Michael Townsend & Jeremy Workman: "Secret Mall Apartment"

Summary

---

The Gist – Episode Summary

Episode: Michael Townsend & Jeremy Workman: "Secret Mall Apartment"
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guests: Michael Townsend (artist, subject of "Secret Mall Apartment"), Jeremy Workman (director of the documentary)
Date: October 20, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this episode of The Gist, Mike Pesca delves into the story behind the new documentary "Secret Mall Apartment" with its subject, artist Michael Townsend, and director Jeremy Workman. The episode explores the remarkable true tale of a group of Providence artists who covertly built and inhabited a fully furnished apartment within the massive Providence Place Mall for multiple years in the early 2000s. The discussion highlights themes of gentrification, urban transformation, the evolution of city culture, and the tension between art and commerce—while also reflecting on how such a project would be virtually impossible today. Beyond the documentary's wild premise, deep questions arise about surveillance, artistic protest, impermanence, and what it meant to “live” between the cracks of early-aughts America.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Providence’s Transformation and the Birth of the Mall (09:45–13:25)

• Context: In the 1990s, Providence, Rhode Island, saw rapid urban change under the controversial but effective Mayor Buddy Cianci. Artists benefitted from cheap rents in old mill buildings, forming a vibrant creative community.
• Emergence of the Mall:
  • The Providence Place Mall, one of America’s last super-regional malls, opened in 1999—”the largest construction project in Providence’s history, the largest tax break in Providence’s history,” as Michael Townsend states.
  • Simultaneously, artists’ neighborhoods were demolished to make way for new developments:

    “All these industrial mill buildings were viewed as blank canvases. Artists were living in them. But developers looked at it as blank space for the next strip mall. And there begins the great tension.” (Michael Townsend, 12:04)

• Effects on Artists: Hundreds of artists lost homes and studios, directly relating their struggles to the encroaching presence of the mall.

2. Genesis of the Secret Mall Apartment (13:25–19:18)

• “Week in the Mall” (2003): After losing their own spaces, Townsend and friends decided to intimately explore the mall by camping in it for a week, prompting the central dilemma: “if you commit yourself to saying, we're not leaving this building for a week, your number one problem becomes, where do you sleep at night?” (Townsend, 15:50)
• Incremental Development: What started as urban camping morphed into a larger art project—a true “secret apartment” hidden inside the mall’s infrastructure.
• Not a Political Statement—At First:

  “No, not at all…we’re giving you the blurted, short version…but this is the challenge for Jeremy…He’s got to try to, in under an hour and a half, dissect why this could possibly happen.” (Townsend, 15:57)

• Universality: The story resonated with audiences in other cities—“This is not a Providence issue. This is a, like, big city issue. And it's national.” (Townsend, 16:34)

3. The Art, Motivations, and Methodology (19:18–24:04)

• Artist Backgrounds:
  • The project came from a collective well-versed in guerrilla art, previously executing a vast, unsanctioned September 11th memorial in New York:

    “…doing life size silhouettes…drawn directly on the buildings of Manhattan without permission…that turns you into somebody who's a little bit…'art righteous,' where you're like, I feel that this is an important thing to do and I'm willing to take the risk.” (Townsend, 19:46)

  • All of their art was temporary, leading to a habit of documenting their work obsessively.
• Relationship with Legality: “We were used to sort of living in that gray space between legal and not legal.” (Townsend, 19:38)

4. Documentary Approach: Footage, Tone & Serendipity (22:12–25:30)

• Archival Goldmine:
  • The artists filmed ~25 hours of footage inside the secret apartment—for their own documentation, not for a future film.
  • The technical quality (grainy, early-2000s digital video) ends up enhancing the authenticity:

    “The footage was so good that they captured. They really filmed everything that…the technical quality doesn't matter, just because it's so incredible to sort of watch this and be alongside.” (Workman, 23:19)

• Unexpected Candidness: Key moments, such as breaking up with a partner in the food court, were captured:

  “Michael breaks up with his wife at the food court and it's like recorded in this crappy camera that, you know, nobody has seen.” (Workman, 25:30)

• Not Documentarians by Design:

  “…a big one is like, why did you film, like, was it ever meant to be a movie? No. Like a hard, hard no on that. The reason we're filming is because our tape artwork is temporary … puts you in the habit of documenting everything.” (Townsend, 24:04)

