Mike Pesca on Fake the Nation

Summary

The Gist Podcast: Mike Pesca on Fake the Nation

Date: May 16, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca (of The Gist), Guest on Fake the Nation
Fake the Nation Host: Negin Farsad
Other Guest: Katie Hannigan

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Episode Overview

This crossover episode features Mike Pesca, host of The Gist, as a guest on Negin Farsad’s popular panel show, Fake the Nation. The trio (Pesca, Farsad, and comedian Katie Hannigan) embark on a fast-paced, irreverent discussion of current cultural and political phenomena. Key topics include the “refresher” beverage craze sweeping America, the rise of matcha, the ongoing Iran war, and the political maneuverings around it. The episode combines sharp wit, skepticism, and social commentary with lively panel banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The American Refresher Craze

Timestamps: 08:00–16:58

Context:
Panelists dissect the sudden popularity of “refreshers”—a vague, fruity, and colorful drink category now offered at major fast food and coffee chains. They debate their purpose, health claims, and cultural symbolism.

Highlights:

• Katie’s Perspective:

  • Brand-loyal to iced coffee, she distrusts the refresher trend:

    "I love iced coffee. I must keep my anxiety up. I must keep it high. I don't want to feel refreshed. I want to feel terrified. And that's just me." (08:44 – Katie Hannigan)

• Mike’s Take:

  • Sees the "refresher" label as misleading, questions supposed health benefits:

    “I think the promise of refresher, the false promise, is that we're refreshed to begin with, and so there is no refreshing.” (08:57 – Mike Pesca)

  • Critiques the marketing language as manipulative:

    "The permission structure is embedded in the word indulgence... they always say it like this, indulge, because they know that we're all getting too many calories.” (11:29 – Mike Pesca)

• Negin’s Analysis:

  • Notes dual marketing as “affordable indulgence” and healthful due to fruit content:

    “If something is sweet and fun and colorful, you know, that's Kool-Aid. That’s Kool-Aid.” (09:42 – Negin Farsad)

  • Connects the trend to broader “treat yourself” culture:

    “It makes—it gives you a little pep in your step, literally, because of the caffeine, but also figuratively, because you’re like, I just got a little something… It’s the treat yourself culture.” (11:02 – Negin Farsad)

• Societal Factors & Soda’s Decline:

  • Negin questions whether refreshers signal “death knell” of soda as the default indulgence:

    “Is soda over forever? Like, where is it now?” (13:06 – Negin Farsad)

  • Mike provides context:

    “If you look at market share, soda is doing poorly... they invented this whole refresher thing. Yeah, I think that soda... they have some of the La Croix and flavored seltzer thing going on. But refresher is the next option.” (13:50 – Mike Pesca)

Memorable Moment:

• Mocking the trajectory of beverage innovation:

  “After refreshers, we cycle back fully to like just motor oil.” (15:17 – Negin Farsad)
  “We’re like the tin man prospector.” (15:23 – Mike Pesca)

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2. Rise of Matcha and Performative Beverage Culture

Timestamps: 15:28–16:58

Context:
The panel quickly moves to the explosive popularity of matcha drinks, particularly in New York, and ties it to trends in performative identity.

Highlights:

• Negin’s Observations:

  • Matcha everywhere, in “every color now.”
  • Wonders if this is a local (NYC) or national trend.

• Mike’s Commentary:

  • Links matcha’s rise to performative masculinity:

    “It's tied into the whole performative male culture.” (15:57 – Mike Pesca)
    “Just to show that you’re the right kind of male. There was this performative male trend and you had a tote bag and maybe longish hair. And a matcha was essential to that.” (16:04–16:11 – Mike Pesca)

• Katie on Aesthetics:

  • Praises matcha’s “beautiful color” and ritualized consumption:

    “And it’s got a beautiful color where you can. I do. I feel performative drinking.” (16:28 – Katie Hannigan)

• Negin on Effects:

  • Notes matcha’s slower caffeine release:

    “I think the thing with Matcha is that the caffeine is slow. And it wears off nicely.” (16:14 – Negin Farsad)

  • Mike deadpans:

    “So it's like the oxycodone of caffeine.” (16:23 – Mike Pesca)

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3. The Iran War: Ceasefire, Trauma, and Political Theater

Timestamps: 17:59–27:43

Context:
Panel dives into the U.S.-Iran ceasefire’s fragility, recent mass executions by Iran’s regime, Trump’s strategy (or lack thereof), and the impossibility of an American “win.”

