The Gist: Not Even Mad (Charles Lehman & Brad Carson) – Nov 13, 2025

Overview

In this special "Not Even Mad" crossover episode, host Mike Pesca explores the intersection of American politics, culture, and ethical dilemmas with guests Brad Carson (President, Americans for Responsible Innovation; former congressman and university president) and Charles Fain Lehman (Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, Senior Editor at City Journal). The trio debates everything from government shutdown fallout and the tactical value of political issues, to generational malaise and the regulation of vices like gambling, marijuana, and AI—without ever losing their "responsibly provocative" tone.

Main Topic Breakdown & Key Discussions

1. Media Ethics and Fame in Journalism

• Pesca opens reflecting on the leak of Jeffrey Epstein files, which implicated high-profile journalists like Michael Wolfe in ethically questionable conduct:
  • Success in journalism today is often correlated with unethical behavior, unlike artists or business leaders. "You can't reach the very heights of journalism...without getting quite a bit unethical." (04:45)
• He laments the shift from figures like Woodward and Wallace to the likes of Tucker Carlson, blurring the lines between journalism and performance.

2. Government Shutdown: Who Won and Why?

[Start: 11:24]

• Pesca tosses out a provocative headline: "After this shutdown, surrender, Chuck Schumer needs to go."
• Lehman and Carson dissect the tactic and political fallout.
  • Lehman: "The whole thing is a Hail Mary on their part...their base is incredibly mad at us for not doing anything and not resisting with all the power that we don't have." (12:15)
  • Carson: "Democrats often lack strategy in all aspects...they could have held out, but when you recognize...you're not going to be able to hold your caucus together...starting the government shutdown is an ineffective strategy." (13:45)
• Both agree the immediate public inconvenience did elevate the issue of healthcare affordability (14:37), but see little long-term political cost.

3. The Value (or Folly) of Solving Issues in Politics

[15:41]

• Pesca wonders aloud if solving political issues is a disadvantage for politicians: "If you ever solve a political issue as a politician, are you doing yourself a disservice...?"
• Lehman: Sees this dynamic with Trump and border policy: "He did it, he won, he got what he wanted, and as a result, voters don't care anymore." (15:41)
• The panel muses about the possible strategic importance (and hidden risks) of the filibuster.

4. 2026 Elections, Data Centers, and the Policy-Primary Nexus

[18:50]

• Carson: Predicts that the shutdown will be forgotten by 2026, but spots "data centers" as an emerging Democratic talking point: "There's a lot of concern out there on the ground about electricity prices, about water usage..." (18:55)
• Lehman: The shutdown's real impact might be on party primaries, not the general: "It could have a meaningful impact on primary decision making and how the base...think about who they're going to put up..." (19:51)
• Carson: Brings up the personal political calculus, e.g., New Hampshire's Shaheen family navigating shutdown blowback (21:34).

5. Centrism, Vibes, and Intergenerational Discord on the Left

[22:11]

• Pesca & guests discuss the difficulty of establishing "sexy centrism" in the Democratic Party, with Lehman arguing that generational, ideological, and insider-outsider divides all "cluster together." (23:30)

6. Gen Z Malaise and the 'Affordability Crisis'

[25:03]

• Carson supports the view that spiritual/cultural malaise -- "a sense of ennui" -- eclipses purely material concerns: "
  • "There's obviously a real affordability crisis...But the broader kind of malaise...reflects something far deeper than I can't afford a house." (26:11)
• Lehman: Argues that while Americans are materially better off, "the opportunity cost of switching from single to married, of starting a family, is so much higher than it used to be." (27:31)
• The group debates how much life-stage delay is policy-driven vs. cultural.

