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Katja Hoyer on Germany’s AFD and the Limits of Calling Someone a Nazi
00:28:59
Today on The Gist, the Texas Democrats’ walk-out, a dramatic gesture that ultimately did little because they never had the leverage to win. From there he zooms out to Europe, where far-right parties are suddenly topping polls in France, the UK, and...
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Mike Pesca
Have an offer for Pesca plus subscribers. Another reason to go to subscribe.mike pesca.com and it's that we have a fantasy football league. If you wish to join Pesca plus and you wish to come to an auction, a fantasy football auction among Gist listeners this Sunday you could pay $100 just to keep you interested and everyone else interested. You could join our existing league. I don't want to brag but last year we had 14 members and every single one re upped. It was a very fun experience and so we're offering it again. We can't really go more than 16 but maybe this year if you come in last place, we'll kick you out. Join Peska plus to become a member and if you have done this, email me at the gist@mike pesca.com Tell us. I'm a Pesca plus member and I want into this league. Subscribe.mikepeska.com It's Monday, August 18, 2025 from Peach Fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. The Dems took flight but lost the fight. Now they're back in the heart of Texas.
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News Reporter
We have breaking news in the congressional redistricting battle. Texas Democrats signaling that they are closer now to ending a nearly two week walkout that has blocked the controversial mid decade Republican redraw of this state's congressional maps.
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Mike Pesca
Well, that effort was doomed because they had no leverage. Leverage is pretty important leverage. Trump's rhetoric, even Trump's Trump's rhetoric as we're seeing with Ukraine and the non peace deal there, there was a moment that maybe the Democratic objection to being steamrolled by their Republican redistricting rivals in Texas was described as if not standing a chance, then as the Dems taking a stand and a stand different from the ones they took before. Here was the Washington Post daily podcast.
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Post reports But now you have people like Gavin Newsom, who we should note is Also a potential 2028 presidential contender, Governor Hochul in New York saying, well, maybe we need to fight dirty.
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Mike Pesca
I'd say not fight dirty, just fight, just actually fight. The Texas action, maybe the stunt, if you want to call it that, the Hail Mary certainly was doomed to fail. And New York redistricting certainly seems unlikely. But California, yeah, sure, they could even out the Texas measure. And also I'd like to note that Texas itself, they might get five more Republican seats. But remember this, every time you redistrict, what you do is you redistribute votes. So the legislator the map drawers might think they could spare a bunch of Republican votes in a bunch of overwhelmingly Republican districts here and there and they could redistribute them to Democratic leaning districts. But this doesn't mean that their theory of the case is right and it doesn't mean that the assumptions they're making, like the Latino vote is going to stick with Trump as much as it did in 2024. Doesn't mean that's right. Remember the Texas map that the Republicans are redistricting was originally drawn by Republicans who wanted to maximize their advantage back then. Also, it is not nearly the same opportunity for pickups as if one party got to redraw the map of the other party. So I wouldn't exactly say be careful what you wish for. I think they'll get more seats out of it for sure. I would say this fight is not dirty on the part of Democrats, but also might not be terribly effective on the on the part of Republicans in the Spiel, Russia, red carpets and as I said, leverage. But first, check out the polls out of Europe. Who's number one? Le Pen in France, Farage in the UK and in Germany it's the AfD far right parties leading everywhere. The AfD was talked up by JD Vance and Elon Musk and talk of a band circulated in Germany. The Germans are very sensitive about their fascist past, but I guess not so sensitive as to stop the AfD from being number one in the polls. Katya Hoyer, a historian and political commentator, joins me next to explain all you need to know about why the Germans are looking towards this particular alternative for Deutsche Land. As summer winds down and fall is right around that corner. Just peeking out the tendrils of your hair, feeling its lovely breeze throughout. Quince is there for you, refreshing your wardrobe with staple pieces for the season ahead. I in summer used linen shorts. Linen shorts, Timeless, classic, artisan and oh so luxurious. They stack up against similar luxury options quite well in terms of design, craftsmanship and especially value. You know Quince also has a line of bedding, towels and cookware. Your closet will thank you. How about on your next trip? Want some Quint's luggage? Quints Bags to check in to carry on Carry on Quints within a Quint Quint is there for you. