The Gist: "Kenneth Vogel on the 'Sh*tbag Business'"

Date: January 23, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Kenneth P. Vogel, Reporter at The New York Times
Book Discussed: Devil's Advocates: The Hidden Story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, and the Washington Insiders on the Payrolls of Corrupt Foreign Interests

Episode Overview

This episode explores the shadowy and often ethically questionable world of foreign lobbying in Washington, D.C. Host Mike Pesca interviews New York Times reporter Kenneth Vogel, discussing insights from Vogel's new book, Devil's Advocates, which investigates the influence industry around corrupt foreign interests, how major U.S. political figures got involved, and why reform is elusive. The conversation dives into the activities of notorious lobbyists like Paul Manafort, Robert Strick, and Rudy Giuliani, as well as Hunter Biden's business dealings abroad.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legality and Entrenchment of Lobbying

Timestamps: 06:48 – 09:50

• Lobbying is protected by the Constitution: Vogel explains that not only is lobbying permitted (“the right to petition government for redress of grievances”), but efforts to truly ban it are legally and practically impossible.
• Regulation appetite is low: “The desire for regulation, the appetite, not even close to the desire to regulate the Second Amendment…” (Pesca, 08:12)
• Scandals prompt attention, not reform: Big scandals sometimes briefly increase calls for disclosure and reform (e.g., after the Mueller/Russia investigation), but actual changes are rare due to lack of sustained public pressure.

2. The "Flood the Zone" Strategy & Public Desensitization

Timestamps: 09:50 – 13:39

• Too many scandals to track: The sheer number and complexity of financial and ethical controversies, especially under Trump, led to public exhaustion and lack of focus on any one issue.

• Democratic focus: Much of the public outrage during Trump's first term went toward issues like the use of Trump properties by foreign governments and the Russia probe, but this energy wasn’t directed at systemic reform.

  “If people had read your book, they might be outraged, but then again, if they had to prioritize, it would probably be 30th on the list of outrages.” — Mike Pesca [09:50]

3. Manafort and Foreign Lobbying as Industry

Timestamps: 13:39 – 24:49

• No “smoking gun” in Russia probe: Vogel notes the Mueller report didn’t find definitive criminal conspiracy (pesca: "Is the misstep...that there really wasn't anything there?").

• Manafort’s tactics: Sharing polling data with Russian-aligned operatives was less about a master plan and more of a bid to show value and influence.

• Manafort as industry pioneer: Compared to figures like Bernie Madoff and Charles Ponzi, Manafort is seen as the “forefather of the shady foreign lobbying industry.”

  “He was the sort of forefather of this industry... there are still people in this industry who regard him as like, something of a hero.” — Kenneth Vogel [20:36]

• Moral relativism: Manafort justified working for unsavory regimes as facilitating communication and furthering U.S. objectives (anti-communism, during the Cold War, for example).

4. Personal Motivations & Justifications

Timestamps: 24:49 – 28:29

• Manafort's perspective post-prison: After being pardoned by Trump, Manafort sought to refurbish his reputation and return to the business, pivoting his pitch to match the grievances of clients facing Western sanctions.
• Not always handsomely rewarded: Despite his notoriety, Manafort’s legal troubles significantly diminished his wealth.

5. The 'Sh*tbag Business' and Its New Faces: Robert Strick

Timestamps: 29:01 – 34:21

• Disruption under Trump: Outsiders like Strick, with minor Trump campaign connections, found new opportunities when traditional D.C. gatekeepers were sidelined.

• The business’s new money: Foreign clients, often less knowledgeable about U.S. politics, are susceptible to lobbyists who oversell their access and influence.

• Emblematic phrase:

  “He dubs it the Shitbag Business. So that was actually the title that I wanted to use for my book...But the publisher didn't think I'd be able to sell it...” — Kenneth Vogel [31:46]

• Strick vs. Manafort: Strick "over-disclosed," using the Foreign Agent Registration Act database as a marketing tool, unlike Manafort who concealed many actions.

6. Rudy Giuliani’s Shifting Role

Timestamps: 34:21 – 36:10

• From public servant to influence-peddler: After initially offering “security consulting,” Giuliani leveraged his status as "America's Mayor" and later his Trump connections, becoming a sought-after Washington influencer for foreign interests.
• Blurred lines between consulting and lobbying: Even early services were more about implied U.S. influence than technical advice.

