Larry Charles: "I Finally Had to Fire the Kid"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Gist

Episode: Larry Charles: "I Finally Had to Fire the Kid"
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Larry Charles (Comedy writer/director, author of Comedy Samurai: 40 Years of Blood, Guts and Laughter)
Date: March 23, 2026
Runtime: ~30 minutes

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Gist is a wide-ranging, incisive conversation between host Mike Pesca and legendary comedy writer/director Larry Charles. The discussion centers on Charles’s experiences in comedy, the creative philosophy behind his most iconic works (Borat, Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm), and the nuances of audience reaction, character likability, and the evolution of comedy itself. The episode is split into two major segments: an in-depth interview with Larry Charles (main section), followed by Pesca's poignant reflection on the late Robert Mueller.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Bear Scene in Borat and On-Set Insanity (09:53–13:23)

• Larry recounts the real challenges and danger of filming the famous bear scene in Borat (09:53).
  • Bear training: The team attended “bear camp” in Texas so the bears would know their scent.
  • Bear unpredictability: Trainers started off cautious but became lax; the film crew often wondered if everyone, including the bear, would “be cool.”
• One child actor was unable to run away from the bear, forcing Larry to fire him for his safety, which inspired the episode title:
  • Notable Quote:

    “He became like, transfixed the way a mouse does when a snake is about to, like, eat them. ... I finally, I had to fire the kid ... but by the same token, I probably saved his life.” —Larry Charles (12:55)

2. Comedic Taboos and Audience Reactions (esp. Borat’s Naked Fight) (13:23–18:49)

• The naked fight scene: Pesca calls it the wildest audience laugh he ever witnessed in a theater. Charles explains why the scene “worked” so profoundly.
  • The emotional underpinning—Borat’s anger and betrayal—fueled the outlandish visuals.
  • Comedy & Horror Parallels: Moments of comedic frenzy mirror horror movies: an audience “frenzy where there’s nothing left to do but scream and laugh.”
    • Notable Quote:

      “It was like a horror movie reaction. ... That is what we wanted to achieve, and we did.” —Larry Charles (15:40)

• The limits of audience deference: Charles critiques relying solely on laughs for guidance, observing Sacha Baron Cohen’s approach as “like a human focus group.”

3. The Structure of Building Laughter (18:49–20:48)

• Charles distinguishes between comedies that build “waves of laughter” and those that simply stack jokes.
  • Building the Wave: Sequences like Blazing Saddles’ farting scene or Young Frankenstein’s “Puttin’ on the Ritz” create laughter that escalates and consumes the audience.
    • Notable Quote:

      “Building a sequence where the laughs are constantly building, that is really a challenge ... and almost has to happen accidentally to some degree.” —Larry Charles (19:34)

• It’s difficult to predict audience responses; writing can set intention, but the “X factor” is the live reaction.

4. Character Likability vs. Compelling Characters (20:48–25:36)

• Pesca and Charles delve into the classic TV/film debate: Must characters be likable?
  • Charles’s view: Likability isn’t what makes audiences connect; compelling, ambiguous, or even “dark” traits can make characters irresistible.
    • Examples Discussed: Tony Soprano (The Sopranos), Walter White (Breaking Bad), Larry David (Curb Your Enthusiasm), Shakespeare’s Macbeth.
    • Notable Quote:

      “It’s not about likability, but it’s about being interested in the destiny of that character.” —Larry Charles (22:22)

  • You can’t contrive likability—audience connection is organic and sometimes beyond creative control.
  • Authenticity and charisma (the “charm” factor) matter as much as, if not more than, audience coddling.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On On-Set Danger: “As I’m directing the scene, I’m just thinking to myself, you know, oh my God, if the bear sneezes, he’s going to pull Sasha’s genitalia off, you know, and how will I explain that to the studio?” —Larry Charles (11:39)
• On Comedy’s Emotional Core: “There was kind of an emotional and an honest underpinning to a lot of these things. ... That is what we wanted to achieve, and we did.” —Larry Charles (14:23, 15:40)
• On Building Scenes: “A lot of movies just go for the joke. A lot of TV shows just go for the joke. But building a sequence where the laughs are constantly building ... is very hard to do.” —Larry Charles (19:34)
• On Likability: “You have to kind of let go of caring what the audience thinks and hope that the audience connects. If you’re too worried ... you’re going to wind up pandering, and the audience is going to realize that.” —Larry Charles (24:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• CNN faux-podcast segment (media commentary): 01:07–08:45
• Intro to Larry Charles & Borat bear scene: 09:50–13:23
• Borat’s naked fight and audience reactions: 13:23–18:49
• Structuring waves of laughter in comedy: 18:49–20:48
• Likability vs. Compelling Characters: 20:48–25:36