5. The Impossible Project in the Era of Social Media (26:06–28:25)

• Pre-iPhone World: The project ended just months after the first iPhone—no culture of constant recording.
• A Lost Era:

  “It couldn’t happen today. No one would be able—eight people couldn’t keep this off social media today.” (Pesca, 27:58)

  • Both the artists and, in today’s world, random mall-goers would have publicized such a secret instantly.
• Changing Meaning of Malls:

  “You're reminded like, oh yeah, like it wasn't that long ago when people really thought malls were these great places that we could all come together and be together and they were going to save our communities.” (Workman, 28:25)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Providence’s Changing Landscape:

  “You've got a super center of three to 500 artists within a couple city blocks, all living, working on the cheap. On the cheap means you're paying 200 to $300 a month … one of the strongest epicenters of artists in the United States.”
  —Michael Townsend (11:11)

• On the Artistic Motivation and Ethical Ambiguity:

  “We were used to sort of living in that gray space between legal and not legal.”
  —Michael Townsend (19:38)

• On the Core of the Story:

  “This is not a Providence issue. This is a, like, big city issue. And it's national.”
  —Michael Townsend (16:45)

• On the Power and Limits of Documentation:

  “We were shooting it basically for in house... that footage was parked on a hard drive. And that hard drive… survived for almost 20 years…”
  —Michael Townsend (24:04)

• On Cultural Changes & Social Media:

  “I think…not just those eight people, but the entirety of the mall population and society itself. So inevitably somebody would point a phone at us…and start posting. So there would be a record… just from the pedestrians who are filming all the time.”
  —Michael Townsend (27:58)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Providence’s Artistic Community and Urban Transformation – 09:45–13:25
• Birth of the Secret Mall Apartment & Relationship with the Mall – 13:25–17:32
• Director’s Perspective – Discovery of the Story’s Depth – 17:32–19:13
• Art Practices and Ethos of the Collective – 19:18–22:12
• Archival Footage: Technical Limits, Candid Moments – 22:12–25:30
• Reflections on Pre-Smartphone Culture & Impossibility Today – 26:06–28:25

---

Episode Tone and Style

Mike Pesca maintains his characteristic tone: inquisitive, wry, and lightly skeptical. He probes beneath the surface of headline-friendly oddity to highlight the seriousness and resonance of the story, yet keeps the discussion accessible and often humorous. Jeremy Workman and Michael Townsend match him with direct, thoughtful answers—punctuated by self-deprecating artist wit.

---

For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

• Urban change, artist protest, and subversive creativity—all wrapped in a tale that is stranger than fiction but deeply relevant to American cities everywhere.
• Insight into lost urban environments: What happens when creative spaces yield to corporate ambitions?
• A unique pre-social media feat: A demonstration of how much the texture of urban life, secrecy, and protest has changed in just twenty years.
• For creatives and activists: A reminder of the gray-zone bravery, humor, and camaraderie that meaningful protest—and meaningful art—can foster.

---

Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Jeff Bridges]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts.

[Dana]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Jeff Bridges]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me. So Dana.

[Dana]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Jeff Bridges]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Michael Townsend]

Nice.

[Dana]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Jeff Bridges]

T Mobile is the best place to.

[Michael Townsend]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible trade in in any condition.

[Jeff Bridges]

So what are we having for launch?

[Michael Townsend]

Dud.

[Dana]

My work here is done.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

24 monthly bill credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credits ended balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove Speed Test Intelligence data. 182025 Visit T mobile.com.

[Mike Pesca]

It's Monday, October 20, 2025 from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca and President Trump is now once more crosswise with Vladimir Zelinsky, wanting him to give back some territory to get this peace deal done. Trump's 8th. 28th. Something like this. We don't know how this is going to play out. And there's a lot of toing and froing in peace talks, isn't there? There is one aspect of one of the conditions, or I should say one of the ideas undergirding the conflict that I do want to talk about. And this was asked on Face the Nation by host Margaret Brennan to Christine Lagarde, who who used to run the imf, now she's the European Central bank president. And it's the idea of we have all these frozen Russian funds. Why not use those funds to give a loan to Ukraine Collateral. Here's that back and forth.

[Michael Townsend]

So if all those countries holding assets.

[Nicole Malliotakis]

That have cash balances available as collaterals.

[Michael Townsend]

Go in the same direction of lending.

[Nicole Malliotakis]

The money to Ukraine to be repaid.

[Michael Townsend]

By Russian financing of the reconstruction of.

