The Gist – Mike Pesca on "Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em"

Date: November 1, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Featured Guests: Nancy Rommelman and Sarah Hepola from Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em

Episode Overview

In this episode, Gist host Mike Pesca rebroadcasts a substantial segment of his appearance on Nancy Rommelman and Sarah Hepola’s podcast, Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em. The heart of the conversation revolves around the sprawling NBA sports betting scandal—its mechanics, cultural roots, Mafia involvement, and the evolution of sports gambling in America. The trio also probes gendered attitudes towards gambling, addiction psychology, regulation, and then pivots to Pesca’s fraught, unpublished interview with former White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre.

The tone is lively, irreverent, and intellectually curious—marrying personal anecdote with sharp cultural critique.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: The NBA Sports Betting Scandal

[11:52–16:51]

• Spectacle & Scale: Pesca explains that the current scandal involves NBA players and Mafia families (Lucchese, Gambino, Bonanno) allegedly organizing fixed poker games using advanced techniques like marked cards, x-ray tables, and contact lenses that read invisible ink.

  • Quote (Pesca, 12:19): “Marked cards, X ray tables, fixed shuffling machines, an NBA hall of Famer, the Mafia ... could bring down billion dollar enterprises.”

• Mafia’s Role Evolution: Even as legalized sports betting was supposed to supplant Mafia involvement, organized crime still finds a niche—especially by extending credit to bettors (unlike legal betting platforms, which require upfront deposit).

  • Quote (Pesca, 13:10): “The Mafia still has a role ... a big role that the Mafia has is they'll extend you credit ... you bet on an account, unlike the sports gambling websites.”

• Types of Modern Bets & Vulnerabilities: Now, almost every aspect of a game (down to individual pitches or rebounds) can be wagered, creating many new opportunities for corruption.

  • Quote (Pesca, 16:01): “All these opportunities for bets ... allow a crazy proliferation of exploitable and illegal activity.”

• Historical Context: Pesca draws a parallel between contemporary complex betting structures and the “tranches” of financial derivatives that triggered the 2008 economic meltdown. Complexity can mask and enable abuse.

2. From Pete Rose to Legalized Betting: How Did We Get Here?

[20:11–27:06]

• Cultural Evolution: Once, betting scandals (like Pete Rose’s) brought severe professional consequences. Now, betting is normalized and widely promoted. The integrity of sports leagues has shifted due to the sheer size and visibility of legal betting markets.

  • Quote (Pesca, 23:34): “Gambling really became the worst thing you could do in baseball ... and then online gambling, or the potential of online gambling, presented itself.”

• Promise vs. Reality of Legalization: Legal gambling was pitched as a way to root out Mafia corruption, since digital trails could spotlight unusual betting activity. But the explosion of “derivative” bets makes oversight and regulation impossible at scale.

  • Quote (Pesca, 23:35): “Online gambling, it was a lot easier to see what they call odd movements in the line ... But the possibility of all these derivatives, this was the Pandora's box.”

• Youth Impact: The ease of access via smartphones is particularly dangerous for young men, whose brains and impulse control are still developing.

  • Quote (Pesca, 27:06): “It’s terrible for young kids ... you can bet at 21 ... But you know, anyone who's 17, anyone who's 18 can get online and it's really, really, really hurting young boys.”

3. Why Is Gambling So Compelling, Especially to Men?

[27:07–33:40]

• Biological & Cultural Factors: Hepola floats the theory that gambling appeals to men’s competitive instincts and desire to be “right” or validated, especially as opportunities for direct competition recede in adult life.

  • Quote (Pesca, 28:47): “It's what you said. Plus they want validation that they're right ... There is a rush of endorphins with gambling. And addicted gamblers will tell you that it wasn't even winning that brought them back. It was the excitement of the unknown.”

• Socio-Cultural “Male Spaces”: Sports and betting are divorced from interpersonal politics—offering an arena where debate is conclusively settled by a result, not an opinion.

  • Quote (Hepola, 32:21): “You can argue all day because it's pov. You can't do that in Sports. ... There's winner and there's a loser.”

• Micro-betting Addiction: As bet types get even more granular (e.g., next pitch outcome), the satisfaction comes not just from major wins, but from endless opportunities to “be right.”

  • Quote (Hepola, 33:14): “It's not just the big bets now ... It's sort of like the crack addict looking through the carpet for crumbs of crack, right?”

4. Gambling as Addiction: Physical, Psychological, Social Aspects

[33:41–39:22]

• Debate Over Addiction Status: Rommelman points out that behavioral addictions (gambling, sex) lack physical withdrawal like substances, but are still recognized because they hijack the pleasure centers of the brain.

  • Quote (Pesca, 35:52): “If you look at the DSM 5 ... it definitely qualifies because it affects the mind and it affects the pleasure centers of the mind.”

• Real Harms & Withdrawal: Even if the withdrawal isn’t physical, Rommelman notes the emotional disruption is significant—habitual behaviors become coping mechanisms.

