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- [00:00]
Mike Pesca
Right now the Home Depot has spring deals under $20. So no matter what you're working on, the deals are blooming at the Home Depot with savings on plants, flowers, soil and more. Then light up your outdoor space with Hampton Bay string lights was $34.97, now only $19.99.
- [00:17]
Max Kerman
And get the grill going with two.
- [00:19]
Mike Pesca
16 pound bags of Kingsford charcoal was $19.98, now only $17.88.
- [00:24]
Max Kerman
Don't miss spring deals under $20 now.
- [00:26]
Mike Pesca
Through May 7 at the home Depot, subject to availability, valid on select items only. Hello listeners, both Pesca plus and everyone else. Every month we do what amounts to a book club and this month is no exception, although you might think of it as an exception since it's going to be exceptionally good. As John McWh is my guest. He was on the show, but only I got to talk to him. He was on the Colbert Show. You can't ask questions to the television set. I mean, you can. You're not going to get answers. But at a Pesca plus book club, we have on the authors and we have on all the members of Pesca plus who care to join to ask someone like, or in this case specifically, John McWhorter questions. His new book is called Pronoun Trouble, the Story of Us in Seven Little Words. How do you support the gist and get in on exciting monthly book clubs like this and so many other offerings? You go to mike pesca.com it's all there, all the information. Get the show without ads. Get the show with John McWhorter right there. May 15th. Right there on your Zoom network. Mike pesca.com May 15th John McWhorter, pronoun trouble the story of us in Seven Little Words. It's Wednesday, May 7th, 2025. From Peach Fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. The results of the German election are in and the winner is. Friedrich Mertz has become Germany's new chancellor.
- [01:50]
Max Kerman
After winning his second vote in the country's parliament.
- [01:52]
Mike Pesca
Well, that's how an englishman on Channel 4 might say it. A German hits closer to Frederic Ma. But all I can hear is Fred Mertz, legendary I Love Lucy, neighbor, husband of Ethel, played by Bill Frawley, who, as we get into a little in today's just newsletter, mike pasco.substack.com Bill Frawley was a legendary drunken curmudgeon. I don't know, I may be downplaying his credits. He was a legendary vaudevillian, alcoholic and misanthrope how does not one hear Fred Mertz when they hear Frederick Matz or Frederick Mers, the ruler of Germany? I think this means that most people weren't born in 1939, and neither was I. But somehow I know of Fred Mertz. I did get to know him even better by checking out this BBC profile piece. That's the name of the show. I came across this reportage about Mers being a teenaged father.
- [02:51]
Max Kerman
It was the. The vitality of Friedrich Maths. You have always students that are very.
- [02:59]
Mike Pesca
Quiet, not with a lot of contact.
- [03:02]
Max Kerman
And when you hear suddenly that he has a child, it's surprising. But with Frilly, it was not so surprising. He says himself that he changed by becoming Faber.
- [03:17]
Mike Pesca
Now the high school dropout had to get his schnitzel together. You can't say that. Can you say that? Yes, I get it. Schnitz. It's a German food. But the BBC can't just pound it into a pun. What's the limiting principle? Certainly not good taste. Berlusconi found out that he didn't know his ass from his elbow macaroni. Or if you want to get a little more authentic in the Italian dish category. But the Bunga Bunga affair showed that the swift riser was followed by the far fall. You are playing a dangerous game. BBC. Wait until they turn it back on you. The accusers identified one of the men as Prince Andrew. A case of spotted dick. You can't do that. Frederick Merz is the 10th Chancellor of Germany since the war ended. And given the presence of Gerhard Schroeder still out there, he probably won't be the worst because of sausage. You know, thinking about leaders of Germany, you had Helmut Schmidt and Helmut Cole. Meaning that from 1974-98, Germans didn't just vote on a government they strongly considered the right man helmet. Okay, I'll admit. No one wants puns about prominent Germans. Someone once advised me that, brother, it gets grim if you go there and you say something you can't take back. I guess that's the best we're gonna do. I'm not proud. On the show, Max Kerman of Arkel's great band, talking about more than his band. More than rock music, more than music. He has a new book out called Try Hard Creative work in progress. And we talk about just that. Max Kerman. Up next, the bicycle. Let's have a cigarette. Hey, can we talk about True Work? I'm wearing True Work right now. I guess you can't see me, but if you could, you would See this pullover hoodie? It's good for the sun, but you but it's just good to wear. And these work pants, which are in I don't know if it's mustard, it's yellow, it says cool, but it says also it's going to wick away moisture. I feel like I'm fooling someone or getting away with someone when I wear True Work. It's engineered for maximum comfort. Check, check check. Minimum bulk. You know, denim and cotton hasn't changed over 200 years, but true Work has elasticity, sweat, wicking, soft shell technology. You don't feel like you're wearing technology, but you're inside technology. With these pants, with this shirt, upgrade to True Work for a major change in the way you work. True Work helps you be your best when your best matters most. Check out the full lineup to get 15% off your first order@True Work.com the gist is one of those where the spelling will matter, so pay attention. 