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- [00:00]
Monday.com Advertiser
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- [00:30]
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- [01:04]
Mike Pesca
It's Tuesday, February 24, 2026 from Peach Fish Productions, it's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca, State of the Union tonight and I will be looking at one face. Please network pool camera, give me the close up of John Roberts. He'll be looking glum because I'm pretty sure the president will say something dumb. You know, the members of the Supreme Court are humans. Get behind those RO side there. It's a person. And we know this, right? We know that one of the reasons that Samuel Alito, for instance, has become so reactionary is that he feels pushed in the corner by critics and neighbors and people who are criticizing his wife's vexillology choices. And is it any coincidence that of the three Trump appointees, it was Kavanaugh who went so reactionary with Alito and Thomas, Was it his jurisprudence beforehand that would have hinted that he, rather than Gorsuch, who is this temperate figure on the court, or at least, least was by the last ruling that he would become so, let's say radicalized by signing on to an interpretation of IPA and tariffs that's quite plainly in contradiction to the law. They're humans. They react. And I think what might be going on is that Trump is forcing them, will be forcing them into an overreaction. Because Trump, I will allow that he has good tactics. He has good tactics for the fast twitch, instant media world he lives in. But strategy, which requires a couple months or even a year or long time thinking, not his strong suit. You know, there was a lot of analysis about the recent Supreme Court ruling, cynical analysis, I would say, that posited that the Supreme Court wasn't doing anything right or anything noble Just in fact, saving Trump from himself because the tariffs are such bad economic policy. You take the tariffs off the table as a tool, Trump can no longer use the tool. Therefore, the economy will get better and Trump will be helped. I, you know, I think that that's way too many links in the chain. I think that six of the justices just said, well, this is clearly against the law. And I also think that it won't save Trump from himself because Trump won't allow himself to be saved. Now, to be sure, there were times when I said, ooh, Trump is really doing something that's not in his self interest, like all the election denialism. And I got to say it was in his self interest. You don't want to admit that, but if he didn't have this narrative of the election being stolen, he'd have been discarded as another loser Republican candidate. That's what Republicans especially. But a lot of political parties do. You lost. You were one termer. We're moving on. So without the myth, without the lie of a stolen election, that guy probably wouldn't be president today. But he doesn't always act within his self interest. He gets lucky a lot. And when anyone else tries to intervene, which I don't even think happened in this case, but when anyone else tries to help Trump, Trump gets his back up and says, no, I'm always the main character in my story. For him, it's a triumph. I think for history, it will be a strategy. Trump is dedicated to making sure no one will be able to take credit for helping him. So therefore, his approval rating is at 37% or lower. And I don't think that John Roberts is going to have a smile on his face anytime soon on the show today. Well, you know what? Before I tell you what's on this show, let me tell you what's on how to. The new episode of how to Today is about immigrating to the Netherlands. But wait, as a throuple or maybe a polyamorous relationship, do you think the Dutch are okay with that? The great thing in Dutch immigration law that is that a partner doesn't need to necessarily have an exclusive relationship with, with whoever they're bringing over. So then, excellent news, because even though you, you know, like you said, you're married, but instead, if you wish to bring your unmarried partner, that's possible as long as you can prove that it's a genuine relationship. So at least there is quite a bit of leeway there. At least there is in the Netherlands. It was a Dutch immigration lawyer giving advice To Dan Savage, who is thinking of emigrating. Check it out on how to and in the spiel today on this program, the gist anxiety as marketing opportunity. But first, we're joined again by the founders of NYU Laws Meltzer center for Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging. Now you might notice dei, that is normally the acronym Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging would be DIB And Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow are rebranding the E in DEI to Equality. The new book is called How Equality Wins. A New Vision for an Inclusive America. Yoshino and Glasgow, up next. I'm wearing True Work right now. No joke. And it's not exactly because I was going outside on a winter job site, but I was mucking about in the snow and True Work Built Performance workwear like it matters. Cause it matters. You want the history. There was a trade professional who's also a smart guy who knew fabrics and said, if I wear these jeans, they just get soaking wet. And then if you compare it to brands like I'll name them Carhartt and Dickies, their traditional cotton based gear, it gets heavy when wet and it's just not the same. Or the case with True Work Advanced Performance Fabrics. Of course they have the moisture wicking. What do you think? They're gonna put you out there in the world without the wicking. The best wicking this way that comes. And they're wind resistant and they're insulated. And I gotta say, they're good looking, they're cool looking. I wear a lot of True Work all the time and I sometimes even break my rule, which is no two clothing items of the same brand. Then you say, oh, what am I playing for the team at this point? Point I pretty much am. Don't let cheap gear slow you down this winter. Upgrade your day with workwear built like it matters. Get 15% off your first order@True Work.com with code. The gist, that's T R U E R K dot com.
