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NEM: Carine Hajjar and Jeffrey Maurer
00:56:12
Boston Globe columnist Carine Hajjar and five-time Emmy-winning comedy writer and proprietor of the I Might Be Wrong Substack, Jeff Maurer, join to discuss the flood of ICE agents and President Trump’s growing suspicion that Putin isn't on the...
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- [00:00]
Karine Hajar
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Mike Pesca
It's Thursday, July 10, 2025, from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca and it's a Not Even Mad Thursday. Do we call it that? I'm calling it that now. It is Thursday, and today on Not Even Mad, Jeff Maurer, who writes the I Might Be Wrong sub stack. I don't know if that's inducement enough. Let me sell you on Jeff. He's been on the show once or twice before. I love his substack. He's a brilliant guy. He wrote many, many interesting comedy pieces for Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. And then he broke bad with the old man. No, not really. But he is both a former speechwriter for the EPA and someone who knows a lot about policy and knows about communication and is a former standup comedian. And like I said, his substack, I Might Be Wrong is largely right. Also in the right. And I'm not going to give her as big a lead up because as a representative of legacy media, she stands by the brand. It's Karine Hajar. She's been on the show before on Not Even Mad. She was an excellent sparring partner then and will be now. Not Even Mad has been tending more towards comedy, but that's good comedy. Within disagreement. We have a clear conservative and a clear liberal Democrat, and I think it works very well. And if you want even more of that over on the Not Even Mad feed. So this is the gist where every other Thursday or so we play an episode of Not Even Mad. But there's a whole show called Not Even Mad. It's this and more. So we do a bonus segment, an extra segment incorporated in there. We're not going to hitch up for any money. We're not going to try to finagle you into subscribing to a newsletter that maybe you already subscribed to. We're just going to say go to the Not Even Mad feed. You can double dip. You can either or it. Just like the rare earths in the Ukraine, or Ukraine, as it's now called. You can or it. You can either or it. You can listen to it here. If you want even more of Not Even Mad with Jeff Korine and myself, it's over there on the Not Even Mad feed. The extra bonus segment is about the obligatory political topic that we must discuss. Zoran Mamdani. Perhaps you've heard of him everywhere. Well, you'll hear of him on our show, too, but with extra wit and insightfulness from the youth perspective to the Messaging, perspective and a bit on fonts. So that is not even mad there and now here it's also not even mad. The streamlined version for you, my beloved just listener. Enjoy. Foreign Are you buried under non stop meetings and something important happens and you forgot wait what was discussed? Fireflies is your AI teammate. Boom. Pops up is on top of things. So damn useful you don't even have to prod it. You don't have to feed a coffee to wake it up. We're all trying to figure out how to work smarter and not harder. And this is where Fireflies come in. Just say, hey Fireflies. Boom, it's there. Like I say, boom, it's there. Hey Fireflies. Maybe if you're in a meeting while listening to the show now, and I just said, hey Fireflies. You got Firefly. It's good. You'll be better off for it. Fireflies are the number one AI teammate that transcribes, summarizes and analyzes your conversation so you get the most out of every meeting. It's a smarter way to work, as I said. And it seamlessly integrates with the tools you already rely on. It has integrations across more than 60 apps. Apps like Zoom, Google, Meet, Slack, Asana, Zapier, and your CRM. You know, some of the things that provides are real time and up to date web search, shareable sound bites. I like that. Timestamp notes that allow you to pinpoint key moments. That is important. And bookmarks. What are you waiting for? Join the over 500,000 companies already using Fireflies. Hey Fireflies. And right now, when you sign up for a yearly Fireflies subscription, you get your first two months free. Just go to Fireflies AI the gist. That's right, two months free when you go to Fireflies AI the gist. That's Fireflies AI. Slash the gist. So summer's in full swing. You're like me. Hey, let's brush up and spruce up the closet. Spruce. Not being a summer tree, but you get it. Let's dandelion the closet. I don't want to waste money on clothes that I will only wear once or for a season. And I was talking to my wife and she agrees that Quints Quints clothes are timeless, they feel luxurious, they look elevated, and the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price. Let me put that another way. The quality is really high. The price is super affordable. European linens. 100% European linen starting at 3 $30 washable silk dresses and skirts. If you are of the dress and skirt wearing variety, soft cotton sweaters. I have a quint sweater. It's green. It's like a hunter green. I've worn it in, I think in the video I did with Robbie Hoffman, one of the funny you should mention videos.
- [05:22]
Jeff Maurer
I think it looks good.
- [05:23]
Mike Pesca
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- [06:58]
Karine Hajar
Hey there.
- [06:59]
Mike Pesca
And we also have Jeff Maurer, who is the proprietor of the I Might Be Wrong substack. Jeff, if you had to do it again, would you rename it?
- [07:11]
Jeff Maurer
No, it's. It's served me pretty well because I'm wrong a lot. So it's truth in advertising, I think.
- [07:16]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, I was thinking of going the other way, but you could just go with I was wrong. I, in fact, was wrong.
- [07:21]
Jeff Maurer
I didn't consider. I'm kind of ungoogle able because it's named after a Radiohead song. But of course, when you Google it, the Radiohead song comes up. I didn't think of that angle. So room for improvement, I suppose.
- [07:32]
Mike Pesca
Kareem. Okay, computers out there as a possible substack title, but if you had to rename the Boston Globe, what would you go with?
- [07:39]
Karine Hajar
Oh, dear, I. If I brainstorm on this, I will get in very big trouble. That's the hometown paper.
- [07:48]
Mike Pesca
That's it. They're the hub. So I will now quote Jonathan V. Last he was writing the Bulwark, and he said the Trump administration realized that corrupting the FBI would be a tall order.
- [07:59]
Jeff Maurer
I don't know.
- [07:59]
Mike Pesca
I've been paying attention. So while they're certainly trying to do that, they put most of their chips on a different number. Reinventing ICE as the primary instrument of internal state power. Harvard political scientist Theta Skoc wrote, immigration is an area where a US President can exercise virtually unchecked legal, coercive power, especially if backed by a Supreme Court majority and corrupted by the Department of Justice. Now, Congress has given ICE unprecedented resources sources. I actually didn't think of this when I was thinking of all the bad things about the big beautiful bill. And yet, on the other hand, if we are going to have illegal enforcement of immigration, which a lot of people don't want, but the public generally does, we have to have someone to do the enforcement. Now, Karine, I've been reading a lot of your writings about the excesses of ICE within your state. The Lopez case has gotten a lot of attention, but where do you stand on how ICE has been used and on are you worried about overweening state power with this new round of funding? Yeah.
