The Gist — Katja Hoyer on Germany’s AfD and the Limits of Calling Someone a Nazi
August 18, 2025 | Host: Mike Pesca | Guest: Katja Hoyer

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca is joined by historian and journalist Katja Hoyer to discuss the meteoric rise of Germany’s far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) party. They unpack what’s fueling the party's unprecedented popularity, the German debate around banning far-right parties, the effectiveness and consequences of labeling political opponents as "Nazis," and the deeper questions of Germany’s political and social identity. Hoyer's expertise as an East German native and author shines as she illuminates the complex landscape behind headlines of “resurgent fascism.”

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Debate Over Banning the AfD

• Historic Context: Germany’s sensitivity to fascism, given its Nazi past, has made the question of banning the AfD a mainstream topic—unlike in other European countries facing far-right surges ([09:58]–[11:17]).
• Hoyer’s Argument Against a Ban:
  • Banning a party now leading in polls, Hoyer argues, risks undermining democracy and may be more dangerous than allowing their views to be openly debated.
  • Quote: "It seems a very dangerous and frankly unhelpful argument to make that you would want to ban what is now ... the largest political party... or the most popular, certainly, political party." — Katja Hoyer [11:12]
• Comparisons to France and the UK: While far-right parties are advancing in France and the UK, actual bans aren’t seriously considered there, highlighting Germany’s unique legal and cultural approach.

How “Nazi” Labels Affect Far-Right Parties

• Efficiency and Backlash: Pesca and Hoyer consider whether being labeled a Nazi is still a “kiss of death” in German politics.
  • "Any plausible connection to Nazism would damn anyone who wanted to have any sort of standing in public life. And here you have them being called Nazis, and it seems in some ways to have helped them." — Mike Pesca [14:37]
• Impact on AfD Moderation:
  • Hoyer suggests early accusations forced the AfD into a far-right corner, reducing their incentive to moderate.
  • Quote: "They were called Nazis right from the off... Why would you, once your reputation is going down that, that route, you know, row back from that?" — Katja Hoyer [12:00]
• Legal Precedents: She recounts a court case allowing a leading AfD figure, Björn Höcke, to be called a “fascist,” setting a precedent that normalized inflammatory rhetoric ([13:51]).

The Make-up and Appeal of the AfD

• Origins:
  • Started as a libertarian, Eurosceptic party in 2013, initially focused on opposition to the Euro.
• Shift to Anti-Immigrant Platform:
  • 2015's refugee crisis, and Angela Merkel’s open borders policy, left a gap on the center-right—quickly filled by the AfD, attracting voters disillusioned with mainstream parties ([16:30]).
  • Quote: "That was a topic that the AFD as the only political party really picked up... You know, there was nowhere for voters to go." — Katja Hoyer [17:05]
• Current Policy Breadth:
  • Main message: Tough stance on immigration.
  • Also channels economic dissatisfaction (energy crisis, industrial decline), sometimes promoting libertarian ideas mixed with anti-American sentiment.
• Internal Diversity & Contradiction:
  • Ranges from disgruntled conservatives to actual neo-Nazis, often lacking clear leadership and party coherence ([20:05]).

Social Class, Unions, and "Wokeness"

• The AfD as Germany’s Working-Class Party:
  • Many voters are union members—a shift traditional parties and unions have failed to acknowledge ([23:14]).
  • Germany’s "we have no classes" self-image obscures these social cleavages.
• Cultural Backlash:
  • Resentment towards identity politics and perceived political correctness help drive AfD support.
  • Quote: "Identity politics and wokeness... has become so mainstream across the political spectrum... center right and conservative voters... felt that in terms of identity politics and in terms of culture politics, they didn't really have an outlet for their disgruntlement." — Katja Hoyer [24:20]

Is Germany Doomed to Resurgent Fascism?

• Numbers Game:
  • Hoyer estimates around 10% of German society holds genuinely far-right views, but AfD’s polling at double that is more about mainstream discontent than any "awakening" of fascism ([26:58]).
  • Quote: "I just refuse to believe that the kind of rise in the last few years of the AfD... that people just woke up one morning and decided, 'I'm a neo-fascist now.'" — Katja Hoyer [27:10]
• Unaddressed Concerns:
  • Repeated immigration waves and perceived mishandling of energy policy have left voters frustrated with the political status quo.

Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• [11:12] Katja Hoyer: "It seems a very dangerous and frankly unhelpful argument to make that you would want to ban what is now ... the largest political party... or the most popular, certainly, political party."
• [12:00] Katja Hoyer: "They were called Nazis right from the off... Why would you, once your reputation is going down that, that route, you know, row back from that?"
• [14:37] Mike Pesca: "Any plausible connection to Nazism would damn anyone... And here you have them being called Nazis, and it seems in some ways to have helped them."
• [17:05] Katja Hoyer: "That was a topic that the AFD as the only political party really picked up... there was nowhere for voters to go."
• [23:14] Katja Hoyer: "A lot of them are [union members]... now Germany's working class party, which you say that to Germans and they just look at you like we don't have a working class anymore."
• [24:20] Katja Hoyer: "Identity politics and wokeness... has become so mainstream... center right and conservative voters... felt that... they didn't really have an outlet for their disgruntlement."
• [27:10] Katja Hoyer: "I just refuse to believe that... people just woke up one morning and decided, 'I'm a neo-fascist now.'"

Topic Timestamps

• [09:45] Start of interview with Katja Hoyer
• [09:58–11:17] Debate around banning the AfD; Germany’s unique legal/cultural stance
• [11:59–13:18] Comparing AfD to other European far-right parties; effect of "Nazi" labeling
• [14:37]–[15:18] Social consequences of Nazi accusations, and societal backlash
• [16:23]–[17:25] AfD’s policy focus (immigration, economic gripes)
• [18:49]–[20:40] Party’s contradictions, changing policies, and internal splits
• [23:10]–[24:44] Working-class appeal, union membership, and the "no classes" myth in Germany
• [26:41]–[28:28] Reflection: AfD’s rise—fascism or unaddressed voter concerns?

Summary & Relevance

This lively and incisive episode moves past surface-level narratives of Germany's far right. Hoyer and Pesca argue that the AfD’s surge is not straightforwardly a reawakening of fascism, but a symptom of neglected political anxieties—particularly on immigration, economic uncertainty, and a backlash to “wokeness.” Attempts to ostracize or ban the party have often backfired, entrenching divisions and fueling the AfD’s image as an oppositional force. By grounding the discussion in both history and current events, the episode offers a nuanced and timely analysis for anyone trying to understand the complexities of European far-right politics today.