[Nicole Malliotakis]

Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor then.

[Mike Pesca]

I think that that would long way.

[Nicole Malliotakis]

In convincing Russia that it has to.

[Michael Townsend]

Come to the table to negotiate.

[Mike Pesca]

What I think no one is saying, I hate to be all Trumpian about the no one's saying, but I haven't heard too many people saying there's a lot of illogic to this. So the Europeans and Lagarde don't want to just take the Russians money. I mean they might want to, but they see the downside of that. So they create this, I don't know, do si. Do couple step process by which the Ukrainians get a loan and the collateral for the loan is the Russians money. But what is collateral? I mean Christine Lagarde is a central banker. But I think even you understand this, even I understand this collateral is if you don't pay the loan, they will take that money in lieu of the non payment. So it is just a way to say all right, we're going to give the Ukrainians money and what's backing up that money is the Russian loan. They're not willing to say we're taking the Russians money, but in offering the Russians money as collateral, you are willing to say we will be willing to take the Russians money. And here's the other aspect of it. What would incentivize the Ukrainians to pay back that loan? The downside is their loan gets paid off by our greatest enemy's assets. That's something the Ukrainians don't want. So Trump and Scott Besant have come out against the idea of this European loan. And I don't know if that scotches the deal. You heard Christine Lagarde saying we have to be all coordinated on this. I think she meant the Europeans. But without Trump's buy in, is this a full coordination of a pretty, I'm not going to say bad idea, but not an honest idea? If the idea was the Ukrainians can't take the Russians money, that would be honest. But the Ukrainians can get a lot of money and if they choose to repay it, the Russians money won't be taken. But if they choose not to or can't, then the Russians money will be taken. Only we don't want to have to face that possibility or say it out loud right now. I don't know. That is maybe you could call it a diplomatic solution but not the honest form of diplomacy. On the show today inside the no Kings rally, they Might not have been that cool, they might not have been that effective. But I'm glad they happened and I'll tell you why. But first what a documentary I am going to bring to you. It is the kind of documentary that sells itself. Secret Mall Apartment. Now you get it. It's about a group of people who are very upset that they put them all in Providence where their community used to be. And so they took action by moving inside the mall without telling anyone. There was artists collective vision going on, a little bit of punk aesthetic and just really cool head slapping. Are you kidding me? I can't believe that happened. And I can't believe that happened. Next, the star or main mover into the mall, Michael Townsend, joins me as does the director of this documentary, Jeremy Workman, stops by the Gist again to talk about the secret mall apartment. Claude is, oh, a pal, my AI assistant who has helped me with many tasks, tasks that you can see as say a GIST subscriber or a just listener. So on, on the Mike Pesca webpage we're starting to put together these little bundles to introduce the kind of interviews I do. I've done 10 years of shows, so I don't know, I don't know about the groupings, I don't know about which were the good interviews. So I started loading information into Claude. I loaded. Luckily we have a spreadsheet that actually CLAUDE helped make loading information in asking Claude to suggest different combinations of different categories. And it's not up yet, but it's going to get there. And it really would have taken hours more without Claude and it wouldn't have been really, really good like I think it's going to be. So it thinks deeper about challenges than I would have. It is the sort of thing sometimes it does orthogonal thinking where I wouldn't have put this military expert and that science guy together and call it oh thought leaders. So Claude was, I will divulge one of those services that I decided to pay for before I knew they would even advertise. And when they said, hey, you want to do an ad? I said, yeah. So I could say things like, Claude Code is a game changer for developers. It works directly in your terminal. It understands your entire code base and handles complex engineering tasks. Ready to tackle bigger problems. Sign up for Claude today and get 50% off Claude Pro when you use my link Claude AI the gist. That's Claude AI the gist right now for 50% off your first three months at Claude Pro. That includes access to all the features that I Mentioned in today's episode. Claude AI Slide. Progressive knows we all crave validation. Girl, you are not 37. I would have guessed 27.

[Dana]

You guys are too sweet.

[Mike Pesca]

Sure. Dewy skin.

[Jeremy Workman]

Terrific.

[Dana]

Is something wrong, Ned?

[T-Mobile Announcer]

Why would you ask?

[Mike Pesca]

Just because Today marks my 10th anniversary without a car accident or even a speeding ticket. But somehow tonight's all about your skin care.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

Wow. With snapshot from Progressive you can get.