- [09:05]
Karine Hajar
So I think the first thing to consider, if anyone's ever had the misfortune of reading through the ina, the Immigration Nationality act, it does give the state a lot of power on immigration. And this came up a lot when we were talking about deporting student activists like Mahmoud Khalil. If you look in the ina, there is a provision that says, well, if the Secretary of State thinks this person is a threat to national security, or whatever the term was, they can be deported. So it's pretty tricky because a lot of what is going on is deeply upsetting. But whether. And it's being branded as illegal in a lot of cases, it's a little more complicated than that. A lot of what is being done is legal. But this gets to the deep question of should we do everything that we have the power to do. I think that the consensus, I mean, Americans are growing increasingly squeamish with how deportations are going along. But at the same time, there's pretty much a consensus, and this should be like a clear message for the Trump administration that Americans have, there's consensus on deporting criminal migrants, the greater deportations. When it comes to collateral, what they call collateral, like you're out on a mission looking for some guy accused of.
- [10:16]
Mike Pesca
Whatever, just Just happened to stumble across a migrant type.
- [10:21]
Karine Hajar
This makes people more squeamish. And frankly, I just don't think it's a political winner for the admin. And they've already walked back in certain areas, like farm workers, for example. So I think in the end they have to decide, do we want to do everything we actually can do, or should we just focus on what Americans actually want us to do?
- [10:39]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. So, Jeff, I know you believe in open borders of the soul, but is this one of those situations where you write about that Americans sort of being nice people, but babies essentially would like the result but don't want the effort to get there?
- [10:54]
Jeff Maurer
You know, I don't think that's how I'd put it. I think Karine, you know, touched on the true and obvious thing that most people want, which is that if you're gonna have immigration laws, they need to be enforced somehow, but sensibly and humanely. You know, there are a lot of laws that are on the books and could be enforced in a draconian and ridiculous way, but we wouldn't want that. I mean, nobody wants to get the electric chair for jaywalk, that type of thing. So, yeah, I think most Americans are somewhere in the middle there. There does need to be some enforcement. But yeah, I think when you start to hear about, like ICE agents going after people in Home Depot parking lots, it's like those guys in the Home Depot parking lot, in my opinion, are not a problem. They are in fact, quite helpful if you need to move something large. And I think especially for less than minimum wage. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Well, there's a labor issue, labor law issue, that's a kind of a different issue. But those, they're not hurting anybody. And illegal immigration is weird. I personally think of it as. It's, you know, like immigration laws exist and they do need to be enforced, but I also think, like, I would break them if I were in those guys shoes. So it's always hard for me to get very mad when it's like, I see why you did that. You know, it's like, I respect the get up and go. I have a little. I have more of an issue with the people who stayed in, you know, wherever they're from, if things aren't going well and didn't have the initiative to swim across a river or hop a fence, that's what I would have done. So it's, it's complex feelings when I look at those people.
- [12:32]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. And I understand the inclination to say, well, we want some immigration Enforcement, but we don't want to go too far. But the argument is, it's pretty compelling, is that the Trump administration does want to go too far. They don't see too far as too far. It's the famous phrasing of Adam Serwer in the Atlantic. The cruelty is the point. I would be a little more subtle than that. I think most people who subscribe to that just think, Stephen Miller, he's a horrible person and Donald Trump is a horrible person, and they just have enmity and evil in their souls or something like that. I would say there is a bit of strategy to it, which is if you advertise that we are not open for business among immigrants, you're going to get the effect of disincentivizing immigrants to reach the border or to cross the border. And, Jeff, that's exactly where I think most Americans are. They don't want a country overrun by people who shouldn't be here, but they want the enforcement to be not among the people who have put down any roots. And I don't know how possible that is. I think, very robust. Border enforcement is something that most people do agree with. And I think certainly all the polling shows that when you're talking about picking up illegal people, people who are here, sorry, who have criminally broken the law, people with arrest records, that's something the public agrees with. I don't know how much of a dent you can make because, Karine, you were just reporting in one of your articles that in Massachusetts, ICE has made about 1500 arrests and half of them have no criminal record.
- [14:05]
Karine Hajar
Yeah, just about. I mean, but your point on deterrence is a good one, I think. Like, so I went to the border in 2022 during, like, the early days of what you would call like the Biden border crisis. And it really was this sense of, like, you kept having top officials saying, well, like, you can't come here, you can't cross the border, and then like, basically rolling out the red carpet procedurally for people to do so, and they got the message loud and clear that, like, you're just going to get a court date and you will be released, which is, for the most part, exactly what was happening. So I do think that there is something to you, you know, enforcing these rules more strictly at the get go to send a clear message. I understand that logic. The question is just like, how far do you go with that? You know, border apprehensions and border encounters went starkly down when Trump was elected. Even, I'm pretty sure even before he went into Office. But certainly now like border encounters are so low, so people are getting the message. One other thing about just, you know, the overall messaging is it's really interesting because a lot of people are self deporting right now. Art Arthur at the center for Immigration Studies wrote a whole report on this. But the Trump administration's program to get people to just self deport and leave on their own is actually working. So I think that's just an interesting part of the whole deterrence conversation.
- [15:22]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, I don't know how much I could trust a guy named Art Arthur, but I take your point. Here's another aspect to all of this. The Democrats. Well, Jeff, earlier in your answer you said something like illegal immigration or some normal American US phrase. But just saying that for too long would get you essentially run out of the party. In the New York Times had an article about the Democrats ongoing struggle with how to not just message but how to actually legislate. And they quote Representative Ayanna Presley right there from Boston. Korean Democrats have to start talk, have to stop talking about the issue of immigration within a Republican frame. This has nothing to do with law and order. This is about power, control, terror and it is about racism and xenophobia. Donald Trump wants to America Jim Crow again and then some. I mean, maybe he does, but if that's your policy plank, is there this middle ground, this elusive middle ground we've been grasping for?
- [16:19]
Jeff Maurer
Well, there is the middle ground. It's just will anybody seize it? I mean, are these our choices? Ayanna Pressley and Stephen Miller, what's behind door number three? I'm just tell you right now, I'm taking door number three no matter what's behind it. And I think.
- [16:33]
Mike Pesca
Party segue, is that where we're going with this?
