The Gist – Episode Summary
Title: Miles Taylor on Resistance Cascades, Rubio’s Turn, and Testing the Judiciary
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Miles Taylor, author of "Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy from Trump's Revenge"
Date: September 3, 2025
Duration: ~30 minutes
Overview
In this episode, Mike Pesca conducts a probing, candid interview with Miles Taylor, former Trump administration official and author of the famed “Anonymous” New York Times op-ed. The discussion traverses the dynamics of resistance against Trumpism among Republican officials (the “resistance cascade”), the evolution (or regression) of figures like Marco Rubio, and the critical role—and looming vulnerability—of the courts amid a second Trump presidency. Pesca and Taylor scrutinize the limits of political courage, the messaging challenge for Democrats, and why the American judiciary may soon face its sternest test.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. "Resistance Cascades" – The Social Dynamics of Speaking Out
- Granovetter's Theory Applied: Pesca introduces sociologist Mark Granovetter’s concept of "thresholds" in collective behavior, likening individual resistance to authoritarianism to the dynamics of a riot—one act sparks others ([05:35]).
- Taylor’s Experience Coming Forward: Taylor recounts the loneliness and risk of being the first Insider to publicly criticize Trump but notes, “Within days... some of those same people I had coffee with said, hey, I think I'll join you” ([06:14]).
- The Permission Structure Effect: The presence of prominent defectors provided cover, allowing “a very large minority of Republicans for the first time in their lives [to] vote for a Democrat” in 2020 ([08:39]).
2. Why Resistance Didn’t Continue in 2024
- Recency Bias & the Limits of Courage: Taylor acknowledges that while 2020 saw notable Republican resistance to Trump, by 2024, many defectors had reverted to party loyalty—“People don't have long memories. There is recency bias” ([09:47]).
- Message vs. Messenger: Both agree that heartfelt appeals to “saving democracy” proved abstract and ineffective by 2024, in contrast to Gavin Newsom’s strategy of “dark humor mocking of the absurdity of the way Donald Trump talks,” which resonated more ([13:33]).
3. Trump 2.0 – Same Man, Fewer Constraints
- No Longer Surrounded by ‘Adults’: Taylor highlights that the early Trump term was limited by responsible officials (“the axis of adults”) who would refuse illegal orders; now, “he’s going to have a team that wants to do them” ([15:49], [16:23]).
- Taylor’s View on Trump’s Motivation: “The only asterisk I would add is he always wanted to weaponize the power of the federal government for revenge. And the only thing that changed... is he had more people he wanted to get revenge against” ([15:49]).
- What Resisting ‘the Deep State’ Meant: Taylor defends the civil service, arguing that resistance wasn’t about blocking policy: “It was a group... who regularly said, Mr. President, what you’re telling us to do is illegal or unconstitutional” ([17:15]).
4. On the Complacency (and Culpability) of Top Officials
- Did the ‘Axis of Adults’ Do Enough?: When pressed if Kelly, Mattis, and others did all they could to stop Trump, Taylor is blunt: “No, I don’t think they did all they could do” ([20:03]).
- The High Cost of Speaking Out: Many resist open criticism for personal reasons—“It’s... fucking annoying to have a guy like me be like, hey, speak out, speak out, speak out” ([20:30]).
- Why More Are Silent Now: “A lot of those guys... have gone to ground completely or even repudiated some of their previous comments because they want to be in the good graces of the administration” ([21:30]).
5. Marco Rubio’s Turn and Political Shape-Shifting
- Rubio’s Disappointment: Taylor expresses deep disillusionment with Rubio, calling him a “chameleon” for joining the Trump administration after years of private criticism ([22:14]).
- Personal Anecdote: “He gave some remarks... probably one of the most inspiring pro democracy, off the cuff speeches I’ve ever heard... And just a few months later, he decided to go work for the man who was bringing some of those same forces into our country” ([23:14]).