Highlights:

• Negin’s Framing:

  • Describes the public trauma and emotional toll, referencing her family in Iran and the difficulty of getting real information out:

    “I don’t know. I say I’m fine with losing. Iran—more like, ‘I lost and I’m fine with it.’” (18:57 – Katie Hannigan)
    “All I hear about the Iran war is just trauma from the people over there.” (18:57 – Katie Hannigan)
    “From my family in Iran... they don’t say what’s going on because they’re afraid that their phone line, that they’re being monitored.” (23:36 – Negin Farsad)

• Mike on Political Realities:

  • Explains America’s “choice not to win” and why escalation won’t work:

    “To win would, I think, necessitate ground troops... the only way to get your goals is to go in with ground troops. And America does not want that. And Trump, for all his serpentine cunning, understands that we’re upset with gas prices. We don’t want to commit to the troops.” (19:35–21:09 – Mike Pesca)

  • On regime brutality and U.S. caution:

    “The people who run Iran... I’m sure they’d throw 75 million of them in front of bombs to save themselves... Many of our enemies are willing to endure everything, and we're somewhat willing to endure nothing. And maybe that's good... but that is the dynamic.” (25:29 – Mike Pesca)

• On Trump’s Leadership:

  • Panelists agree Trump is unwilling and unable to admit strategic error:

    “Anything that requires, say like a mea culpa or like, ‘oh, this isn’t going well,’ ...he can’t do it. Absolutely incapable.” (21:26 – Negin Farsad)

  • Mike sketches the alternate reality of a responsible leader:

    “But let's imagine a Trump who had credibility would have said something like, look, the initial strikes didn’t go exactly as perfectly as we wanted... None of those sentences at all resemble something that would come out of Donald Trump's mouth.” (21:46 – Mike Pesca)

• On U.S. War Limitations:

  • Mike:

    “We're never going to militarily achieve anything other than the stuff that's really easy. And maybe you could say that's good, too. Right. We'll try to work out diplomatic solutions, imperfect though they may be.” (26:17 – Mike Pesca)

Memorable Quotes:

• “That’s a better banner on your aircraft carrier than ‘Mission Accomplished.’” (19:12 – Mike Pesca)
• “Once Epstein's on a UFO, you know they've reached distraction.” (27:43 – Mike Pesca)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Refresher Beverages:

  • Katie: “I don’t want to feel refreshed. I want to feel terrified.” (08:44)
  • Mike: “This is an inoculation against saving money.” (10:09)

• On Performative Drinking:

  • Mike: “Just to show that you’re the right kind of male. There was this performative male trend and you had a tote bag and maybe longish hair. And a matcha was essential to that.” (16:04–16:11)

• On Political Spin:

  • Mike: “That’s a better banner on your aircraft carrier than ‘Mission Accomplished.’” (19:12)
  • Negin: “Anything that requires... a mea culpa... he can’t do it. Absolutely incapable.” (21:26)

• On U.S. War Policy:

  • Mike: “Many of our enemies are willing to endure everything, and we're somewhat willing to endure nothing. And maybe that's good... but that is the dynamic.” (25:29)

• On Distraction Politics:

  • Mike: “Once Epstein's on a UFO, you know they've reached distraction.” (27:43)

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Flow & Tone

The episode displays Peach Fish Productions’ hallmark responsibly provocative, witty, and cutting commentary. The panel blends cultural critique, dark humor, political skepticism, and personal stories, notable for Negin Farsad’s wry hosting and Mike Pesca’s analytical rigor. Banter is playful but never trivializes weighty issues, exemplifying the “beyond the rigidity and dogma” style that The Gist promises.