- [16:37]
Jeff Maurer
Yeah, that's why I'm here to stump for the America Party. You got me, Mike. I didn't think my agenda would be uncovered this early in the episode, but here we are.
- [16:45]
Mike Pesca
The mask has slipped and the agenda is shift.
- [16:48]
Jeff Maurer
Here's the thing though, your options are not. Ayanna Pressley and Steven Miller, you noticed that I said, I guess I said illegal immigration. I didn't, it didn't even register that I said it. You're right that in some quarters that's the thing. And I'm on the left and I've voted for Democrats in every election I've ever voted in, which is all of them. And but I'm also a writer. I was a speechwriter for a long time and now I've been a political comedy writer for a long time. And I feel pretty strongly that you just need to talk the way people talk. The point of words is to communicate. And undocumented immigrant is not a phrase that people use. You have to be really well steeped in those certain circles where that's the preferred term to know to say that. And everyone else says illegal immigration. And I actually start to start to think that more Democrats are coming around to where I am and realizing like, oh yeah, let's stop sounding like robots.
- [17:42]
Mike Pesca
But is there really a third way? We'd like to think there was a third way. Just like with Doge cuts, we'd like to think, well, you could cut some of the waste without going all chainsaw. But can we? And if so, why don't we? We've had decades to have a politics that showed something like the third way, and it doesn't seem to present itself on immigration on so many issues where. Go ahead.
- [18:09]
Jeff Maurer
Well, let me, on immigration, let me offer a radical idea which would be a modern immigration system that meets our needs. One of the reasons so many people come here legally is because our system is too cumbersome and too restrictive and they come here illegally because they can't come here legally. This is something I write about sometimes and I've got a really, you know, broad readership, people from all over points on the political spectrum. But people on the right often get mad at me when I say some version of people are just going to come if there is this big of a mismatch between how many workers we need, and I hate to call people workers, but it's economics that's driving it. That's why I'm saying workers, how many workers we need, roughly that many will come here and if we restrict them, then they'll just come here illegally. And that's the reality. So a system that let the right number of people right in terms of the labor market in legally would negate the illegal immigration problem because that would be a lot less necessary. And that's the type of thing. I can give you a cynical but I think true answer as to why that's not happening. Mike, Republicans want this as an issue. It is such a huge issue for their base. It really gets them fired up. And they don't want an immigration compromise because what would Fox News talk about if it wasn't fear mongering about illegal immigration? Obama tried this. Obama tried this especially at the beginning of his second term. There's a big push for a deal. They didn't want it because they want it as a campaign issue, but at.
- [19:35]
Karine Hajar
The same time, Democrats want it as an issue. I mean, the whole Biden.
- [19:41]
Jeff Maurer
I want to hear what you have to say. But some Democrats do. Democrats like me don't. But please, go ahead.
- [19:46]
Karine Hajar
Yeah, I mean, there are some Republicans who can be pragmatic on immigration, but I think you're right that the party has to. I mean, one, like, the base decision that the party needs to make is if they like immigration or not. And that's a long debate in the Republican Party. I love immigration. There are a lot of conservatives who don't. That's just a conversation they need to have. But Democrats also spent the last four years basically assuming that anyone that wanted to come into this country illegally was coming with the right intentions. And, you know, a lot of the people I've met have been perfectly nice, would be really productive Americans and members of our society. And to your point, they should be able to come here without expensive lawyers and documents that are impossible for anyone to understand. Like, there is a serious problem that speaks to reform. Like, that has to happen. But also bad people come in all the time. And this is sort of like, this has been informing a lot of the debate and places like Massachusetts. But I'll use Massachusetts as an example because I know it best. I mean, a lot of the Trump administration's ire with Massachusetts right now is that we just. The state does not cooperate as much when it comes to people convicted of crimes like there should be. It should be easier for ICE and local law enforcement to cooperate on these issues. But on both sides, there are just blanket approaches.
- [21:07]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, there are sanctuary cities in New York. There are sanctuary cities in San Francisco. I. Virginia, which doesn't have them and which has Glenn Youngkin as a mayor. Sorry, As a governor. They have proportionally a record number of deportation and ICE involvement. And Jeff, I think I want to live in the world, and it's more of an Obama world where the majority, the mainstream of the Democratic Party has your view, and maybe the mainstream of the party did have your view in the 2020 election, but they weren't allowed to express your view. And when Joe Biden was the only one on the stage who didn't put up his hand for let's not have criminal enforcement. He got filleted and he had to do the stations of the Cross. And there was so much messaging, and that was seen as a huge political loser. Things are changing. The center for American Progress now has position papers emphasizing legal immigration. I'd like for that to be the Case, I don't know that the counter mobilization to the very real ICE excesses is going to breathe into being a Ruben Gallego esque Democratic Party with any ability to do anything versus an Ayanna Presley or just a rump faction Democratic Party.
- [22:19]
Jeff Maurer
Yeah, well, quite possibly. But what if. What if they just dialed the crazy down by two notches? That would. That might happen and it would be worth two notches. Two notches, Mike, you got to give me that. Right.
- [22:31]
Mike Pesca
Two out of what? What's the scale? Yeah.
- [22:34]
Jeff Maurer
A thousand. Yeah, I don't know. But. But we all seem to have witnessed the same thing, which was a weirdening of the left on this issue to where things got so accelerated that it really was open borders in all but name, at least among the rhetoric of the fringiest people you can find. And I'm probably being unfair by calling them fringy because at times they did make their way into the mainstream. Mike, you pointed out that moment in the debate in 2020. Yeah, that did happen. My point is simply that I think that wave has crested and is washing back out. Where things will end, who knows? But I guess we'll see.
- [23:17]
Mike Pesca
Is that. I mean, you're almost demanding I end the segment there, but I still have to ask you a question. Beautiful. Only time will also tell.
- [23:25]
Jeff Maurer
Okay, it's your podcast. End it wherever you like.
- [23:29]
Mike Pesca
When you tie something up in a button and then the unbutton, untie or comes by, that guy's, he's not helping things, he's hurting. Feng shui.
- [23:36]
Jeff Maurer
Well, you can edit it out if you decide. If you decide to mistake, edit it out. I want to hear. I want to hear your question.