[Mike Pesca]

A personalized rate based on how you drive. And that's all the validation you need.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliate snapshot not available in California from all agents Surcharge possible for unsafe price living.

[Mike Pesca]

So a lot of times you maybe have seen this in your city. Retail establishment will go up and then in conjunction they'll have apartments and they'll give themselves a name. I have a list of a couple here. The residences at Park District. That's in Dallas or in Los Angeles you might run into the residences at Westfield Century City or in Chicago there's the residences at New City. See the trend. It's not just an apartment, it's the residences. Gussies it up, makes it grand. Well, going to tell you about another such residence and it was a residence with residents so much so that they just came out with a documentary about it. It is called Secret Mall Apartment. So none of this highfalutin branding. And the man who spearheaded the secret mall apartment was Michael. And is Michael Townsend. The director of the documentary Secret Mall Apartment a title that doesn't give away too much but really does tell the story is Jeremy Workman who returns to the gist. Hey Jeremy. Hey Michael. Thanks for coming.

[Michael Townsend]

Howdy.

[Jeremy Workman]

Nice. Thanks for having us. Fun to be back.

[Mike Pesca]

So we will start and this is a bit of a recitation of some of the things in the documentary. But Michael, you're a. What's the demonym from someone from Providence. Providence Providential. What would you.

[Michael Townsend]

Oh gosh prob folk.

[Mike Pesca]

Your Prof. You're so you were among the proud, proud folk God fearing people and you saw your city essentially slowly destroyed, especially the places that you had been living and maybe squatting. Your. Your you're a guy with an artistic bent. So situate us to the construction of this mall which is this promised revitalization project that Mayor Buddy Cianci who the documentary doesn't even get into that though that could have been another 20 minutes. Situate us as to what you were thinking and what you were seeing as this mall was going.

[Michael Townsend]

So the 90s here in Providence, Rhode island were great decade of transformation. The city was had big hopes and dreams. Buddy Cianci was at the helm, and he was a mayor who, for the short version of it, is super corrupt.

[Mike Pesca]

Super, but great at it. You gotta give him the nod.

[Michael Townsend]

The man got things done. So you have.

[Mike Pesca]

They made a musical about.

[Michael Townsend]

With two things simultaneously happening because of him. You have a big mall, a super regional shopping mall, one of the last in the United States to be built. It's going to be the largest construction project in Providence's history. It's going to be the largest tax break in Providence's history, and it's going to open in 1999. Simultaneously, Buddy Cianci is turning a blind eye to all of the slum landlords who are letting artists live and work in gigantic industrial mill buildings. So all of a sudden, you've got a super center of three to 500 artists within a couple city blocks, all living, working on the cheap. On the cheap means you're paying 200 to $300 a month, and you can live and work. So this creates one of the strongest epicenters of artists in the United States.

[Mike Pesca]

Both of these, plus risd, plus brown, plus a number of natural factors. I mean, there's a kind of punk music scene that maybe started because of it, but took advantage of it.

[Michael Townsend]

Right. So there are artists internationally who understand that if you move to Providence, you are pretty much guaranteed cheap, big space. These two dreams, these two. These two like, like streets cross each other. In around 2000, the mall opens, and developers are now like, hey, this seems like a pretty developer city. Friendly, friendly city. Let's bring in more developers. The next big project was at that art supercenter. So all these industrial mill buildings were viewed as blank canvases. Artists were living in them. But developers looked at it as blank space for the next strip hall. And there begins the great tension. Why don't we knock down all of these mill buildings and start building new retail, new businesses? And that's going to create a big, big problem that's going to. That ripple effect means hundreds of artists lose their studios and homes.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, Right. And the place where you were living as artists face the mall was maybe a mile from the mall. Yeah. But there are no entrances for you. That's the. Yeah, it follows the curve of a river and the railroad tracks. But that is not for you. And the prices, as are documented, are not for you.

[Jeremy Workman]

And also make, you know, just keep in mind, this is a mall that a lot of people know. This is the Providence place mall.

[Michael Townsend]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

This is the. This is the Providence place mall.

[Jeremy Workman]

Of course, I Know this landmark in downtown Providence? Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Let me tell you, my biggest heartbreak of the last year took place pretty much in the Providence Place Mall. Yes. I went to see St. John's to John Calipari in what was called the Dunkin Donut Center. Now it has another name, but everything's kind of attached to the mall, thanks to this buddy Seancey project. So, yeah, I saw that, and I cried at the Providence Place Mall. But now I was enraptured by what I found was going on there. So you and your friends, Michael, move in. Move in. Officially. Not officially. Quite unofficially.

