The Gist Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: Kenji Yoshino & David Glasgow: Saving DEI
Date: February 23, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca
Guests: Kenji Yoshino & David Glasgow (Meltzer Center, NYU School of Law)

Overview

This episode tackles the fate and future of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in America, focusing on how recent legal and societal changes—particularly Supreme Court decisions and the Trump administration—have challenged DEI initiatives. Host Mike Pesca is joined by Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow, authors of How Equality Wins: A New Vision for an Inclusive America. The discussion probes the rebranding and philosophical shifts from “equity” to “equality,” the distinction between “lifting” and “leveling,” and practical strategies for those still striving for inclusion in a more conservative legal environment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rebranding from Equity to Equality

[09:59–12:01]

• Pesca notes the shift from the language of “equity” to “equality” in the book’s title and asks Yoshino to explain the choice.
• Yoshino:
  • Equity, though nuanced, is fraught and mistrusted by many due to associations with forced sameness of outcomes, leading to lengthy debates about its definition.
  • Equality is simpler and more universally accepted; “talent is everywhere, opportunity is not, and equality is what closes the gap.”
  • Quote:

    “When people hear the word 'equity,' regardless of what you believe the word means, to many it conveys this idea that there's a sameness of result...If we use the term substantive equality or organizational equality, people would be completely comfortable with it.” (Kenji Yoshino, 10:38)

• Pesca observes that the “E”—equity—in DEI is often the most controversial component, sometimes used ambiguously by activists.

2. Defining and Distinguishing Equality

[13:05–14:55]

• Glasgow:

  • Argues against the classic meme of “equality” vs. “equity” (the baseball boxes image) and instead focuses on equal opportunity.
  • The real goal: fairness, ensuring identity factors don't obstruct success.
  • Quote:

    “We're trying to actually create the kind of merit-based decision making that opponents of DEI often say that therefore. We think that it's actually more on our side to kind of create that playing field.” (David Glasgow, 13:05)

• Yoshino:

  • Equality’s roots run deep in American tradition, historically expanding over generations to include more people.
  • Quote:

    “Every generation meant that who counted as part of 'we the people' expanded because of equality... we've always chosen to be a bigger, more encompassing 'we the people.'” (Kenji Yoshino, 14:55)

3. From 'Lifting' to 'Leveling' – A Strategic and Legal Shift in DEI

[16:18–19:04]

• Yoshino:
  • “Lifting” involves actively giving underrepresented groups a boost—e.g., affirmative action, extra points, or preferential consideration.
  • “Leveling” means removing bias systemically, so everyone truly starts from the same line.
  • Example:
    • Symphony orchestras—historically, almost all-male—could have instituted lifting (e.g., extra credit for women) but instead adopted blind auditions (leveling). This led to a dramatic increase in women hired (from 5% to 35% between 1971 and 2016).
  • Quote:

    “If you can't discriminate between two people, we say you can't discriminate against one of them.” (Kenji Yoshino, 17:35)

• Pesca: Asks for real-world examples differentiating lifting (affirmative action) and leveling (blind auditions, structured interviews, bias training).

4. Legal and Practical Constraints Post-Supreme Court Rulings

[19:04–22:14]

• Glasgow:

  • After the 2023 Supreme Court ruling against affirmative action, proactive “lifting” is almost entirely off-limits legally for most U.S. organizations.
  • International comparison: Countries like Australia still use quotas or targets; U.S. law no longer allows it.
  • The environment demands that DEI practitioners find ways to promote inclusion and opportunity without resorting to now-risky practices.
  • Quote:

    “Let’s cop to the fact that we’re stuck with this conservative supermajority Supreme Court...So we need to find practical strategies for advancing equality even within that constrained environment.” (David Glasgow, 19:41)

• Yoshino:

  • Even if lifting is unavailable, “aggressive leveling” from early education through hiring can close opportunity gaps.
  • Underrepresentation in orchestras, for example, is probably not due to bias at the final audition, but to unequal opportunities earlier in life.
  • Quote:

    “If we had leveling practices for Black, Indigenous, maybe to a certain extent, Latinx individuals, and we leveled from cradle to that audition process, then we would be absolutely fine.” (Kenji Yoshino, 23:33)

5. The Limits and Continuity of Leveling

[23:55–26:49]

• Pesca: Raises the question—can one “level” too much? Is there a cutoff where intervention becomes inappropriate?
• Glasgow:
  • Leveling is always appropriate because it’s about creating objectively fair, debiased systems (e.g., transparent criteria for promotions, structured interviews).
• Yoshino:
  • Agrees, saying research shows women and men are evaluated differently—women judged by results, men by potential. Leveling reforms benefit the many, not just individuals.
  • Quote:

    “That was great for that woman. That was great for that board, but it wasn't great for all the other women who are being evaluated unfairly through these performance systems.” (Kenji Yoshino, 26:28)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the confusion over ‘equity’:

  “If we use the term substantive equality or organizational equality, people would be completely comfortable with it...” (Yoshino, 10:38)

• On DEI’s public image:

  “Many people hear DEI and they think unfairness… people who are unqualified being shoved into positions or elevated… Whereas if you say actually what we're all for as Americans is equality and fairness…” (Yoshino, 11:16)

• On moving strategically post-rulings:

  “Let’s cop to the fact that we're stuck with this conservative supermajority Supreme Court...we need to find practical strategies for advancing equality even within that constrained environment.” (Glasgow, 19:41)

• On the orchestra study as a metaphor:

  “If you can't discriminate between two people, we say you can't discriminate against one of them.” (Yoshino, 17:35)

Important Timestamps

• [09:00] – Introduction of guests and book; context for DEI’s recent setbacks.
• [10:38] – Why the shift from “equity” to “equality.”
• [13:05] – Debating the “baseball meme” and equal opportunity.
• [16:18] – Defining the shift from “lifting” to “leveling” and real-life examples.
• [19:41] – Legal barriers to affirmative action and new strategies under current law.
• [23:33] – Leveling from early education to adulthood; closing opportunity gaps.
• [24:29] – Should leveling continue through all life stages?
• [26:49] – The impact of performance evaluation bias and the case for broad reform.

Tone and Language

The discussion is frank, clear, and analytical, with grounded calls for pragmatism and focus on what can be achieved given current legal realities. Yoshino and Glasgow emphasize that “equality” resonates more with Americans and can recapture support for inclusion, while Pesca probes for real-world, actionable distinctions and acknowledges skepticism around DEI.

Conclusion

This episode delivers a thoughtful, timely conversation on how to re-imagine DEI efforts in a less legally permissive, more skeptical America. The authors argue for a pivot from equity-based “lifting” to equality-based “leveling,” with the goal of fostering fairness and inclusion in ways that are both effective and legally sustainable. The metaphor of the orchestra audition serves as a powerful narrative for how systemic reforms—rather than individual boosts—can drive enduring change. The dialog remains rooted in the belief that, while tactics may change, the pursuit of “a bigger, more encompassing ‘we the people’” remains a deeply American mission.