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Episode Timeline

• 01:03 – Mike Pesca introduces the episode, explains the context
• 04:28 – Fake the Nation starts: panel and show setup
• 08:00–16:58 – Beverage/matcha/refreshers discourse
• 17:59–27:43 – U.S.-Iran war, regime violence, Trump’s tactics, war policy
• 27:43–end – Wrap-up, guest producer credits, outro

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This summary encapsulates the episode’s depth, humor, and keen insights into American culture and politics, offering value to listeners both familiar and fresh to the discussion.

Transcript

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[Mike Pesca]

Hi, it's Saturday. It's the Saturday show. It's also Mike and what I'm going to do is bring you a show. I was on. I was a guest. This sometimes works like this host of this show. The gist also how to and a couple of sub shows. Not gonna plug them all. I go on other shows and one of those shows from time to time is the show Fake the Nation. I mean Fake the Nation is always a show. It's hosted by Nagin Farsad.

[Katie Hannigan]

But.

[Mike Pesca]

But from time to time one of their guests is Mike Pesca, host of this show. I hope this is not getting too confusing. I host this show. I go as a guest on other shows. Nagin Farsad is host of another show. Now I'm going to blow your mind. There was another guest of that show. Her name was Katie. Still is Katie Hannigan. Does she host a show? I don't know. I don't have enough compute to figure that out. The data center has not yet been built. So to reorient Pesca, Mike guest Fake the Nation Farsad Nagin Host s of Fake the Nation Also weirdly, both of us have guest hosted. Wait, wait, don't tell me she more recently than me, you know, because they'll have her still. And now I'm going to play you a couple of segments from the show Fake the Nation. I hope you're unbelievably confused unless you've been following along with a chart.

[Katie Hannigan]

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[Negin Farsad]

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[Commercial Announcer]

approval on May 29. From focused features in the producers of Darkest Hour comes the untold true Story of D Day. Facing the wrath of nature and with the largest seaborne invasion in history at stake, the fate of the war rests on the shoulders of two extraordinary men. One impossible decision. Featuring powerful performances from Andrew Scott, Brendan Fraser, Kerry Condon and Damian Lewis, the Untold True Story of D Day Only in theaters May 20th. Rated PG13 may be inappropriate for children under 13. Experience it until cinema. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft.

[Negin Farsad]

I thought it was safe.

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[Mike Pesca]

Pour your money back.

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[Negin Farsad]

Hello, hello, this is make the Nation where we talk about news, we talk about culture, and where we dive straight into the American beverage craze. 2026. That's right, just in time for the World Cup. Every major fast food chain is trying to sell you a refresher. We'll talk about what all that means and the Iran war. It can't stop. It won't stop. Plus the Virginia Supreme Court poops all over the country and the Secretary of Transportation goes on a road trip where presumably poops all over the country. And finally, the physical changes to DC and the Big question. How annoyed should we be? Folks, we're coming to you live to tape here from PNT Knitwear, the podcast studio on the Lower east side. What a lovely home for us. I have an incredible panel for you today. Oh my gosh. You heard them both on this show before. First up, we have comedian and. Ooh, she's taping a special special at the Bell House on June. No, I'm sorry. May 29th. On May 29th at 9:30. This woman is so funny. You should immediately be getting tickets. It is Katie Hannigan.

[Mike Pesca]

Hey, Katie.

[Negin Farsad]

Hello.

[Katie Hannigan]

Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

[Negin Farsad]

Oh my God. She's also doing like sketches with Lady Journey. So check those out. Are they available on YouTube?

[Katie Hannigan]

They're on Instagram, YouTube, everywhere. We just did one for Mother's Day where I played Cavicular's mom. Yes, it was delightful. So check it out.

[Negin Farsad]

Oh my God. I watched the documentary finally on. Wait, right, Was he in the documentary?

[Katie Hannigan]

Yes, the manosphere.

[Negin Farsad]

And did his mom appear in the documentary?

[Katie Hannigan]

She didn't, but she has appeared on live streams. Of course. I went on a deep dive.

[Negin Farsad]

Okay, got you. There was a separate mom that appeared in that documentary that I'm thinking of who you should also do a satirical send up.

[Katie Hannigan]

She was wonderful. Yeah, she was yelling. A British yelling.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, the Louis Theroux documentary.