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Brief: Robert Mueller, Memory & Public Narratives (26:39–32:00)

• Pesca offers a nuanced reflection on Robert Mueller’s passing: analyzing how once-monumental events recede into obscurity.
  • Mueller as a “patriot” who became the object of resistance-era hopes and myth, which over time have faded into skepticism or even mockery.
  • SNL parody, the enduring (misplaced) belief in a “smoking gun” about collusion, and the nature of historic memory.
  • Notable Quote:

    “Robert Mueller was, in fact, a good man. He was also made into something that no man could be, an instrument not just of investigation, but of purifying salvation.” —Mike Pesca (31:50)

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Tone and Style

The episode is sharp, insightful, and playful—characteristic of both Pesca’s wry, analytical style and Larry Charles’s sardonic, philosophical take on creativity and culture. There’s a willingness to puncture industry dogmas and reflect on the oddities of both news and comedy, always with humor and intellectual rigor.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode provides a fascinating window into the process and risks of innovative comedy, the philosophy of character creation, and the real-life tension between artistic intention and unpredictable audience response. Larry Charles’s stories, both riotous and reflective, serve as a master class in the art and accident of making people laugh—and a reminder of how comedy is both dangerous business and deeply emotional craft.
The final segment on Robert Mueller is a thoughtful meditation on the fleeting nature of cultural obsession and the gulf between myth and memory.

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Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

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[Mike Pesca]

