycle it. Not with COVID Pure. You just fill it up right from the tap and you put it into the unit. And what you can get is purer than, say, boiling water. And you could get hot water, you could get cold water. I like the cold water. But, you know, my mom, she enjoys a cup of tea. And my dad, he enjoys a decaf coffee. And they have a tea tea kettle that. And this is more about the tea kettle than Cove Pure. It's metallic on the top, so when you try to open the latch on the tea kettle, you're engaging with a piece of metal that was just on a stove and burns ensue. Not with COVID Pure. Cove Pure also has this. My dad's gonna like this because he's very empirically. Drink has the number right there on the front. So TDS is the total dissolved solids. And there's, I don't know, 500 in the water that we have. And after going through Cove Pure, it's down to nine, sometimes five. This is what makes the water of COVID Pure taste so good. So pure. But it's not just the taste. You know, what's in your water could be here in New York, we have pretty good drinking water, but I've been to places where you just don't drink the water. And cove pure removes 99.9% of contaminants. We're talking PFAS and pharmaceuticals, fluoride, lead, arsenic. It is the purest water you could get. So if you're looking for a gift that's good for your loved ones and one that they will actually use, I highly recommend Cove Pure. And because I partner with them, they're giving you a special $250 holiday discount with my link covpure.com the gist that's C O V E P-U-R-E.com the gist to get 250 off covepure.com the gist hurry before the sale ends. Introducing Family Freedom from T Mobile. We'll pay off four phones up to three 200 and give you four free phones all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com familyfreedom.
- [30:26]
John Jay Lennon
Up to 800.
- [30:27]
Mike Pesca
Per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phone via 24 for monthly bill credits with finance agreement. Example Apple iPhone 16128 gigs $829.99 eligible trade in example iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel Contact Us we're back with John J. Lennon. He is the author of the Tragedy of True Crime, Four Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us. Let's pick up the conversation from where it left off. Robert Chambers got a lot of attention. Shane and Jones did not. You got attention after being in this true well before your journalism, but also being in this true crime segment from the Chris Cuomo show and you write about how in prison and jails like Rikers, everyone, all the prisoners are very attuned to the genre. And would you say in general just being featured on these shows gives the prisoners what if they are credibility, notoriety? Does it put a target on them? What's the effect of being one of these subjects? Who people know?
- [31:38]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah, I mean that's a good question. I say it depends. Depends on what kind of crime. I think if it's like one of these, like these dudes that are in here for killing their wives. I mean you see them on there on, on like the Dateline episodes a lot. I don't know if that's giving them more credibility. I actually think it's, it's like you know, kind of head shaking to a lot of guys that, that watch it. I think it's a little different with, with you know, if it's like like take say a true crime, I mean say the episode about me for example. While I did not appreciate it because it spent a lot of the time, you know, sort of reenacting the crime and like showing that, you know, I looked up to these sort of like organized crime figures whether be the Westies and you know, sort of showed the earlier stages of the early 90s. It did show that I was into like this street Life kind of heavy and you know, so some guys were like, you know, you're a wild guy out there. And, and then, and then they would say like the way they did. I mean, they was, they traumatized it a lot. So, like, in here, it wasn't like it hurt me in here as much as it would hurt me out there. Like, I remember a knock around guy told me, he's like, that ain't gonna help you the way they, they framed it. Like you, I mean, they got you coming off as, you know, looking like a little bit like a nut. Like, you know, you were, you're a wild guy, you know, and it was just like, so while it was accepted in here, you know, obviously it's not furthering sort of like insight and into like, you know, what people on the outside would respect as rehabilitation and insight, as you said, they juxtapose it to, to like, is, is this writing game? Is he manipulative? Hey, man, I'm trying to get a life. Trying to get a life in prison. I was a lowlife when I came to prison. I'm trying to like, like, get up and like, find meaning in my life and Attica. How about that? I'm just trying to get a life. Everyone's like worrying about freedom and trying to get out. I'm, I'm owning my, on the page. Like, I have a life when I get out. So that's what I'm trying to do.
- [33:42]
Mike Pesca
You write about how a lot of the prisoners know your work and say, you know, we all pass the Esquire article around or whatever. Do you have, do you think among most prisoners do you have some renown, notoriety, they at least respect and know your work.