[Negin Farsad]

Louis Theroux documentary.

[Mike Pesca]

That was not Ben Vicular. Someone else.

[Katie Hannigan]

Yes, it was a different body part.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Negin Farsad]

All right. Our other panelist for today is. Oh my God. And you've heard him on the show very many times. He's just so great at talking and hosting and thinking and analyzing and being fun and funny. He is the host of the Gist podcast, which has just been like one of the most long time podcasts. I don't even know how many years.

[Mike Pesca]

12 years.

[Negin Farsad]

Jesus.

[Mike Pesca]

3,000 episodes.

[Negin Farsad]

Gosh darn. So host of the Gist, but also more recently host of the how to podcast. It is Mike Pesca.

[Mike Pesca]

Thank you for inviting me to the bookstore. Named after a clothing company with a secret podcast studio in it. Yes, the Russian nesting doll of media. Thank you. They do it all. It's a front.

[Katie Hannigan]

It is.

[Negin Farsad]

It's a front for what? The literary mafia, basically. Before we get into the show, I just want to remind listeners they can go to patreon.com negeenfarsad to support the show. You get bonus bonuses of the show for as little as $4 a month. For as little as $1 a month. You get nothing. And and maybe some of you like that. Maybe you like to be, you know, like a submissive to the Dom. And the Dom is $1 a month,

[Mike Pesca]

but up to 3.99amonth, you get nothing.

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah. Yeah. You really want to push this?

[Mike Pesca]

Submissive?

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's. That's that. I. I put that option for you. Whatever floats your boat. Let us folks get into it with topic number one. We are swimming in new drinks, but they're not called drinks anymore, nor are they called beverages. No, no, no, no. For some reason, they're called refreshers. It's a vague category of drink that in large part refers to fruity drinks that are also colorful. You can find lines of refreshers at Starbucks, McDonald's, Dunkin, all the places that want your money and your arteries. Guys, have you. Were you aware of the ref phenomenon? Were you using the word refresher before today?

[Katie Hannigan]

I will say I noticed it at Starbucks about a year ago last summer. I said, something is different. People are walking out of here with Gatorade, it looks like. But I will tell you, I'm against it.

[Negin Farsad]

You're against it? Why are you against it?

[Katie Hannigan]

I love iced coffee. I must have my anxiety. I must keep it up. I must keep it high. I don't want to feel refreshed. I want to feel terrified. And that's just me.

[Mike Pesca]

I think the promise of refresher, the false promise, is that we're refreshed to begin with, and so there is no refreshing.

[Katie Hannigan]

We've never been fresh.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. I think we need a refresher course on what these refreshers are actually doing. Are they lower calories than, say, a pure fruit juice or yield Hawaiian punch?

[Negin Farsad]

Oh, I mean, apparently the range of caloric intake is wide. I mean, the interesting thing is they're marketed as. As an affordable indulgence. Okay.

[Mike Pesca]

My bank account will be the judge of that. How do you know?

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah. And then for. So in one sense, they're being marketed as an affordable indulgence, and as another sense, they're being marketed as something that has, like, a health halo.

[Mike Pesca]

This is what I think because of

[Negin Farsad]

the fruit content, but I think. But it's right that, like, if something is sweet and fun and colorful, you know, that's Kool Aid. That's Kool Aid.

[Mike Pesca]

But you know what's not particularly good for you is fruit juice just full of sugar and, like, there's a couple ounces of fiber in there. I think what's going on is they're meeting the Maha moment, and if they include the syllable fresh in there, maybe you will convince everyone that it's not a processed food.

[Katie Hannigan]

This is a vaccine.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, pretty much. This is. It's an inoculation against saving money.

[Negin Farsad]

I think on it's iced measles.

[Katie Hannigan]

I do think it is a refresher

[Mike Pesca]

outbreak in West Texas.

[Katie Hannigan]

It's very sad. It's very refreshing.

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah.

[Katie Hannigan]

I do think you can caffeine to the refreshers.

[Negin Farsad]

Oh, yeah. That's like a newer option that's going on, especially at Starbucks. Yeah.