- [07:28]
Monday.com Advertiser
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- [07:58]
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- [08:28]
Mike Pesca
Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow are back to talk about their book, How Equality A New Vision for an Inclusive America. And the book lays out seven practical strategies from revealing the stakes to supporting dissent. And the two scholars have suggested that in an ideal world they'd like to combine approaches like lifting up disadvantaged groups and leveling the playing fields. But of course, we know the recent Supreme Court rulings and the broader backlash to dei, some of those tools are off the table. So I ask you gentlemen, looking at this moment of reassessment, which parts of the backlash or actual legal pushback do you see as legitimate correctives to excesses of di? And which changes do you think risk undermining the broader goals that you're trying to preserve?
- [09:14]
Kenji Yoshino
That's a great question. I mean, the one that most obviously comes to mind for me is our chapter on supporting dissent, where we critique elements in the pro DEI community that have tended to enforce a kind of ideological orthodoxy, to be nervous about or try to shut down debate and disagreement, and also to shame people who engage in non inclusive behavior or who make mistakes. So we avoid using the term cancel culture in the book. We find that that term gets people's backs up a lot and often on the left at least, people will deny that cancel culture even exists and say, oh, look at all of the people who have come back from being cancelled and have thriving careers and so on. We wanted to sidestep that debate and say, look, whatever you think about cancel culture, it's hard to deny that there have been practices of shaming where, you know, people who make a mistake or who disagree with some position that's common within the pro DEI community feel shut down, even if it's just a roll of the eyes or some other practice that makes them condescended to. And so that chapter is really about saying we as a community need to do a better job of welcoming ideas, even ones that make us feel uncomfortable, to tolerate people experience expressing their point of view. And then also we need to not just move from kind of cancelling to softer methods of correction, but also sometimes to even just let it go when people make mistakes. Like we give an example of a senior colleague of ours who has repeatedly used the word sexual preference, which we don't like, it's not really favored within the LGBTQ community to use that term anymore. But, you know, our view is, look, we're going to seem like scolds and meddlesome if we go in and lecture this person about saying sexual orientation rather than sexual preference. He's well meaning, he's pro gay. Let's just let it go. So that's a good example where I would say no court is telling the DEI community that they need to change their practices, but we think it's going to lead to a healthier culture overall nonetheless.
- [11:25]
Mike Pesca
Right. So maybe some extremist sentiment became non rebuttable within the DEI community and you're trying to pull that back. But what about things that aren't allowed? I'll just ask you about diversity statements, which were the de facto or sometimes de jure requirement that, for instance, college professors, as you know, come in and they talk about their diversity plan and they talk about how much they support this. And there have been occasions when, as a free speech issue, a professor either literally didn't support it or just didn't want to have to be compelled to support it. From what I understand, these diversity statements can no longer be required. Is that a good thing?
- [12:06]
David Glasgow
Yeah, I think generally it is a good thing not to have people swear these loyalty oaths, because when people swear loyalty oaths, you very rarely persuade anybody to change their view. So one of our points in supporting dissent is not just that dissent is really important for the other side, but it's really important for the pro DEI side as well. Because if you force people to say stuff, oftentimes what you get is preference, falsification. People will sign the diversity statement without believing anything. Or alternatively, you'll get, and this is a subtler point made by Natalie Wynn, you'll get very fragile allegiances. So even if someone does agree with you, like they say trans women are women, because that's what all the nice kind people are saying. If they just absorb it as a slogan or as a diversity statement that they've signed, they haven't really grappled the deeper moral argument. So when someone pushes them on it and says, well, do you think that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sports? And what does that mean for Title ix? They don't have really good answers, whereas the really good answers do exist. So one of the problems of these kind of loyalty oaths, of which I would put the diversity statements as one, is it's not just bad for the other side, for the conscientious Dissenter. It's bad for our own side because it leads to preference falsification and fragilec support.
