Progressive Insurance Announcer (3:34)

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Mike Pesca (4:07)

Michelle Tafoya was an important part of the most successful television show in America, many years running. Thursday Night Football. Now she has left that job to host a podcast called Sideline Sanity. Of course, you could argue if focusing on American carnage is what you want to do, there might be no better place than Thursday Night Football. Last night's Colts Broncos game was like the Battle of the Marne. Concussions players carted off the field, a punishing ground game. Ukraine seems like a holiday by comparison. But I did nevertheless ask Michelle what are the issues that she is most driven by. So driven that she chose this. A podcast is her new walk of life.

Michelle Tafoya (4:50)

I see what's going on at the border and it, it worries me greatly. And it's not for any other reason but that I'm a I'm kind of a believer in process and procedure and not chaos. I'm not a big fan of chaos. I think we have stop signs and signals and driving laws so that people don't run into each other. And I think that our immigration laws are being laughed at and abused and not upheld. I am the daughter of a first generation Hispanic man and so I was raised to believe how fortunate I was to live in this country and my ancestors came here legally and I believe that a lot of people who come here legally are feeling very upset and like, wait a minute, I did this the proper way. What is going on? And at a time when we weren't letting people go to the park without a mask on, we were admitting people in from other countries that we knew nothing about. And so I think there's a lot of hypocrisy surrounding this border issue, and it troubles me. And the fact that so much fentanyl is coming across the border and people are ODing because something was laced with fentanyl, it disgusts me. And that the cartels really own our border disgusts me when it doesn't have to be that way. And for some reason, people are turning a blind eye to it and pretending that the border is secure when it is not. That is one.

Mike Pesca (6:34)

You talk a lot about education.

Michelle Tafoya (6:36)

Yes, I do. I think that school choice is. Is a major, major issue. And it, it's. Arizona just passed a law, and I hope that it's a model for other states in the nation to pass similar laws, that the money should follow the child, it shouldn't go to the institution. The institutions are failing, and parents should have a choice of where they get to educate their kids.

Mike Pesca (6:58)

I know you worked for a Minnesota GOP gubernatorial candidate, Kendall Quals. He didn't get the nomination, and, well, they don't really fight it out in Minnesota, do they? He's decided not to run because Dr. Scott Jensen won the nomination in the. In the convention. Am I getting that right?

Michelle Tafoya (7:17)

You. You run for the Republican endorsement, which is at a convention, and it was a very, very, very ugly, embarrassing process if you are a Republican. And so I encouraged Kendall to run in the primary, but he had already stated he was going to honor the endorsement, the party endorsement, and so he came in second. And it was, like I said, I don't want to go into all the details because it would take too long, but to do it justice. But it was a disgusting, ugly, awful process. And so he is now just back in doing work with Take Charge, which is an organization that he believes fervently in and working in that regard. So, no, he is no longer running.

Mike Pesca (8:06)

Do you see your future mostly as a broadcaster, communicator, journalist, or in the realm of politics, political consultancy, that sort of thing?

Michelle Tafoya (8:15)

I don't know about consultancy. I don't know who would come to me and say, hey, you've got a track record. I, I do like talking about stuff. I. I've been asked to run for office. I considered running for office. I'm not going to do it while my kids are young. It just, it kind of gives me a nauseous feeling at this moment to even think about what that would do to them. It's an ugly business, and I have the spine for it. And the thick skin for it. I'm just not sure I have the stomach for it.

Mike Pesca (8:47)

Give me two or three contemporary politicians who you admire, who you'd say I'd like to be a politician like them.

Michelle Tafoya (8:53)

Condoleezza Rice, conservative and just level headed, common sense and really, really bright and incredibly thoughtful. Tim Scott is another. I think those two can, Nikki Haley is probably in there. None of them, none of them Firebrands. None of them, yes, all conservative. But I think thoughtful, thoughtful and common sense leaders.

Mike Pesca (9:25)

What's your assessment of the effect that Trump has had on the party?

Michelle Tafoya (9:29)

I ultimately, I think it's been negative. I'm not going to deny some very productive things happened while he was president. I'll echo my, my cousin who I'll remain nameless right now, but he is also Hispanic and living in New Mexico, who thinks it would be better if Trump did not run. And I, I agree. I think we need some settle time. We, we thought we were going to get it with Biden, but the policies have been so atrocious in my opinion, under Biden that we're experiencing what we're experiencing now. And I think it's, it's been far worse than I ever imagined it could be.