[Katie Hannigan]

But I, again, am against it. I don't support it. I think if you want caffeine, you should get a bitter bean juice.

[Negin Farsad]

But I also feel like there is something. When they said affordable indulgence, I felt very. I felt like someone saw too close to what happens in my head, which is like, you know, going out to a fancy dinner. I shouldn't do that tonight. Instead, let me have my fourth iced latte.

[Katie Hannigan]

Yes.

[Negin Farsad]

You know what I mean? And that's like an affordable. And I. And it feels. And it makes. It gives you a little pep in your step, literally, because of the caffeine, but also figuratively, because you're like, I just got a little something. It's for me. Yes. It's the treat yourself.

[Katie Hannigan]

The treat yourself culture.

[Negin Farsad]

You sort of like, reenact, like buying a house.

[Katie Hannigan]

This is my home now.

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah. You do like a. Like a Sound of Music kind of like in the. You know, on a hilltop, like, but here with your iced coffee. You know what I mean?

[Mike Pesca]

Just keep spinning because of the caffeine. I think that it's. The permission structure is embedded in the word indulgence. There are all these commercials where they show a chocolate cake, and of course, it's processed food. And they always say. And they say it like this, indulge. Because they know that we're all getting too many calories. We have a problem as a problem.

[Katie Hannigan]

We are indulging.

[Mike Pesca]

This is why you have to indulge as opposed to just scarf up calorie after calorie.

[Negin Farsad]

Well, also, the weird thing is this was not in any of the writing that I have read about this issue, if we want to call it an issue.

[Mike Pesca]

You're taking on the big refresh.

[Negin Farsad]

I'm taking on big refresher issues. Oriented. But I will say one thing that came to mind was like, I wonder if this is also in response to the Ozempic craze, because maybe you don't want to eat very much, but maybe you can drink. I mean, I have literally no Idea.

[Katie Hannigan]

It dehydrates you a bit.

[Negin Farsad]

So maybe it dehydrates. Maybe you need to drink more. So then maybe it's also a response to that. Even though, like, I didn't see any more talk about that.

[Mike Pesca]

But is there any talk of electrolytes within the refresher? Because that's a. Another thing that they invented, which used to just be called salt, I think. So that's another thing.

[Katie Hannigan]

Bronto has electrolytes.

[Negin Farsad]

Yes. Now here's my. Like, I want to end on this and I, I really wonder what you guys think of this. Does this signal. And maybe we have already experienced the death knell of soda is soda. Because for me as a kid, soda was the indulgence, obviously. It was like, can I convince my parents to let me have a soda? You know, and now. So I thought as an adult, like, soda would just kind of be a part of my life, like once a week as a fun thing. Right. It's absolutely not. I can't tell you the last time I had soda. I mean, it must have been literally years ago. I mean, soda's been over for me for a really long time. Is it over forever? Like, where is it now?

[Katie Hannigan]

I love a soda. I love a Diet Coke. That's my. Such a. That's my indulgence. A Diet Coke. I also love a ginger ale. And I think that for me, I just don't. I'm not into fruity flavors. That's probably it. But Diet Coke.

[Negin Farsad]

But do you feel, do you. Okay, right. And I, and I, and I know the legion of Diet Coke ladies. Yes, they are obsessed, sure. But do you feel like writ large, sodas still have the same place they

[Mike Pesca]

used to have is soda over on the refresher issue? It is. If you look at market share, soda is doing poorly. And in fact, if you look at. I want to get the country right. I think India, there was a soda shortage, Diet Coke shortage. Because of aluminum cans, actually. And that did cause a fairly big panic. So, yes, soda's over. They got to find a way to get some sweet juice into you, maybe with electrolytes, like an idiocracy. Maybe not. And so they invented this whole refresher thing. Yeah, I think that soda, which sometimes is called pop, depending on which part of the country you're from, it just. I do remember, I'm a little older than you, I think I do remember when they came out with the plastic bottles, the 2 liter bottles of soda. And this was revolutionary. Cause it used to actually be glass. I don't Remember the glass, but I remember the soda. Two liter bottles. But what are the innovations left with soda? Right. You can't change the bottle anymore. The cans and the 20 ounce, that used to be a. The personal bottle used to be maybe 16 ounces. Then it went up to 20. Now people aren't wanting more. I think they've maxed out on soda. They have some of the La Croix and flavored seltzer thing going on. But refresher is the next. The next option they're going to. And they're available to them. They're going to cycle through these options. After refresher, it's going to be, you

[Katie Hannigan]

know, after RFK cracks down on the size of the refresher.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, after refresher is a size.