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quint.com the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com the gist to get free shipping and 365 day returns quints.com the gist for all of the parents out there with teenagers, we know you're already trying to keep a million different things under control. Cash App is here to help make sure your team's money and their spending isn't adding to that craziness. The idea is to meet 13 through 17 year olds where they are to educate them to work with their knowledge of apps already. It comes in different colors and patterns to fit their style. They'll like it. I like getting money. Apparently teens like colors and styles. It's cooler than regular apps. The platform has a lot of tools that help teens develop real world financial habits. It's inviting. Teens are app natives. Maybe you're not. Cash App Bring bridges the divide and you know it's not there to take advantage of anyone. It really is a learning tool. It's functional. There are no surprises. 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Banking services provided by Cash App's bank Partners Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank Member FDIC direct deposit roundups, overdraft coverage and discounts provided By Cash App, a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App legal podcast for full disclosures. The AfD political party, the alternative for Germany Deutschland, that's the day is now quite shockingly, except perhaps to my next guest, number one in the polls. This is the far right political party that was essentially banned, or a major effort to ban it within German politics caught steam. At the same time, J.D. vance and other American, let us say, right wing, perhaps far right wing officials endorsed this party. Elon Musk likes the leader of this party and they're apparently striking a chord with the German people. Joining me now is someone who called it from the start, both normatively and predictively. She's Katya Hoyer. She's a historian, or an historian if you speak English, and a journalist. Her last book was called beyond the Wall, A history of East Germany where she's from, and she's coming out with a new book about the town and the Republic of Weimar. Katya, welcome to the gist.
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Katya Hoyer
Thank you.
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Mike Pesca
When I say you called it, take me back to your essay of a few months ago, the case against banning the AfD. You made it on a couple of tracks, but what were your major points there?
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Katya Hoyer
Yeah. So this debate, as you just said, has gained some traction as to whether or not this party should be banned because Germany, with its very dark history, its Nazi past, is arguably a lot more sensitive about far right parties than other countries are. So it's of course not the only part, not the only country where a far right party is gain traction, but it's got a particular sensitivity there. So there was this massive debate.
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Mike Pesca
I'll just interrupt you to point out that last week the number one parties in the polls of France, the UK and Germany were all far right parties. Le pen's party, Reform UK and AfD. But. Sorry, go ahead.
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Katya Hoyer
No, that's a good point because in the uk very few people would argue that the Reform Party should be banned. And in France, yes, there have been court cases, but again, an outright ban of the party isn't really being discussed. Whilst in Germany, Germany, that's a pretty mainstream view to hold. You'll find plenty of people saying, yes, of course, it's a dangerous party, it should be banned. And this is what democracy is all about, kind of defending, defending itself from far right influences. And to me it seems a very dangerous and frankly unhelpful argument to make that you would want to ban what is now in many polls, the largest political party basically, or the most popular, certainly political party.
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Mike Pesca
Yeah. So is the AFD more far Right than Le Pen. The. The Le Pen's party is constituted now. Is it more far right than Farage, who does well in kind of ceremonial elections for European Parliaments and has had some gained some traction in local elections, accounting for the fact that each of those countries have different histories. Not that the UK never had any sort of fascist elements and Oswald Mosley, but of course they've been a functional true democracy throughout the world wars, whereas Germany wasn't. But back to my original question, are they more far right, more dangerous compared to their continental brethren?