Mike Pesca (10:10)

Do you think that the perpetuation of 2020 election denial gets in the way of conservatives getting their message across? That people just won't hear it as long as you stake your claim to what some call the big lie? What I just think is in a totally inaccurate and false account of what happened last election.

Michelle Tafoya (10:30)

Oh gosh, it's such a, it's such a touchy issue. Here's what I think is getting in everybody's way right now is the lack of so much hypocrisy. So much what about ism? So much, you know, nothing to see here. So much. Yeah, we told you so. So much false falsities being perpetuated and no one trusts anyone anymore. People don't trust the media. I'm sure there are people watching this right now who are questioning your approach and my approach to this whole conversation. When you turn on the news or open a newspaper, which one do you trust? Everyone seems to have an agenda right now and there is no sort of Walter Cronkite, Northern Star that anyone feels they can look to.

Mike Pesca (11:24)

And is your point that you don't have an agenda or at least you're honest about it?

Michelle Tafoya (11:27)

Oh, I think my agenda is to have conversations with people that are sane and that are honest. And I can only be honest about what I believe and what I Feel and my values. And then I try to learn from others and I try to listen really closely to other people. I do want to listen, I do want to learn through all of this. Otherwise there's no point to it. But as far as an agenda, there's nothing malicious about my agenda. It's to try to kind of restore some sane conversation to the, to the, to the, to the public discourse.

Mike Pesca (12:02)

I think I may have asked the last question a little obliquely. I'll just ask you flat out. The 2020 presidential election, who won?

Michelle Tafoya (12:11)

Joe Biden won.

Mike Pesca (12:12)

Yeah.

Michelle Tafoya (12:13)

And what, what, what is, is the question.

Mike Pesca (12:16)

Why would I ask that question?

Michelle Tafoya (12:17)

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Pesca (12:18)

Just be so, so my listeners can understand exactly where you're coming from. I didn't think you'd disagree with that.

Michelle Tafoya (12:24)

Exactly where I'm coming from has very little to do with any election. I, I'm not quite sure why that is a litmus test for people, it seems to be, but it's, that's, that has. My interests in this country are grounded in my own values and not what people believe or don't believe about an election. So I feel as though suddenly that's become some sort of litmus test. And all I can tell you is the election was decided.

Mike Pesca (12:57)

Yeah.

Michelle Tafoya (12:58)

And I'm not an election denier. But I also believe that when people asked questions in the early stages of COVID and got shouted down and called anti science and anti vax and all the rest, that was really a very close minded, uncurious approach to something that was evolving every single day. And so I don't know why people are so adamantly opposed to asking questions. I've been talking lately to a group of people, some famous, some not so, who are vax injured and no one wants to discuss this or even consider the possibility that this is a real thing. Why, why, why, why can we not ask that question? Why are certain questions okay to ask and others aren't okay to ask? This is the United States of America. For now we have free speech. That includes asking questions. And to shut down questioning is to me just why? What are you afraid of? By being curious isn't. What is the problem with being curious? Whether it's about a vaccine, whether or not masks worked, where the virus originated, whether or not someone is benefiting from inside information in Congress, whether or not there are two kinds, two levels of, of law being applied to whether you're an elite or not an elite. Why, why is it not okay to ask questions? Is there an answer to that?

Mike Pesca (14:41)

Yeah, well, the answer is that there are. It's, it's a, a little bit of a nebulous area in that there are certainly some sorts of questions or avenues of questions that you'd never want to ask because they're illegitimate. And even the asking, well, I wouldn't want to get into Holocaust denial. I've been doing this show for seven years, and I ask myself, okay, what's good to ask and what's not to ask? It's an editorial decision about what you ask. And there are certain kinds of questions that even by asking them or having a guest on who purports to have an expertise in those areas, what you're really doing is perpetuating false information. Now, I don't think that a lot of the subject areas you laid out fall into that category of just to ask. It is to perpetuate disinformation. I also think that people who really do want to perpetuate disinformation also bang on about the idea of you're just, just asking questions isn't legitimate. So there's no, you know, clear answer with what's wrong to ask questions. It depends on the kind of questions you ask and who you're asking them to. That's what I would say.

Michelle Tafoya (15:55)

Yeah, I, I'm not big on Holocaust deniers either.

Mike Pesca (15:58)

Yeah, I know. Not my next big booking. And as far as the litmus test, it doesn't work exactly as a litmus test. Where know where your answer, the answer that you give actually tells you much. Unless the answer you give is something like Donald Trump won the election, then it acts. Maybe not as a litmus test, but I would think is close to a major disqualifier.