- [23:41]
Mike Pesca
Will the trends of being upset, being more upset, reacting to the reaction, which I think Donald Trump definitely plays into. And this is why he put armed forces and Homeland Security in the streets in L. A, because he wants that fight. Will it allow a dialing down of the crazy of two notches or. Or a finding of new forms of crazy? I don't know how many Democrats will be able to get elected on an immigration platform of anything other than what Trump did. We're doing the opposite. I know the center for American Progress and it's right there in the name. They're centrists and they're into progress. I know they have constructive policy papers that would say otherwise. I just don't know where the passions of the American electorate are. What's your inclination, Karine?
- [24:34]
Karine Hajar
I mean, it's actually where the American public is. Is pretty simple. Americans overall like Immigration, it's interesting because they're. The way that they felt about immigration generally actually went down during the Biden administration when immigration was equated with chaos. Now, like sort of a similar issue is happening where they're squeamish with collateral arrest, like we talked about. But overall, Americans seem to be amenable to more legal immigration, making that system easier. And the vast majority want criminals to be deported. Now I think like some of the really performative, both from the right and from the left, is not helping anyone. But I've been focusing on some of the protests in particular on the left. And when you go to these, like I went to an ICE anti ICE protest in lower Manhattan and it's everyone like with keffiyehs and at the center, like you'd think you'd walk there and you'd see, I don't know, Latin American flags, but the first thing you saw was a Palestinian flag right at the center of the protest. And when you associate like being against ICE deporting members of families and like putting the faces of like 18 year olds who have been deported on their way to school, et cetera, et cetera, like that strikes me as a movement that could really get at the sympathy of people. But then when this becomes just like part of a whole progressive movement on Israel, Palestine and when you have like truly violent protests in la, I don't see that as effective messaging from the left or like trying to work at a solution. And my guess is that a lot of moderate Democrats who understand that immigration laws, until there's reform, need to like somewhat be enforced. They're probably annoyed by it as well.
- [26:20]
Mike Pesca
Well, they got the Palestinian flag, lots of people jump in the wall from Janine. That's what's going on. Well, so the last thing is what we started off with was this concern among, you know, I quoted a very well respected political scientist from Harvard and a guy from the Bulwark and I could quote, Damon Linker is a real centrist who I follow. And they're worried. They're worried that $30 billion towards ISIS enforcement and deportation operations and increasing the annual budget threefold will give Trump some sort of shock troops, which again doesn't argue for the or gur for the two notch down hopefulness. Are you worried about that?
- [27:02]
Jeff Maurer
I thought that the two notches were about what might happen on the left. I think on the left people are mostly realizing that what the, the trend of 2020 didn't end up well on the right.
- [27:14]
Mike Pesca
No. Yeah, yeah, but that's what I'm talking about, too. They're so worried about Trump having shock troops, they have to counter mobilize. Everyone I'm talking about is roughly anti Trump, if not the left.
- [27:24]
Jeff Maurer
God, is this where we are mobilizing troops? You know, metaphorically, but I guess with ICE being armed to the teeth, somewhat literally, yeah. I hope it doesn't come to that, that Trump turns ICE into some horrible enforcement force. And then the. I mean, that would be a bad start. And then the bad reaction to that would be for the left to say, well, then we need an equal and opposite, equally horrible and equally stupid opposite reaction, which I guess would be to, well, not only have open borders, but I guess buy everyone in the world a plane ticket to come here. What? How could we. How could we get more stupid? Whatever that thing is, I'm sure Ayanna Pressley will find it, but I hope that's not where we end up.
- [28:13]
Mike Pesca
All right, well, the one silver lining is at those rallies for immigration, slash Free Free Palestine, you see many fewer Free Mumia signs. So I don't know. He hasn't been freed. I don't know what happened.
- [28:24]
Jeff Maurer
Is he still alive?
- [28:26]
Mike Pesca
He is free.
- [28:27]
Jeff Maurer
Muya was a thing when I was in college, and that was not recently.
- [28:30]
Mike Pesca
Did it work?
- [28:32]
Jeff Maurer
Do you know who thought maybe he was free? And you're telling me that he's not and he's still alive, so. But maybe. Maybe one more protest and they'll free him.
- [28:40]
Mike Pesca
Do you know who he is, Kareem?
- [28:42]
Karine Hajar
I don't. I was just about to ask.
- [28:44]
Mike Pesca
You know what? I'll send you the Wikipedia page. Possibly shot a Philadelphia police officer, but possibly also a freedom fighter. All right, in a second, we will talk about another icon of freedom, Vladimir Putin, and what Donald Trump's ongoing and evolving relationship to the man is. We'll be back with more of not even mad. We're back now with not even mad. And we are. We were just talking during the break. I swear, we're not even mad. We are Karian Hajar and Jeffrey Maurer, and I'll start with a quote, see who said it. We get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin. He said during a Cabinet meeting, okay, it was Trump adding that the Russian leader was, quote, nice, but a lot of what he said turns out to be meaningless. I would say that's essentially backwards. The Russian president is not nice, but he says a lot of meaningful things, like, I intend to attack Ukraine. The. This is reporting in the Wall Street Journal. The approach appears to be faltering. Trump critical. This is Putin's approach. Trump, critical of continued Russian airstrikes, says he plans to resume arms shipments to Kiev. He is considering sending an additional Patriot air defense system to Ukraine, the Wall Street Journal reported on Tuesday. So what I want to know is really not has Donald Trump played this? Right. But is Putin continue to play Donald Trump like whatever the Russian version of a fiddle is? It's probably a fiddle. They're very good music. Yeah. Okay, go with that, Jeff.
- [30:30]
Jeff Maurer
Okay.
- [30:31]
Mike Pesca
Has he played him, like, one of those?
- [30:34]
Jeff Maurer
Me?
- [30:35]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [30:38]
Jeff Maurer
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. I, like many people, have been baffled by Trump's love for Putin and what he's doing. Even now when he. I mean, you're quoting that Wall Street Journal article, which I thought was a lot of good news in there. It's like, finally, maybe he's kind of starting to see Putin for who he is. He still felt the need to call him nice, which is such a funny word. I think even people who, you know, like Putin, respect Putin, admire him, are inspired by him. Nice, I don't think is a word they would go to. Right.
- [31:14]
Mike Pesca
When Dmitry Peskov comes to Putin with the list of adjectives, this is what we're going with. He crosses out nice like, no, you're not calling me that in public.