[Katie Hannigan]

You can't have a cooler of refresher.

[Negin Farsad]

After refreshers, we cycle back fully to like just motor oil.

[Katie Hannigan]

You know what I mean?

[Mike Pesca]

We're like the tin man Prospector.

[Katie Hannigan]

Yes.

[Negin Farsad]

Folks, let me know, what are your thoughts? Are you drinking refreshers? By the way, can I just say one thing about myself, which is I have not tried one of these things. Not one. I haven't tried one. I also want to say, and this might be a New York City thing, but like people out there, let me know if it isn't. The other thing that is exploding, which was also not a part of the refresher reading, but the other thing that feels like it's exploding in New York City is matcha. Like in every. Every color now. Right.

[Katie Hannigan]

Of course you love them.

[Negin Farsad]

A matcha. Of course you do.

[Mike Pesca]

It's tied into the whole performative male culture.

[Negin Farsad]

Oh, because matcha is something about brain health or whatever.

[Mike Pesca]

Just to show that you're the right kind of male. There was this performative male trend and

[Negin Farsad]

you had a tote bag and maybe longish hair.

[Mike Pesca]

And a matcha was essential to that.

[Negin Farsad]

No, no, that's right. In fact, I don't think it has anything to do with brain health. I think the thing with Matcha is that the caffeine is slow.

[Katie Hannigan]

Yes.

[Negin Farsad]

And it wears off. It. It wears off nicely.

[Mike Pesca]

So it's like the oxycodone of caffeine.

[Negin Farsad]

Yes, no, exactly. Less addictive.

[Katie Hannigan]

And it's got a beautiful color where you can. I do I feel performative drinking.

[Negin Farsad]

Excuse me, can I just get my ice matcha? Yes. Yeah. So there I have noticed the magic raise. I would like to know if it's happening in the rest of the country. I've not noticed it in other of the cities that I travel to as a comedienne. So folks, let me know where are you on refreshers. Let's take a quick break so we can hear from our sponsors and then we'll be back with politics in a second.

[Mike Pesca]

Another segment of Fake the Nation with Mike, Katie and Negin.

[Commercial Announcer]

On May 29. From focused features and the producers of Darkest Hour comes pressure. The untold true story of D Day. Facing the wrath of nature and with the largest seaborne invasion in history at stake, the fate of the war rests on the shoulders of two extraordinary men. One impossible decision. Featuring powerful performances from Andrew Scott, Brendan Fraser, Kerry Condon and Damian Lewis, The Untold True Story of D Day Only in theaters May 29. Rated PG13. May be inappropriate for children under 13. Experience it in Dolby Cinema.

[Love's Rewards Advertiser]

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[Negin Farsad]

And we are back and we're ready for topic number two, politics. You guys, I'm so sorry, but let's get into it. The ceasefire in Iran might not hold as Trump is threatening to resume attacks. Iran is a country that executed between 15 and 20,000 of its own people right before all of this. So they don't give a fuck. Trump is acting like he has it under control. But add stuff in a press conference recently, like, quote, we're either going to make a deal or they're going to be decimated. I don't know. At this moment, does it appear like we've lost the war? I don't even really understand what I'm asking. Just tell me your feelings.

[Katie Hannigan]

I. Well, I will say I think losing is fine with me. Let's just stop because it doesn't feel like it's getting better. Nothing is getting better. All I hear about the Iran war is just trauma from the people over there.

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah.

[Katie Hannigan]

And I just. I don't know. I say I'm fine with losing. I ran more like I lost and I'm fine with it.

[Negin Farsad]

Let's move on. I love this. I'm fine with losing.