Michelle Tafoya (16:23)

Disqualifying from what? I just want to know what you are disqualifying certain people from.

Mike Pesca (16:28)

I would say someone who, with all the information available now says Donald Trump didn't win the election, I would have a very hard time trusting their opinion on most everything else. That to me displays either a quality of thinking or a dishonesty if they're a smart person who can think. And so I'd question their judgment about just about everything else that's fair.

Michelle Tafoya (16:53)

Now, does that mean if I sit here and I say to you that Joe Biden won the election, period, the end, and he is a legitimately elected president, If I say that, should we never look into voter fraud of any kind?

Mike Pesca (17:13)

No, no, no, not at all. And in fact, it's fascinating to look at some states, like New York state, which have horrible election laws and all the Worst aspects of laws that are called suppressive in places like Georgia or where Democrats don't always win. That's totally legitimate. But I do think it's a little bit of a. Not a litmus test, but a. You can exclude yourself from being taken seriously if you have the point of view that it was an illegitimate election and Italian satellites controlled it.

Michelle Tafoya (17:47)

Well, I'm curious then, why you saved that question for the end of the interview.

Mike Pesca (17:51)

Oh, that's an interesting question. Why did I. Well, I wanted to establish rapport. I didn't have a list of questions. In fact, I was going off of what you said first, talking about being a sideline reporter, and then we talked about. I mean, the conversation went where the conversation went to. But I did want to leave my listeners with the impression, okay, a lot of people can say, hey, I'm just asking questions. I fall into that category, and Alex Jones falls into the category. So there is a, there is a way, there is a technical taxonomy of the people who are, quote, just asking questions. And I wanted to give my listeners a sense of where you might fall on that spectrum.

Michelle Tafoya (18:27)

That's fair enough. I feel. I just, I want to make sure it's really clear here that it's. It seems like maybe because I'm, first of all, I'm a libertarian, but I'm a conservative libertarian, that because I'm a little bit right of center, that then someone has to ask the question. Do you, you know that question? Is that why you went there with me? Like, if I was left of center, would you have asked it of me?

Mike Pesca (18:53)

I don't know too many people who are left of center who think that Trump won the election. I. My audience.

Michelle Tafoya (18:59)

Isn't it worth asking?

Mike Pesca (19:01)

I mean, in terms of the triage of how much time you have for an interview? I don't know.

Michelle Tafoya (19:06)

I mean, okay, well, that, that's fair. But at the same time, I've just also made it clear that. So I'm just curious because I want to know how you think and how we got here. Because you asked me if I thought Donald Trump was good for the Republican Party, and I said, not really.

Mike Pesca (19:20)

Right. So that really told me a lot of information. And then I think the next follow on is a legitimate question. But were you. I mean, I'll be honest. Were you offended that I asked the question?

Michelle Tafoya (19:32)

Only in that it made me think that you think I'm kind of a little out there. And I don't think I'm out there.

Mike Pesca (19:38)

But I don't. I meant. No, I meant it earnestly. I've listened to a lot of your shows. I mean, we could get into. You had on that woman whose husband and hanged himself after taking an antipsychotic medication, and now she's worried about the role of vaccines. I've done a fair amount of research into vaccines. I think they're generally very safe. But I didn't want to argue that with you. I mean, I think that that's legitimate enough to have a conversation about, and I was to some extent edified by that conversation. I'm not going to rake you over the coals for every single guest you've had. I think. Just think that that's a big one. So my listeners really understand the intellectual tradition that you should best be put inside of. Okay, sorry if. I mean, I didn't. I really didn't mean to offend. If I did.

Michelle Tafoya (20:25)

I'm not offended. I don't get offended. I. I'm. I'm a curious person. I'm a curious person, and I like to know where someone's coming from. So I can tell you this. This reminds me of. I was backstage getting ready for my first appearance on the View, I believe, and I was asked the same question in a. In my dressing room by a producer.

Mike Pesca (20:47)

And the antenna goes up. Yeah, I get it.

Michelle Tafoya (20:49)

And I thought, why am I being asked this? Do I. Am I coming across as something that I'm not? And. And so honestly, it's a curiosity about myself. If. Am I reflecting some sort of belief system that that would warrant this question?

Mike Pesca (21:07)

No, you don't give off those vibes. But I've listened to, you know, 12 of your shows, and I'm going to assume my listeners might know you from the sideline, but not from any of your podcasts. So that's why I did it.

