The Gist – October 15, 2025

Guest: Jonathan Mahler
Episode: "Jonathan Mahler: The Tabloids That Made The City That Made the Country"
Host: Mike Pesca

Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca welcomes Jonathan Mahler, journalist and author of The Gods of New York: Egotists, Idealists, Opportunists and the Birth of the Modern City, 1986-1990. Together, they examine the late 1980s transformation of New York City, focusing on the chaotic interplay between media, politics, race, and urban rebirth. The conversation delves into how sensationalist tabloids shaped public life and created outsized personalities like Al Sharpton, Donald Trump, and Rudy Giuliani, and looks at the enduring legacy of that era in America today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Do the Right Thing: Spike Lee and the Summer of '89

[09:55–12:11]

• Spike Lee as a Symbol of the Era:

  • Mahler describes Lee as an “egotist, idealist, and opportunist,” encompassing the full spectrum of characteristics he documents in his book.

  • Do the Right Thing stands as the cultural centerpiece for depicting race, class, and gentrification in late 1980s NYC.

    "It's amazing because it's like a timeless film that deals with all these universal themes...but it's so specific to this particular moment in the life of New York as well, as you say, 1989."
    —Jonathan Mahler [10:33]

• Direct Inspirations from Real Events:

  • The murder of Yusef Hawkins and other racially charged killings directly influenced Lee and Mahler’s interpretation of the era.
  • Film includes references to real-life incidents, like the Michael Stewart case and the spectacle around Sal’s Pizzeria mirroring events in Howard Beach.

Racial Flashpoints & Activism

[12:12–18:56]

• Yusef Hawkins, Bensonhurst, and Howard Beach:

  • Hawkins’ murder (August 1989) was a flashpoint ahead of David Dinkins’ historic mayoral win.

  • Sharpton led protests into hostile neighborhoods, highlighting extreme racial tensions and media-driven narratives.

    "After the murder, Al Sharpton...led a busload of black protesters into Bensonhurst right after Yusuf's murder. And there were just the neighborhood kind of residents gathered and were just shouting the most vile things at them."
    —Jonathan Mahler [15:46]

• Sharpton’s Self-Reflection:

  • Mahler discusses Sharpton's evolution, acknowledging recklessness and youthful zeal while stopping short of repudiating key controversies like the Tawana Brawley case.

    "He talks about that as being the moment where he kind of realized that, you know, it was time for him to grow up."
    —Jonathan Mahler [17:17]

The Tabloid-Made Personas: Sharpton, Trump, Giuliani

[19:00–23:10]

• Tabloid Ecosystem as Incubator:

  • Sharpton and Trump understood the symbiotic relationship between norm-breaking behavior and media attention.

  • The tabloids rewarded outrageousness—turning activists, prosecutors, and business people into national names.

    "Trump and Sharpton are kind of two sides of the same coin. I mean, they both saw that they could capture the public's attention...by saying and doing outrageous things that got them into the tabloids."
    —Jonathan Mahler [20:05]

• Norm-Breaking Becomes the New Normal:

  • Giuliani and Koch, too, used the media for attention, upending traditional roles of politicians and prosecutors.

    "All these lines that people assumed were...could not be crossed...it was all these uncrossable lines were suddenly getting crossed. These norms that seemed like they were kind of holding our culture and society in place. We're all getting broken. And it was kind of fine."
    —Jonathan Mahler [22:10]

Ed Koch and Urban Rebirth

[23:43–29:38]

• Koch as Mascot and Manager:

  • Koch presided over NYC’s economic rebound, aligning with Reagan-era neoliberalism and incentivizing private development.

  • Pesca and Mahler debate Koch’s legacy—whether he saved or wounded the city by spurring gentrification at the cost of affordable housing.

    "He presided over the economic rebirth of New York, but he also was, was himself just kind of a mascot for the city."
    —Jonathan Mahler [24:25]

• The Price of Development:

  • Aggressive development replaced SROs (“flop houses”) with luxury units, fueling both fiscal recovery and rising homelessness.

    "It did drive up tax revenues for the city, but it also sent a lot of people in the streets and decreased the amount of affordable housing..."
    —Jonathan Mahler [28:39]

The Rise of Homelessness

[31:42–34:02]

• A New Phenomenon:

  • Homelessness became a fixture in 1980s NYC, driven by vanishing cheap housing, deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill, and shrinking manufacturing jobs.

    "It was a product of...the destruction of...this cheap housing. It was a product of deinstitutionalization, and that was a nationwide phenomenon..."
    —Jonathan Mahler [32:15]

• Misguided Reforms:

  • Closing mental health institutions, seen as progressive at the time, left vulnerable populations without support.

    "There was an idea that these people would be released to these kind of community centers...and they just kind of never appeared. So there was nowhere for these people to go."
    —Jonathan Mahler [33:35]

Tabloids as City Shapers

[34:02–38:19]

• Tabloid Wars:

  • Tabloids like the New York Post (post-Murdoch) and Daily News dominated public conversation, fueling and amplifying sensational stories.

  • Establishment media like the New York Times tried to position itself as a high-minded counterweight but also indulged in the tabloid celebrity machinery.