- [33:57]
John Jay Lennon
I wouldn't use the word renowned. I would say, I would say dudes know, I'm the dude that writes. And, and so, you know, you have fans, you have some haters, and, and you know, I think some pieces they like better than others. You know, if you, if you publish a piece in Men's Health, which I have, you know, it's, it's kind of cool, you know, in Sports Illustrated, I mean, but I, sometimes I'll publish pieces and guys will be like critiquing you, like, you know, for like revealing too much. Like, if they don't know we're fucking betting in prison. Like, like I wrote a piece in Sports Illustrated about like, you know, bookies and betting in prison, which by the way, all the bookies were down for. Like, if you go to, if you go to a bookie in Prison. And you're like, yo, I got. I got greenlit to write this piece for Sports Illustrated, the Super bowl issue. You want to be in it? It'd be like, yeah, I want to be in it. Like, here's the tickets. Like, let's use it for art. Like. And like. But then when it. But, you know. You know, you just change my name, I'm like, yeah, no doubt. I'll tell my editor. And. And so, like. But when it comes out and they see how, like, you know, the politics of prison come into play, and, you know, then it's just like, oh, you shouldn't have used that. Or shouldn't. I'm like, bro, like. Like, walk with me. Like, take the heat with me. Like, you know, you wanted to be in this place. You know, so it's you. Like, unlike you and other journalists on the outside that. That, no offense, that come, like, parachute into prison and, like, maybe meet a prisoner on this on the visit floor like, you. You're working on your next P. By the time, you know, the piece comes out. Like, I'm not. Yeah, I may be working on my next piece, but I'm also having the guy pull up, like, at my. At my bar, saying, like, why did you put that shit in there about this? Or, why did you put that shit in there about that?
- [35:33]
Mike Pesca
Right?
- [35:33]
John Jay Lennon
And it's a little tense when you're going for a jog in the yard later. Like, so.
- [35:37]
Mike Pesca
Right. Yeah, you're. You're a war reporter who was there before the war broke out. You're a native and not, like you said, someone parachuting in does. Has the administration ever cracked down after one of your pieces, like, on the betting? Did they go after the bookies? Because now they are presented in a bad light.
- [35:58]
John Jay Lennon
You know what? It's funny. We were at an event, like, maybe a couple of days after the. It was like a TedX event at SAM thing, and they don't have a lot of those now, so don't. I mean. I mean, a lot of times people get things getting caught up with, like, these, like, programs and, like. Anyway, there was, like, a big event that happened 2020 after that sports Illustrated piece happened, and we were like, you know, I was setting up the TEDx. I was helping guys with their narratives that were giving the speeches. Me and a buddy of. Me and a buddy of mine that was in the piece, like, we were sort of doing, you know, just putting up the drapes and like that. And, like, the officers were kind of talking to us, being my buddy, Red And Red was, and he was like, you know, we were gonna roll on, on you, John. Every, we would roll on all these, like, we're all ready to go. And then we got a call from up top. It was just like, stand down. Like, don't do that. Like, don't. There's people in Albany, there's deputies that like, have to, that I've, that I've dealt with in the past. And they know, like, you know, like, they have to, they have to fact check things. They know exactly who I am. And I have to say they have shown me grace, right? And they, and they're like, listen, don't be retaliating. This will send like messages down probably to the. I'm surmising here. But I think, you know, they're like the optics of that. Like once you've already broken into the mainstream, like the ships fail, like you're not gonna, like, like, like I'm, I'm gonna be writing and that's it. And it's just like. So they're just, they, they kind of work with me and they do show me, you know, some gray.
- [37:31]
Mike Pesca
What about coordinating this book tour? Do, are they helpful with that? Do they get in your way?
- [37:39]
John Jay Lennon
You know, the coordination of the book tour is probably the deafness of my publicist more than them being helpful. But like, look, they did approve. We were, we were, we weren't being sort of death or manipulative with. Was asking for, you know, a visit to sort of record these pre recorded readings of me reading from my book. And what my publicist, Megan Pasco did was she created these like free readings and then pitched bookstores around the nation that like, you could have him reading. And we have really good video of that and he could call in, which I've been doing. I did politics and prose, I did la, I did several books because she coordinated that. But yeah, look, I mean, shockingly, when they approved it and it, and it went off without a hitch. And look, if, if they were showing us grace, like, you know, they don't, they don't really like communicate with you like, John, we appreciate your work. You know, we're like, you know, they foster this relationship. You know, that's not how it is. It's just a lot of indifference. There's a lot of quiet and then there's just like, either you get approved or you don't. And it's, there's no, there's no relationship.