- [13:19]
Mike Pesca
So I want to summarize, and you help me. There is a change in di. Some of it is forced upon us by the courts, some of it by the executive and how their moves have been ruled upon. This is an opportunity. You're going to brand it as an opportunity. To some extent, your movement, the DEI movement, has to be less rigid. To some extent, they just have to comply with the law, even if they don't like it. You've articulated a couple of ways in which maybe the law, it doesn't matter where it came from, we'll give the opportunity to have more equality, which should be the ultimate goal. So if your ideas are taken up, and I suspect that to a large extent they will be, because you have prominent positions and are leaders in the field, give me an idea. In four years, you could either speculate or not speculate about who the President will be, but what big changes will be done different from how we talked and lived DEI before 2025.
- [14:24]
Kenji Yoshino
So one big change that I would like to see happen is a move toward more systemic debiasing practices. We've already touched on this to some extent, but a lot of DEI that organizations adopted after the murder of George Floyd, at least in some organizations that only jumped on the bandwagon then, I would describe as performative. You know, people would put together biased training programs without assessing any rigour associated with those programs, or they would make people sign loyalty oaths, or they would run a bunch of scattershot programs to celebrate heritage months and put out social media statements. But there wasn't a lot of deep work being done inside some of these organisations to make sure that their systems are actually fair and promoting equal opportunity. So I would like to see that be a significant focus of this work going forward. And, you know, another thing that I think is likely to happen in DEI is a shift from targeted programs to universal programs. We're already seeing that to some extent in the legal landscape. Organisation after organization is being sued for having programs like grants, scholarships, internships, fellowships and so on that are reserved exclusively for members of particular groups. Like saying this grant program is just for black women, or this internship program is just for the LGBTQ community and so on. We're seeing those being opened up to allow anyone to participate who is committed to the values underlying that program. I suspect that what DEI will look like, say, four years from now is going to be much more of that programs that are still thematised around promoting values of equality and inclusion, but allow universal participation in those programs in a
- [16:15]
Mike Pesca
fig leaf way or in a substantive way, do you think?
- [16:18]
Kenji Yoshino
Well, I guess this gets to the question of what will happen or what should happen. I would like to see it occur in a substantive way. I would hope that organization, no one
- [16:26]
Mike Pesca
I've ever asked that question to is a fig leaf. I'm just going for the fig leaf.
- [16:29]
Kenji Yoshino
No, no. I mean, I want organizations to do it in a substantive way that brings as many allies as possible into the tent of promoting these values of inclusion and opportunity. But we'll have to wait and see whether or not organizations want to do that, because what we saw, as I mentioned, after the murder of George Floyd is I think some folks just wanted to do the performative fig leaf thing that made themselves look good. I think now is an opportunity to say, all right, if we're really serious about this, then let's try to find ways of doing this in a way that is more substantive.
- [17:00]
David Glasgow
And Mike, I would just add here, if I may, that the fig leaf strategy is even less viable here than it may be in your other interviews, because the Supreme Court has explicitly told us you cannot do indirectly what you cannot do directly. So if you're just pouring old wine into new bottles and saying, oh, we're going to call this a first gen program or a low SES program, but it's actually a race based program, then you're just as liable as if you, you know, the court is going to tear off the fig leaf essentially and say, this is a race based program. And if I could also add, like, you know, four years from now, another thing I would love to have change is that we would welcome more groups into the tent of dei. In one of our chapters, we talk about three different claims that people have made about DEI that we think are really reasonable, and we call them claims of enforcement, claims of symmetry, and claims of extension. Claims of enforcement would be, for goodness sakes, religion is protected under the first amendment of the Constitution. It's protected under Title VII of the Civil Rights act of 1964. Why is it that diversity, equity and inclusion programs have historically been much less attentive to religion than they have been to race or gender. That would be an example of a claim of enforcement and already exists in civil rights law, but not in dei. Claims of symmetry. This is where I'll get myself into trouble, is really to approach this as a public health kind of issue or as a physician would and to go to where the pain or where the hurt is, rather than just assuming that because somebody belongs to a demographically dominant group that they're going to be dominant in every aspect of their lives. So this is boys are achieving less than girls in secondary and elementary school education. Men are dying by suicide at twice the rate. Simply because they're male doesn't mean that they're deprived of the solicitude of dei. I would really love for us to move in that direction of just going where the pain is rather than making assumptions which is obviously inimical to dei. Then the last one claims of extension is there are lots of groups that are not protected under law or protected under current DEI that we would love to see more embrace. So I think about veterans, I think about people of low socioeconomic status or first gen individuals, a diploma divide being one of the greatest divides in terms of life success in America. So four years from now I hope we'll have a much, much bigger tent regardless of what we call it and welcome all those new groups in.
