The Gist – "Mikhail Zygar: From Glasnost Whiplash to Social-Media Smog"

Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Mikhail Zygar, Russian journalist and author

Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca interviews Mikhail Zygar, the exiled Russian journalist and author of The Dark Side of the Earth: Russia’s Short-Lived Victory Over Totalitarianism. Zygar reflects on the last three decades of the Soviet Union and the tumultuous path toward (and ultimately away from) democracy and openness. The conversation dives into the personal, institutional, and informational aspects of Russia’s journey, drawing parallels with contemporary Western societies grappling with information overload and political cynicism.

Main Discussion Themes & Insights

1. The Personal is Historical: Zygar’s Motivation

• Personal Loss and Exile: Zygar was motivated to write this book after the death of his mother in Moscow and his own exile following the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
  • “I left Russia on the third day of the invasion in 2022... I was sentenced in absentia by Russian state to eight and a half years of prison. So for...opposing the war.” (08:13–08:32)
• Generational Shaping: His family’s story is woven into the broader narrative, highlighting how the last 30 years of the Soviet Union shaped not only Russians, but current leaders worldwide.
  • “Those 30 years of the last 30 years of the Cold War, they still matter and they define the world we live in.” (09:41–09:56)

2. Reporting Under Pressure

• Independent Journalism in Russia: Zygar describes founding and running the only uncensored Russian TV news channel during Medvedev’s brief liberalization, and its collapse after Crimea.
  • “We didn’t have such a phenomena as self censorship, which is the most important because we were very young and bold...” (11:09–11:20)
• State Repression: His book War and Punishment debunked Russian historical propaganda—prompting his exile, as the Kremlin charged him with “spreading disinformation about Russian army.” (12:19–13:35)

3. Key Historical Figures & Episodes

• Zdeněk Mlynář: A Czech classmate of Gorbachev, original supporter of Soviet ideology, then disillusioned reformer and a leading figure of the Prague Spring.
  • “[At Stalin's funeral] no one is really grieving, that people are just...watching football match. It’s just the entertainment for them.” (15:32–15:46)
• Grigory Yavlinsky: Young economist who exposed Soviet economic stagnation, persecuted for his honesty.
  • “They go and they literally find all 600 of these papers and they are wiped out of existence.” (17:48–18:02)
  • “One doctor leans over and whispers in his ear, ‘you’re healthy. Run away.’” (19:02–19:04)
• Raisa Gorbachev: Academic and reformist First Lady, more cosmopolitan than Western leaders, who pursued sociology (not even a recognized field in the USSR).
  • “She was kind of trying to invent something that was completely forbidden.” (21:09–21:33)
  • “Nancy Reagan hated her. For what? For talking too much. For having opinion every now and then.” (20:17–20:22)

4. Soviet “Glasnost” and the Whiplash of Freedom

• Systemic Misinformation and Its Consequences: Under Gorbachev, freedom of information was introduced after Chernobyl made the need for truth urgent.
  • “Gorbachev is shocked because he cannot get any truthful information... For him, that becomes the crucial moment because he realizes that freedom of speech is needed.” (26:29–26:49)
• Freedom As Overload: Glasnost led to “overflow” of information. The sudden shift from enforced ignorance to deluge of truth and conspiracy “blows up minds.”
  • “Very soon journalists start writing...about the Stalinist past, of corruption...they become overflowed with such a great amount of information. And sometimes it’s true, sometimes it’s not.” (27:04–27:47)
  • “People are becoming more and more cynical because they have nothing to believe in and the only protective mechanism is not to believe in anything.” (28:37–29:07)

5. Comparisons to Today’s Information Age

• Information Smog in the West vs. Soviet Propaganda
  • Pesca: “The United States right now is awash in information...maybe even you could say misinformation... But in your country a book was written about them titled Nothing is True and Everything is Possible...” (24:49–25:20)
  • Zygar: “I can compare this unexpected freedom, unexpected freedom of speech in the Soviet Union to the recent technological revolution...when with social media, we...were overflowing with gigantic amounts of information.” (27:41–28:09)