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Katya Hoyer
I would say that they are more far right because they haven't had any reason to moderate, really. I mean, they were called Nazis right from the off by the political mainstream, by many people in the media. Even though they started off as a, you know, sort of libertarian Eurosceptic movement to start with in 2013, they really weren't, you know, kind of far right neo Nazi party. But because of this, you know, angst, to use a German word, that that underpins the sort of political debate in Germany, they had no reason to moderate. They were called Nazis from the start. You know, why would you, once your reputation is going down that, that route, you know, row back from that? And they haven't really fared badly with that. So to them, you know, when they get asked in the media, you know, don't you think it's time to moderate? They tend to say, you know, why? Why should we? This has only recently changed. So in the last sort of few weeks, they've come up for the first with an actual strategy as to how they want to get into power rather than just grow. And because in Germany, you almost always have coalition governments, they need to work with somebody else. So they basically need to find a way out of their isolation. And now they've created a kind of code of conduct, really. Whether they can stick to it or not is a different question. But they've created this idea that they should be more polite and arguably more civilized in public debate.
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Mike Pesca
When you get called a Nazi or when a political institution gets called a Nazi in Germany, was there a time when that was the kiss of death and that is no longer the time?
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Katya Hoyer
Well, I think in Germany, as in other parts of the world, it's often seen as a, or was certainly often seen as a last kind of resort. When you've run out of all other content based arguments, you kind of resorted to that.
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Mike Pesca
Yeah, right. The Internet idea of absurdum al Hitler, which is all Internet debates, someone gets compared to Hitler. So that goes on in Germany. Too, I guess.
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Katya Hoyer
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And, you know, with. With the AfD in particular, certainly there wasn't really a reason for commentators to hold back either. I mean, the AFD tried to mount a challenge at one point and said that one of his, one of their local politicians, the most extreme one, a man called Hooker who kind of runs the AfD in the state of Thuringia, where they got their heartlands, he is very extreme and he has been convicted twice for using Nazi slog. And when he was called, I think it was a fascist rather than a Nazi by a commentator, there was a legal challenge and the courts actually said, nope, that's fair enough, you can call him that. And from then on, basically, commentators said, well, you know, if there's no legal reason not to, it's. It's sort of stuck as a, as part of the discourse.
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Mike Pesca
But my question is more along the lines of. It was my impression that for many, many years Germany was so intent, all of Germany was so intent of shedding its Nazi past that any plausible connection to Nazism would damn anyone who wanted to have any sort of standing in public life. And here you have them being called Nazis, and it seems in some ways to have helped them a bit. Is that because there is an untapped large portion of society that says maybe only amongst themselves, the Nazis maybe weren't so bad. Maybe some elements of that time period or something we should embrace?
- [15:18]
Katya Hoyer
No, I don't think it's that at all. I think it's a. It's a kind of stubborn backlash against what people feel as the political mainstream trying to ostracize or label that part of the population, especially as it's grown so much. You know, there are now entire, entire areas, particularly where I'm originally from in the, in the former East Germany, where you'll have, you know, half the population voting for them, and you don't have half the population in a particular village or small town. You know, so being extremists or Nazis, these people have known each other for, for years and decades, and they think it's absurd that they, or the party that they vote for get. Get called Nazis. And so they almost toy with this thing. You know, they've taken it back and are now provoking deliberately the authorities and the media by using certain slogans or certain words. And Hooker, the, the man I mentioned earlier is a. Is a classic example of that. He's kind of mildly modified. That Nazi slogan now that you used to use and still goes out there and uses it in the Manifesto and everything because he knows that people have this sort of, you know, glint in the eye when he uses it, as if it was a provocation.
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Mike Pesca
So I don't want to go too far in this conversation without you laying out what are their policy positions, what do they stand for?