It's Monday, March 23, 2026. From Peach Fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. The Gist. A podcast. You might be confused because maybe you were watching CNN and you said to yourself, isn't this a cable news network? In fact, isn't that what the letter CNN stand for? But no, they were trying to be a podcast. They brought out the desk microphones as Anderson Cooper and guests talked into them. They did the entire show from Jake Tapper's office, which is really cool. Office. He has a lot of good political memorabilia on the wall. One note, he has his jackets and pants hanging up pretty prominently. You can move them to the side. Even though it's a podcast, doesn't mean the sets of the podcast have to be exactly what the office is all the time. Status an online newsletter that could be subtitled what did Barry Weiss do today? Looked at the CNN move to fake podcasting or the gesture at podcasting and they shot all over it. A person familiar with CNN's thinking told Status. The podcast format has become a natural environment for Cooper. And with the network and special programing since the Iran war started, there was an opportunity to experiment with different deliveries for news. Was a person familiar with CNN's thinking like someone who watched C who you can't identify who gave that anodyne quote saying well, they did a podcast looking thing because I thought they wanted to do a podcast looking thing. Status Goes on to give anonymity to people behind these other quotes. Quote, I am not convinced that podcast microphones and behind the scenes shots are enough to move the needle. One former television executive told Status. So not even someone currently in television, they worked in television, they got called up by Status. They say something like, yeah, I don't know, if you put a microphone on a desk, it's going to revamp all of CNN's programing and reclaim their glory. But he gets anonymity or she does. Another said, it's a little late to the party, adding that recent experiments gave off a sense of, quote, desperation, good anonymity for that. Anyway, I'm not remaining anonymous. I do have the microphones actually in front of me now with new mic flags that say the gist or when I host how to that say that I will take issue with one of the critiques of CNN that was offered on Status, which is they surveyed, quote, independent YouTuber Keith Edwards ripping CNN, saying it's kind of like rearranging furniture in a burning house. Keith Edwards also saying it shows they fundamentally don't understand why audiences are leaving. Well, first of all, Anderson Cooper's podcast gets a lot higher ratings than yours does Keith Edwards. Second of all, I've watched Keith Edwards podcast. It's not terrible. I kind of don't understand why anyone would seek it out. He's a former Lincoln Project guy who is Trump resistancy and claims that he's a moderate and maybe is. It doesn't matter to me. It's kind of uncompelling content. But the point is that Keith Edwards can show up with an opinion, can tell everyone his opinion, can get an audience based on his opinion. I do a version of that too. I try to go straighter on the news, but CNN can't do that. The reason that a lot of the audience is leaving CNN is that we've shifted away from the desire to have non opinion, straightforward news. That's what CNN does. That's its stock and trade. That costs a lot of money. And that's the thing that's not moving the needle in terms of podcasts. Now you might say, oh, the daily. That's a podcast. That's nonfiction that a lot of people listen to. Yeah, that's true. But it's a unique enterprise and it did get a head start eight or nine years ago and a lot of the other daily news podcasts and it's well done with a staff of. And I would go so far as to say that if CNN wanted to spend a lot of lot of money and a lot of lot of marketing to try to get into the daily one subject podcast game. It could do so, and in doing so, it wouldn't actually be making a sound financial decision. So the life of podcasts is greatly exaggerated as the death of cable news is not on the show today. On this a podcast, we talk about the passing of Robert Mueller. But first, Larry Charles is a comedy giant. He was the director of the Borat movie. He wrote for Seinfeld in its early years, winning an Emmy. He directed a few episodes per year of Curb youb Enthusiasm. And just looking at him, dark glasses, dark beard, used to wear pajamas all the time, you say to yourself, I think this guy might be a genius. I think, I think he might be deranged. And as you'll see from our conversation, the answer is yes. Yes to both. Larry Charles, author of comedy Samurai 40 Years of Blood, Guts and Laughter. Up next. So winter job sites don't mess around. Freezing mornings, wet conditions, wind that cuts through your cheap gear. Yeah, I'm talking about gear you need, workwear that performs when it's brutal. 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This episode is brought to you by Pocket Hose, the world's number one expandable hose. I use pocket hose. It's kind of a miracle. Let me tell you about it. You know, regular hoses, they get kinks, they get creases. But the copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and the freedom to water with ease around your home front yard, backyard. All the places where normal hoses might stop flowing. Pocket hose does not super light ultra durable pocket hose. Copperhead is backed with a 10 year warranty. So like I said, this is a hose. It's also a little bit of amazement because it's so compact and old hoses are really tough to store and don't look good and they sprawl everywhere and this thing is great. I saw the guy from Home Improvement, Richard Karn talking about it and I said intriguing and then they sent me one and I was amazed. For a limited time, my listeners can get a free pocket pivot and their 10 pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size copper head hose. Just text just to 64,000. That's just to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase just to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See Terms for details. The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Larry Charles, who was a longtime writer for Seinfeld and a director of Curb youb Enthusiasm and the director of Borat and so many other fantastic comedies. Only Larry Charles could write a passage like this and, and have it be, I don't know, the 800th, 42nd most interesting thing that happened to him in Dallas. We were going to shoot a scene where Borat would pull up to a park in the ice cream truck and when the kids would come rushing to the window for ice cream, the bear would lunge out and send them all screaming and racing away. Pretty simple. Except death and disfigurement of children looms over the whole scene, which is why I loved it. Like I said, just one random paragraph from comedy samurai. 40 years of blood, guts and laughter. Larry, welcome to the Gist.

[Larry Charles]

Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

[Mike Pesca]

So of all the things in Borat, was the bear the trickiest one or in some ways the most predictable?

[Larry Charles]

Well, the bear was certainly unpredictable, you know, I mean, you know, it started out with two bears. We had two bears and bear trainers and they were very serious when we began. They were like, look, you can't even go near the bears. You have to go to bear camp first. And so they set up a bear camp, like in some abandoned field in Texas. And the idea was you kind of. You spent time with the bears and they got to know your smell and therefore they would not be aggressive with you, hopefully, but very unpredictable animals and anything could have happened. So. So we were really, really serious about our relationship with the bear. But after a while, they started to slack off the trainers, and we'll be over there having a beer, you know, bear beer. You know, it got very confusing and we started traveling. Me and the, the camera guys and the ad. We'd be in the ice cream truck because Sasha was in a van. And we would travel with the bear in the van with us in the ice cream truck. And we would just all be sitting there going, is this going to be cool? You know, I mean, what's going to happen? So, and then we did scenes besides the scene you're talking about, which I'll get into in a second. We did scenes where Sasha sleeps with the bear, like, you know, and the bear turns over and puts his claw on Sasha's groin just because that's the way he was sleeping.