15% off at t r u e W-E-R-K.com the gist if ED it's erectile dysfunction is keeping you down, HIMS is there to get you your confidence, everything about you, your essence to get it up. Feeling a little stalled in the bedroom? You could get some gas in the tank, you know, be you diesel or unleaded. I'm not here to judge. 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Prices vary based on product and subscription plan. Max Kerman, lead singer of Our Cows, has been on the Gist many times. Every time you hear Not Even Mad, that's his theme music that he wrote for us. But let us face facts. Max is a rock star in Canada. He is very, very big. How big? Well, in Hamilton, Ontario, by a popular vote, they named a snowplow after him. The Max Terminator. Now you have to understand, in Canada having a snowplow named after you, it's like in the US having a stamp named after you. You're a picture on a stamp. And of course, in Canada, there's only one person whose picture is allowed on the stamp. And in America, you have to be dead. So the snowplow thing, pretty much the world's highest honor in Canada. I do have to say, when I talk to Max on the show, I get very excited. Sometimes when I go see one of his shows, I get very excited, but a little uneasy because all I want to do is plow ahead and pepper him with questions. But now I don't feel bad because I read his new book, Try Hard Creative Work in Progress, and he reveals he does the same thing. He meets Shania Twain after a show and he just plows ahead with questions. Or at Coachella, he meets fellow songwriter and fellow Max, but non fellow snowplow eponym, Max Martin just plows ahead. So let's do it. Let's do it again, Max. Let's plow ahead.
- [09:22]
Max Kerman
Let's plow ahead. I will say, you know the assignment you gave me to write a theme song for Not Even Mad. That was such a great creative exercise for me and it really got my blood flowing because, you know, I'm used to writing, you know, three and a half minute rock and roll pop songs. But you, but the instructions you gave me, like you wanted it to feel sort of like dramatic, like some kind of like high brow news ca. Yeah. And, and, and I remember thinking like, okay, this is great. And I sat down at the piano and I. With my left hand, I had like the bass part in mind. And then I was singing the melody and then I kind of got it together and I went over to my friend Derek's place and we recorded it. But it was fun because it was a different kind of musical assignment.
- [10:14]
Mike Pesca
So that's how you write. You write on piano. The left hand's the bass part, the right hand's. Oh. You sing the melody, the right hand's the rhythm. And on that same piano that you record most of your songs, the Broken Ragtime piano.
- [10:26]
Max Kerman
Yeah, there's. Yeah, sometimes I use a guitar, but piano I just seem to like. It brightens me up a bit. So I like, I like the piano.
- [10:33]
Mike Pesca
Would you Say your guitar playing is better than your piano playing.
- [10:36]
Max Kerman
Not just both, pretty average. You know, there's a part in the book where I used to agonize over equipment. Like musical equipment.
- [10:43]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [10:43]
Max Kerman
And I was like, oh, if I just got that great Fender Stratocaster or that Gibson J45, I'd really start to practice. But, but that is, that is not the way it works. It's like you either have the desire to practice scales or you don't. And when I did finally get that nice guitar, my guitar proving playing did not improve at all.
- [10:59]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [11:00]
Max Kerman
So I was like, you know, I'm fine with whatever old junk instruments around I can make do.
- [11:04]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. Every snotty 12 year old's like, I need that good guitar. And then the parents justify it. Maybe he'll practice more. And it never works like that.
- [11:11]
Max Kerman
Nope.
- [11:12]
Mike Pesca
It's also interesting that you said you appreciated or got something out of the assignment. I mean, that is how creativity works best, right? It's freedom within constraint. It's some parameters and then within those parameters, finding how much space that you have within them. And so the question is, and you get into this is do you impose, what do you do to impose the parameters on yourself? How do you, how do you as a creative know how much imposition that you want to have for allowing a creative process to flourish?
- [11:48]
Max Kerman
You know, I've been very lucky that there's been a structure in my working life from a very early age. You know, so the band met in university and we very quickly, you know, started gigging and practicing and at the end of our fourth year of university, we got signed to a label. So we had a due date immediately, you know, so. Because I think a lot of artists who aren't as lucky and I do think it's a lot of luck, you know, have to sort of wander around imagining it's like, when will this thing come out?
- [12:19]
Mike Pesca
Right?
- [12:19]
Max Kerman
But for us it's like, you know, we finished in April and our debut record came out in October. And so we had a timeline to adhere to which really focused us. And even with writing the book, like it's such a privilege to be able to like, you know, work with a publisher. And they go, okay, we have this date in mind circled and you know, we have to have the book end in like nine months to a year before. So I don't know, the deadlines have been very helpful and help create more work because once you check one thing off your list, then you can get to the next.
- [12:48]
Mike Pesca
What about non time deadlines? Like ways. So you recently began. Relatively. Recently began working with co songwriters, which at one point you thought was anathema to what you do, but they have a different process and the process might have some restrictions, but that works for you or can work.