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Katya Hoyer
Yeah, I mean, their main topic is, as you would expect, immigration. And that's also what, what made them big, really. I mean, they became a party in 2013 as a sort of splinter party away from the liberals because they were very opposed against the euro being introduced in Germany as a currency and, and the kind of closer inter European connection and then those kinds of things. It was very niche really. It was a group of kind of professors who were, you know, going down a kind of very libertarian path that isn't really for most Germans. Germans are on the whole quite happy for the government to sort of intervene in the, you know, in the market economy. So this, this didn't attract many people, many voters. And then 2015 happened. The Chancellor, Angela Merkel basically opened the borders during the refugee crisis and you had about 1 million refugees or asylum seekers coming into Germany. And that was a topic, the whole fear and, and all the anxiety that came with that, that was a topic that the AFD as the only political party really picked up because Angela Merkel at the time, you know, she was the leader of the Conservative Party. So that's normally the center right party that would have under any other Christian Democrats. Yeah, the Christian Democrats or the cdu and they tend to normally be a center right party. So for most voters, traditionally in the past, if you want a kind of immigration skeptic approach, that was where you take it. And suddenly that space was occupied by someone who'd put herself at the helm of this decision. So, you know, there was nowhere for voters to go. You could go left from there on the political spectrum or you stick with her, kind of confirming her in that. And that's what the AfD made, made haywire with. Basically they found that gap, that vacuum on the political spectrum because there was nothing basically center right there for any voters who wanted to express concern over that decision. And that's over time basically become their, their main topic. But other than that, they are largely economic libertarian still. So there's a lot of admiration for Malay and for, you know, Trump and Vance and, and the connection there. Despite, they're also quite anti American. So that's a square that they haven't quite, or a circle rather. They haven't quite squared yet. But there's also that strain in them.
- [18:49]
Mike Pesca
Trump and anti Trump American or the more hegemon reputation of America influencing all the world's policy.
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Katya Hoyer
While there is a segment in the German far right, there always has been that sort of claimed that Germany never regained its independence after the Second World War and that the kind of dominance that America had over it, that Germany is still an occupied country, effectively, it goes quite far into, you know, kind of conspiracy territory as well. Once you, you follow that.
- [19:18]
Mike Pesca
Well, you're writing a book called, I don't have to tell you, you're writing a book called Weimar. I mean, that was an animating argument. After the First World War, Germany hadn't regained independence.
- [19:29]
Katya Hoyer
Yeah, absolutely. And some of the people who follow that theory today, they either tend to go back to 1945 and the sort of occupation then, or they go back to 1918 and they say that the abdication of the monarchy and the sort of revolution that came then and installed a new system after the First World War was foreign dominated. So one way or another, they come to the same conclusion, but they pick different moments. But that's the strand as well, is that there's this idea that kind of German policy is too dependent on American policy.
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Mike Pesca
What do they venerate Frederick the Great, the Kaiser who.
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Katya Hoyer
I mean, it depends who you ask. It's a very splintered movement. And that's part of their problem as well, is that many people, you know, the media say, oh, but look at, you know, what one of their politicians said. And people say, but I didn't vote for them, I voted for my local candidate. And he says something completely different. And so you have basically anyone from disgruntled conservatives, quite moderate, reasonable people at one end, to actual outright neo Nazis and racists at the other end and everything in between, with very little leadership coming from the, from the top because they're always squabbling amongst each other.
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Mike Pesca
Their appeal through immigration that was being on addressed by the mainstream of the right is exactly the parallel of what brought Trump to power. As the Republican Party in the United States was doing the autopsy and saying what we need to do is moderate on immigration. Trump said no, it resonated with people. He was called a Nazi. I mean, it's so, it's so apparent. But you mentioned immigration and the economic policies, which is, is it more Millay type libertarianism or is it a rejection of socialism, which is to say the main way that East Germany organized its economics for decades and decades. Would the average voter be able to articulate libertarian principles or do they have more of a Complaint of how things are going under the old.
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Katya Hoyer
I think most voters aren't as so the AfD itself is fairly libertarian. That's because its leader, Alice Weidel is. She comes kind of from a very economic background, worked for Goldman Sachs and is a basically economics person. And she was also part of this early intake of 2013, many of whom have now left, I should add, because the. The party drifted so far away from economic issues towards immigration. But she stayed with it despite the fact that her main focus, I would say, is for still economic issues rather than immigration, as the rest of her party is. I don't think that is the main issue for most voters. It is in the sense that they want the German economy to recover. So people are very worried about the economy and they feel that many decisions, such as particularly energy policy has gone completely in the wrong direction. And they want what many people would say is a more common sense approach to economic issues rather than this kind of big re organization that's happened over the last few years where there was a lot of investment in for instance, shutting nuclear power plants down was an entirely ideological project. They would shut down in the middle of the energy crisis in 2023, the last ones. And they were perfectly functionable. And people were saying, you know, was that necessary just because the Green Party has got a thing about nuclear energy, because you know, they came out of the anti nuclear movement. Those kinds of things people do have strong opinions on. But it doesn't mean that they want to take a chainsaw to the social democracy that that Germany kind of has always had, because that's what most people want.