[Mike Pesca]

That's a better banner on your aircraft carrier than mission accomplished.

[Negin Farsad]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

It's more honest. Wow. We really give him credit for that. So, first of all, I heard, how do you even put a number on this? But I heard it was upwards of 30,000 that the regime gunned down in

[Negin Farsad]

the streets yeah, exactly. We can't put a number on it because of the information blackout and because it's so difficult to actually get real numbers out of that fucking country. So that's why I gave such a crazy range.

[Mike Pesca]

But when you talk about all you're hearing about the trauma from that region, there's preexisting trauma, there's the trauma inflicted by the regime, there's the trauma trying to undo the regime. So have we lost? We have definitely chosen not to win. And I think that's pretty wise because to win would, I think, necessitate ground troops. There was a feeling that maybe we could have bombed them or the. Not just the Ayatollah and mini Ayatollah, Mini, maybe now legless Ayatollah to speak to your. We can't even get information out of the region. So, you know, it kind of worked with Maduro. It kind of worked in places where the regime wasn't as entrenched. So I guess Trump, never thinking of second or third order effects or even the third day strategy, thought, let's give it a try. But the problem is when it doesn't work now, you're committed to what next. And what next is to dislodge these people. You're not going to have an uprising. See the effectiveness of 12 to 15 to 30,000 people dead. The only way to go in. And air wars don't usually or almost never work on their own. The only way to get your goals is to go in with ground troops. And America does not want that. And Trump, Trump, for all his serpentine cunning, understands that we're upset with gas prices. We don't want to commit to the troops. So he can, no, I'll blockade you, you blockade me. He can dither about here. But he got himself in a bad situation because he didn't think of any sort of exit strategy after the original bombings and the killing of the bad guys didn't work.

[Katie Hannigan]

Yeah, this is the problem with, I guess, being obsessed with looking like you're winning, where he needs to spin it somehow that he's done a great thing and then he'll be able to move on.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Katie Hannigan]

Instead of coming out and saying, okay, there was a bad mess up.

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah. I mean, anything that requires, say like a mea culpa or like, oh, this isn't going well, or like, it's just

[Mike Pesca]

he can't do it.

[Negin Farsad]

Absolutely incapable. And that's kind of like me the moment. I mean, and it's funny cause I always just think, what could he say right now, like, how could he get it? Oopsie. Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Like, okay, I was thinking about this too. And leaders are loath to do that, except when you have to. And Lincoln did a thing like this in the Civil War, and, you know, it went out on newspapers two weeks, two months later. But they knew that the union side was losing battles and he shifted generals and he knew he had to. So what Trump would have had to say, and it wouldn't have worked because he has no credibility. But let's imagine a Trump who had credibility would have said something like, look, this, the initial strikes didn't go exactly as perfectly as we wanted. But this is so important, and I've laid so much groundwork to tell you how important this is, that here's what we have to do, and it's gonna take four more months and I want you to be with me. None of those sentences at all resemble something that would come out of Donald Trump's mouth. And also, he didn't at all make the case that it was important to rid Iran of nuclear weapons. Most people think of something like that. They always say they're two weeks away. Well, one day they will be two weeks away. Right. And one week they. One day they will be, you know, on the verge of having these weapons. And I don't know how you're gonna dislodge them without some sacrifice. But he doesn't do anything to ask the American people to make sacrifices. And so they don't make sacrifices.

[Katie Hannigan]

Yeah. If it was less of a clusterfuck, if you felt like, okay, there's a plan, there's a reason. Yeah.

[Negin Farsad]

And then I also think it's really hard to understand what level of pain the Iranian side is willing to endure, which I would imagine is just like a shit ton, which is why I bring up the executions. Right. They're willing to endure a lot. And also it's hard, but also it's hard understand what level, what, what's the one bomb that'll get them across the line, that'll get them to stop and you know, it. It. And thanks so much to listeners who reach out and say that they like to hear about my family in Iran and get those updates because it's like, humanizes the entire thing for them. And I'll say from my family in Iran that they don't say what's going on because they're afraid that their phone line, that they're being monitored.

[Mike Pesca]

Do they have any way to freely.