6. Authoritarian Cycles & Institutional Weakness

• Role of Institutions: Zygar agrees that systems with robust democratic institutions have a better chance of weathering disorder.
  • “Institutions are definitely needed...the institution of free and fair election is something that I hope will prevent the United States from the similar scenario...” (30:44–32:30)
• Myth vs. Reality in Leadership: The mythologizing of leaders like Yeltsin echoes patterns in both Russia and the West.
  • Yeltsin: “He was a terrible statesman, but a very talented politician.” (33:50–34:21)
  • “That picture of Yeltsin standing on the tank...proved that he was like that leader who can overcome authoritarianism...which was not true.” (34:42–35:09)

7. Was Russia Doomed to Putinism?

• Alternative Paths: Zygar disputes the Cheney-esque fatalistic view that Russia was inevitably headed towards dictatorship.
  • “Dick Cheney was sure there was no way how Russia could be...transformed...No, actually Dick Cheney’s scenario was fulfilled and we see that that’s a bad scenario.” (36:09–37:54)
  • “Yeltsin...was no George Washington. He didn’t have any values.” (37:54–38:48)
• Gorbachev’s Missed Potential: Zygar argues Gorbachev, for all his flaws, stood for values and might have led to a different future.
  • “Gorbachev was much closer to Sakharov [the famed dissident and scientist] than Yeltsin was. Yeltsin didn’t have any values. He wanted power.” (39:09–39:58)

8. Lessons and Hope for the Future

• Empowering Ordinary People: Zygar wants his book to remind Russians that people—not just elites or “Western conspiracies”—made and unmade the Soviet system.
  • “It explains why people matter, why ordinary people making crucial decisions can change the world.” (41:59–42:15)
  • “It was not the Western conspiracy that ruined Soviet Union. It was Soviet people who defeated Soviet Union.” (43:20–43:31)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Information Overload and Cynicism:
  “People are becoming more and more cynical because they have nothing to believe in and the only protective mechanism is not to believe in anything.”
  — Mikhail Zygar (28:38)

• On the Universality of Media Shocks:
  “The reaction of the humanity to the invention of printing press by gutenberg was more or less the same...we have generations affected by social media.”
  — Mikhail Zygar (29:21)

• On the Soviet Collapse and American Parallels:
  “Somehow this plot reminds us of another empire on decline, which was Soviet Union.”
  — Mikhail Zygar (32:23)

• On Yeltsin’s Leadership:
  “He was a good politician. He was very brave politician. He was a terrible statesman, but a very talented politician.”
  — Mikhail Zygar (34:08)

• On Western Miscalculations:
  “Dick Cheney’s scenario was fulfilled and we see that that’s a bad scenario.”
  — Mikhail Zygar (37:34)

• Anecdote about Solzhenitsyn:
  “Solzhenitsyn...moves to Vermont and almost gets eaten by wolves.”
  — Mike Pesca (40:05)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:54] – Introduction to Mikhail Zygar and his book
• [08:00–10:00] – Zygar’s personal story, motivation for writing
• [11:04–13:35] – Alternative media in Russia, censorship, and exile
• [13:35–19:49] – Historical vignettes: Zdeněk Mlynář, Yavlinsky, Raisa Gorbachev
• [22:54–24:00] – The rise of belief and thinking differently
• [26:02–28:37] – Information systems: Soviet glasnost vs. Western media overload
• [30:10–33:00] – Institutions and resilience: USA vs. USSR parallels
• [33:00–35:09] – The myth and politics of Yeltsin
• [36:09–38:48] – Dick Cheney’s scenario and Western involvement
• [39:09–39:58] – Gorbachev vs. Yeltsin: Values and leadership
• [41:30–43:31] – The book’s message for Russians: ordinary people and agency

Tone and Style

Pesca is characteristically sharp, inquisitive, and nuanced, pushing Zygar to connect history and contemporary themes, sometimes with self-deprecating humor (“I was, I don’t know, some plutocrat who was throwing away very choice cuts of meat only to get to the filet mignon…”). Zygar is measured, reflective, and deeply versed in both personal and political dimensions of Russia’s journey, often making analogies between different historical and technological shifts.

Conclusion

This episode of The Gist offers a rich, multi-layered discussion of how information, power, and mythmaking shaped late Soviet and post-Soviet Russia—while drawing resonant parallels to challenges in the contemporary West. Through historical anecdotes, personal testimony, and thoughtful analysis, Zygar and Pesca probe what determines whether societies fall prey to—or outgrow—authoritarian reflexes.