- [38:48]
Mike Pesca
Do you get more time just on the phone to conduct calls like this or do a book reading? Of politics and prose than another prisoner with a good record would be allowed on the phone.
- [38:59]
John Jay Lennon
So the phone situation has really progressed in New York State prisons because phones are now on tablets so we could use the phone all day and they're free. So I mean I, you know, this is not like an ass kissing thing like I do. I call balls and strikes. I mean, and the commissioner, Marticello, this guy, Dan Marticello, he made that happen with the. It wasn't really, I mean it wasn't just him, it was the sort of activist groups too, like Worth Rises. But ultimately we have free phone calls. That's the. And we could use them off of our tablet. So there's this for profit company that has issued tablets and we can use those tablets, many things. But the phone calls now because of Marticello, they are free. But I'm on a, I'm on the, I'm on a tier. It's actually a bit of a coveted tier, but although like half the tier is seriously mentally ill men and women who suffer from serious mental illness and the other half are like the clerks would have run the jail and they put me here, just kind of leave me alone and. But you. So because they have the tablet phones, I'm on the phone on the tier, which is actually clearer for something like this podcast. So it's open all day because everyone has tablets on.
- [40:18]
Mike Pesca
Right. And the old, from what I understand the old system, there was an intermediary middleman that was charging exorbitant rates and there's something, some of the estimates were. But this new tablet system contrasted to the old system saved people behind bars something like $13 million annual.
- [40:39]
John Jay Lennon
Yeah, yeah. What they do is they take it out of the budget and the budget sort of pays for that. Now we still pay for other things on the tablet. Like I pay for like emails, but they're not free like Gmail. They have to spend like, you know, 15 cents for every email. I mean, look, I don't mind that I have a career and I could cut and paste and you know, it's, it's, it's cool, but it, but that's still pricey for folks who, you know, like most who don't have a career and, and are, you know, it's tough on their families and. But there's a lot of, you know, but it's also, you know, I have a love hate relationship with the technology. Right. Because it's kind of exploitative. But at the same time it's like they ain't going to give it to you for free. Yes, in America. So it's just like, yeah, let me get the technology.
- [41:24]
Mike Pesca
Do you think it's important or possible to change the narrative of everything we're talking about?
- [41:31]
John Jay Lennon
I would like to. Yeah. I mean, I think I put my own narrative out there. And, and you. Look, I don't think everyone's dropping, you know, there's sort of, you know, their, Their. Their desire to watch true crime and are sort of like, you know, jumping into the tragedy of true crime and saying, like, all right, I just mess with this. You know, look, I think at the end of any narrative book, like, we, we hope to sort of leave it in the lap of readers and maybe kind of have them ask questions like, what am I? What am. Like maybe be a little bit more judicious about what they consume. I would. I would hope people that create true crime too, maybe are a little more judicious what they create. Yeah, right. So if I could just do like a little bit of that. I'll give you an example. Like, the guy that I did the politics and pros event with is a veteran journalist from Washington D.C. named Tom Jackman. He Washington Post for 25 years. And you know, he was a BE crime reporter and he also had a true crime blog in recent years because, you know, it's popular. But when he read my book and he had a conversation with me, we talked and he said, did, you know, John, I got a proposal. He had, he had taken a buyout from the Washington Post. But he said, you know, I. I talked to an editor at a publisher and I had a. I had a. An opportunity to. They wanted me to write about this murder, this guy killing his wife, sleeping with the Annie. You know, just a whole bunch of. It's ugly. And he's like, I just don't want to write about that. You know, just have to read in your book. It's just like. And I think. And I think. I think it's doing like this idea of like, what we're. I guess when we produce work, you have to ask yourself, I mean, gonna live out there forever, to what end am I telling this story? That's what you want to be known for. Pumping out episodes of Inside Evil. Really?
- [43:27]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [43:28]
John Jay Lennon
I'm proud of my body of work. You know what I mean? Like, like what. What do you like? Not proud of everything else to do with my history, by the way. And that's the, that's the complication.
- [43:40]
Mike Pesca
Do you think that our notions of. Not even our notions, but the actual decisions of Forgiveness and parole depend too much on narrative.
- [43:50]
John Jay Lennon
What do you mean by that?