Michelle Tafoya (21:17)

Okay.

Mike Pesca (21:17)

I wanted to get to tell me if you don't want to talk about this at all, we don't have to talk in depth.

Michelle Tafoya (21:23)

Anything you want.

Mike Pesca (21:24)

All right, good. Were you surprised that so much attention was paid to an appearance on the Dan Le Batard show where he and mostly his producers tried to challenge you? And there was a lot of. There was a lot of heat, but I think not much light shed. You don't want to believe that there is a group that is oppressed and there isn't a group that's oppressors? Because I've seen your quotes on Critical Race Theory, and I'm not just taking you at face. At face value. That's not just fiscal conservatism. That's Being a conservative. Like, these are.

Michelle Tafoya (21:54)

Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is. You know, there's so much labeling going on here. I just got on the Zoom call with you guys, and already the labeling is ridiculous. I mean, Dan just started with, I'm woke. You said that about yourself and Michelle's far. You labeled me as far. Right.

Mike Pesca (22:11)

We surprised, knowing what you do about the media, that. That got as much attention as anything you've done with this project thus far.

Michelle Tafoya (22:17)

No, because was so. It was such a. I don't even know how to describe it. It was such a lame experience. It was. It was hideous. I went into. I was invited as. As people know, because I. I had the invite ready to show everybody that Dan would love to have you on his podcast to talk about your amazing career and what's next. And I had done. Pardon the interruption with Dan on, you know, PTI on espn many years back, and it was. We got along fine, and I had no reason, and this is my fault for not looking more closely at his podcast before I went on, but I trusted the booker, and I trusted what I knew about Dan, and that was bad on me. And I walked into a landmine, and it was a complete and utter ambush, and it was so uncomfortable and distasteful, and they considered not running it. And I understand now that Dan has said he kind of wishes he hadn't run it. And so, you know, I'm. I'm not really that surprised. It taught me a really good life lesson or two. So it's. It's. It was an awful thing to experience, to have your character attacked in such a way. But again, I learned something from it, and I am just building scar tissue left and right.

Mike Pesca (23:47)

Lebatar told Ethan Strauss on his House of Strauss podcast. She, meaning you, thought she was ambushed. I'm not an ambusher. I didn't intend to ambush her. It just went off the rails immediately because my introduction was awkward and she felt like she had been lied to. I have listened to that entire podcast, and I would say that it was an ambush. This phrasing of you thought you were ambushed and him not being an ambusher. Granted, it was his producer, Mike Ryan Ruiz, who asked most of the questions and took a pretty anodyne statement that you said about your children shouldn't be taught that there are inherently oppressors and inherently the oppressed in this society. And he immediately jumped to, oh, so you're anti crt, But I'm sorry, I would judge that to be an ambush. It's pretty much fits the definition of ambush.

Michelle Tafoya (24:37)

It pretty much did.

Mike Pesca (24:39)

Michelle Tafoya is a four time Sports Emmy award winner and her new podcast is Sideline Sanity with Michelle Tafoya. Thank you so much, Michelle.

Michelle Tafoya (24:47)

I appreciate you. Thank you.

Mike Pesca (24:52)

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Progressive Insurance Announcer (25:13)

Logan Fury did something smart. He saved hundreds on auto insurance switching to Progressive. With that money, he bought a mini treadmill. Is walking on it during video conference calls more distracting than he thought? Yes. And is that because he overestimated his. His foot eye coordination? Definitely. But it's Logan's savings and if he wants to burn calories and any chance at a promotion, we say good for you, Logan. Switch and see if you could save with Progressive and treat yourself. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

Mike Pesca (25:45)