- [13:06]
Max Kerman
Yeah. So for the first three records, the band just wrote as a unit and I'd usually bring in some acoustic versions and then we jam it up together. And that's the way I thought bands were supposed to work, but then some. I forget who, but somebody convinced me, oh, you should go to la. There's so many great songwriters out there, you might learn a thing or two. And on the first session, I wrote a song with this guy, John Fields. The beginnings of a song. I want to make it clear that the band always has their fingerprints on it, but the beginnings of a song called My Hurt, so is Yours, which has since gone on to be one of our biggest songs. It's like been played at first dances, at weddings, and we play it every night on tour. And it's this great moment during the show, but I haven't seen John Fields since that day. But I was like, oh, isn't that interesting that I can have a creative spark with a person that I met literally for five hours. And I learned so much from him. So John Fields, who's written songs with the Jonas Brothers and Jimmy World, and he's has a long, prolific career, we started on the verse in the chorus, which I had, and then for the chorus, he said, try to hit this high note. And I was like, I never would have thought to hit that high F. But I. But I did. He coached me through it. And then when it came time to sing, I was gonna go into the vocal booth in his little studio and he said, no, you can sing it right out here. I'd been trained for 10 years. No, if you're gonna do vocals, you have to. You are resigned to the vocal booth. It always felt like a prison to me too. I never liked spending time in the vocal booth.
- [14:22]
Mike Pesca
It always felt, you don't like recording studios.
- [14:24]
Max Kerman
I don't like recording studios. It's such an unnatural, strange place. But I get it. Because you wanna like, you know, conserve the quality of the vocal take. But he said no. Do you know that Bono sings his vocal through a really ordinary microphone in the control room with other guys hanging out? And he's not. Doesn't even have headphones on. The speaker is playing back the instrumental and he's casually singing the song. And even though it's not the perfect vocal quality, because there's other interference in there. The performance is good. And so I go, oh, I didn't know that. And so from there I go, there's actually so much to learn when you are doing continuing education. And I, you know, it's funny, I talk about my dad in a chapter in the book where he's a social worker, but he puts on these continuing education conferences. So this idea of continuing education has been in my. In my bones from a very young age, which I think is important.
- [15:12]
Mike Pesca
Do you hit that high effing concert?
- [15:14]
Max Kerman
It took a while. It really took a while to get there. The first, like six months of singing that song, it was unnatural. But then your body readjusts itself and now I can hit it just fine.
- [15:22]
Mike Pesca
There's a lot of parts in the book, although you don't stop and have a distinct chapter on this, where what the creative breakthrough is is getting you outside your comfort zone. You just talked about one like, I wouldn't. I wouldn't think to write with someone else. And then I did, and it sparked something. And another one was early on you had done two albums and they were straight ahead rock and roll. But also, I think lyrically you had some sort of commitment to, I'm not going to say hardcore, but you were reluctant to give in to romanticism. And then at one point you start working with another producer and he says, let me read the part of the book. We use drum machines for the first time. The songs were more heartfelt and romantic. There was no way a song with the sentimental lyric of 1111 or dirty blonde would have been able to exist on the first two albums. And that blew my mind, because I'm not going to say you're known for the sentimental lyric, but when I first started listening to you, High Noon and Forward, this is. This was absolutely part of the DNA of our Kells that you would do a sweet song that captured a moment pro from when you were younger. And I never even thought that at some point you were reluctant to do it. But now, yeah, well, you know, we.
- [16:43]
Max Kerman
Came from a scene, right? So the music that we listen to that shaped a lot of our first couple records is like this great era of Canadian indie rock. And so it's this generation just a little bit older than us. So I'm talking about Broken Social Scene, the Weaker Thans, the Constantines, you know, that whole lineage of bands that. That existed during that time. And those bands were like, particularly like arty. You know, it's like the lyrics weren't necessarily right up in Front of your face. You know, it's like they weren't particularly sentimental, those bands. The Constantine.
- [17:16]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [17:17]
Max Kerman
And bands we love. But I've always loved that kind of music too. It's like, because I'm such a fan of just pop music, you know, from the 50s onward and.
- [17:26]
Mike Pesca
But like your favorite band or one of the only bands you listen to for years was the Beatles.
- [17:30]
Max Kerman
The Beatles.
- [17:31]
Mike Pesca
You know, you would. Not. Someone who is a huge fan of the band who wrote I want to hold your hand was against treacly poppy music.
- [17:38]
Max Kerman
Right. But. But I think it goes to show that when you are immersed in a particular scene, you get tunnel vision, for better and for worse, you know, it's like your influence. And I think the influence of those bands really helped in the early days. But then after the first couple records, it took working with an outside producer, Tony Hoffer in la, who said, no, it's okay to sing about love. It's okay. It's okay to sing about that. That moment when you're just like in bed with your girlfriend and you feeling so much love in your heart. That's okay. And that wouldn't have passed the sniff test in the early days. So again, it was just like I needed to be exposed to things beyond our little world.