- [23:11]
Mike Pesca
Are AfD voters, typically union members.
- [23:15]
Katya Hoyer
A lot of them are so above average. They are. Which is something that the unions haven't really taken into account up in writing about that for some time. That this is very much now Germany's working class party, which you say that to Germans and they just look at you like we don't have a working class anymore. And you think, you know, it's so normal in the American and in the British context to work with these terms, with these social terms. Germany, West Germany anyway, told itself after the Second World War that social classes just don't exist anymore. We create a totally kind of equal society with equal chances for everyone, same culture for everyone. So let's not worry about it anymore. And that's really stuck in intellectual people's minds, especially, you know, when you say these things to them. But then you look at any indicator of this and it's exactly the same in Germany as It is in France, in the us in the uk, where working class people are more drawn towards these types of policies than other people are. So. Yes. You also find a higher ratio of union members in there as well.
- [24:18]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. Because of the cultural aspects, you argue.
- [24:21]
Katya Hoyer
Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's also a sense that identity politics and wokeness, for lack of a better word, has become so mainstream across the political spectrum. And so, you know, kind of center right and conservative voters, even independent of the 2015 decision, felt that in terms of identity politics and in terms of culture politics, they didn't really have an outlet for, for their disgruntlement.
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Mike Pesca
Well, also in terms of major policy decisions like opening the borders to immigrants, I mean, this is not what. Maybe there was a wokeness, quote unquote element to it. But my point is you can be the wolf in sheep's clothing or I don't know what the German idiom is. It probably came from a, you know, Grimm's fairy tale, actually, it's Aesop. But my point is you can be a titular center right politician who actually governs from the left. If you get all the big questions right, it won't necessarily engender the backlash that it did.
- [25:18]
Katya Hoyer
No, and I think you're right, it is about more than just culture. I mean, in particular, energy policy was a big thing. People didn't have as much of a problem as they should have done with Germany kind of making itself independent on Russian gas. You know, people were calling that out at the time, and there wasn't enough public outrage about it, particularly as it also came with selling out entire infrastructure in Germany itself, as in, you know, power plants and pipelines and things like that. Like the actual infrastructure in Germany itself was also sold to, to Russia. So that should have worried people. But it, you know, the, the big thing really was to say, let's go entirely to green renewable energy in the long term. In the meantime, we just use gas. And now you have the third largest economy in the world. You know, still Germany is still a hugely industrial economy. It still makes things, it still needs energy running entirely on sort of goodwill. You know, they're just basically, they've got the, the renewables domestically, but that's it. And then basically the imported gas, where they're just scrambling around on the world market right now to try and make sure that they have enough. So you ask anyone to invest in Germany and make things like, say, green steel, and they say, no, thank you, because I have no idea whether I've got enough cheap electricity to actually do that and they go to France and to other places instead. And that's the sort of thing that drove people insane.
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Mike Pesca
Do you think the rise, success status in the polls of the AfD says more about resurgent fascism in Germany or more about not addressing legitimate concerns of voters?