[Michael Townsend]

Well, in 2003. So this is a couple years after it's opened. We have spent those years between the opening of 99 and 2003 fighting to save our own neighborhoods. That is a lot of really boring stuff. Those are city hall meetings. Those are activist campaigns trying to at least save the mill buildings themselves in the hopes that that would sort of anchor the ability for this neighborhood to have its historical backbone in place. That fight ends with my mill building, where I live, getting knocked to the ground. And so we lost. We lost our homes and studios during this whole time. The mall is sort of seen as the biggest domino in the chain. Like, it's not. It's not the first one, but it's the one that we can clearly see has tipped the ones that knock over our homes. And we.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, right. Like before the Death Star, the Empire had those cruisers that would threaten star systems. But with the Death Star, it became.

[Michael Townsend]

Really a good way of saying this. Yes. So we're. So we're going after the Cruiser at this point, and we started exploring them all. So in 2003, we did week in the mall. Week in the mall was based on the idea that we should get to know them all intimately. And in the course of doing that, if you commit yourself to saying, we're not leaving this building for a week, your number one problem becomes, where do you sleep at night? Right.

[Mike Pesca]

So before we get to that, were you conscious that you were doing recon for a bigger project? Be a political art?

[Michael Townsend]

No, not at all. And the movie does a really good job of showing these incremental steps. And this is. This. This is a really. You know, we're giving you sort of like the blurted, short version of it. But this is the challenge for Jeremy because he's got to try to, in under an hour and a half, dissect why this could possibly happen. And he came to Providence and talked to the best talking heads he could to construct the context for it. And I've been very, very, you know, lucky. Last year was on the film festival circuit. I got to watch this movie in other cities and see the responses of audiences relate to it immediately. They're like, this is not a Providence issue. This is a, like, big city issue. And it's national. And so I think the people can connect to this movie no matter where you are.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So you and three others at the beginning did a week in the mall and figured you would and did essentially camp out in really crappy spaces, whatever you could find, barely indoors. A lot of outdoor urban camping. But then. And we'll get to how it really becomes true that the. The title of the movie is apt. Secret Mall Apartment. But Jeremy, when you got in there, when you first. Either first or second heard about the story, it's reported on the news, the headline is very weird and quirky. Secret Mall Apartment. Did you know that there was so much beyond that. Beyond that fact, that very attention arresting fact that actually adds up to a story with an ar.

[Jeremy Workman]

I mean, not at first. And I think that's what's incredible about this story, is that you hear it and you're like, oh, this is some clickbait thing, you know, like, oh, my God, they live in a. In a secret apartment in a busy mall for four years, you know, and it's just. You're immediately like, oh, this is insane. This is some prank. And what was fascinating was that kind of process of getting to know Michael and the seven other artists that it was so much more than that. And that was when I. It was a real revelation to me that there was so much more to this and that it could really sustain as. As a whole film. I mean, obviously this is one of the greatest, like, pranks that's probably ever been put to film. I mean, that we should mention that when they lived in the mall for four years, they. And live in. I put in quotes, you know, they were going back and forth using it as this headquarters. But when they were in this space for four years, they were filming everything along the way. So you. It really is like one of the greatest, like, pranks you've ever seen committed to film. But then when you kind of start peeling that onion, you start realizing, like, wow, there's so much more to this. It's this stance against gentrification. It's this fight against, you know, what was happening in Providence at the time. It's this, like, you know, middle finger to, you know, what was happening in the early 2000s with the corporatization of our cities. It's this artwork unto itself. It was this, you know, stage that they were creating to sort of show the world. So had all this sort of shapeshifting, shape shifting aspect. And that also really appealed to me.

[Mike Pesca]

Michael, was it all those things to all the other residents?

[Michael Townsend]

Yes, we. Jeremy got the green light to be the director of this movie because he seemed to understand that the mall narrative is obviously the draw in, but you're dealing with a team of eight artists, Artists who are making lots of other artworks. And those other artworks are informing who they are as people and how they approach. Approach this puzzle of trying to live in the mall. The fact that we pulled it off for as long as we did is because of the other types of art that we were doing. We were used to sort of living in that gray space between legal and not legal. And two years leading up to making the apartment in the mall, that team of eight artists were engaged in a gigantic rogue September 11th memorial in Manhattan where we had dedicated our time to doing life size, like really simple life size silhouettes of every single airline passenger and fireman who died at the World Trade center. And that's 500 locations drawn directly on the buildings of Manhattan without permission. That turns you into somebody who's a little bit. Hopefully this isn't a negative phrase, but like art righteous, where you're like, I feel that this is an important thing to do and I'm willing to take the risk to draw on this building without permission, Be it a federal building, retail construction, you know, bank. We're just. We're going to do it. We're going to document.