- [18:14]
Mike Pesca
Do you think you were being true or your. If you really examined it, you would probably have said, what? What am I doing? But subconsciously, were your. Were you holding fealty to your bandmates, your fans? The image of yourself, the other bands in the scene, who did you think you were betraying or going against by preventing yourself from writing a song like 11:11.
- [18:40]
Max Kerman
You know what it is? I'll tell you exactly what it is. Okay, so there. And I mentioned this in the book. There is this message board. This is like pre Twitter, pre Facebook, pre everything called still post S T I L L E post. And it was a discussion board for Canadian indie rock, like Ontario indie rock. Southern Ontario indie rock is quite specific. But they listed all the upcoming shows.
- [18:58]
Mike Pesca
At the club 18th and Main Street, Hamilton. Indie rock.
- [19:02]
Max Kerman
Yes. And I was fascinated by the board. I didn't really participate. Everyone was a little older and a little cooler. But I. And the conversations in the punditry, all of it was very juicy and fun and people were talking about what bands were better than others, what bands were shit, what bands, you know, had potential. And those. Those avatars, those usernames really played a big part in my thinking because anytime I wrote a song, I'd go, are the people on stillpost gonna Think this is cool or lame? You know, are the people on Stillpost gonna think that my shirt is cool or lame? And I let that invade my thinking. And to this day, I still have a version of that. And I wanna make it very clear when I'm working on anything, I become paralyzed. When I think of a really smart, clever, but slightly cynical freelance journalist who spends a lot of time on Twitter and what they might think about my next idea, I become paralyzed. I go, oh, it is lame. No, it's lame.
- [19:58]
Mike Pesca
That's why they call it Pitchfork.
- [19:59]
Max Kerman
You Right, exactly. It's that tone. And by the way, and the ironic part about that is that I like Pitchfork. I think a lot of their commentary of journalists is, like, right up my alley. We probably vote the same way. We probably have many things in common. Like, we probably. But anytime I wanted to do something that was a little more vulnerable, a little more hard on my sleeve, a little more smiley even, I always go, they're gonna think it's lame. So as soon as I got over that, I think the music became a lot more free. And that sort of kind of probably started on the third record.
- [20:36]
Mike Pesca
So how do you know what to stick to? So, so far, we've talked about freeing up a conception that you were sticking to about how to write a song. You changed that, and it helped. Then at another point, we talked about the kind of songs you could write. We just talked about why you thought that that was the right kind of song. You changed. You showed some flexibility, and it was good. Yet there still can't be that easy. It can't be that every principle you have must be abandoned. So that's the question. How do you know the things that you're sticking to, that you're going to stick to forever, that absolutely work for you?
- [21:10]
Max Kerman
I think it comes down to, like, the first paragraph of the book is, am I entertained or not? It's that simple. You know, it's like if. If. If we were still putting on the same shows we did when we started, which is black, skinny jeans, plaid shirt, five of us on stage, thrashed around playing indie rock songs, I wouldn't be entertained. I'd be so bored. I'd be so bored of that. So then the question goes, okay, how do you entertain yourself? Well, wouldn't be interesting if. If we had horns on some. Okay, maybe. Maybe we're bringing some horns in the mix. Maybe we're touring with horns if we can afford it. What if it's not always my voice? What if we bring in some features Hangers. Oh, that's kind of interesting. What if I demand everybody learns choreography for certain moments of the show? What if I want the show to be really directed? What if I want the show, especially when we're playing, like, big shows up in Canada, that it's more of a theater production than it is just indie rock guys coming on stage? And when I say theater production, I don't necessarily mean like a musical, though I do love musicals. I'm thinking Bruce Springsteen. Springsteen show is so choreographed. There's. It's a perfect mix of the spontaneous moments where he's looking on the crowd, he sees a sign, he brings the sign on stage, he shows the sign, the band to the band, they launch into that song, which is also an act of preparation, might I add. Like, being able to pull off that magic trick means that the band has to know all 300 of Springsteen songs. I went out for dinner with Jake Clemens after Springsteen played in Toronto recently. Jake is the.
- [22:33]
Mike Pesca
This is the saxophone.
- [22:34]
Max Kerman
The saxophone player at Clarence's nephew. And they played some deep cut the night before. And I said, did you guys run that in soundcheck? He said, nope, we just had to be ready. So, like, this idea of preparation is.
- [22:43]
Mike Pesca
And this isn't a guy who was in the E Street Band from the days they were on E Street. This is. Sure, his uncle was Clarence, but he's joined within the last, I don't know, 10 years. Oh, he.
- [22:51]
Max Kerman
No, he's had to learn all the material. So to me, that is how I'm keeping myself entertained is not by doing the same thing. So I think it's like as soon as something becomes a little sleepy or a little dusty, that's when I go, okay, it's time to think about something else. Something new.
- [23:07]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. And of the Springsteen show. And we've talked about our mutual love of Springsteen, which is, by the way, not just apparent in much of Max's music lyrics, but the videos. You know, there'll be a Springsteen reference on the wall a third of the time.