- [19:17]
Mike Pesca
So in order to affirm that this wasn't a fig leaf, they'll have to well, you tell me you're an eminent law professor, will there will there be a sort of inverse quota that they'll look to see that a certain percentage of scholarships or opportunities went to people who weren't people of color in order to qualify as not violating the law?
- [19:41]
David Glasgow
Yeah, that's exactly right. Like if you're going to have a first gen program, then it's a really good idea to just prove your bona fides by making sure first gen meaning first generation to go to college. For those listeners who might not be familiar with that term, but it's a really good idea to have some of those first gen individuals be not people of color. Right. So choose the white kid from Appalachia who was the first generation to go to college for your program in order to emphasize your bona fides of this is not a fig leaf. This is really a first gen program, not a race based program in disguise.
- [20:17]
Mike Pesca
What about the working class just as a category that could benefit from the new DEI with D being equality possible?
- [20:25]
Kenji Yoshino
Yeah, I mean this is one of the categories we talk about in the claims of extension of saying working class individuals are not explicitly protected as a category under law in the way that say race or sex is protected. And it's not as though people within the DEI community have completely ignored issues of class inequality. So I don't want to suggest that, but it has been kind of under emphasized in the community so if you look at diversity statements, diversity goals, diversity programs within organizations, they are often thematised around the kind of categories protected by law like sexual orientation and race and gender. And there has historically been less emphasis on class. So we think organisations should be doing more. For example, there is research by sociologist Lauren Rivera that indicates that a lot of elite firms screen out individuals from lower socioeconomic backgrounds in order to hire the kind of economic elite into their organization. So you can improve your hiring practices to ensure that you are not biased against lower socioeconomic status or working class individuals. You could make sure, for instance, that college degree requirements are not in every job that you're posting, that you're really thinking, seriously, do we need to have a college education for this particular job? And that is something that even the current head of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Andrea Lucas, has said organizations can lawfully do. So even people who are virulent opponents of DEI have been on the record like Andrea Lucas saying, yeah, programs that are about promoting, you know, working class individuals and making sure they have access to opportunities and jobs. That is a perfectly lawful thing that you can and should be doing.
- [22:11]
Mike Pesca
Well, of course. Why does she do this? I think there are political considerations of who the their base of voters may be. Now, I want to take a couple seconds to ask you about what actually has happened under DEI and then if the predictions of what would happen met your expectations. So first of all, we talk about this landmark Supreme Court case and we do see a couple of college classes that have been admitted in anticipation. And then under the new laws which say you can't take into account race. And to my mind, or I think the statistics show that it is far less than the decimation or hollowing out of black and Hispanic students in undergraduate institutions that has happened. The New York Times did a write up of 66 schools and they found that there was a 1% drop from, and these are elite schools, from 7% to 6% acceptance and from 14 to 13% and almost no rise in or subsequent concomitant rise in white and Asian applications. Some schools, it happened greatly. Johns Hopkins, 18% more Asian admissions and didn't come at the cost of black students. But did what actually happened meet your expectations? Because I know it didn't meet the most dire expectations of the people who were ruin this decision. Go ahead.
- [23:36]
David Glasgow
I was a little bit surprised by it, frankly, because when we saw the state bans on affirmative action, we saw much more precipitous drops. And the way that I.
- [23:46]
Mike Pesca
So California did a ban, we had a history of this, we anticipated what would happen, which is, for instance, at ucla, a true, I think, use this word before hollowing out of the number of blacks in the undergraduate classes.
- [23:57]
David Glasgow
Exactly. And I think that the way to explain it, at least I would hypothesize, is that we got smart like we saw that happen, and then affirmative action got much more modest. So it suggests that the thumb and the scale that was being placed or the plus factor that was being given to black Latinx Native American communities was much smaller than was that our opponents or opponents of affirmative action would characterize it as being. It's a kind of good news, bad news story, frankly. Because the way this often comes up in my world is someone says, well, Kenji, can I just put a tiny, tiny tiebreaker thumb on the scale for the person of color who's underrepresented when two people are equally qualified? My answer is absolutely not. Of course you can't do that. Harvard wasn't saying, oh, you're black, you're into Harvard. Harvard was saying, here are these two equally qualified people. Roughly both of them would succeed hugely at Harvard. But because of this history of discrimination, and that continues on to the present, we're going to put a thumb on the scale in favor of the person who's underrepresented. If the Supreme Court is saying that's not permissible, then tiebreaker preferences, even very small ones, are no longer going to be permissible on the basis of race. But the good news about the data that you describe from my perspective is to say that organizations seem to be doing quite a modest, thoughtful job in the way that they were doling out these plus factors relative to how they had been characterized as operating.