[Mike Pesca]

Let me ask you, as a director, you can't just fake that with an insert, you know, a bear claw and not the pastry.

[Larry Charles]

This was a very low budget movie

[Mike Pesca]

if you're, if you're going to spend an extra 80 bucks.

[Larry Charles]

Larry, there was no bake, there was no bakeries in this part of tech, okay? And. But the bear, you know, like, as, as I'm directing the scene, I'm just thinking to myself, you know, oh, my God, if the bear sneezes, he's going to pull Sasha's genitalia off, you know, and how will I explain that to the studio? You know, so it was kind of like a John Landis Twilight Zone kind of situation where any moment something really horrible could possibly happen. Which brought us to the ice cream truck with the kids. Because the kids were supposed to run up because the ice cream truck pulls up. They run up all excited to get ice cream. And then the bear, on cue, and it got pretty good at this, actually would, like, lunge out of the window at the kids and the kids would go screaming. And 99.9% of the kids reacted very realistically because they were scared and they ran away.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Larry Charles]

But there was one kid who was like, he became like, transfixed the way a mouse does when a snake is about to, like, eat them.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Larry Charles]

Was staring up at the bear as the bear was roaring at him. And I'm going, go, go, run, run. And he wouldn't run. And we tried it twice and finally he just could not run away. For some reason, he was like. He was too transfixed by the bear. And I finally. I had to fire the kid, you know, because. Yeah, so he said, but. And his parents were upset, but by the same token, I probably saved his life.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, so there's that. So another bear in the movie is, as a mod. Who's Ken Davidian, who you tell about. Great story about his audition where you really thought he was some Eastern European guy, but he's not. He's, you know, an actor who was. He was. Lives in Glendale or whatever. And I have to say, I'm sure many people have told you this, but I saw Bora in the theater, and the howls of laughter during the naked fight scene are literally the most I've ever seen or heard an audience lose their shit. It was one of these trends. I've never taken psychedelics or party drugs, but it was that rapturous experience. And the book is great because you really analyze why it happen happened. And it's not just by happenstance. It's because. Well, tell me, what, beyond the craziness of the visuals, but what was informing the audience's reaction and experience that got us to that ecstatic place?

[Larry Charles]

Well, there was so many things going on in that scene, really. I mean, on the surface, of course, you have the two naked men fighting, you know, but actually, I think one of the things that made Borat really work, and I think that lesson gets lost in a lot of comedies, was there was kind of an emotional and an honest underpinning to a lot of these things. Sasha Borat was very upset when he comes out of the bathroom that Azomat is masturbating to a picture of his obsessive love. And so he's angry, and the anger sort of is what drives the fight, you know, and the fight was pretty real. I mean, it was. It was structured to some degree. There was a stunt person there to kind of keep an eye on things. We had a couple of, you know, props around the room. We knew we wanted to go from point A to point B to point C, but there was no way. Like, you're talking about the bear claw. There was no way to fake Azimuth sitting on Sasha's face. So we were, like, sort of violating just as much of the rules as we possibly could. And those taboos, people really do need that in comedy. They need. It's like a horror movie. It's very similar to a horror movie in that you reach a point of frenzy where there's Nothing left to do but scream. Like Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I remember seeing it, and people just screaming and screaming, and I thought, wow, how do you get that audience reaction in a comedy? And this scene allowed us to sort of reach that frenzy point where there was nothing left to do but scream and laugh. People fell on the floor. And, you know, it was. It was like. It was incredible. The first time we showed it to anybody, people, like, were falling on the floor, rolling around. If you looked at the back of their heads, everybody was, like, shaking. Like, it was like a horror movie reaction. And I. And that is what we wanted to achieve, and we did.