- [23:23]
Max Kerman
It's true.
- [23:24]
Mike Pesca
So we. We talked about this. And after I saw you at the show, this is when I was peppering you with questions. And what do you do to get the crowd going? And how. How much the do different things that you were doing that show, you were doing a request thing with laundry, and how much does that work? And I was fascinated. I'm fascinated by the showmanship and how much a lead singer of a rock rock band really puts into what's supposed to seem spontaneous and organized and One thing that you and I both agree with, and I was thinking more of comedy, but you write in the book, you know how Springsteen comes on stage and the beginning songs that aren't even Bruce songs, just like the Non Arkale songs that play beforehand, are clearly curated. Comes on stage, Max plays the drums, boom. They're right into it. Really important. And in your book, you're right about. It's a small detail, but a welcome change from the indie rock scene, where bands often clumsily tune their guitars for the first 45 seconds of the show, completely killing any buzz generated by their arrival on stage. And for me, it's like you go see a comedy show, and it's not one of these shows where the agreement is you're watching people work out stuff. You see a comedy show, and the comic says, so what else, what else? I hate that you're a professional comedian, have this stuff memorized. Don't tell me what else, what else? And so I wonder, do you think there is definitely a vibe to indie rock? And I guess the audiences. Do you think they like it or just expect it or. Another way to ask the question is, so many successful acts seem not to get this. Do you think they thrive in spite of that? Or maybe for some acts that sort of, let's show the seams of how we're doing it is actually a successful strategy.
- [25:07]
Max Kerman
I say I disagree a little bit because I think most successful acts don't do it. I think that's. I think that's one of the things that separates a successful act and a not successful act, how you prepare to walk on the stage. And I think that little moment is indicative. Now, don't get me wrong, there are. You could go to a show at Madison Square Garden, and the end in the beginning is clumsy and not great. But I do think most bands have enough reps that they go, okay, how do we want to make the intro look in the feel? So I think a lot of. I'll use Arcade Fire as an example. It's like they really separated themselves from their peers because in those early shows, they came out swinging. The entrance they'd make to the stage would be, you know, all 12 of them or however many they were touring with would be walking through the crowd, banging a drum. You know, it's like, okay, that. That is a thoughtful entrance. And. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why they've had the success that they had, because it's. It's just like their determination to make each. Each moment.
- [26:32]
Mike Pesca
And we'll be back with more of Max Kerman after the break. You know what I say about a shirt that I just love? I say I could live in it. And that's what I've been doing with Quince. I've got a few pieces from Quince. They're in my closet, but also on my torso. Quince is all the things you actually want to wear. They have organic cotton silk polos. They have European linen beach shorts. And I am here to tell you, also applicable in North America, everything with quince is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find with similar brands. Because I'm talking to you. And as cliche as it sounds, by cutting out said middleman, who's maybe not even wearing pants as comfortable as quints pants, we're saving you money and giving you luxury pieces without crazy markups. I have gotten two Quint sweaters that are comfortable, fashionable and make me look good. Really? That's what it's all about. One's heather green and the other is a is a basic black. But there's nothing basic about how it feels and how it looks. Elevate your closet with quince. Go to quince.com/the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com/the gist to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/the gist we're back with Max Kerman. The man fronts the not the. He doesn't like to say the fronts R. Kells, though. I once caught him saying the Arkels in concert. I called him on and he said I did. Sometimes I do. It's very creative. He's very loose. I also like the parts of your book where you talk about stage banter. And an early episode of the Gist was I had a listener. I forgot even how it came up. But one of my listeners, Dylan is a great guitar player, plays in Broadway shows. But when he does live, when he did live shows, he wasn't great at banter. So we brought in a singer, very successful singer, and she was a Sharon Van Etten. You know her? Yeah, she was. She talked, she talked him through the banter. And I really loved the fact that what is supposed to be or maybe when we go to see a show and the person on stage engages in banter, we know they didn't just think of it from the top of their head, but it's a little different from when you go to see a play or when you go to see anything else where someone is talking, there's the idea that maybe this is somewhat from the top of their head or it is riffing. But I love the fact that you get into how you craft your banter, how you talk to others about your banter. The time that other big musicians have laid down a riff on you before a show, you go to see the show and there's the riff on stage. I love that.
- [29:27]
Max Kerman
Yeah.
- [29:27]
Mike Pesca
Were you reticent to share that?