7. Culture vs. Policy: Are Political Problems Now Cultural or Solvable?

[32:40]

• Carson: Most societal changes stem from "broader problems of modernity" dating back decades. "Politicians can describe them, but they elude a politician's control." (31:32)
• Lehman: Pushes back—some crises, like housing and energy, are driven by bad policy and could be solved ("We could produce way more housing in the United States...That's largely a regulatory issue." [34:06])

8. The Persistence and Evolution of Culture Wars

[36:12]

• Carson: "The culture wars have always been with us over the last 50-60 years, and they're just manifesting in slightly different ways today." (36:38)
• Lehman: Suggests that as the US gets richer, "cultural issues raise in their relative salience… effective cudgels because they are sort of the thing that remains on the table." (37:40)
• On issues like same-sex marriage and marijuana, the group probes how "consensus" can hide persistent divides and even reversal in public opinion.

9. Regulating Vices: Gambling, Drugs, and AI

[44:11]

• Sports gambling scandals have exploded. Lehman: "I do think there's a backlash coming...We need to get rid of these player-specific prop bets. You really shouldn't be able to bet on whether somebody is going to throw a specific ball or strike. That's crazy..." (45:17)
• On AI, Carson: "We don’t have to accept a deterministic future. We can control it… [but] there's a lot more money...propping up the entire American, perhaps global economy." (47:27, 54:51)
• The group connects high friction (difficulty accessing vices) with harm reduction. "There should be some friction. It shouldn't just be that accessible to every single person." - Carson (48:18)

10. Can We Learn from Experience? Can Regulation Work?

[50:33]

• Lehman: Success and failure in regulating vices follows a cycle of relaxing and rebanning as harms become apparent: "The iron law...is that we do swing back and forth between those two excesses..." (50:33)
• Both doubt our ability to regulate perfectly, but see promise in dumb/simple bans (cigarettes/alcohol models discussed).

11. Goat Grinders (Pet Peeves Segment)

[60:06]

• Pesca borrows a friend’s peeve: confused use of "EST" for event times.
• Carson: "I consider it immoral to recline your seat in coach class."
• Lehman: Unleashed dogs: "Your dog could eat my child. I'm not happy about that situation…"

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mike Pesca (on journalism):

  • "You can achieve great levels of success, influence and acclaim and be ethical in most professions except journalism." – [04:34]

• Brad Carson (on Democratic strategy):

  • "You will then have to defect. Right. You should know that probably even starting the government shutdown is an ineffective strategy." – [13:45]

• Charles Fain Lehman (on political incentives):

  • "If you ever solve a political issue as a politician, are you actually doing yourself a disservice in terms of future elections?" – [15:41]
  • "The iron law of the history of vicious substances...is that we do swing back and forth between those two excesses." – [50:33]

• On generational malaise:

  • "The reason people are living in their mom's basement gooning is not because they can't afford a place. There are other options than that." – Carson [26:11]

• On regulating vices:

  • "The virtue of just saying this is banned...is that it's simple and it's dumb, and it's relatively hard to get wrong because it's simple and dumb." – Lehman [53:11]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:04] – Epstein files & media ethics
• [10:34] – Introductions & humor
• [11:24] – Shutdown: who won, who caved & debate on tactics
• [15:41] – Political value of not solving issues
• [18:50] – 2026 impact & emerging topics like data centers
• [22:11] – Discussion on centrism, generational divides
• [25:03] – Generational malaise, affordability crisis
• [32:40] – Policy vs. cultural problems
• [36:12] – Culture wars, social consensus, shifting issues
• [44:11] – Gambling, AI, and regulating vices
• [50:33] – The cyclical nature of regulation, regulatory pessimism
• [60:06] – Goat grinders: pet peeve segment

Conclusion

Pesca, Lehman, and Carson traverse American politics from legislative tactics to the malaise of modernity and the ethics of regulation with insight and humor. Whether parsing the purpose of the shutdown, warning about the downstream effects of innovation and deregulation, or commiserating about the perils of airline seat reclining, they offer a robust, thought-provoking but never dogmatic discussion—true to the “Not Even Mad” spirit.