[Negin Farsad]

And then apparently Skylink has become easy to, I don't know Again, I don't know, but apparently they figured out a way to, like, monitor Skylink in a way that. That is harder for them to monitor. Like, groundline international calling card calls, or

[Mike Pesca]

at least, like, I don't even know if that's true, but let's say they convince the populace that it's true, then that exactly.

[Negin Farsad]

It doesn't matter. Right, Exactly. So. So the. There's all these rumors of what can be monitored, what can't be monitored, what's going on with the monitoring. They don't have the Internet. And so when we call to be like, what's. Or we can't call. When they call, they get through. They say. We say, are you okay? Yes. You know, do you have stuff to eat? You were fine. Are schools open? We're fine. Like, literally. So then. So then it creates this other world of not understanding at all, like, what's happening on the ground.

[Mike Pesca]

And since part of the strategy was to foment an uprising, if that's the dynamic that tells you that this was never going to happen. When the war started, I. I was pretty suspicious of the tactics and the strategy, but I said, I don't know what they know. Maybe they've been. Maybe the CIA has been working with people inside, but it turns out they knew nothing. They just knew Trump tweet or Trump Truth.

[Katie Hannigan]

Like, ostensibly about that, but really it was about Trump making himself a legacy.

[Mike Pesca]

He would have liked for it to happen. Like, so much wishful thinking. But, Nagin, when you. Did you pick up any change from the beginning, is there any way for them to have expressed some sort of hopefulness in a glint in their eye or a tone of their voice, and now they're resigned?

[Negin Farsad]

No.

[Mike Pesca]

No. Yeah.

[Negin Farsad]

No.

[Mike Pesca]

And to your question, how much is Iran willing to endure? I mean, the people who run Iran on behalf of the populace, everything they throw of the 90 million people, I'm sure they'd throw 75 million of them in front of bombs to save themselves. And, you know, this is another aspect of US Foreign policy and war policy. Many of our enemies are willing to endure everything, and we're somewhat willing to endure nothing. And maybe that's good. Like, you want to live in the country where we're extremely reluctant to lose our servicemen and service women to war, but that is the dynamic. And so we're never going to militarily achieve anything other than the stuff that's really easy. And maybe you could say that's good, too. Right. We'll try to work out diplomatic solutions, imperfect though they may Be

[Negin Farsad]

okay. Well, no, we solved it.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Katie Hannigan]

All right.

[Negin Farsad]

Oh, the one other thing I wanted to point out was that I think it was a press conference on Tuesday or something. Trump was asked, are you concerned about the financial woes of Americans? Is that motivating any of your decision making or deal making within Iran? And he said, quote Nadia, even a little bit at one time.

[Mike Pesca]

He's truthful.

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah, yeah. He didn't give, he doesn't get. He doesn't care. Like he doesn't care about anyone that's experiencing high gas prices. He doesn't care. Like, it's just that he doesn't care. And, and I think, and it's funny because you look at a guy, it's like, in, in life, have you ever had a crazy decision you had to make but then you start getting obsessed with like cleaning the refrigerator? Yes. Yeah, of course.

[Katie Hannigan]

Every day.

[Negin Farsad]

I mean, the refrigerator is sparkling. Oh, exactly. So like I feel like all he's doing deal with this war, but instead is like, I'm focused on the ballroom.

[Mike Pesca]

And also here's some UFO stuff.

[Negin Farsad]

Yeah, exactly. And here's some UFOs, which I didn't even look at because it was, looked like such a bald head, but it was blurry.

[Katie Hannigan]

Like they have the information. They don't have anything. There's nothing there.

[Mike Pesca]

They might have something, but they're giving us the blurry version without analysis. And they're like, everyone have at it. You're the experts.

[Negin Farsad]

Tell us what it means. Tell us what it means. But also like we, we see what you're doing here. Like, we're not all dumb dumbs. Oh my God.

[Mike Pesca]

Once Epstein's on a ufo, you know they've reached distraction. And that's it for today's show. Corey War produces the Gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. Ben Astaire is our booking producer and Jeff Craig runs our socials. Michelle Pesca oversees it all benevolently. And thanks for listening.

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