    "These tabloids really just dominated the conversation in New York...They're both, you know, kind of what was on the, what was on the COVID The Wood, as it was known, was like always the story of the day."
    —Jonathan Mahler [36:15]

• Shared Reality:

  • Despite their distorting effects, tabloids created a shared (if sometimes warped) citywide narrative.

    "So let you know, New York felt like...both like the center of the world and also kind of like a small town."
    —Jonathan Mahler [37:46]

• The New York Times’ Complicity:

  • The Times “held itself above the tabloids, but not entirely” and contributed to Trump’s celebrity.

    "No wonder Donald Trump has such a huge ego. I don’t think anyone has ever been featured on the COVID of a New York Times section as many times in a single year."
    —Mahler citing NYT internal memo [39:29]

Race, Crime, and Polarizing Stories

[41:45–44:14]

• Crime Coverage as Social Catalysis:

  • Stories like the Bernhard Goetz subway shooting and Central Park Jogger case weren’t just about the incidents—they played out as cultural and racial battlegrounds, with the tabloids driving the polarization.

    "The tabloids turned Bernie Goetz into a folk hero...and then you would have a reaction, a backlash to the event itself that would inevitably just further polarize the city."
    —Jonathan Mahler [43:36]

• Differences in Modern Era:

  • Today’s media fragmentation makes it harder for a single narrative to dominate or for incidents to have the same sociopolitical impact.

    "Everyone’s attention is flying in a million different directions now ... you could amplify a story in the tabloids...and everyone in New York would be talking about it. That was it."
    —Jonathan Mahler [41:45]

Crime in the City: Then vs. Now

[45:49–49:15]

• 1990s NYC was Incomparably Dangerous:

  • Crime rates (especially murder) were astronomically higher than today, which heightened underlying social anxieties and shaped political demands.

  • The crack epidemic added to the volatility and lawlessness.

    "When people talk about how dangerous New York is now, it's like, it's a joke. I mean, it's just nothing compared to what it was like then..."
    —Jonathan Mahler [46:00]

• Central Park Jogger: A Complicated Narrative:

  • Acknowledges that, separate from the wrongful convictions, there was real and serious violence in the park that night.

  • The facts were complicated, but the tabloids shaped the initial perception.

    "There's no question that that was going on that night...a group of kids were out in the park beating people up...that was kind of what New York was like during these years."
    —Jonathan Mahler [47:54]

Giuliani, Dinkins, and the Crime Drop

[48:36–52:39]

• Did Giuliani Deserve Credit?

  • Crime rates already began falling before Giuliani took office, largely linked to the end of the crack epidemic, but his administration capitalized on and accelerated safer city trends with new policing strategies.

    "I think partial credit, you know, I think that crime was already by, you know, by the time he gets elected in 1990, crime is already like at its peaks...I think he was able to kind of like take that momentum and build on it..."
    —Jonathan Mahler [49:15]

• Dinkins’ Challenges:

  • Pesca and Mahler agree Dinkins faced near-impossible headwinds: entrenched violence, economic crisis, and high-stakes racial crises like Crown Heights.

    "He was dealt a very difficult hand. Like running the city during those years was close to impossible..."
    —Jonathan Mahler [51:11]

Notable Quotes

• "Tabloid-driven: that's really the key to the period, and to understanding why we still talk about these people."
  —Mike Pesca [20:05]

• "Norm-breaking... has now become basically the theme of our political life. That’s exactly what was going on then."
  —Jonathan Mahler [22:10]

• "He was the most important figure in New York during these years because he did preside over New York's rebirth. He kind of lifted New York up after... urban blight."
  —Jonathan Mahler on Ed Koch [24:25]

• “The tabloids turned Bernie Goetz into a folk hero...and then you would have a reaction, a backlash...that would inevitably just further polarize the city.”
  —Jonathan Mahler [43:36]

Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• Spike Lee as Era Symbol – [10:33]
• Sharpton’s Recklessness and Growth – [17:17]
• Outrageousness as Path to Influence (Sharpton & Trump) – [20:05]
• Koch as Economic Rescuer and Mascot – [24:25]
• Homelessness as a New Urban Trauma – [32:15]
• Tabloids' Narrative Control – [36:15]
• Media Monoculture vs. Today's Fragmentation – [41:45]
• True scale of crime in 1980s NYC – [46:00]
• Central Park Jogger complexities – [47:54]
• Giuliani and Dinkins—credit and blame – [49:15–51:11]

Tone and Style

The dialogue is sharp, historically rich, and wry, with both Pesca and Mahler maintaining a lively, critical, and at times sardonic tone. They keep the conversation engaging, blending media criticism, cultural analysis, and political reflection with a clear, conversational style.

Conclusion

Pesca and Mahler present a vivid picture of the crucible that was late-1980s New York: a city transformed by violence, activism, and above all, by a media environment that built—and destroyed—public figures with equal ferocity. Their discussion connects the past to the present, illuminating how media-driven personalities and tabloid logic have migrated from urban sensation to national narrative. Jonathan Mahler’s The Gods of New York serves as both a cautionary and explanatory account of the city that made the country.

Recommended for anyone interested in media history, urban politics, race, and the making of modern celebrity and crisis culture.