[Mike Pesca]

We should point out that Michael is the world's best, or perhaps only tape artist. The silhouettes are done in tape, which is great. It's a statement, especially with 9 11. It's a statement of impermanence. Now, some of it, and this is all in the movie, we should also point out that when connected, all of the silhouettes formed hearts on the island of Manhattan. But apparently I would take it, since you see a couple silhouettes right there on a fire station, that those guys at least loved what you were doing and said you. We all see footage of people tearing the tape down. So it must have been many different reactions while you were doing this. Yeah, yeah. You would drive down from Providence, you would put up this tape. The righteousness of the artist. I'll editorialize and say the beauty of the art. Yeah. I want to ask you though, in terms of you, Jeremy, as the director and the art and the aesthetic of the movie. It was. It's very important that it was filmed at the time. So this wasn't all done or told in retrospect. There is existing footage of this precursor, of course, to an iPhone there that had really shitty and grainy footage, but it could record audio, and it did record footage. My question is, did you wish that the footage were better? Because obviously the quality of it lent something.

[Michael Townsend]

Sure.

[Mike Pesca]

Did you ever at times say, oh, my God, I can't even use this, if only I could.

[Jeremy Workman]

Yeah, I mean, it was. First of all, it was astonishing when I found out, like, how much they had filmed. They had filmed 25 hours inside the secret apartment in this mall.

[Libsyn Ads Narrator]

So.

[Jeremy Workman]

So when I say that, I mean, like, literally them furnishing it, bringing in, you know, china hutches, furniture, you know, kitchen supplies, couches, going through security and through the caverns of the mall, and.

[Mike Pesca]

At one point, the couches up the stairwell shot is unbelievable.

[Jeremy Workman]

It's staggering, you know, and in one of their biggest, grandest gestures, they decide to build a separate cinder block wall inside the secret apartment in this busy mall. And all this. They're filming. They're filming. And they're filming in really impressive ways. And they're all using this camera that, you know, Michael probably bought it, you know, like Radio Shack at the time for $89.

[Mike Pesca]

That was shooting at probably a lot more, actually.

[Michael Townsend]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

But it was. Knowing Tandy prices back, it was shooting.

[Jeremy Workman]

At 320 by 240, like 12 frames a second or something like that. And, you know, when you as a documentary filmmaker, when you hear that, you're like, oh, crap, I'm never gonna be able to release this movie because, you know, you could never put that on the screen. But what was so heartening was that the footage was so good that they captured. They really filmed everything that the quality, the technical quality doesn't matter, just because it's so incredible to sort of watch this and be alongside. And, you know, a lot of people ask Michael, as you might Mike, that, you know, were they trying to make a documentary the whole time? And really, I think the answer is like, no. It seems like you guys were just kind of, like, capturing footage.

[Michael Townsend]

Yeah. Big question in Q and A's. So I've been done close to 100 Q&As. That's. So people watch the film, and after the film, we answer audience questions, and a big one is like, why did you film, like, if. Was it ever meant to be a movie? No. Like a hard, hard no on that. The reason we're filming is because our tape artwork is temporary. It is designed to be put on walls and removed shortly after. And that puts you in the habit of documenting everything, documenting the finished product, documenting the process. And so this team of artists had gotten really used to in the two years leading up to us building this apartment, turning the camera on ourselves and trying to capture what we were doing. And so when we were filming, we were filming it with just sort of our normal kind of like cinematic mentality, which is like, ah, we got long shots, close shots, odd shots, conversational shots. So we have all the benchmarks that will help Jeremy in the future. Not knowing that Jeremy's ever going to exist, we were shooting it basically for in house. There's eight of us. Three or four of us might be doing an action and we want to share with the other team. But. But that footage was parked on a hard drive. And that hard drive, it's remarkable that as a digital file, it survived for almost 20 years and we were able to handle.