[Mike Pesca]

So let me ask you, since in the book you're critical, and I think rightly so, of only. Of only deferring to an audience's reaction. And later on, you criticize Sasha, and you're very honest about where your relationship is with him now and how he brought a different philosophy to the later films that you collaborated with him. But one of the things was he just deferred to essentially whatever, wherever he got laughs with the audience. He was like a human focus group. But at the same time, like, I knew just said that scene, or was gales of laughter like I haven't seen before. Would you say that's the funniest scene you ever directed?

[Larry Charles]

Yes, most likely. I would say so. I think it's one of the funniest scenes in movie history, really. I mean, when I look at the great comedies and I'm a comedy, you know, I would say I'm a fairly a scholar of comedy, if you will. Yeah. And there's lots of great scenes and great comedy movies, and I could cite a lot of them, but I don't recall being in a movie theater or any kind of situation where a scene in a movie got as big a laugh as that. I mean, that unprecedented. Certainly it would compete for the top funniest scene in history.

[Mike Pesca]

Top of my head. Putting on the Ritz from Young Frankenstein up there. And what else is similar about. And you write a lot about the great ending line in Some Like It Hot. Nobody's perfect. That's the greatest button. Right. From a comedy writer's point perspective, I

[Larry Charles]

would say the farting Blazing Saddles. You know, there are. There are examples of great scenes, but this certainly is in that pantheon, you

[Mike Pesca]

know, but the through line is what you just said. There was this emotional connection to the scene. And when I think about Young Frankenstein and how it turned and how Mel Brooks went for a verisimilitude and, you know, shot the Shot the movie on the real sets. And, like, we cared about the creature. Right? And, yeah, that is the through line. You can't just have comedy that's. I mean, you can. You could be funny based on many, many things, but when it's connected to characters and stakes and audience, audience investment, it just gets that much funnier. And that, I think, is what you spent a lot of your career pursuing.

[Larry Charles]

Well, there's another aspect to it also, which I would add, which is that there's a wave. You're trying to create a wave of laughter. A lot of comedies go for a joke, you know, and you get a joke and it's a quip or whatever, and it's funny and there's a laugh and then it's over. And then you have to build up to yet another joke. And you might get a laugh with that, but a scene like the farting scene or putting on the Ritz or the naked fight scene, they build, you know, so that at first you're laughing and then it starts to build on that laugh until there is a wave, until the audience catches that wave, and then the laughter reaches another level, which is very hard to achieve. And it requires much more of a structure to the scene than just going for a joke. A lot of movies just go for the joke. A lot of TV shows just go for the joke. But building a sequence where the laughs are constantly building, that is really a challenge and very hard to do. And almost has to happen accidentally to some degree, too. You have to get lucky.

[Mike Pesca]

Can you achieve that in the writing room?

[Larry Charles]

You can achieve the intention in the writing room, but you don't know how the audience is going to react. I mean, that's the X factor in all of this. The audience was primed in Borat by the opening sequence. I knew we were good when we started, when we started running the movie and the credits came up and people were laughing at the credits, and I thought, okay, they've relaxed, they're into it. They're strapped in, they're ready for the trip, you know, and it set up the whole. Everything else that happened in the movie was set up by those opening credits. And the people just kind of breaking down right at that first moment. And then we could take them on that roller coaster ride and they wanted to go, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So a lot of what you achieved in Borat was because the audience loved Borat to some extent. To a large extent, though, he did terrible things, forgave Borat. And you also talk about how his. His marks the people you interviewed had to start off from a place of at least sympathy for this guy. And there were these techniques. He'd. You, you'd say, I've just joined the set two days ago and this guy is crazy. And then he'll come up and totally in character the whole time. Ye the people of Flag of Kazakhstan so that's very intentional and best laid plans. But this is what I wanted to ask you. You would, you would sometimes are critical of the idea that characters have to be likable. The likability of characters is overemphasized by studios and networks. And yet here, without Borat being likable, the movie wouldn't have worked. So just because I know you philosophize about all the. All these things, square those two observations.