- [25:29]
Mike Pesca
Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow are officials at the Meltzer center for Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging at nyu. Thank you both so much.
- [25:39]
Kenji Yoshino
Thank you, Mike. Been a pleasure.
- [25:41]
David Glasgow
Thanks so much, Mike.
- [25:49]
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- [26:53]
Mike Pesca
And now the spiel. Anxiety is an opportunity. It is an opportunity to sell you something. Anxious about your kids getting into college? Of course you are. We've built an entire civic religion around that admissions letter. Here's your SAT prep. Here is the private college counselor. Here's the resume padding. Volunteer trip to build a gazebo in Belize. You know if words with Z's in them make up for lack of A's on your high school transcript? Anxious about the environment? Of course you are. The planet is on fire, have you heard? So buy that stainless steel straw. Ban that plastic bag. Swap your guilt for a reusable tote bag. Maybe the tote bag will have a pro environmental logo on it. It may move the carbon needle so little it can't be seen, but it might move your feelings slightly more than that. Anxious about your health? Course you are. Every week there's a new molecule trying to kill you. They have found better, deeper ways to look deeper and better into plastic so that now we can measure the nano plastic. And remember when there was a lot of microplastic? Now there's hundreds times more. Nanoplastic, huh? That seems to follow. But when it comes to your feelings, just follow them.
- [28:04]
Kenji Yoshino
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- [28:05]
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- [28:18]
Mike Pesca
Hydrate. No more than that. Got a double your hydration, triple your hydration. Buy a cup that has squad goals for hydration. So now you're carrying a Stanley Steamer type vessel the size of a baby moose. Because hydration has become who you are. Not something you drink. Anxious about the country, about inflation, about democracy. Yeah, there's a podcast and a protest, an entire media network for all those things. When economic numbers improve but the public still says the economy stinks, you never hear an anchor person asking, why are voters misreading the data? It's always channeling the mood of the anxious. And the mood of the public is always anxious.
- [29:02]
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- [29:10]
Mike Pesca
So the question is, why isn't the public feeling it? I Don't know. Because all the public ever feels is anxiety because we're trying to sell them something. Biden says things are improving. Oh my God, is he derided? Is out of touch. Trump gets enraged. Anyone would even ask the question, same numbers, same sometimes unfair and unanswerable question. Why isn't the public feeling it? Same refusal to consider. I don't know. Maybe the public's wrong or they don't have a good time horizon. Or it might take a couple months to price this reality in that anxiety is real because your feelings are real. But the ability to purchase a few more things than you did a year ago, that's also real to anxiety is a business model. Increase the unease, increase the opportunity and you don't even have to increase the unease. It just happens. Even valid anxiety, like with the economy as I just talked about, tariffs aren't helping. But now that the Supreme Court has struck down the mechanism by which Trump imposed tariffs, has the reporting been, oh, things should get better now? No. All the headlines I saw was this just injects more uncertainty into the markets. Concerns about private credit and potentially attacking Iran. Those would take top billing if it weren't for the uncertainty increase and the tariffs. Put it all together. There's a lot of uncertainty. Yeah, or valid anxiety about America drifting towards autocracy that becomes a product. Subscribe to a historian who reminds us we survived worse. Buy the daily reassurance that this isn't 1933 or buy the daily confirmation that it just might be. That's another form of selling the anxiety induced product that says, hey, you're not crazy. We do live in an age of abundance. You know that, right? Abundant food, abundant goods, abundant information. In fact, superfluous. Too much of all those things. And so what does that cause us? The answer is anxiety. Scarcity is not the engine. Anxiety is. Classic marketing theory says a great product solves a problem. But most marketing today isn't about solving a problem. It's it's about maintaining. Just enough worry that you'll keep paying. To manage is now the ultimate consumer good. And that's it for today's show. Corey War is the producer of the Just Kathleen Sykes. She edits the Gist list, she puts it together, she slaps it up there at Mike Pesca that substack.com Jeff Craig edit so much of the show. You know, he's the editor of how to. All those words are chopped together by him. He does our videos as well. Ben Astaire is our booking coordinator and Michelle Pesca oversees it all. Peru? G Peru? Duparu and thanks for listening.
- [32:11]
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- [32:39]
Mike Pesca
We're lost. I'm going to pull over and ask that man for directions.
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Mike Pesca
We're looking to get to the campground. Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
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Mike Pesca
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
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