The Gist — Nicholas Wright: When Ancient Brains Meet Modern War

Date: December 18, 2025 | Host: Mike Pesca | Guest: Dr. Nicholas Wright

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca interviews Dr. Nicholas Wright—neuroscientist, military advisor, and author of Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain. The discussion delves into how the ancient, un-evolved human brain copes with and helps shape modern warfare, touching on group identity, vengeance, deterrence, and the strategic and psychological dynamics that underpin contemporary conflict. Pesca and Wright connect academic neuroscience to present-day military and geopolitical challenges, including Israel-Gaza, Ukraine, and America’s global posture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Puns Work: A Brain’s Taste for Surprise

• Surprise and Multiple Meanings: Wright explains that puns captivate us because they engage multiple meanings, fostering surprise—an essential way our brain pays attention.
  • “A lot of what makes things interesting is surprise. So when you have a pun…it opens up multiple meanings and surprise is a key way that all of us have our attention drawn…” — Nicholas Wright [07:44]
• Brain Integration: Jokes and puns are understood through the interaction and integration of specialized areas in the brain for language, hearing, and vision.

2. Has War Changed as Our Brains Remain the Same?

• Nature vs. Character of War: Wright distinguishes between the unchanging “nature” of war (political violence at scale) and its ever-shifting “character,” influenced by technology and societal structure.
  • “The nature doesn't change, but the character will change, for example, with technology…with different ways we organize our societies.” — Nicholas Wright [09:35]
• Ancient Brains, Modern Contexts: Our brains haven't changed fundamentally since ancient times, but the way societies wage war has—due to technological, cultural, and political evolution.

3. Identity, Culture, and Collective Action in War

• Group Identity: Only humans can build vast, coherent groups beyond hundreds. Identity (national, cultural, political) and shared culture form a “spiral,” enabling modern states and collective defense.
  • “Identities help form the cultures and cultures help form the identities and they spiral together…” — Nicholas Wright [13:30]
• Shared Response to Attack: Even peripheral or distant individuals (a “kid in Spokane, Washington,” for instance) can feel called to action due to this deep-seated sense of group identity.

4. The Israeli Response to October 7 and the Neuroscience of Vengeance

• Shock as a Weapon: Hamas engineered surprise and shock—not as a byproduct, but deliberately—to invoke an overwhelming, predictable response.
  • “What Hamas did…they deliberately, for a couple of years…kept things calm, so that then when they unleashed the mayhem…their surprise and creativity…increased the shock…” — Nicholas Wright [17:09]
• Revenge vs. Metacognition: While automatic revenge is wired deeply, humans also possess metacognition (thinking about thinking), primarily via the frontal pole, allowing for self-reflection and possible restraint.
  • “We also have a part of the brain…called the frontal pole…can do something called metacognition…So now what we can do is we can reflect.” — Nicholas Wright [17:57]

5. Deterrence, Magnanimity, and Historical Lessons

• Magnanimity in Victory: Reflecting on Churchill, Wright emphasizes the importance of restraint and generosity post-victory.
  • “At the very beginning of [Churchill's] multi-volume history is…the key moral…in victory, magnanimity.” — Nicholas Wright [19:36]
• Deterrence Works—but Wisely: True security requires balancing military capability and the wisdom to know when to use it; the best outcomes mix deterrence with the hope and pursuit of peace.

6. Loss Aversion, Winning, and the American Psyche

• American Loss Aversion: As the world’s predominant power, the U.S. is extremely loss-averse—justifiably so, says Wright, given how much is at stake.
  • “You do have when you’re number one…you have a lot more to lose than everybody else…It’s a reasonably rational way to operate…” — Nicholas Wright [31:32]
• Counterinsurgency and Patience: Most post-WWII counterinsurgencies failed due to lack of integrating political and military strategies and insufficient patience—true change, especially cultural, takes years.
• Redefining Success: The U.S. may not win every “battle,” but if the broader strategic objective (like winning the Cold War) is met, that constitutes ultimate success.
  • “Our brains are hierarchical and our strategies for operating in the world are always going to be hierarchical.” — Nicholas Wright [42:23]

7. The Power and Limits of Deterrence

• Does Punishment Deter? Pesca challenges the notion that overwhelming punishment stops further aggression, wondering aloud, “Does anyone ever draw that conclusion? You never hear that. They do.” [44:21]
• Germany and Japan’s Transformation: Both became peaceful, prosperous societies post-WWII, partly from massive defeat and the fear that remains, but also due to integration into global trade—deterrence has its place.
• Policing and Deterrence: The mere belief that you’ll be punished suffices to shape behavior, mirroring the function of police and nuclear standoffs.

8. Leadership Matters

• Individual Agency: The example of Anwar Sadat’s surprise overture to Israel and Zelensky’s defiance in Ukraine both illustrate the outsized impact of individual leaders on war’s course.
  • “Leaders matter. To give you another example…Vladimir Zelensky…he stayed. He was a brave guy. He was a very skilled politician, and he actually did a pretty good job…” — Nicholas Wright [37:18]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Human Brain in Conflict:
  “We have an orchestra of systems in our brains…All of those parts are needed for us to flourish.” — Nicholas Wright [21:21]

• On War and Human Progress:
  “Alongside the spiraling up of our ability to give ourselves nice things is also a spiral by which the capacity we have to destroy ourselves also increases. An example is nuclear weapons…” — Nicholas Wright [11:44]

• On Winning and Purpose:
  “I guess the question would be, what would America have got by winning those wars?...They weren't that important…That was never existential for the United States…” — Nicholas Wright [41:09]

• On Strategic Hierarchies:
  “Our brains are hierarchical and our strategies…are always going to be hierarchical.” — Nicholas Wright [42:23]

• On Deterrence:
  “The whole central thing is deterrence and deterrence does work just as, for example, during the Cold War. We didn’t have a gigantic war partly because there was nuclear deterrence…” — Nicholas Wright [46:29]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Puns and Brain Surprise Mechanisms — [07:36]–[09:10]
• Nature/Character of War & Human Brains — [09:10]–[10:47]
• Identity, Culture, and Group Action — [12:59]–[16:00]
• Israeli Response & Metacognition — [16:00]–[20:40]
• Deterrence, Magnanimity, and Historical Parallels — [19:42]–[25:09]
• American Loss Aversion and Counterinsurgency — [30:29]–[34:49]
• Analysis: Polarization, Occupation, and True Commitment — [34:49]–[38:39]
• Ukraine, Leadership, and Incentives — [38:39]–[40:41]
• US “Not Winning” Wars: Meaning and Implications — [40:41]–[44:21]
• Deterrence: Does Punishment Work? — [44:21]–[46:45]

Episode Tone and Style

Thoughtful, analytic, and sometimes wryly humorous—Pesca’s style is “responsibly provocative,” and Wright blends empirical neuroscience with candid, accessible commentary on current affairs and historical lessons. The talk moves fluidly between brain science, policy, and the headlines, in language that is conversational but deeply informed.

Summary

This episode provides a uniquely interdisciplinary look at war—anchored in neuroscience, animated by historical and current examples, and attuned to the messy realities of human nature and modern conflict. Dr. Nicholas Wright argues that war’s fundamentals are immutable, but technology, politics, and culture change its outward forms. Group identity, surprise, revenge, and wise restraint all have roots in how the brain works and are key to understanding events from Gaza to Ukraine to the Pentagon. Listeners are left with new insight into why collective violence persists, how societies can sometimes choose peace, and why self-reflection—individually and as a polity—may be the most essential “weapon” of all.