- [31:22]
Jeff Maurer
It makes me picture Putin in, like, robin's egg blue cardigan sweater, just, like, playing with some preschoolers. Just, like a nice guy. Just what a nice dude. But, yes, I think Putin has manipulated Trump. Something's going on. I don't know why Trump has been so obsequious to Russia. The thing I wrote about this week is, like, maybe he just really wants to win a Nobel Prize, and he thinks if he can pressure Ukraine into quitting, he'll get a Nobel Prize. I don't know, but that Wall Street Journal article was encouraging because it looks like maybe he's starting to realize, hang on. Putin is not the good guy.
- [31:57]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [31:59]
Jeff Maurer
Got to give him that. He's very nice.
- [32:00]
Mike Pesca
But, Karin, you think that realization is dawning on Trump, or do you think that he's getting embarrassed by Putin not doing what he Trump wants?
- [32:08]
Karine Hajar
Both. Well, I think Trump, I mean, like, when I hear him called Putin nice, I hear him thinking this is a business negotiation, and if you schmooze the guy and give him a nice dinner at Mar a Lago, then he'll shake your hand and the war. But to Jeff's point, I take Putin exactly what he says, I'm going to believe it. He's doing exactly what he said he was going to do two things, I think. I think one, Trump is now waking up to the fact that you have to hold your red lines. You have to. Like, this was. He's waking up to the fact that the business schmoozing is just not going to work here. It's also, he's probably embarrassed. And, I mean, I think it's embarrassing that the White House was not notified that we shut off shipments. What was it like last week, weapon shipments to Ukraine? I mean, like, it's. It's just. It's all disorder sort of everywhere you look.
- [33:03]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. Hegseth decides one thing, and then he goes back on what Hegseth says, and it's unclear if they even knew what the other. Well, Hegseth knew what Trump was saying, but if Trump even knew that the shipments were stopped. Yep.
- [33:14]
Karine Hajar
But the other thing, too is like, there is a part, again, like, Trump was really good at coalition building. And this sort of, like, applies to all of the conflicts in the Republican Party right now. He built it. But the problem is, if you're too good at coalition building, then you have a party full of people who disagree with each other. And there are a lot of voices in the Republican Party right now that just don't want to help Ukraine, and there are a lot of voices that really, really do. So, you know, it'll be interesting to see where Trump falls. But as somebody who would like to see Ukraine not fully invaded and absorbed, I think it's good that Trump sort of waking up to the fact that Putin is really not his friend in these negotiations. And if calling him, if he has to go out and call him, nice. But behind the scenes is. Is sending more weapons to Ukraine, I'm fine with that.
- [34:02]
Mike Pesca
I think Trump is very bad at negotiating with adversaries. He's not terrible at negotiating with people who are friends to begin with, because when he negotiates with business partners who wouldn't mind if Donald Trump came out of the deal okay, he is quite willing to violate all sorts of norms and all sorts of protocols and really make the other guy squirm and suffer. Now, I have to say, it's not as if Democrats in the Biden administration are good at this either. A good example is recently Trump, he didn't get Naito to agree to spend more than 5% on defense, but essentially this is how it shook out. And it was because of Putin's excesses and adventurism in Ukraine, but the Biden administration would go there. Gideon Rose of. Of Council of Foreign Relations had a really good quote in a New Yorker piece where he said the Biden administrator administration would go there and talk to people whose opinions they really valued and say, please give more money for defense, and they would never do it. And then the Trump administration sent J.D. vance and said, you people are all terrible. We hate you, we have no shared values, and you better do this. And Naito hated J.D. vance, but they did it also because Putin was invading Ukraine. But my general point is he's very bad at negotiations, I think, with real adversaries. His negotiation with, with Kim Jong Un went nowhere. His negotiation with Iran went nowhere. As a negotiation, as a bombing, it seemed to have gone okay. And his negotiation with Putin, a bit of a cheat.
- [35:38]
Jeff Maurer
If you can interrupt the negotiation with an airstrike.
- [35:42]
Mike Pesca
It is true, it is a get out of negotiation free card. But I don't think he has any skill at this. And I don't even know if he wants anything other than someone to say, good job, you somehow get a medal, which is, I don't know how tongue in cheek it was. I think you actually believe that's what he wants, right, Jeff?
- [35:59]
Jeff Maurer
Well, I think it's in the mix potentially. I struggle to understand why any American president would look at what's going on in Ukraine and think, I can't tell who's the good guy and who's the bad guy here. How do you explain that? So I'm grasping for explanations. I'm trying to not be a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy. Well, okay, they've got something.
- [36:20]
Mike Pesca
Frank, rank the plausibility of the following explanations. One, he's bought he's a Russian stooge. Two, he has this Nobel tropism. Three, he's just bad at negotiations and is getting played.
- [36:35]
Jeff Maurer
Well, okay, I would rank them 1 and 2, but then 3 doesn't quite make sense to me because just what's his goal in this negotiation? Because what I don't understand is that his goal does not seem to be to get Putin out of Ukraine. His. I don't know what his goal is.
- [36:53]
Mike Pesca
His goal is to stop the war and he doesn't care at what point, like at any cost what the borders are gonna be.
- [36:59]
Jeff Maurer
Okay?
- [37:01]
Mike Pesca
That's what I think his goal is. No war. No.
- [37:03]
Jeff Maurer
Okay, yeah. Well, then why does he care? Why does he care?
- [37:07]
Mike Pesca
Goes back to the Nobel Prize.
- [37:08]
Jeff Maurer
Yeah, yeah, that's it, the Nobel Prize. Explanations one and two, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:13]
Mike Pesca
And then there's also a minerals deal or things that he thinks he could get out of the United States. But what he really doesn't do, that's the question. Why does he care? He does not care at all for the things that the other presidents before him have cared about. And this is not so boxy, but it's just an analysis. We just take it for granted that of course you got to stop aggressions of our enemies, of course you got to protect our friends. And then you want to throw in there something, something pro democracy, something, something they oppress people that we wouldn't. Yeah, that's all gravy. And Trump doesn't have that orientation at all. And I think his people like that.
- [37:46]
Karine Hajar
Well, he does on Iran, which is interesting. I really think this does come down to like the composition of the administration, like the people. A lot of the voices on Russia are like, again, there are a lot of pro Ukraine voices in the Republican Party, but there are a lot of Putin sympathists. But on Iran, the Republican Party takes Iran at its word and, and holds them to it. And Trump has been pretty good at holding his red lines like with the strike on custom Soleimani and the first admin with maximum pressure. And now he is doing exactly as he said he would if they didn't cooperate. I think that's strong foreign policy right there with Russia for what it's. I think like the real question for Republicans is why are we not? Like why are they not taking Putin at his word?