- [29:28]
Max Kerman
No, that's my favorite part. Because. Because the book is about process, and the book's about pulling back the curtain on how you do things. And in my case, I have lots of ideas, but I somehow. I don't know what the shape of the story ought to be, you know, when it comes to my banter. And also, I'm really bad with buttons. I'm very good at knowing what I'm not good at. So what I do is Mike Biermann, who I host the best hanging podcast with, who's such a brilliant writer and knows my brain really, really well. When I'm on tour, I just give him a ring and I go, hey, Mike, I'm in Halifax right now. Okay. I want to work out what I want to say at the top of the show. After the second song, I want to mention that, okay, we've played at all these other venues, but this is going to be the biggest time we've ever played in Halifax. And I want to be able to, like, end my big sermon on a bang. Like, how do I do that? And Mike, because he understands the math of storytelling in a much more focused way than I understand, he walks me through it and he punches parts up, and then he's like, this is what you'd say at the end of your story. And I go, perfect. Great. And that's why the collaboration is so much fun. And also, it just beats whatever else I'd be doing that day in Halifax. When I wait that nine hours from when I wake up to go on stage, it's like, what am I doing?
- [30:40]
Mike Pesca
Well, that's Halifax specific.
- [30:42]
Max Kerman
You know what I mean? What am I doing?
- [30:43]
Mike Pesca
No, it's not.
- [30:44]
Max Kerman
No, but it's most places, if you're.
- [30:45]
Mike Pesca
In Red Deer, Halifax is great. You can't say the same.
- [30:49]
Max Kerman
Yeah.
- [30:49]
Mike Pesca
Have you ever done that, by the way? Confused Moncton for Prince Edward island while on stage.
- [30:55]
Max Kerman
I've done it twice, and they've both been egregious. Do you want to hear?
- [30:58]
Mike Pesca
Tell me, tell me.
- [30:59]
Max Kerman
One time, we were playing in Glasgow And I said, it's great to be back in England.
- [31:03]
Mike Pesca
That's. Oh my God. That's the number one thing Scottish people have.
- [31:08]
Max Kerman
I know.
- [31:09]
Mike Pesca
That's the worst.
- [31:10]
Max Kerman
It is the worst.
- [31:11]
Mike Pesca
You have never. And by the way, ever say English to any Scots without them saying, actually, no.
- [31:17]
Max Kerman
And by the way, the second ice, it left my mouth. I go, oh my God. Oh my God. Like I knew immediately. And then the other time we were. I think we were in Calgary and I said, edmonton, how's it going? And Edmonton and Calgary are fierce provincial rivals. You know, they really hate each other. So that was.
- [31:35]
Mike Pesca
Did you cover it up? Is what I said when I was at Northlands arena, but here at the Saddle Dome. Oh yeah, I know my. I don't know all the CFL stadia, but I know, I know which one has the space between Red Rider and which one doesn't. Rough Rider. Rough Rider. Earlier we talked about how you thought if you got maybe the great new guitar, you'd play more. And you're actually inspired by picking up weird instruments and instruments that don't work. And basically, I'll quote the book, I make every effort to avoid all superstitious instincts. For musicians, it's easy to approach your instrument and wonder if the universe is on your side and if the time is right. Superstitions can come in the form of many excuses that don't help much. But you're a big sports guy. That was your first love. Many of the. Many of your commissions have been to either do things at sports stadia or for sports team or a sports team takes one of your bands. So this is big sports and music. Interview mingling with Arkels why do you think? I have some theories, but sports people are really superstitious and it helps them. And for you as a musician but a creative person, quite the opposite. So I have some theories about this, but why do you think there's that difference?
- [32:56]
Max Kerman
Are they. That's. I mean, I guess there's a lot of superstition in sports, like a pitcher's.
- [33:01]
Mike Pesca
Preparation, they'll never deviate. Or Wade Boggs always eating fried chicken before a meal or talk to Nick Nurse or many of these other coaches, they have to touch the same thing every day. I mean, you have rituals, but they're really superstitious quite often.
- [33:18]
Max Kerman
I. I guess so. But I'd also add that they. The amount of time they just put in just working on their craft, you know, as an athlete is. Is probably 99% of their day. And the 1% is the ritual part so, so I. So I'd say it's like if that makes them feel better, great. But it's. But it's like if they didn't train and they just stuck to their, like fried chicken or, you know, how they.
- [33:44]
Mike Pesca
Oh, yeah.
- [33:45]
Max Kerman
Before they walk.
- [33:45]
Mike Pesca
I don't even know if this, you.
- [33:46]
Max Kerman
Know, I mean, like, it wouldn't mean anything. It wouldn't. It wouldn't mean anything. So I'm happy they have that. But I don't think, I don't think it contributes at all to their success.
- [33:53]
Mike Pesca
No, but if psychologically there's. There's the placebo effect, and if they think it does got out of the comfort zone, I mean, watch a guy in a free throw line, they'll have to do certain things and the routine moors them. I think it's about what is the value of routine in professional sports. And it's really valuable, right? It's. Once you in sports demonstrate a skill, you have that skill, and what you want to do is replicate that skill. So routine is a virtue in the highest echelon of professional sports. Even something that looks creative, like, you know, figure skating, they can't deviate from that. So they must love the routine. Whereas with creative people, routine isn't exactly the enemy. And this is where it gets interesting and ambiguous. There's some amount of routine that you need, but you also have to do the things to break away 5, 10, 30 degrees from the routine. So that's where I think maybe superstition for a musician like you would not help or does not help.
