The Gist – Jon Levy: "We Don't Really Want Authenticity"

Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Jon Levy (Behavioral Scientist, Author of "Team: How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius")
Date: November 11, 2025
Duration: ~30 minutes

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca welcomes behavioral scientist Jon Levy, renowned for his work on networking, trust, and the science of connection. They dive into Levy’s famed dinner salons—events where influential strangers collaborate anonymously—and his latest insights on what constitutes popularity, how social media distorts connection, and the modern fixation on "authenticity." Together, they challenge common wisdom about what we actually value in leaders, peers, and celebrities, and Levy breaks down the surprising science behind collective brilliance and genuine likability.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Jon Levy Connects Interesting People

• Levy’s Salon Dinners:

  • For 15 years, Jon Levy has hosted secret dinners, inviting 12 strangers of notable achievement (CEOs, Olympians, Nobel laureates, etc.) to cook and eat together anonymously (13:41).
  • After cooking, guests play a guessing game to deduce each other's professions, followed by reveals and interactive games or talks in a salon setting (13:41–17:27).
  • Memorable Guest: Steve Greenberg, who won a Grammy for barking on "Who Let the Dogs Out" and also discovered numerous famous brother-bands (14:29–15:17).

• Purpose Behind the Dinners:

  • Initially motivated by research showing behaviors like obesity, happiness, and voting “spread” through social networks; Levy hypothesized he could improve his life by proximity to highly accomplished people (15:24).
  • He iteratively studied trust, connection, and built a process for selecting and connecting extraordinary individuals.

2. What Makes Someone 'Interesting' or Popular?

• Selection Process:

  • Guests are found via recommendations, conferences, self-nomination, and a dedicated research team scouring 170+ industries for top achievers (18:41).
  • Levy prefers nostalgic figures (cartoonists, dinosaur experts, voice of Optimus Prime) over just celebrities, as nostalgia trumps status in sparking group connection (19:48–21:11).

• Shifts in “Interesting”:

  • Popularity is about likability and network diversity, not just status, power, or celebrity (21:55).
  • Quote (Levy, 22:57):

    "If you can get people to feel that you like them and you’re friends with a lot of variety of people, that'll actually be the person that's most popular. The people with high status, it turns out, often have lower rates of employment, higher rates of depression, anxiety, loneliness... It’s the likable people that really make it."

3. Social Media and Modern “Popularity”

• Levy distinguishes “status-seeking” platforms (Instagram) from entertainment-focused ones (Reddit), noting that only the former tend to trigger negative self-comparison and isolation (23:54).
• Social media amplifies confusion between status and genuine likability (24:45).

4. Authenticity – Is It Overrated?

• The concept of authenticity, especially in leadership, originally arose from “California gurus,” not scientific understanding (25:13).
• Research: People's assessment of their own authenticity does not align with how others perceive them. Even others can’t agree on who’s authentic, suggesting it’s a projection, not a real quality (25:13–26:54).
  • Quote (Levy, 26:54):

    "Authenticity isn’t about you. It’s: Do you fit my narrative of who you should be? If you fit that narrative, you’re authentic."

  • Example: Kendall Jenner’s infamous Pepsi ad was rejected as “inauthentic” because neither Jenner nor Pepsi fit the public’s narrative as social justice leaders (27:20–28:25).
  • Authenticity can be negative—Harvey Weinstein was “authentic,” but clearly not admirable (28:25–28:36).

5. Authenticity in Politics & Celebrity

• Politicians like Bernie Sanders and AOC are labeled “authentic” because their style matches public narrative expectations, even if their behavior is repetitive or calculated (28:55–30:23).
• Pratfall Effect:
  • We like public figures who show fallibility without undermining competence (Jennifer Lawrence’s Oscars fall, Keanu Reeves’s openness about hardship) (30:23–32:19).
  • Quote (Levy, 30:55):

    “We actually like the character, not despite the fact that they're constantly falling all over themselves, but because of it.”

6. What We Really Want from Leaders

• Modern leadership standards, shaped in the early 20th century by Harvard’s invention of the MBA, have fixated on status markers rather than nurturing genuine connection, trust, and collective intelligence (32:19–32:42).
• Levy’s thesis: We should move away from individualistic, “authenticity”-driven ideals and focus on leaders who can unlock collective genius, facilitate connection, and foster trust.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On what guests want to know:

  • “If you run the paleontology department, the museum of Natural History… all they want to hear about is dinosaurs. It's the things that are oddly nostalgic that people are really into.” (Levy, 20:50)

• On authenticity:

  • “If you act consistent with my narrative of who you should be, you’re viewed as authentic… Nobody ever said Harvey Weinstein wasn't authentic.” (Levy, 27:40–28:25)

• On popularity:

  • “It's the likable people that really make it.” (Levy, 22:57)

• On the “pratfall effect”:

  • “People actually like you more because if somebody comes off as too perfect, then it mirrors our imperfections and we feel uncomfortable.” (Levy, 31:25)

• On the problem with seeking authenticity:

  • “We get caught up in these like completely absurd ideas that have nothing to do with what we actually want. And we repeat these things at, like, gurus say without really thinking them through.” (Levy, 28:43)

Key Timestamps

• 12:36–15:17 – Levy introduces his dinners, recounts odd and notable guests, and reflects on the psychology behind the project.
• 17:27–20:50 – Expanding the salon concept; methods of guest selection and the role of nostalgia in connection.
• 21:55–23:32 – The science of popularity and likability, and what truly makes someone “interesting.”
• 23:54–25:13 – How social media warps perceptions of status, likability, and authenticity.
• 25:13–28:55 – The authenticity myth, why people are “authentic,” and the role of narrative.
• 28:55–32:19 – The pratfall effect, authenticity in politicians and celebrities, and how public image is constructed.
• 32:19–32:42 – Historical detour into how MBA culture shaped our modern (mis)conceptions of leadership.

Tone & Style

• The conversation is witty, skeptical, and intellectually playful, with Pesca’s “responsibly provocative” style prompting candid insights from Levy.
• The episode strikes a balance between lighthearted anecdotes (barking Grammys, dinosaur fever) and rigorous social science, encouraging listeners to critically re-examine the traits we reward in public life and personal networks.

Conclusion

This episode offers a lively, science-backed takedown of society’s obsession with "authenticity" and status, proposing that what really enriches our lives are diverse, likable connections—and leaders who foster them. Jon Levy’s unique approach to connecting extraordinary people reveals just how subjective our social values are, as well as the power of collective engagement over lone-hero leadership.

Recommended for:
Anyone interested in the psychology of leadership, networking, influencer culture, and those curious about why “authenticity” isn’t quite what it seems.