[Jeremy Workman]

It's also not just footage. It's like incredible, like dialogue. Like he. Michael, like breaks up with his wife at the food court and it's like recorded in this like, crappy camera that, you know, nobody has seen. And like, they're having debates about the meaning of the secret apartment. They're. They're discussing all their art practices and what they're planning to do. And it's just incredible what they were able to capture. And it's just a reminder about, you know, recording at that time and how it translates to now. It's. It's wild, right?

[Michael Townsend]

Yeah. To that point, I was, I was arrested about two months after the iPhone came out. So that sort of gives you a sense of where we are in the tech timeline. So people are not in the habit of turning a camera on themselves, especially video. So the video is being shot at arm's length. The video is being shot by placing the camera near us and just letting it roll. And the, the relationship to the camera is very different than it is now. If I point an iPhone at anybody, the assumption is it's going to be shadow.

[Mike Pesca]

When you broke up. So when you broke up in the food court, did she say, you took me to the finest restaurant around?

[Michael Townsend]

Right, right in town, yes.

[Mike Pesca]

So I. What you just said, the timeline of technology, it very much impressed upon me so much of this film. I was thinking exactly about the time period. So much of it was very early aughts, little details. At one point, one of you says, we got to see every movie. So that was cool. I said to myself that would be unexceptional in 2025. Another. Yeah, another aspect of it, and I want to get to this more was everyone was unified by doing something and something positive. About 911 I did. I don't think there is a unifying force that especially artists or street artists would be driven by today. The biggest thing was today it would be almost impossible, I think, for artists or anyone to embark upon a project this ambitious that is kind of this cool and not tell everyone about it. The whole point of this was that no one could know and that's just totally antithetical to the ethos of today. It couldn't happen today. No one would be able. Eight people couldn't keep this off social media today.

[Michael Townsend]

Right? And I think not just those eight people, but but the entirety of the mall population and society itself. So inevitably somebody would point a phone at us in a parking garage and be like, who are these fools with cinder blocks? Lol. Yeah. And start posting. So there would be a record of our activities just from the pedestrians who are filming all the time.

[Jeremy Workman]

I also think it does this neat thing where it's like, it reminds you also about like what malls meant, you know, besides the changing time of social media and technology. You're reminded like, oh yeah, like it wasn't that long ago when people really thought malls were these great places that we could all come together and be together and they were going to save our communities. It really was not that long ago.

[Mike Pesca]

Jeremy Workman, Michael Townsend are the director and main subject respectively of Secret Mall Apartment. Gentlemen, thank you so much.

[Jeremy Workman]

All right, thank you so much for having us, Mike. What a blast.

[Mike Pesca]

The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Jeff Bridges]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Dana]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Jeff Bridges]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana.

[Dana]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Jeff Bridges]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best nut work.

[Jeremy Workman]

Nice.

[Dana]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Jeff Bridges]

T Mobile is the best place to.

[Michael Townsend]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition.

[Jeff Bridges]

So what are we having for lunch?

[Dana]

Dude, my work here is done.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

The 24 month bill credits on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and 35 device connection charge credits ended balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance Agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 and new line minimum 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile networking US based on analysis by Oakland Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025 is a T mobile.com.

[Mike Pesca]

And now the spiel. The no Kings march has attracted millions. Organizers say 7 million others less motivated. Sources put it at a few million less. It was still a lot and it worked. We have no kings. But in all seriousness, it's important to have protest. No, not just in the it makes America what it is and expressing our constitutionally protected rights sense. That's all true. But protest, mass protest, is useful as an escape valve. If regimes disallowed protests, they would be asking for trouble. That's why they complain about it, try to make hay of it. But actually banning it would be a giant mistake. Just participating in fact, as far as a release valve does make citizens feel good, feel useful. And isn't that what politics is all about? No, it's not. Politics is for power. To quote Tufts professor and past just guest Ethan Hirsch. Yes, but not wallowing in helplessness, not stewing in resentment. Feeling that you can do something often leads to actually doing something. Positive outcomes. Okay, that's a little abstract. Or should I say conditional? Because it works like this, right? A protest leads to a feeling of agency, leads to success at the polls. Yeah, maybe. Or maybe if the Democrats continue with their very sad registration numbers, they'll be sunk. You know, the Republicans are up close to well around two and a half million since 2020, and Democrats are down by almost that much. Want to know why? Well, New York Representative Nicole Malliotakis has a theory. She was on cnn.