7. Psychology and Ethics of Key Actors

Timestamps: 36:10 – 38:13

• Money as the sole motivator: Pesca argues that for figures like Manafort and Giuliani, doing good was less relevant than doing well financially.

• Hunter Biden’s rationalization: Biden acknowledged he took lucrative opportunities because of his father but offered post hoc justifications, e.g., “an important pillar of Ukrainian independence” due to energy sector involvement.

  “He [Hunter] acknowledges freely in his memoir that, like, no, he needed money. And like, this Burisma payday was like an easy one for very little work.” — Kenneth Vogel [37:37]

8. Democratic Defensiveness & Hunter Biden's Awareness

Timestamps: 38:13 – 43:02

• Democratic apoplexy: While Democrats claimed Hunter’s dealings were mere partisan smears, Hunter himself seemed aware it was a “bad look,” according to both his memoir and the laptop emails.

• U.S. system not so unique: Vogel notes that the "pay-to-play" mentality is not exclusive to less-developed democracies.

  “Maybe we're not so different from these parts of the world that have real pay to play political cultures.” — Kenneth Vogel [41:32]

9. Legal Exposure Under FARA

Timestamps: 43:02 – 46:28

• Clear legal vulnerability: Evidence suggests Hunter Biden should have registered as a foreign agent (FARA) for several activities, especially in Romania and Ukraine.

• Prosecutorial leverage: Federal prosecutors used uncharged FARA violations as a bargaining chip in tax and gun-related plea negotiations.

  “There are a number of examples where what Hunter Biden did, I think probably did clear the bar for registration under this Foreign Agents Registration act, which he did not do, therefore, he is violating Farah in those cases or there's a case to be made.” — Kenneth Vogel [46:17]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the normalization of foreign money in U.S. politics:
  “There are people who are willing to take the money to do that, and Manafort was one of them.” — Kenneth Vogel [16:19]

• On public focus and the Trump era:
  “There’s just so many outrages dealing with the interactions between the Trump family and their business and foreign governments …that it’s really tough to keep track.” — Kenneth Vogel [12:39]

• On how the biz got its name:
  “He [Rob Strick] dubs it the Shitbag Business. So that was actually the title that I wanted to use for my book…the publisher didn't think I'd be able to sell it…” — Kenneth Vogel [31:46]

• On the naivete of Democratic talking points:
  "In retrospect…the defense of Hunter is…sort of laughable." — Kenneth Vogel [39:21]

Episode Structure & Useful Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------|---------------| | Opening commentary (Thrill/Spectacle) | 00:03 – 06:46 | | Introduction of Kenneth Vogel/Devil's Advocates book | 06:46 | | Lobbying, legitimacy, and reform | 06:48 – 09:50 | | Flood-the-zone, outrage exhaustion | 09:50 – 13:39 | | Manafort, Mueller, Russia, and ‘the biz’ | 13:39 – 24:49 | | Manafort post-prison and new client pitch | 24:49 – 28:29 | | Robert Strick and the ‘Sh*tbag Business’ | 29:01 – 34:21 | | Giuliani’s trajectory | 34:21 – 36:10 | | The ethics of influence-peddling | 36:10 – 38:13 | | Hunter Biden’s rationalizations | 38:13 – 43:02 | | FARA exposure for Hunter Biden | 43:02 – 46:28 | | Outro | 46:52 |

Tone and Style

Pesca’s style is "responsibly provocative," context-heavy, and peppered with sarcastic, self-aware asides. Vogel shares inside stories with a mix of objectivity, dry humor, and world-weariness. Both speakers take a skeptical but detailed look at the often grubby reality of Washington influence-peddling.

Summary Takeaway

This episode reveals the scale and shamelessness of the “sh*tbag business” of Washington lobbying for foreign interests, showing that it’s persistent, hard to reform, and populated by characters fueled far more by money than morals. Vogel’s book provides a roadmap to understanding why U.S. influence is for sale—and why attempts to clean up the system repeatedly fall short. The overlap between money, access, and the subversion of anti-corruption norms is not just an anomaly, but a feature of American politics.