The Gist - “No Capes, Real Peace: U Thant’s UN and What We Lost”

Podcast: The Gist
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Episode: No Capes, Real Peace: U Thant's UN and What We Lost
Date: October 23, 2025
Guest: Thant Myint-U (U Thant’s grandson, historian, author)

Episode Overview

This episode juxtaposes the fantasy of modern superhero movies with the real-world legacy of U Thant, the once little-known but consequential Secretary General of the United Nations. Mike Pesca discusses the recent biography Peacemaker: U Thant and the Forgotten Quest for a Just World with its author (and U Thant's grandson), Thant Myint-U. The conversation explores U Thant’s personal history, diplomatic triumphs and challenges, and the evolution—and perceived decline—of the UN’s role since his era.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Mike Pesca Rejects Superheroes (01:00–11:45)

• Pesca’s Case Against Superhero Movies:
  • Critiques the genre’s current commercial bloat and lack of narrative stakes.
  • Misses when superhero stories had “human stakes” or cleverness, e.g., Guardians of the Galaxy, early Spider-Man films.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • “What superhero movies have become are exercises in getting you to watch more superhero movies. The IP exists to sell other IP and what was once a fresh story... now it’s all just a coming attraction.” (04:00)
  • “They say not all heroes wear capes. For at least the foreseeable future, none of mine will.” (11:30)

2. Introducing the Real ‘Peacemaker’: U Thant (11:45–12:20)

• Pesca leads into the main topic: real-world heroism found in diplomacy, introducing U Thant, the subject of a new biography by his grandson, Thant Myint-U.

3. Thant Myint-U Discusses U Thant’s Early Days (12:22–15:41)

• Family & Early Impressions:
  • Thant Myint-U shares personal memories of his grandfather—hosting world leaders, meeting the Apollo 11 astronauts, recalling U Thant as a gentle patriarch.
  • Explains Burmese naming conventions—“U” is an honorific, not a family name.

4. U Thant’s Ascension to Secretary General (15:00–19:15)

• U Thant became Secretary General after the death of Dag Hammarskjöld, in a turbulent Cold War context.
• He was a consensus choice:
  • Supported by both the superpowers and newly independent “Afro-Asian” states.
  • First Asian, first non-European Secretary General.
  • Chosen partly because of Burma’s non-aligned, bridge-building reputation.

5. The UN’s Role and Thant’s Diplomacy Record (19:33–26:00)

• Success Stories:
  • India–Pakistan War of 1965: U Thant’s personal mediation and timely intervention, ultimatum threats in Security Council, and boots-on-the-ground peacekeepers.
    • “He gained the trust of both sides. So they both saw him as an honest broker and neutral arbiter.” (21:41)
  • Emphasizes that many significant UN interventions—such as in Congo and Biafra—are little-remembered today, though millions may have benefited.
• The Limits of Power:
  • The UN’s actual stick was often just moral suasion and consensus-building, not force—yet its authority and cachet were high during U Thant’s era.

6. Why Did the UN Lose Its Magic? (26:00–33:00)

• The 1950s–60s UN enjoyed public enthusiasm and global respect, partly from leaders traumatized by world wars.
• Three Factors in the UN’s Decline (per Thant Myint-U):
  • Loss of collective postwar idealism and public support.
  • Member states used the UN cynically; victories under-credited, failures overblown.
  • Pivotal ambitions in the ‘60s–‘70s quietly undercut by shifting international priorities and disillusionment (e.g., Vietnam, funding disputes).
• “Maybe it's three things... First, the men and women of that time... really believed something else had to be tried. Second... no political investment—the UN [is] used cynically. Third... the ‘60s and early ‘70s, the story of him, the story of what happened around Vietnam... that was pivotal.” (26:36)

7. Debating UN Idealism vs. Realism (28:11–31:36)

• Is the UN’s decline simply reality defeating idealism?
  • Thant Myint-U suggests realism might have involved using the UN more (“...in 1963, 1964 after the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy embraced the UN... Then Vietnam happened.” 28:58).
  • The US could have “extricated itself” from Vietnam via the UN, arguably saving countless lives.