- [43:51]
Mike Pesca
This is what I mean. Like, it seems to me that to get out, to use, to utilize the parole system, you have to write or tell a story. And the story has to capture whatever the imagination of the parole board is that day. Or even in court, if your story is sympathetic to the judge, you might get a lesser sentence sympathetic to the jury. And your first jury trial was a hung jury. And you know, I understand that we as human beings are narrative creatures and of course it's going to be that way. And of course narrative does reflect reality. But your whole book is about how often it doesn't reflect reality. I'm more of. I'm obviously a narrative person, but I'm also, I think, an empirical person. And I just think that it would be better if we said the lengths of sentences are too long and they're too long for the people who had the sympathetic story tell the sympathetic story well, and they're too long for the unsympathetic people. But as a society, we'd be better off if we kind of capped all sentences at, I don't know, pick a number. 15, 20 years. So these are just some thoughts I had. I read about people who get parole and people who don't. And it's often so similar. And sometimes the difference is who tells a better story or a better story for that audience.
- [45:09]
John Jay Lennon
I mean, look, just to be clear, at sentencing, I was not accountable. I was looking to get away with murder. So that compounded my culpability and I. And I didn't get away with murder and I caused more harm by that. So I mean, I'm responsible for that. So that narrative, definitely not proud of that narrative. But in terms of, in terms of coming to sort of understand myself and you know, I've done. Writing has helped me do a lot of that and I've done a lot of work on myself. You know, most human beings do, they live a 25 year span on some level, they grow up. Right. So when you get to the parole board, you can answer your question. I think, look, I think, I think, I mean, you know, they're looking for you to sort of articulate some type of accountability. I think sometimes what they get, they're probably not too impressed with. And I do think, I do think, you know, certain some people are more, more sort of able to express themselves in a way that will sort of satisfy them insightful way, but some aren't, you know, what happens to the guy. I mean, all of Us, like, are not really, like, proud of or just like, we're not proud of what we did, you know, some. I mean, it's very difficult place to reckon with what you did in prison. And there's nothing really going on in prison, you know, in terms of just like, this introspective and to sort of, like, you know, dieting. They have, like. They would desire for you to, like, you know, like, face what you did and understand what you did and how far reaching that is. I don't know if a lot of people are doing that, you know, to be fair, a lot. The system doesn't enable us to do that. So I think it's a. It's a. I think sometimes it's a little unfair for the parole commissioners to sort of, like, really expect an introspective, like, you know, account of their actions. Like, I'm a writer. I understand internal motivation. I understand external motivations. What I mean is, I understand the emotions that were pushing me to do that. I was full of fear, was broken. I was hollowed out, trying to sort of, like, you know, fulfill an image and to complete my image. It was this crime that I knew I had to commit eventually. And with the external narratives are more sort of glum. You know, he was extorting a dealer. You know, I found that out, like, you know, and I think in totality, I could probably express my motivations perhaps better than most. But what does that mean? Does that mean, like, you know, that. That doesn't really mean much. That's right. I understand narrative. Right. You know, but. But what is. Like, what about the guy that's. Like, what about the guy that's the plumber and bust his ass and, you know, he does great work, and he's. He's gonna go and he's gonna be a plumber when he gets out. Is he articulate? Does he. Does he pursue the master's program like, Shane? Does he, like. No, but he's nice there. 25 years, he's gonna go fix plumbing, and he's not gonna do that, you know, and he's 50 something years old, you know, can he express that? You know, as well, you know, it's just. It's. You know, it's. And each of these crimes are different, right? You know, it's like some of them are to understand or to appreciate, you know, the very difficult work that is to be a parole commissioner. I mean, they see some just, you know, like, disgusting details in front of them, and they kind of, like, want you to be able to wreck. So it's a difficult job. It's very political.
- [48:44]
Mike Pesca
John Jay Lennon is currently in his 24th year beside behind bars the Sing Sing Correctional Facility for a crime he committed in 2001. His writing appears oh just about everywhere, including the best American magazine writing, which was an early and he was told, impossible goal of his. His book is called the Tragedy of True Crime for Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us. And I really spent most of the time with John. I think you heard why, because it was so interesting. The book is fascinating about the other men that he chronicles. John, thank you so much.
- [49:21]
John Jay Lennon
Mike Pesca thanks for having me.
- [49:28]
Mike Pesca
And that's it for today's show. The show is produced by Cory Wara. Kathleen Sykes helps me write the gist list at your grand is working on the web page. Jeff Craig he's out there. He's doing a lot. He's doing a lot with video, he's doing a lot with audio. He counts as two FTEs. That's how hard he's working in the last FTE. But first, in my heart. Michelle Pesca Umper G Peru do Peru and thanks for listening. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to Libsyn ads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.