[Larry Charles]

Well, first of all, likability is a very. Is something you cannot contrive. That's the first thing. I mean, if likability really worked in every situation, then every character would be likable and everything, you know, and you wouldn't have anything that was worthwhile. I think that's one. That's one of the first points people try to infuse likability where it isn't organically. It doesn't organically belong. You know, we didn't set out to make Borat likable. There was something of Sasha, Sasha's Persona that came through the Borat character. The innocence of Borat, despite the fact that he's a rapist and an anti Semite. There was something about that combination of things that made him compelling, you know, and more than even likable. And people then got invested in him. Tony Soprano is not a likable character. Walter White is not a likable character. Larry David on Curb youb Enthusiasm is not a particularly likable character, but they are compelling characters that you were interested in. You have Macbeth or Hamlet. You look at those characters, you wouldn't say, oh, Macbeth's a likable guy. You know, it's about some kind of something about them that is compelling, that taps into your dark side, that you feel like a connection to that character. And it's not about likability, but it's about being interested in the. In the destiny of that character.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, and Walter White, Tony Soprano. This is from the great era of Stringer Bell. The anti hero, which is very popular for a while. Is Larry David or the character he played on Curb, which is pretty similar to Larry David. Is he an anti hero? A two part question. Is he likable? I kind of like him. And I wonder if you agree that so many people in the audience were actually on his side with most of these ridiculous stances he took over minor matters of etiquette.

[Larry Charles]

Well, I think in the case of all these characters, including Larry, they. They may have been likable on some level. You did care about them. You didn't want Tony Soprano to get hurt. Even though he was killing people, you wanted him to be okay. You know, And I think with Larry also, I don't think. I think the key was they didn't care. You know, you have to kind of let go of caring what the audience thinks and hope that the audience connects. If you're too worried about the audience reaction and that's driving your creativity, then you're going to wind up pandering, and then the audience is going to realize that and they're going to get turned off. But if you really don't care about that, if you present your. Whatever that project is in with authenticity and honesty, the audience is going to appreciate that, and there's more of a chance of them connecting to it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And they're also all charming and charismatic, and the idea of charisma comes back to literally the idea of charming you or entrancing you with a spell. And so you always kept that in mind when you were either directing Curb or writing for Seinfeld, I assume, which.

[Larry Charles]

Which goes back to Little Caesar. And, you know, those kind of movies, even, you know, they were charming, charismatic characters that you could not turn away from, you know, and even having some ambivalence about them kind of gets you more. It's more of an internal, visceral reaction than just like, oh, wow, that's a likable person, you know, so it's. It's a strength to have that ambiguity in a character. And again, you could only contrive that and intend that so much and then hope the audience completes that transaction with you.

[Mike Pesca]

Don't worry, that's hardly most of Larry Charles's career. We'll be back with part two of this interview tomorrow on the gist. The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations,

[Podcast Advertiser]

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[Mike Pesca]

And now the spiel News of Robert Mueller's passing broke over the weekend. Robert Mueller was a patriot, an exemplary public servant, a veteran, and the subject of President Trump's demeaning insults on social media until the very end. As Mueller fades from our mortal coil and also our consciousness, so too will the memory of the Mueller investigation. I suspect that for future generations, mentions of the Mueller investigation will land. Not like the Army McCarthy hearings or Watergate as was presumed during the investigation, but more like talk of AB scam or reference to an age old event like Hands Across America on the West Coast.

[Podcast Advertiser]

In West Hollywood, Olivia Newton John joined the line, as did Catherine Bach, Sarah

[Larry Charles]

Purcell, and number five, the robot from the movie Short Circuit.

[Mike Pesca]

These events once seemed central, even all consuming, but now they prompt a different reaction when referenced in fiction films 40 years later. Wait, did that really happen? Abscam really happened? Of course, it was referenced in American Hustle and in Jordan Peele's film US Hands Across America showed up, prompting a lot of people to ask, is that an invention of the film? It was not. It was real. And let me tell you, it was unbelievably important. Seeming at the time what the Mueller investigation seemed to mean will be hard to convey to my children and almost impossible to convey to their children to conjure how enthralled a certain segment of society was with the work of Robert Mueller. The votive candles, the headlines, the steady stream of stories aimed at calming the frazzled nerves of those who could not believe that Donald Trump had been elected and were waiting for deliverance from that truth, casting Robert Mueller as the savior. The Saturday Night Live sketches in which was played by Robert De Niro as the most no nonsense, straight talking lawman since Joe Friday. They even sang songs about him on snl.

