The Gist – “Mike Hayes on Purpose, Grit, and Mission”

Podcast: The Gist
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Mike Hayes, former Commander, SEAL Team 2, author of Mission Driven: The Path to a Life of Purpose
Date: September 5, 2025
Duration: Approx. 33 minutes

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca sits down with Mike Hayes, decorated former Navy SEAL commander, White House fellow, and author, to discuss his new book, Mission Driven: The Path to a Life of Purpose. Their conversation explores the foundations for living a meaningful life, the importance of self-discovery, the roles of grit and character, why work ethic and emotional intelligence often matter more than credentials, and how purpose is cultivated. Hayes shares actionable insights from elite leadership contexts and offers guidance not just for high-achievers, but for anyone striving to find and fulfill their purpose.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Distilling “Who You Are” vs. “What You Are”

[07:53 – 10:36]

• Self-definition comes first.

  • Hayes’s family tradition is to ask “Who do you want to be?” not “What do you want to be?” (08:27)
  • “When you think about who you are, it should be defined, really, in my view, around your core attributes...I don't have any answers for you. I just have the questions.” — Mike Hayes (08:27)

• Purposeful contribution:

  • His personal core: “I try to be a person who gives more than I take.” (09:36)
  • Principle of ‘team, teammate, self’ from SEALs: Put the team first to lift everyone up.

2. Navigating Selfishness and Altruism at Elite Levels

[10:36 – 12:30]

• The White House and SEAL Teams:
  • Both environments have people focused on the team, and some focused on self-promotion.
  • “In the long run, the world is a lot less imperfect and we figure people out...it just never works out in the long run for these people.” — Mike Hayes (11:30)

3. The 1% Better Mindset: Growth Through Challenge

[12:30 – 14:11]

• Progress is not binary:
  • Learning from mistakes equates to success.
  • “If you fail and you learn, you just succeeded.” — Mike Hayes (12:47)
  • Dedication to continual improvement creates a richer life.

4. The Problem with Credentialism and Identifying Talent

[14:11 – 18:51]

• Excellence is not an Ivy-League monopoly:

  • Elite organizations like SEALs actively recruit from diverse backgrounds, not only prestigious schools.
  • “EQ and work ethic take you way, way farther than any sort of an additional 10 points on anyone's IQ.” — Mike Hayes (16:39)

• Signaling and success:

  • SEAL selection is more about identifying talent than creating it; attributes must preexist.
  • How can broader society identify talent beyond existing proxies?

5. Work Ethic, Visualization, and The Price of Success

[18:51 – 20:45]

• Hayes’s own path as example:

  • Work ethic and willingness to “pay any price” for success are differentiators. (18:51)
  • “If you can visualize something, then you can achieve it. It's only a question of what price are you willing to pay to go achieve your goals.” — Mike Hayes (18:51)

• Coaching parallels:

  • Shares experience advising UConn basketball coach Dan Hurley; the principles of grit, visualization, and process apply from battlefield to basketball court.

6. Decision-Making at High Stakes & The Value of Outside Perspectives

[20:20 – 24:11]

• Helping others crystallize values:
  • Hayes frames transitions (e.g., Hurley’s tempting offer from the LA Lakers) as questions of impact, recognition, organizational fit—not just money or status.
  • Gut feelings matter, but articulating why helps with clarity.

7. Grit: Nature, Nurture, and Cultivation

[24:25 – 29:05]

• Can grit be taught?

  • “I think it's nature and nurture...The grit factor comes from knowing that you are in a really hard situation, and you've been in a lot of hard situations before in your life, and you're drawing on that wisdom...to shape what you think you should be doing in that moment.” — Mike Hayes (25:33)

• Expanding one’s “grit cone”:

  • SEAL training stretches people beyond limits, allows sustainable growth.
  • “I've been trained, I've trained myself to be calm, to think about the outcome...Yes, I've got better at that every year of my life.” — Mike Hayes (27:25)

8. The Limits of Character, Willpower, and the Role of Biology

[29:05 – 31:10]

• Biology and psychological limits:
  • Discussion of GLP-1 drugs and implications that not every trait (like willpower) can be cultivated for everyone.
  • “There is an element of that we are capped at certain things...But the beauty of life is, do we train and work to land on that highest possible part of that cone, but more importantly also in the areas that give us energy and help us be better.” — Mike Hayes (30:32)

9. “Never Enough” vs. “Mission Driven”: Motivations and Impact

[31:16 – 34:24]

• Motivation for writing:

  • Inspired by near-death moments, Hayes felt compelled to share lessons for the benefit of others.
  • “I never planned on writing a book. I never planned on writing a second book, but it just...was just the way to have impact on people that I've never met.” — Mike Hayes (32:43)

• Charity and service:

  • Profits from both books go to charity: “We paid off 12 [Gold Star] women's mortgages...I carry a ton of weight from all of this. And so I'm here to do as much as I can to honor and recognize them and to help those families that have paid that ultimate sacrifice.” — Mike Hayes (34:26)

10. Excellence vs. Superiority, and the Dangers of Ego

[35:06 – 37:48]

• Comparison:

  • Citing a David Brooks column, Pesca asks about striving for superiority.
  • Hayes decouples “excellence” from competition: “I was just trying to always beat myself...the trait that you're describing of the like I need to look better than somebody else is...the fastest path to toxicity and failure.” — Mike Hayes (36:20)

• True confidence:

  • “When you really truly have confidence, it doesn't matter how you look to anyone else...if that's the way everybody in a team works, then that makes the team success elite.” — Mike Hayes (36:20)

11. Lessons from Real-World Ambush: SEAL Survival

[37:48 – 39:34]

• Hayes’s near-death experience:
  • Recounts being held at gunpoint in Peru.
  • Survival came from thinking through the situation with SEAL-trained logic, not from formal SERE school.
  • “What I did was I thought to myself, if I were them, what would make them need to kill someone like me?” — Mike Hayes (38:42)

Memorable Quotes

• "When you say, ‘Who is Mike Hayes?’ I think about being somebody who contributes more than I take." — Mike Hayes [09:36]
• "If you fail and you learn, you just succeeded, you know." — Mike Hayes [12:47]
• "EQ and work ethic take you way, way farther than any sort of an additional 10 points on anyone's IQ." — Mike Hayes [16:39]
• "If you can visualize something, then you can achieve it. It's only a question of what price are you willing to pay..." — Mike Hayes [18:51]
• "I've been trained, I've trained myself to be calm, to think about the outcome and to think about what do we want out of this situation..." — Mike Hayes [27:25]
• "There is an element that we are capped at certain things... but the beauty of life is, do we train and work to land on that highest possible part of that cone... " — Mike Hayes [30:32]
• "When you really truly have confidence, it doesn't matter how you look to anyone else." — Mike Hayes [36:20]

Suggested Listening Timestamps

| Topic | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Figuring out "who you are" | 07:53 | | Team success vs. personal ambition | 10:36 | | The 1% better rule and learning from failure | 12:30 | | Greatness beyond credentials | 14:11 | | Grit: cultivating through hard experiences | 24:25 | | Nature/nurture, willpower, and biological limits | 29:05 | | Motivations behind the books & charity | 31:16 | | Excellence vs. superiority | 35:06 | | Near-death experience and real-world SEAL logic | 37:48 |

Final Thoughts

This conversation blends stories from elite military service, leadership, and personal philosophy to offer a nuanced take on living with purpose. Hayes champions self-awareness, humility, and ever-improving work ethic, while challenging assumptions about success, credentials, and ego. The episode is a trove of insights for anyone striving not just to achieve, but to define achievement on their own terms.