- [34:50]
Max Kerman
Also, I think there's, I think difference between a creative and an athlete is there's already too much time to contemplate things as a creative, you know, like an athlete doesn't have that much time. Like a creative person's job is literally to sit in a chair or sit in front of a piano and to think. Yeah, And I think that that's too much time. I think with an athlete, it grounds them while they're in the midst of sprinting their heart out or, you know, going into battle in some way. You know what I mean? So I think the reason why I'm a little dubious about superstition, superstitions when it comes to creative people. It's like you already have too much. You're already in your head already. So, like, you know, if you can get out of your head and into your fingers and just get into a flow state, that's actually just a better way to be. Like too much contemplation. I don't think is.
- [35:35]
Mike Pesca
There's another area where the book got me thinking about routine. And it's that in songwriting there saw the reason that songs appeal to us is that they follow patterns and, you know, certain chord progressions are very pleasing to us. But then what makes a good song to a great song, or at least us, a predictable song to an interesting song, are the deviations from that. And you talk about a couple times when. Well, with some of the songs, like with the tempo of Knocking on the Door, it increases. And the way you write about it is something like the song demanded that. What do you mean?
- [36:15]
Max Kerman
I'm knocking at the door I'm thirsty for more, for more, for more but that's me.
- [36:27]
Mike Pesca
I'm knocking at the door.
- [36:49]
Max Kerman
You know, there's. There are rules when it comes to songwriting math, which is, you know, the verse should take so long and, you know, if you're trying to write a great pop song, you know, you don't want to wait till a minute and 45 seconds to get to the chorus. You know, there are certain rules and. And there's also certain rules when it comes to, like, how repetitive things should be and how repetitive things shouldn't be. So it's like you want to have just enough repetition so something is familiar, but you don't want to be too repetition repetitive that people get annoyed by it. That said, within that framework, there's lots of mysterious and interesting directions you can go. Now I'm thinking about, like, this, the Dixie Chick song. I'm not ready to make nice. Do you remember that song?
- [37:33]
Mike Pesca
Yep. For whatever reason, they're just the chicks.
- [37:36]
Max Kerman
The chicks. That's right in the middle of the second chorus, second verse, it launches into some, like, instrumental orchestra part, which makes no sense, but it's actually the most compelling part of the song. It's like, why is that instrumental part happening before the second chorus? And you know, when they're writing that song, there's like, it just kind of demands it, that that's what we need to do. And so there is so. And that. That's what makes songwriting so interesting, is that there are rules, but you can break them if it feels right.
- [38:06]
Mike Pesca
When you.
- [38:06]
Max Kerman
And what feels right is subjective.
- [38:08]
Mike Pesca
When you're writing Knocking on the Door, when you say it demands it, do you mean it just happens, or were you. That's an interesting story of how you wrote that song and how it was like a third of a song and it got huge before it was even complete. And by the way, I've read stories about How Foreigner had Hot Blooded. Just the chorus, and they had nothing else, that song, anything but the chorus. And they would just play the chorus, and the fans would go nuts. And they're like, we gotta. We gotta do something else with this song. So that's an. That's an analog. But was it. Were you saying to yourself, ah, there's something here, or was it more. It just happened? You're like, that's right.
- [38:45]
Max Kerman
Well, the. The bridge breaks down to the sort of, like, gospel part, and then it has this big crescendo buildup, and we realize that the natural energy of that big crescendo buildup made the tempo go faster, and it made the tempo go faster for the final chorus. So do we just keep the tempo at that. That speed that we've arrived at, or do we drop it back out of principle? Because the song shouldn't change, Damn it. The principle is like. Yeah, yeah. It's like, songs shouldn't change in tempo. But, you know. And actually, what I've learned recently, and this is a new lesson I just learned, is Dan Nigro, who's the producer of Olivia Rodrigo and Chapel Ron, famously, in his in Chapel Ron song, good Luck, Babe, the tempo goes from like 118 in the verses to 116 in the choruses, which is sort of strange and unusual. But he explains it. He goes, you know what? You just want to sink into that chorus a little bit. And you. And you can't quite do it if it stays at 118. So the. So the courses are 116 and the verses are 118. I'm like, you can. And I'm learning it. I'm learning this six months ago. I'm like, you can do that? I didn't know you could do that, but I guess you can do that, huh?
- [39:51]
Mike Pesca
Does that. No listener will consciously experience that, right? No, yeah.
- [39:58]
Max Kerman
No, I didn't.
- [39:58]
Mike Pesca
That's interesting.
- [39:59]
Max Kerman
But it felt good. But it felt good. Yeah, clearly.
- [40:02]
Mike Pesca
What about bigger changes? Bigger changes in tempo? I know. Franz Ferdinand, Take Me out or something like that.
- [40:09]
Max Kerman
Oh, yeah, those are rare. And if you can pull them off, great. But very rare. That's like.