[Larry Charles]

I want for Christmas is you, You baby. Oh this needs to be done by Christmas. I need a freaking ounce of tears. I just really want my life back. Oh my God.

[Mike Pesca]

You could date the era of that sketch by the reaction I found on Twitter. Cringe worthy. Someone wrote the worthy that's now extraneous tacked on to an otherwise sufficient critique. To this day, when I say the Mueller investigation found no evidence of collusion between Russia and Donald Trump or his associates, I get angry emails correcting me. No, they say Mueller didn't find no evidence of collusion. He simply found insufficient evidence to charge a crime. So there are a couple of responses to that. One is that this is the standard by which we judge investigations in America. If insufficient evidence is found, we say there was no charging of the crime. They didn't find the evidence. We don't continue to say, oh, but they might be guilty. Unless there is evidence above and beyond what the investigators were asked to find that shows the party was guilty. No one has ever found that because there was insufficient evidence that there was a collusion or a conspiracy between Donald Trump and Russia. Russia was trying to affect the election. Donald Trump was benefiting and glad to benefit from that. That is different from a conspiracy. Here is Mueller himself. And notice, as I did at the time, the step down between the image and the person we saw, who was halting, who strained to hear, who spoke unsteadily at times. Here was Mueller in his own words, in his opening statement to Congress.

[Larry Charles]

Second, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired with the Russian government in its election interference activities. We did not address collusion, which is not a legal term. Rather, we focused on whether the evidence was sufficient to charge any member of the campaign with taking part in a criminal conspiracy. And it was not.

[Mike Pesca]

Upon Mueller's passing, I read an obituary of sorts by Garrett Graff, whose reporting did as much as anyone to solidify Mueller's reputation as indefatigable and stalwart. The obituary properly cataloged Mueller's personal virtues, but to graph to this day, he still suggests that Trump has something to answer for in terms of colluding or conspiring with the Russians, perhaps even that he acted as a Russian asset. Graf won't quite say it, but he won't quite say that this isn't true. I do admire Garrett Graff. He earned his Pulitzer. But just months ago, he also trafficked in rumors that Trump was on his deathbed, essentially during a weekend when he was out of public view. He did so in the careful style of a real journalist, a resistance era journalist. While there is no proof he allowed, there is enough smoke to further investigate. This was the prevailing posture during the Mueller years. Even those who didn't light the vote of candles or subscribe to the Mueller She Wrote podcast tended to believe there's so much there and so much at stake and Mueller is so capable and upright that when the report arrives, it will mark Trump's most nightmarish day in office. In fact, it'll be the beginning of the end. It was not. Another remembrance came from Jeet here of the New Republic, who argued that the very fixation on Mueller was a mistake, that it distracted from what actually needed to be done, which was an organized political opposition to Trump. I say yes, the opposition to Trump was necessary. And it happened. It happened. Even though we were positively obsessed with Robert Mueller. Attention is not finite. The Trump resistant parts of America wound up, in practical terms, not choosing between excessive investment in the Mueller investigation and trying to defeat Donald Trump electorally. In fact, you can make the case that even if Donald Trump didn't conspire with the Russians, there was plenty of reason why he shouldn't be elected again. You know how I know you could make the case? I made the case many times. There remain those who believe Mueller failed to uncover a deeper, sinister cabal, that Trump was in fact a foreign asset. Set against that is a less baroque, more well supported view. Opportunistic, amoral. Okay, Immoral. Willing to accept help from wherever it came. And then there's another, much more disturbing and disgusting reaction to the Mueller investigation and Mueller's passing, which is marked by Donald Trump's curt statement of good when commenting upon Mueller's death. Robert Mueller was, in fact, a good man. He was also made into something that no man could be, an instrument not just of investigation, but of purifying salvation. And that's it for today's show. Cory Warra produces the Gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. Jeff Craig is a producer of How To. He also does all our video content. And Ben Astaire is our booking producer. Michelle Pesca is the COO of Peach Fish Productions. Improve and thanks for listening.