8. The UN as Debate Society vs. Enforcer (31:36–40:00)

• Evolving Purpose:
  • The UN’s forum function helped legitimize newly independent states, giving them a seat at the table.
  • Over time, the UN became more “talk shop,” with less practical power, especially for the West whose primary interests moved elsewhere.
  • Thant Myint-U: The UN shouldn’t just be a “donor delivery mechanism;” it was meant as a collective security mechanism.

9. Is the UN’s Morality Capped by Its Members? (40:02–41:27)

• Debate over whether the UN can be more moral than the sum of its member states.
  • Thant Myint-U: No—the UN’s culture, legal architecture, and aspirations can (and do) transcend mere national interest at times, but recent decades have failed these aspirations.
  • “The UN is built on this fundamental aspiration that we have to do things differently than has been done throughout human history.” (40:20)

10. Burma/Myanmar: Hopes and Pain (41:27–44:31)

• Pesca: Why is Myanmar so tragic and stuck?
• Thant Myint-U:
  • Not just bad luck; deep legacies of colonialism, post-Independence missteps, military takeover, and civil war—compounded by foreign intervention.
  • “It could have turned around, but… it hasn't, sadly, so far.” (43:53)
  • Personal note: He narrowly avoided being in-country during the coup due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

11. Researching U Thant: New Revelations and Archival Finds (44:31–46:36)

• Access to rare materials:
  • Myint-U’s family archive, previously unseen correspondence (Jackie Kennedy, Bertrand Russell), and confidential documents on major Cold War crises.
  • Role of U Thant in the Cuban Missile Crisis broader than commonly told; mediated between superpowers.
  • “In none of these movies do you see a Burmese mediator shuttling between the two sides and finding room for compromise.” (45:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Pesca on Superheroes:
  • “Superheroes don’t exist, and powers can’t help us. I can get genuine stakes in literally every genre that’s not a superhero movie.” (10:29)
• Thant Myint-U, on U Thant’s reputation:
  • “He gained the trust of both sides. So they both saw him as an honest broker and neutral arbiter.” (21:41)
• Thant Myint-U, on the UN’s original purpose:
  • “The UN was set up as a collective security mechanism. It was meant to help all the countries in the world, including the US and others, prevent a third world war. That was its intent.” (39:08)
• Thant Myint-U on Idealism vs. Realism:
  • “…in 1963, 1964 after the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy embraced the UN... Then Vietnam happened.” (28:58)
• On researching his grandfather:
  • “I came across a whole box of letters from Jackie Kennedy, for example… and more importantly… secret documents related to the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, Six Day War, all these things.” (44:37)
• On U Thant’s invisible impact:
  • “In none of these movies do you see a Burmese mediator shuttling between the two sides and finding room for compromise.” (45:38)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:00–11:45: Pesca’s anti-superhero monologue
• 12:22: Thant Myint-U joins the interview
• 15:00–19:15: The drama of U Thant's selection as UN Secretary General
• 20:22–23:42: U Thant’s major diplomatic successes
• 26:00–33:00: Why the UN lost public trust and idealism
• 34:17: Interview resumes post-break, focus on decolonization and colonialism in UN & global discourse
• 38:27–41:27: What the UN was for, and how its actual use diverged from its founding ambitions
• 41:27–44:31: Myanmar’s tragedies and personal consequences for Thant Myint-U
• 44:31–46:36: Archival revelations—U Thant’s deeper legacy
• 46:36–end: Closing thanks

Tone and Style

Pesca’s tone remains witty, skeptical, but ultimately respectful, hovering between cultural critique (the superhero opening) and earnest curiosity during the substantive historical conversation. Thant Myint-U is measured, reflective, and draws on both scholarship and deeply personal experience.

For Listeners New to the Topic

• This episode offers:
  • A compelling primer on U Thant’s overlooked historical significance
  • Insights into the evolution of the UN
  • Discussion of international idealism vs. realpolitik
  • Reflections on post-colonial history and global governance
• Why listen:
  • Reframes “heroism,” championing the real, sometimes invisible, coalition-building peacemakers of recent history over costumed mythology.
  • Provides a rare, intimate perspective on the life and times of a consequential but forgotten world leader.