  • Quote (Rommelman, 37:01): “Withdrawal can be on a spectrum ... There is a compulsive behavior that has been disrupted ... it's become a coping mechanism.”

• Medication and Compulsion: Unexpectedly, drugs like Ozempic (GLP-1 agonists used for diabetes/weight loss) can diminish gambling urges, disrupting compulsive reward circuitry.

  • Quote (Pesca, 38:28): “GLP1s and Ozempic ... affects gambling, you know that, right? ... My friend ... stopped taking it because ... I like gambling and I've been winning.”

5. Addiction and Famous Gamblers

[45:36–46:12]

• Norm Macdonald’s Confessions: The late comedian’s gambling and its extreme consequences (refusing to leave his TV during sports weekends) illustrate addiction’s intensity.
  • Quote (Pesca, 45:56): “[Norm Macdonald] was gambling so much that he just urinated in jars so he wouldn't leave the house or the tv.”

6. Sports Gambling, Athlete Vulnerabilities, and Leagues' Responsibility

[41:00–45:36]

• Why Do Wealthy Athletes Throw Games? Pesca explains that for many athletes, big contracts are misleading after taxes, agents, and trust funds. They often have separate “slush” funds for illicit activity or gambling debts—making them surprisingly vulnerable to fixers, even when paid millions officially.

  • Quote (Pesca, 42:19): “As a percentage of the overall money ... it's stupid. But often [players] have a salary ... and they love any money they can put in their pocket ... they're very exploitable in terms of that.”

• Actual Debt & Psychological Traps: Peer comparison (teammates with bigger contracts), debt, and the ease of “fixing” a minor detail for quick payoff combine into a risk-gamble cycle, even for celebrated pros.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Enduring Role of the Mafia
  Pesca (12:22): "There's still the Mafia ... now this is the Cash Patel FBI ... yeah, it's Lucchese, it's Gambino, it's Bonanno. It's all the Mafia. ... Although I think one of the five families has been folded into another. Like Hardee's became ... Carl's Jr."

• On the Psychology of Gambling
  Pesca (28:47): “...They want validation that they're right. ... [Addicted gamblers] will tell you ... it wasn't even winning that brought them back. It was the excitement of the unknown.”

• On Legalization as Pandora’s Box
  Pesca (23:35): “The possibility of all these derivatives ... This was the Pandora's box. ... it comes with a promise, there's some reformed promise, but ... unintended consequences.”

• On Gambling, Gender, and Social Change
  Rommelman (31:26): “...I always think, when I think about things that, like, men like to do, I imagine them all peeing standing up against a wall ... a grand celebration of peeing against a wall.”

• On Behavior Addiction and Medication
  Pesca (38:28): "GLP1s and Ozempic ... affects gambling ... a friend ... stopped taking it because ... I didn't want to gamble anymore and I like gambling ... that's interesting."

Discussion Shift: Karine Jean-Pierre & Media Interviews

[47:03–52:31]

• Pesca’s Interview with Karine Jean-Pierre:
  Mike recounts trying and failing to get substantive answers from the former White House press secretary about her new book and her political stances after leaving the Biden administration. She would not give policy specifics, answer tough questions, or articulate her “independent” position, leading Pesca to spike the interview for his own audience.

  • Quote (Pesca, 47:31): “Her answer was nothing. How dare you. ... Every one of these interviews turns into an obvious argument because she is not bringing anything to the table.”
  • Quote (Pesca, 49:05): “...I've done thousands of shows ... I think in that time I have spiked three interviews. And this was one where I was like, I can't do this to my audience.”

• Broader Reflection on Political Media Tours:
  The group discusses the phenomenon of calculated, substance-free book tours by political figures, and the audience’s reaction to blatantly evasive interviews.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [11:52] – Start of the sports betting scandal discussion
• [14:21] – Explanation of point spreads, over/unders, and prop bets
• [16:51] – Focus on niche, individualized bets and new corruption opportunities
• [20:11] – Pete Rose story and baseball’s fraught relationship with gambling
• [23:35] – Online gambling’s risks and the “Pandora’s box” of derivatives
• [27:06] – Concerns about youth exposure and societal consequences
• [28:47] – Male psychology, validation, and the rush of risk
• [33:14] – Micro-bets as gambling’s equivalent of “crack crumbs”
• [35:52] – Gambling as behavioral addiction; DSM V recognition
• [38:28] – Ozempic and involuntary reduction in compulsive gambling
• [41:00] – Why wealthy athletes still throw games and succumb to debt/gambling
• [45:56] – Norm Macdonald’s confessions and the depth of his gambling addiction
• [47:03] – Karine Jean-Pierre interview recap and media critique

Conclusion

This irreverent, rich conversation traverses scandal, addiction, masculinity, and media with humor and candor. Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em gives even non-sports fans a window into what’s at stake as betting infiltrates American sports culture—and how the forces driving it are as old, and as new, as vice itself.

Not sure if gambling is addictive? “If you did, you could bet on it at Wonderland Racetrack.”
— Mike Pesca, [34:19]

For the full unedited audio, check out Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em on Substack, or visit The Gist’s substack for further commentary.