And now the spiel. Donald Trump and his administration is brazen, wanton, irresponsible. I'm not, I'm just going to stop with all the adjectives. But mostly his lack of care, caution and humanity adds up to so what if it gets his enemies killed? However, lately his words and the words of Stephen Miller might in fact get his friends killed. Okay, let's put a asterisk on that. Donald Trump obviously doesn't have friends. He's extremely transactional, but I'm talking about people he ostensibly wants to help. So I have two very recent statements, one from Miller, one from Trump, that are more similar than you may have realized. And you probably heard of both statements to the Iran protesters. Trump truthed. If Iran violently kills peaceful protesters, which is their custom, it is good that he's sensitive to the local mores and customs. Anyway, the United States of America will come to their rescue. We are locked and loaded and ready to go. So this would mean militarily locked and loaded. Now, the problem with that is if the people of Iran were able to see it, which due to massive Internet outages is unlikely, and they didn't know the track record of Donald Trump, or they thought the track record of Donald Trump was just what the regime had said, that he's a gigantic liar, then they might think, oh, the regime we're protesting against, they're always wrong. They never tell the truth. Donald Trump is a guy who can be trusted. They that would add up to carnage and who knows? Maybe it did. We might never know the death toll of the protesters, but that truth may have, in truth, let hundreds, thousands of people to believe him to go out to protest more and to get killed. Similar thing reminiscent of a Stephen Miller comment here he was recently on, of course, Fox News. To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. And anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop you or tries to obstruct you is committing a felony. You have immunity to perform your duties. And no one, no city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no leftist agitator or domestic insurrectionist can prevent you from fulfilling your legal obligations and duties. No, they don't. They don't have full immunity. That is just wrong and irresponsible to say so. And it's an obvious danger. It's an obvious danger to civilians. But I'm here making the case that it is dangerous for the people they ostensibly want to help. It's dangerous for actual ICE agents. They maybe will feel they could act more violently. And so that's the part where it's bad for civilians, but if they do and if they commit crimes, it will be bad for them. I mean, it will be bad for them cosmically and psychologically and morally. But also, you know, there's no statute of limitations on murder, as you probably have heard in every film noir you've ever seen. But under the general statute of limitations for federal crimes, there's five years for federal offenses. Yes, of course, it's 18 USC 3282. There is also an opportunity for state agents to bring charges against a federal agent in a federal court. But without the federal executive branch having a say, it's federal judges and lawyers who might say that that would be appropriate. But what I'm saying is there a lot of exposure for the ICE agent in this scenario. The ICE agent who believes wrongly in the streets of Minneapolis, who believes that he or she is acting with immunity, they're wrong. Under a reasonable interpretation that perhaps the next attorney general or whatever version of Stephen Miller comes along, although it's very hard to find any other versions of Stephen Miller unless you dredge some of the deepest swamps in our land. So fascist, is it fascism? It's not good. I think it's more aptly described as the cacocy rule by the worst, least competent people. We're definitely dragging the country down. Donald Trump wanted this fight in L. A. He wanted this fight in Chicago. Didn't get it there. Chicago acted pretty well with Midway Blitz. L A was just kind of a couple square block concoction. But in Minnesota, this is the fight Trump wants, or what Trump thinks he wants. He has reacted to some of the images because he's sensitive to this and not an idiot. He has reacted to some of the images with the instinct, oh, this might be bad for us. In the administration, the protesters are standing up to ICE and no doubt they're violating here and there the letter of the law and probably getting in the way of ICE activity. Protesters are by definition a bit chaotic, and so you're not going to have every protest be a peaceful expression of First Amendment rights, as Mayor Fry and Governor Walsh always frame it. But it doesn't matter. They're mostly doing a constitutionally protected thing and Stephen Miller is advising them, incorrectly, that their adversaries, ice, have constitutional protections they don't have. Should the city survive and should the death toll remain low, maybe we will extract ourselves as we have in a couple of the other instances I just mentioned, and we will do so above the unbelievably backward and dangerous and intentionally misleading words of our officials. This is where we are. I hope we can step down. I don't have a lot of faith in this administration, whose every word, utterance indeed is an attempt to destroy that faith. Not just mine, but ours in the system and legitimacy thereof. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara, who I shall name as the producer of the Jest. Then there's Kathleen Sykes. Nope, not her real name, but close, close to her real name. She does the Gist list. And there is a guy named either Craig Jeff or Jeff Craig. I'm gonna leave it ambiguous. He runs everything that moves on the Gist's feed. And of course, Leah Yanni, if that is indeed her name. Here's a hint, it's not. Michelle Pesca is in fact the coo, but I'm never going to tell you what that stands for. Of Peach Fish Productions. And thanks for listening. New year, new vibe. You want the warmth of a drink, that smooth little kick. But you also want to wake up tomorrow feeling amazing. That's where RK comes in. RK is the world's first zero proof spirits brand. And they invented the warm molecule, giving you the burn of whiskey or tequila without a drop of alcohol. Start the year strong with 28 bold, zero proof spirits, zero calories, zero sugar, zero regrets. So you can celebrate big and still keep your resolutions on track. Start the year right. Join the Zero Proof Resolution at RKBeverages.

Progressive Insurance Announcer (32:57)

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