- [38:30]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, well, I want to ask you about that and just situate yourself. I know you always write about right of center things and I think that's your orientation. But, but were you once a Republican? Are you a Republican? Are you just a Republican whisperer with right leaning inclinations? Where would you put yourself for the purposes of this next question?
- [38:47]
Karine Hajar
Yeah, yeah, I'd say I first I would first and foremost identify as a conservative even what that means today is sort of up for grabs. But you know, your classic, as you will hear and your classic poli sci conversations, the annoying classical liberal. Unfortunately that's the best I can do at this. I think that's the easiest way to identify myself. But yeah, I mean like I think I align more with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party. But right now a lot of, especially on foreign policy, a lot of domestic issues there have some grips and where.
- [39:21]
Mike Pesca
Are you with not where are you with comfort of use of force when necessary? You got to say that who wants use of force when unnecessary? But where are you with use of force when necessary versus not our fight shouldn't be our treasure. You know, the Isolationist versus the peace through strength faction.
- [39:39]
Karine Hajar
I'm definitely not an isolationist. And that's like, this has been one of my bigger fear when I talk about like gripes with the Republican Party. This is one of my biggest fears with the Republican Party. But I think it's not like I just revel in the bombing of Iran. Like, I don't, I don't love when we have to use force, but I think it should always be on the table with adversaries because the minute you take that off the table, they sort of run amok. And we saw this with Biden, they, Iran took advantage of him on everything. Like we were at the point in the Biden administration where taking the IRGC that has been responsible for hundreds of American deaths, we're going to take them off the FTO list. Meanwhile, there are assassins trying to kill the current President of the United States and other high ranking officials. I mean, it was ludicrous what we were willing to let them get away with and basically sending the message that at the end of the day we're not going to do anything to hold you accountable. So I think it's a good thing that Trump is holding. Like if you have a red line, you need to hold that red line. But that being said, you know, it's not ideal that we're getting into these sort of war situations. Like, I don't think it should be the end goal, but it has to be a deterrent.
- [40:44]
Mike Pesca
Right, Right. And so, but just to be fair to the Iranian assassins, they were very bad at it. Yeah, I just really bad at it. Yeah, they're terrible. Okay, so this is all to say, can you help me? I honestly don't know. I perceive there is a real difference of opinion among maybe the isolationists or those who would be isolationists when it comes to Iran versus Russia. I think there was a much greater willingness to, to be harsh, not even to attack. No one's talking about bombing Russia, but the animosity towards Iran was two or three times greater than it is with Russia. And is this, what, healthy fear of a nuclear state? Maybe something having to do with Slavs and race, the religion of each? Why is there such a difference? Am I right about that?
- [41:37]
Karine Hajar
I think you're right, but I think actually the differences is shrinking. I did a, I made a quiz for our, for the Globe opinion newsletter and it was basically just who said it, Rashida Tlaib or Tucker Carlson, like Matt Walsh or Bernie Sanders, and you truly could not tell. So on, on Iran. And this was about Iran in particular. Like there were growing voices on the right that were really upset with the Trump administration over these strikes. I, I think like in the admin you have a lot of, I think a lot again, like a lot of it comes down to staffing. There are a lot of Iran hawks in this administration and they've held the line on Iran.
- [42:19]
Mike Pesca
Who said it? Jeff? A real white man doesn't fight like that. Rashida Tlaib or Tucker Carlson? RASHIDA Tlaib no, no, sorry. The exact quote is it's not how white men fight. But you want to take off any bite of that?
- [42:41]
Jeff Maurer
No. Look, I spend so much time dealing with factional fights in the Democratic Party that I'm happened happy to see the Republicans have to deal with their own factional fight. Oh, good. It's not just us that deals with this. I'll let them sort out.
- [42:54]
Mike Pesca
Well, let me ask you this. I don't know what's your ideal? And Karine said, you know, it's not great that we have to do this. Of course, world without Ayatollah's world without Vladimir Putin putting things up would be better. But what's your ideal posture for Democrats? A coalition of Democrats and Republicans. With Ukraine.
- [43:14]
Jeff Maurer
With Ukraine, yeah.
- [43:15]
Mike Pesca
As it comes to Ukraine funding Ukraine military in Ukraine, I think what's effective.
- [43:20]
Jeff Maurer
Negotiation for Ukraine, I think what's, what's outstanding about what's going on in Ukraine is that the Ukrainians are fighting and they're doing an outstanding job. And if you think of all the times in American history when we have thought, boy, this, you know, this conflict in which we are not a combatant, but we do have a vested interest, we really would hope it would go a certain way and then it doesn't go that way. But the Ukrainians, against all expectations, are fighting this war and they are fighting a country with, is it four times their population? It's several times. I think it's four. It's several times their population. They're fighting them to a draw and they're doing it through great loss of life and through great suffering on their part. It's been inspiring, I think. And what do we get from this? Well, we get one of our biggest adversaries stuck in the mud in a foreign country. We get the international system that has done so well for the United States upheld, not smashed to smithereens. It still exists. And if you care about things like, you know, people not getting invaded by a foreign power and having a foreign army march in and say you're part of Our country now. Well, you get that too. And we get it for unbelievably cheap in the grand scheme of things because we're not. No American soldiers are dying, no Americans are fighting, no Americans are dying. We're spending some money. But we're also, you know, because it's this thing where they get munitions we already have and then we commission, you know, new weapons. We're basically giving them our old clothes and we're going out and buying new ones. It's not as much money as it could be. So in my opinion the bang for the buck funding Ukraine is just unbelievable. It's just a total no brainer. And we've done it some and I think we should do it more. And Karina's right that there are Republicans who look at this and think, boy, that is a good deal. That is a good bargain. We are getting a lot for a little and we should continue doing that. I just wish there were more Republicans like that. And I wish the President was one of them.
- [45:32]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. You know Jeff, I like you because you're funny, but it turns out you're also smart. I agreed with almost everything. I think maybe everything you said, except maybe the four times the population figure after the war. It's now 3.99. And it does seem the whole. Yeah, and it does seem about the whole deal.
- [45:50]
Jeff Maurer
Maurer, I had been told that you are thick between the ears, but I guess it's not entirely true.