[Nicole Malliotakis]

This group is associated with the radical left. On their flyer. Look at the sponsors. You had the Communist Party of the United States of America. You had the Socialist Party of America. These are radical left groups. They are the sponsors of this march. So the good people that were there because they wanted to send a message, guess what they've associated themselves with? Communists.

[Mike Pesca]

The communists. Like Alger Hiss Communists. Well, I guess I checked out the flyer and by the way, do you think your aunt, your high school friends or you who attended would have heard about it without the flyer. This was a leaflet based marketing campaign. But anyway, they're on. The flyer of the New York City no Kings rally is the logo of the Communist Party. Same with the Minnesota no Kings flyer. I didn't check every flyer because it's not 1807. I do know that it's not on the National Committee's flyer. I have no idea what these local organizing committees have as standards or even who they are. Or is it very important that some organization that has the URL NYC no Kings puts whoever they put on their flyers. I guess though, however, we shall say there is a communist logo within. So why does Nicole Mallee attack us? Say it. Well, it resonates very deeply with people who would never ever go to a no Kings rally and very likely would never vote Democrat. You know, Donald Trump posted on his Truth Social account an AI generated video of him flying a fighter jet. That's when I suspected it might have been AI and from the jet he dumps excrement kaka poop on the crowd below. When asked about this, the White House said, quote, who cares? Mike Johnson did seem to care a little. He was asked by a reporter and he was visibly uncomfortable. He sighed. He was a little taken aback. And then he offered this.

[Michael Townsend]

The President uses social media to make a point. You can argue he's probably the most effective person who's ever used social media for that. He is using satire to make a point. He is not calling for the murder of his political opponents.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, that's true. Well, in this particular instance, who with no kings was calling for murder? It must have been the communists. But it wasn't even the communists. You know, I checked out some postings from the revolutionary Communists of America and this one, this one was from the summer no Kings rally, but they were there. Here's the headline. Phenix quote. This is pretty based. How do I join? Far from a militant atmosphere, the protest featured a bouncy castle and music blaring from loudspeakers on a stage courtesy of no Kings. Our table received a staggering amount of attention. We sold nearly $200 worth of communist literature and made at least 23 contacts. Wow, 23 signups because of revolution and bounce houses reveal the contradictions, I guess. Workers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but your lunch in the bouncy castle. Malliotakis is intellectually consistent in fearing communists under every bed or or in every bombing. Here was her analysis of the US bombing of the Venezuelan boats. Said to be shipping drugs north.

[Nicole Malliotakis]

I think that's the other reason why he is working to advance the relationship with Argentina just like he is with El Salvador, with Paraguay, with like minded countries that we need to be more strategic and involved in Central and South America because communist China is there, Russia is there, our adversaries are there and they're spreading Marxism all across the region.

[Mike Pesca]

Marxism on the march. Except the Marxist leader of Bolivia just lost, replaced by very centrist guy. The US just gave a huge $200 billion backing to the decidedly non Marxist libertarian Argentinian president. Even Uruguay kicked out a conservative but didn't go Marxist. They went with that center left fella. Now there is a Marxist country. There are three Marxist countries in our hemisphere. Couple of the giant basket cases, Nicaragua, of course, Venezuela. But 90 miles to the south we have Cuba. And I hope the US doesn't actually listen to Nicole Mali attack us and say, oh, you're a Marxist, we gotta attack them because that will lead to trouble. You could argue we're already in trouble because who is going to stop a President acting pretty clearly outside the law to the actual documented consternation of Republican senators and Democratic senators in the armed services and foreign affairs committees? Which brings us to what would you say? What would you say about concern that the President was bombing people outside the law and even the legislative branch can't do anything about it? Might you say something like no kings? You might. It might not be the coolest slogan. The flyers might have a stain or two among the sponsoring organizations, but it is a decent enough message. I mean it's two one syllable words. That's always good. It's just not a defining message. You want a real read on the political mood. It's not fake payloads of aerial excrement or communists in the cupboards or supposed death threats. We have two actual states holding actual elections in two actual weeks, New Jersey and Virginia. And that is where the messaging and the demonstrating and the exaggerating about the impact of UN Americanism or anti democratic charges, all that stuff will meet actual democracy and. And at that time, please keep the poop planes grounded. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the gist. Ashley Kahn is our production coordinator. Jeff Craig runs our socials, and Michelle Pesca is the COO of Peach Fish Productions. She cares, improve, do proo. And thanks for listening.

[Libsyn Ads Narrator]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now. And it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.