- [40:15]
Mike Pesca
That's almost like a day in a lot. A day in the life change of Tampa.
- [40:18]
Max Kerman
Yeah, yeah, totally. That's a kind of two different songs piece together.
- [40:21]
Mike Pesca
Have you ever done one like that?
- [40:23]
Max Kerman
Have we ever done. We have a song called Agent Zero off our second record, which is about Gilbert Arenas and some gunplay.
- [40:31]
Mike Pesca
I think we talked about it once on the show. Yes.
- [40:33]
Max Kerman
Yeah, we Might have. And then the second half turns in. It starts into this sort of moody minor key, dreamy thing. And then the second half is this, like, Fleetwood Mac kind of upbeat feeling. And so that's. That's a version of like, kind of.
- [40:46]
Mike Pesca
Two songs in one have. You've done slow, slow, fast songs, right? You've done your. You've done your Free Birds, you've done your Pixies, Nirvana type songs.
- [40:57]
Max Kerman
Yeah. So what is slow, slow, fast?
- [40:59]
Mike Pesca
Well, it's just the Pixies idea that Nirvana took, that you start off slow, you keep it slow, and then once you get fast, it is very pleasing and becomes a. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, that trick. Other one, though, is the. Is the fast slow song, which is Layla. I don't know if you've ever done one like that.
- [41:17]
Max Kerman
Yeah, yeah, that's. No, I don't think we've ever done anything like that. The dramatic, you know, outro.
- [41:24]
Mike Pesca
And Is Layla. Two different songs. Do you think that works?
- [41:28]
Max Kerman
It is kind of. Yeah.
- [41:29]
Mike Pesca
See, I thought Free Bird, really. The slow part suggests the fast part, but it's very hard to do slow, fast. Why would it happen? I don't know. Maybe when band members are stealing each other's wives or something that.
- [41:41]
Max Kerman
Yeah.
- [41:43]
Mike Pesca
When you're writing a song, when do you bring the bandmates in?
- [41:48]
Max Kerman
You know, this kind of goes back to something we touched on earlier, where I don't really have a particular process for writing a song. And so, you know, sometimes the guys send me instrumental pieces, and I write to that, and that's a really satisfying way to write. And it's. And it's different for me because I don't know what the chords are. And my ear is not so good that I'm going, oh, he's going from the one to the four to the minor third, six to. You know, I don't think. I just hear the piece of music, and if it grabs me, I can start humming stuff over top. So, like.
- [42:19]
Mike Pesca
But to interrupt, you also wrote a book and recently admitted on your podcast you don't know the difference between nouns and adjectives.
- [42:24]
Max Kerman
Oh, my God. You listen to that? Yeah, there's a lot of technical stuff.
- [42:28]
Mike Pesca
Then you said adverbs, and this is why you're friends with those guys who are like, well, no one knows what adverbs are. Come on, don't be crazy.
- [42:35]
Max Kerman
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff I don't know, but.
- [42:38]
Mike Pesca
So the first is suspiciously. Does not know about adverbs.
- [42:42]
Max Kerman
Can we stop talking about this? Make me uncomfortable. There's a song off our record, Laundry Pots. The last song on the record is a beautiful piano composition that Mike wrote. Our guitarist wrote this piano composition. And I don't know what the chords are, but I just wrote some words over top of it and some melodies, and that's how that song began. And we have other songs that Tony started. And Knocking at the door was started by Tim's drum beat, and I was playing along to that. And sometimes it's just me sitting at the piano, you know, with some chords and some melodies. So. And sometimes it's working with the outside producer or songwriter that. That starts an idea. So I do like this idea that, like, a song can start from anywhere. And when you think about hip hop, that that whole genre is just like, you know, in many cases, just taking a sample from another song and creating another. A whole other thing from it. So it's. So we're not inventing the wheel on any level. It just. I think rock bands sometimes feel pigeonholed to, like, a. A certain way of making. Making them a song.
- [43:43]
Mike Pesca
Do the other guys in the band, are they always happy to go along with your harebrained schemes? The choreography, flying to Korea on a whim. I mean, this is something that you and manager Ash decide and then, like, you hope the other guys are like, yes, we will come to Korea with you, Max, or whatever. The choreography, the laundry stick, everything.
- [44:03]
Max Kerman
Yeah, no, I think no, it's a pretty supportive unit. And I think there's plenty of cases where they've said, max, is that a really a good idea? And then I have to stop and I go, that's not a good idea. I want to make it clear.
- [44:14]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, that was a good amount of Max. But, you know, he plays two hours in concert, so we have more. We have more on the Pesca plus offerings. Go to mike pesca.com to sign up for bonus material that only Pesca plus subscribers. The real patrons of the Pesca plus creative enterprise support. That's subscribe.mikepeska.com and that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the gist. He's back. Shel Peska, CBSO of Peach Fish Productions. Astrid Green runs our social. Leo Baum is our intern. So many more people to thank and get to. But most of all, you. You're the real heroes. Umpru G Peru duparu and thanks for listening.