- [45:57]
Mike Pesca
I thought you're just your seltzer placement in your clownish antics was enough. But it turns out you were making a serious point. And also of course when you give someone your old clothes, you would hope that your current outfits wouldn't slip off the deck of an aircraft carrier. So that is also going on. And there's an interesting thing there. I understand that we, the United States did actively engage with Iran and we're not actively engaging with Ukraine. Ukraine. But the very same sort of person or exact person that was unbelievably worried in fact was assured at the gravitational pull of being involved in bombing Ukraine that this would of course lead to another sluggish war in the Middle East. That exact person in the Democratic Party was also the same person who never thought that that would happen in Ukraine. It's Tucker Carlson who wasn't against Iran, I'll say that, but I mean he wasn't against the bombing of Iran. It Tucker Carlson and others on the right, they seem to be the only one saying we're going to get sucked into a war of great powers in Russia, the same is not. I understand there are differences, that it was a B2 bomber, and it's just our F16 fighters, second generation, that we're giving to the Russians. But it seems more similar than not to assure a public that this can only lead to a morass and to a quagmire. And I think that's a little intellectually inconsistent, or am I kind of glossing over the huge differences between direct involvement and arming a friend? Corrine?
- [47:37]
Karine Hajar
I mean, I just think that there are a lot of loud, alarmist voices on the right right now about any type of conflict. But at the end of the day, like, I'm of the school of thought that if you don't deter. I mean, like, there are a lot of Republicans right now who genuinely think, like, we can turn inwardly and we can work on all of our own problems, and nobody else is going to bug us, and nobody else is going to do anything that threatens us. And meanwhile, we have our adversaries speaking loud and clear about and very graphically, if you're talking about the Iranian military and Supreme Leader about how they are going to bring us grave harm. And so I think it's, you know, it's funny because you're seeing there are, there are Republicans that have really held the line on that and who's who take our adversaries seriously. And I think, like, you see that most clearly on how we're dealing with Iran. But it does seem like Trump is sort of waking up to that with Putin again. I mean, like, I, I think he realizes that you cannot schmooze him out of a war, and you don't just call him nice and get your Nobel Peace Prize. So hopefully, I just, like, hope this is a reckoning point for, for Trump on Russia.
- [48:41]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, well, Steve Witkoff, he will, I think.
- [48:44]
Jeff Maurer
Can I ask.
- [48:44]
Mike Pesca
Go ahead, Jeff.
- [48:45]
Jeff Maurer
I don't, I don't mean to hijack the podcast, Mike, but did either of you see that video that Tulsi Gabbard made about nuclear annihilation? And did you see that?
- [48:55]
Karine Hajar
Yeah.
- [48:56]
Mike Pesca
No. No.
- [48:56]
Jeff Maurer
Tell me, did Kareem. Do you want to describe it or should I?
- [48:59]
Karine Hajar
I watched it many times. I want to hear you describe it.
- [49:03]
Jeff Maurer
Okay, but I could. I can see in your eyes that it made an impact on you. So. And if you watched it several times, it registered. Okay, so Tulsi Gabbard, you know, our distinguished Director of National Intelligence, as we all knew she would be one day went to Japan and discovered that apparently getting a nuclear bomb dropped on you is bad. So she made a YouTube video to alert the world of this. And Karine, I'd be interested to hear what you thought. I struck this as the not so subtle Russian talking point of hey, leave us alone in Ukraine, cuz, you know, if this goes badly, it could go nuclear and that's not gonna be good for you. Cuz there was this elaborate discussion of how it would all go down in the United States. Again, we're having it be explained to us like, oh, I guess if a nuclear bomb was dropped on me, it would be bad. It was not the most essential information, which makes me wonder, okay, then what's being done in this video? And I think what's being done is we're being threatened. Our Director of National Intelligence, who I'll go ahead and sound like a conspiracy theorist. I think here, I'm not afraid. They got something on Tulsi, okay? I have no proof. Blah, blah, blah, lawyers, lawyers, lawyers, whatever. They got something on Tulsi. So this is them putting their message through Tulsi, Hey, Leo salon. Because it could go nuclear and that could be real bad. Did you pick that up as well, Karine?
- [50:24]
Karine Hajar
I think like.
- [50:25]
Mike Pesca
So was she giving that? I'm the host now. Was that what she was giving?
- [50:30]
Karine Hajar
I think. Well, I think the first thing that it was giving is you're like sort of under. You're sort of like undermining. I mean, this is the Director of National Intelligence. This is not like, this is not like a daily wire show where you can say she's putting out for. I mean like what she's doing is putting out foreign policy.
- [50:49]
Mike Pesca
It's not louder with Crowder, mostly with Tulsi. Exactly.
- [50:52]
Jeff Maurer
You're right, Karine, that I did not even begin to scratch the surface. Surface with all the ways that this is weird.
- [50:56]
Karine Hajar
But yeah, I think it's weird and I think it speaks to again, like we're talking about Hegseth stopping weapon shipments to Ukraine. Like this is disorderly. She should not be speak. Just like at the most basic level should not be speaking about nuclear weapons. But at the strategic level, nuclear weapons exist now and us stepping back and saying, well, let's let country. I mean, maybe Russia or Iran could drop a nuke, but the best thing to do would be to let them take over their regions and get as much power and people and economic windfall from that as possible. And they still are going to have nuclear weapons. So it's not a cogent strategy whatsoever. Like we should be speaking strength and maintaining strength and making it clear to them that there are consequences for crossing red lines, not telling them we hate nuclear weapons. So go ahead and do whatever you want in Ukraine. I mean, it's, it's absurd.
- [51:50]
Mike Pesca
All right, now we come to the time where we talk about things that annoy us, since mostly it was things like Vladimir Putin, ice crackdown, Zoran Mamdani's font, things that thrilled us. Who wants to go first? Who wants to bring a goat grinder to the table? Jeff, you have one?