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Katya Hoyer
I mean, there's always been an extremist element in Germany. And I would say arguably that's bigger also than the UK where I live now. Most, when you look at kind of surveys and polling and studies that have been done, I would say about 10 or so of society are genuinely far right and they have also found a home in the AfD when they previously hadn't had one. So that I would say, but that's 10 rather than 25. I just refuse to believe that the kind of rise in the last few years of the AfD and it is a sharp and recent rise, that people just woke up one morning and decided, I'm a neo fascist. Now, I think this is really a driving to the head of certain issues that have annoyed people for a long time, but they haven't really had a way or haven't found a way of, of expressing that. And because there have been these huge waves, for instance, of immigration also since 2015. So there was another kind of largish wave in 2021, 22, 23, that was at kind of almost at the same level really where people were saying, we tried to, you know, deal with this one thing and you've sold it to us as a one off that we're still trying to deal with now in terms of social cohesion, housing, all the rest of it. And then more of that happens. So I would say is more a sign. There's certainly this recent growth and the AfD becoming a large mainstream party in the sense that, you know how many people vote for it, that is more an expression of discontent of voters than it is of people genuinely becoming extremists.
- [28:29]
Mike Pesca
Katja Hoyer is a German British historian. She writes the Zeitgeist substack. Her last book was called beyond the A History of East Germany. And her next one is will be Weimar. Thank you so much.
- [28:43]
Katya Hoyer
Thank you.
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Mike Pesca
And now the spiel. The historic meeting between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin was certainly that historic, significant, important. It just wasn't, nor would I have thought it would be consequential. The list of Western leaders to meet with Putin since the war started was short and predisposed toward him. Victor Orban of Hungary, Robert Fitzo of Slovakia, and now Trump. You could say Trump is also predisposed towards Putin. There certainly were four years worth of news cycles about that, but for the last few weeks, he seemed actually a bit peeved. He told reporters on the plane over there that there be at least a ceasefire. Yeah, he tells reporters lots of things. I thought this summit had maybe a 5% chance of accomplishing anything afterward. I can't tell you if it's down to four or up to six, but it hasn't moved that much. I think Trump understands this. After all he told reporters before the summit. Trump tells Fox Radio the meeting has about a 25% chance of not going well. Wait, Mike, you said the summit had a 5% chance of a breakthrough, but Trump there in the clip is saying 75% chance of success. Yes, I know, but Trump says a lot of things as we documented, and I've never heard him say anything was less than the best, the most, the greatest possibly since Abraham Lincoln. So when he says 75% chance of success, it's him saying, yeah, nothing's really going to happen, and I know it. And he doesn't let it get him down. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, on the other hand, well, here he was on Face the Nation. Good morning to you, Mr. Secretary. Good morning. Thank you.
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- [30:36]
Mike Pesca
Listen there, Eeyore. You know the boss doesn't like low energy. Tagged another Floridian with that nickname. He's out now. Haven't heard of him. Okay. Luckily, there was enough to animate Republicans, not what Putin gave them. What the Democrats did here was Senator Chris Murphy during his turn to face the nation.
- [30:55]
News Reporter
U.S. military personnel in uniform literally were on their hands and knees rolling out a red carpet for the most murderous dictator of the 21st century.
- [31:05]
Mike Pesca
I mean, what are they supposed to do? Just toss it in the general area and hope it landed right? Yes, I get it. Putin bad. And it is kind of important to say that. It seems so obvious, but there are, of course, elements in the Republican firmament who genuinely don't believe that. But it's also so very priced in, as was the nearly ubiquitous reaction, that this was a big win for Putin because he got prestige, he got a meeting, he got a ride in the beast. Yeah, well, he also has got 20,000 of his own citizens dying every month in this war. And he's also got all the sanctions on him that he had before. And if he really cared at all, well, I guess he wouldn't be the type of guy to risk and in fact, to commit to sending 20,000 citizens to their deaths. Putin's counterpart, Vladimir Zelinsky, met Trump at the White House today. It went better than the last time zelensky was in D.C. and he was flanked by four European leaders. The message was clear. Ukraine has allies. Is the United States such an ally? I think it depends on who irks Trump least. Maybe who irks him last. That's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the gist and Ashley Khan is our production coordinator. Astra Green does the socials. Leo Bounds the intern. We've got Philip Swissgood and Kathleen Sykes on the mandolin. Michelle Pascal lays out the red carpet for everyone. Improve and thanks for listening. Or maybe improve G Peru and thanks for listening. Yeah, that's the order.
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