6. Patronage, Loyalty, and Trump’s “Mob-Like” Management
- Trump Buys Off Opponents: Taylor describes how Trump offers “landing pads” (like UN ambassadorships) to sideline potential critics rather than letting them grow hostile outside of his orbit—"It's very mob like behavior" ([25:13]).
7. Testing the Judiciary
- Courts as Last Bulwark: Taylor praises the lower courts for mostly standing up to unconstitutional acts, viewing Article III as “the last big bulwark we have against a would-be tyrant” ([26:43]).
- Predicted Defiance: “I’m gonna put a marker down right now, Mike... You will see Donald Trump’s White House openly flout a very significant judicial order and that will break the seal...” ([27:32]).
- A Chilling Prospect: Taylor fears normalization of such acts—“I don’t think we end up in a everyone in America is on the streets type of moment... I think it largely passes as another he said, she said...” ([29:00]).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Going First:
“Coffee after coffee, lunch after lunch... folks were like, there's no way I want to go forward... And I did. And, like, within days of having come forward, some of those same people... said, hey, I think I'll join you out there.”
— Miles Taylor ([06:14]) -
On the Impact of Resistance:
“It created those permission structures for Republicans to separate from the party vote a different way and get Donald Trump out of office.”
— Miles Taylor ([09:06]) -
On Republican Memories:
“There is recency bias... those same Republicans who had voted against Donald Trump in 2020... were going back to the tribe.”
— Miles Taylor ([09:55]) -
On Message vs. Messenger:
“If you can do it with a joke, you’re going to be 10 times better than doing it with a lecture. And I think in 2024, America was getting lectured to by the left.”
— Miles Taylor ([13:33]) -
On Trump’s Evolution:
“He is the same man with one exception... the only thing that changed in those four years is he had more people he wanted to get revenge against.”
— Miles Taylor ([15:49]) -
On the ‘Axis of Adults’:
“We were right a few years ago when a lot of us came out and said... if he comes in a second time, it’s a lot darker because the things he keeps directing us to do behind the scenes... he's going to have a team that wants to do them.”
— Miles Taylor ([16:23]) -
On Marco Rubio:
“My disappointment with him is almost bottomless... I still leave open the possibility that he might throw himself on a grenade one day and say, I'm stopping Trump from starting a nuclear war.”
— Miles Taylor ([23:59]) -
On the Judiciary:
“I think well before the end of this administration, you will see Donald Trump's White House openly flout a very significant judicial order and that will break the seal and make it much easier for them to flout other orders.”
— Miles Taylor ([27:32])
Important Timestamps
- [05:35] — Granovetter’s threshold theory and the mechanics of resistance
- [06:14] — Taylor describes going public, and becoming the first domino
- [08:39] — Did the resistance change anything in 2020?
- [09:47] — Why Republicans reverted in 2024 (recency bias)
- [13:33] — On Gavin Newsom’s vs. Harris’s communication styles
- [15:49] — Is Trump darker or simply less constrained in second term?
- [16:23] — John Kelly’s view; behind-the-scenes orders now made public
- [20:03] — Did the “axis of adults” do all they could do?
- [22:14] — Marco Rubio’s transformation
- [25:13] — How Trump manages dissent through patronage
- [26:43] — The role and performance of the courts
- [27:32] — Prediction: open judicial defiance is coming
Tone and Style
Pesca’s questioning is incisive yet fair, with a willingness to challenge both left and right orthodoxy. Taylor’s responses are frank, reflective, and at times emotional, especially regarding his colleagues’ reticence and Rubio’s evolution. Both men maintain an atmosphere of “responsible provocation,” blending political realism with concern for democratic norms.
For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters
This episode offers an insider’s account of the pressures, calculations, and costs behind breaking ranks with Trump. It lays bare the fragility of political courage—why resistance builds slowly, and how quickly it can dissolve. The warning about the judiciary is especially urgent, painting a picture of what a constitutional crisis might look like, not as a single shock but as a slow normalization of executive lawlessness. The conversation is essential listening for anyone seeking to understand current American political dynamics from the inside out.