- [52:06]
Jeff Maurer
I'll take this one. Sure. And it's. I know people have heard this a lot of other places before, but sawdust, and specifically our national sawdust dialogue is annoying me a lot. People who list my podcast and read my blog know that my. The thing I do with my spare time is renovations. I have recently bought the worst house in Maryland and I am renovating it and I am presently redoing the floors. And there's a lot to know about that. And I, you know, I need to, I've done it before, but I gotta check in with, you know, YouTube videos and everything and everything you see on that has anything to do with sawdust creation. Of course, sanding a floor does a lot of that. The warnings about explosive sawdust, they warn you every 30 seconds. Be aware, sawdust can spontaneously combust. They're not warning you of it being a fire hazard, which obviously it is because it's ground up trees at the end of the day. But they're saying it can spontaneously combust, which of course it can, but it can under the most uncommon extreme circumstances. You typically have to have a lot of it like this happens in, in sawmills, in places like that and under extreme temperatures. And what can. If you have a lot of moisture, microbes can grow and create a chemical reaction. So yes, it can just combust, but they make it sound like it's. You have a little bit of sawdust, get away from it, run. It's like a grenade with no pin in it. It's going to blow any minute now. And it's annoying. It's not just annoying, but there's, there's something to this, because I feel that we're in. We were so used to just getting these warnings, these lawyer driven warnings about the worst thing that could happen is just keeping us from communicating in a real way about information. You need to know. Because a sane way to say that would be, well, something similar to what I just said. It's like, look, yes, sawdust can spontaneously combust, but you typically have to have an enormous amount in really specific conditions. But if you wanted to say that the lawyer for a Home Depot would run in the room and go, no, no. You have to make them afraid at all times. They have to be terrified of sawdust. And I think that just makes our lives more opaque and more annoying in a whole lot of ways. And I wish we could just talk to ourselves, each other, like humans.
- [54:22]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. Similarly, the Nagliera Fowleri, which is that tiny amoeba that could get in your nose if you live in a rural area.
- [54:32]
Jeff Maurer
Yeah.
- [54:32]
Mike Pesca
So if you do nasal irrigation, you're advised to use distilled water. Because. Because in 1999, a lady in North Carolina did die. My wife is terribly, terribly afraid. And I try to tell her the statistics.
- [54:44]
Jeff Maurer
Yeah.
- [54:44]
Mike Pesca
She won't listen.
- [54:45]
Jeff Maurer
Or that distilled water. I hope. I hope I'm not getting too blue for the podcast here. Or that little fish that can swim if your dick hole. There's that. I have heard so much about that little fishing swim your dick hole. I was in Peace Corps. Like, they never stopped talking about that little fishing swim your dick hole. I don't. I don't know. Did it ever happen? Thankfully, it didn't happen to me, but did happen to me because I was terrified to go in water the entire time because of that goddamn fish.
- [55:04]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [55:05]
Jeff Maurer
And I'm. And everyone else was or should have been, even though I don't even know if that's real. But you hear about it.
- [55:11]
Mike Pesca
Meanwhile, where you were based in Djibouti, sawdust explosions left and right, left and right.
- [55:15]
Jeff Maurer
Yeah. Not enough. Not enough warnings.
- [55:20]
Mike Pesca
Karina, what is your go grinder?
- [55:24]
Karine Hajar
So it's been really hot in New York and I keep getting emails from the energy provider or whatever that are saying, like. Like we want everyone to stay cool. Like, let's prioritize the way we use our electricity. The only thing that. In lower Manhattan, the basically the only thing you use your electricity on is your small window AC unit. And I keep getting. I keep getting angry emails about it, but lower Manhattan is not known for accommodating energy intensive appliances in these apartments. So I am sweating and angry in New York.
- [56:00]
Mike Pesca
That's good. May I recommend a sawdust bath?
- [56:04]
Jeff Maurer
No, no, Mike, it's deadly.
- [56:07]
Mike Pesca
Wait, am I not gonna blow her.
- [56:09]
Jeff Maurer
Apartment building sky high? But the liability you just took on.
- [56:12]
Mike Pesca
By saying that the guy in the orange. The orange apron was like, how about it? And then here, rinse your nose out afterwards. My go grinder is of course, the sugar cane toad. Cane toads. You know why they're my go grinder. They basically destroyed Australia. They were imported to kill a fly, but they have toxins powerful enough to kill cats, dogs.
- [56:36]
Jeff Maurer
Like. I would argue that Australians destroyed Australia, but continue.
- [56:40]
Mike Pesca
Yes, this was just the very vector of their destruction.
- [56:43]
Jeff Maurer
Of course, you got that many Australians, there's no coming back. But that's just my opinion. You go ahead.
- [56:47]
Mike Pesca
That's. That's why. Yeah. Penal colony. No more More. Now they've been freed to be abused by Jeff Maurer. So this is not why I'm annoyed at the cane toad. I'm annoyed at the cane toad of the lesson that it's become or the misapplied lesson that it's become. Because enough people know about the cane toad. Because I guess the Australians are doing a good job of distracting them from their inherent unworthiness as a people and they slough it all onto the toad. But enough people know about the lesson of the cane toad, which means don't introduce a foreign being into your ecosystem, even to kill a fly. But this is wrong. This is totally wrong. The good version of this goes on all the time and shouldn't be trusted by, you know, former penal colony residents in a backwater that was once seen as antipodal. The ash white fly. You ever hear of it? It's a scourge in Southern California in the 1990s. And no, you haven't heard of it. And that is because they found a predator, a kind of beetle type thing that eats the fly. And I'm not going to do the whole song, but it worked. It worked. And no poodles were killed in the process. So now we have a lantern fly. And there is some debate how to get rid of the lantern fly. Also some debate. We'll talk about this on the show with Sadie Dingfelder in a Is that bullshit segment. Some debate about how bad they really are, but from what I understand, they're going to destroy a lot of wine crops and there is some good bioengineering where they're looking to import predators for the lanternfly. And there are all these sorts of people who are saying, no, this can't work. No, you're messing with nature. Only it has worked, has worked so many times, we don't know when it works. This is the problem with progress. When it works, we don't know about the ash white fly. And when it doesn't work, it's all cane toads, you killing your poodle and possibly your resident of Brisbane. All right, that is it for today's show. Our guests have been Jeff Maurer and Karine Hajar. Thank you guys so much.
- [58:51]
Karine Hajar
Thank you.
- [58:52]
Jeff Maurer
Thanks, Mike.
- [58:53]
Mike Pesca
We're not saying we're right. We're not saying you're right. But we are saying we're not even mad. And that's it for today's show. Corey Warr is the producer of the gist and Astra Green runs our social media. And Kathleen Sykes, she does the gist list. And Ashley Khan, she's the production coordinator. And Michelle Pesca, she does it all. Plus always shaking that magic eight ball to try to get what she wants. Leo Baums, the intern who Peru G Peru Dupre. Thanks for listening.
- [59:30]
D
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