The Gist – "Not Even Mad: Jonah Goldberg & Zee Cohen-Sanchez"
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Guests: Jonah Goldberg (Editor in Chief, The Dispatch), Z. Cohen Sanchez (Founder, Soul Strategies & Unfuck America Tour)
Overview
In this "Not Even Mad" installment of The Gist, Mike Pesca is joined by Jonah Goldberg and Z Cohen Sanchez for wide-ranging, spirited, and insightful discussion covering three headline issues:
- The current government shutdown: its impact, political optics, and a debate on blame.
- The recent surprise Hamas hostage deal and its domestic and international ramifications.
- The “Trump autocracy” question: analysis of Donald Trump’s unusual style, questions of consolidation of power, and what it means for American democracy.
Throughout, the trio mixes analysis, political humor, personal anecdotes, and pointed exchange—living up to their reputation for “refutation, not rage.”
“We promise to uphold our reputation for refutation—because we are not even mad.”
—Mike Pesca [06:30]
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Government Shutdown: Impact & Blame (08:32–30:14)
- Perception and Reality: Is This a Big Deal?
- Mike Pesca: The shutdown has little visible impact outside of DC and select federal employees. In New York, “there seems to be not much going on except a few key people in the government are very upset with each other.” [08:32]
- Jonah Goldberg: Little on-the-ground effect in DC beyond “slightly better” traffic; pundit class exhausted by constant shutdown politics. “I think it’s bad. I think it’s a sign of dysfunction...but they don’t save money because people get repaid...and everybody’s a hypocrite.” [09:21]
- Z. Cohen Sanchez: For Nevada and other rural/less-populated areas, the effects are more dire—Medicaid and healthcare at risk, rural hospitals on brink of closure, and depressed local economies. “It’s hard to determine what was already happening vs. the shutdown.” [13:11]
- The Blame Game: Republicans, Democrats, or Both?
- Jonah Goldberg: Technical blame on Schumer (“he’s the guy; but for his maneuvering there wouldn’t be a shutdown”), but Republicans lose in polling due to “terrible messaging” and the “baseline assumption now that chaos is what Trump does.” [10:54][11:42]
- Pesca: Bad experiment to test whose fault it is since “it’s always been the Republicans.” [12:12]
- Zee: Nevada “hit hard just by Trump in general ... it’s hard to separate” new pain from old wounds.
- Will the Shutdown End Soon?
- Goldberg: Real consequences only build over time—flight delays, loss of federal services, military pay. "If one plane falls out of the sky, heaven forbid, changes the zeitgeist pretty dramatically." [17:09]
- Pesca & Z: Much depends on which party can claim to have “stood up” for voters (esp. on Obamacare, benefits). Shutdown pain could flip political advantages quickly.
- Messaging and High-Risk Political Calculus
- Zee: Dems may win blame game for now, but "every day that goes on is another day that's going to piss people off...regardless of which side of the aisle you’re on.” [19:43]
- Goldberg: Democrats gamble people forget the shutdown but remember who "fought to keep Obamacare premiums low." Trouble is Trump “doesn’t play by any conservative or traditional playbook.” [22:53]
- Pesca: Maybe the shutdown is just a “painful exercise in reminding Americans” of party priorities—Democrats for subsidies, Republicans against. [26:18]
“Time and time again, Trump will not behave like the kind of right-wing president I want him to be...he's much more of a squishy moderate on a lot of these issues. He just talks like a psychopath.”
—Jonah Goldberg [24:21]
2. Hamas Hostage Deal & Israel: Foreign Policy and Domestic Fallout (31:38–44:41)
- Trump’s Win, Political Optics, and Middle East “Peace”
- Pesca: Surprise and relief as all 20 hostages released, but notes brutality remains and “Hamas is going to Hamas.” [31:38]
- Goldberg: “Trump deserves a lot of credit for this.” His “bowl in a China shop style”—transactional, showy—strangely effective with Middle Eastern leaders, even if it doesn’t work in NATO or elsewhere. [32:50]
- “It’s a language they understand better in the Middle East...It has not worked great for him in NATO, in other places.” [33:12]
- Zee: Skeptical of long-term peace—“I don’t even think that we’re going to get to stage two of this deal if I’m being 100% honest.” [38:03]
- Both note shift: GOP and Democrats both have deepening divides on Israel.
- Will Israel Remain Central in U.S. Politics?
- Goldberg: “Most people in the middle...to the extent they’re not pro-Israel, just don’t want to talk about it...peace or the cessation of hostilities changes things.” [41:38][44:41]
- Pesca: “Passions of the moment could be subsumed by other interests;” perhaps issues fade like BLM did, or, “the left will never let Israel go” and it remains a front-burner issue. [40:05][45:02]
- Zee: “It’s changed dramatically,” among both left and right; notes role of right-wing influencers and “normal Republicans” tiring of strong Israel ties. [38:03]
- Notable Quotes
"When Arabs kill Arabs, it just doesn't make news. There’s just something about Israel that bothers a lot of people."
—Jonah Goldberg [33:07]
3. Trump Autocracy: Style, Substance, and Fears (44:41–59:18)
- Trump: Unorthodox Autocrat, or Just an Opportunist?
- Pesca: Many political scientists see Trump heading toward “competitive authoritarianism,” à la Orban or Erdogan, but with key differences: “He’s jumping straight to overt attempts at repression before he’s consolidated power. Why?” [45:02][47:07]
- Zee: Fears real authoritarian play, especially “the young guns around him” like Stephen Miller. Trump’s own laziness, legacy-defining bent, and lack of long-term plan may blunt this, but “I do think it’s going to get much, much worse.” [48:14][59:57]
- Goldberg: “He likes the aesthetics of fascism...but he’s lazy." Seeks headlines, not substance. Compares Trump to Juan Perón: "He wanted all of the aesthetics, he just didn't want to kill that many people." [50:39][52:07]
- Pesca: Even if Trump just wants headlines, that's dangerous when surrounded by “true believers” like Stephen Miller and Russell Vought.
“Our advantage with Trump is he’s lazy. He wants the shadow on the wall of Plato’s cave more than the reality.”
—Jonah Goldberg [52:07]
“I do fear the young guns around him...I think they have really horrifying intentions, and they are going to do anything they can.”
—Z. Cohen Sanchez [59:57]
- How Dangerous Is “Playing” Authoritarian?
- Goldberg: Normalization is itself bad—“It doesn’t matter if we get a full-blown authoritarian; playing authoritarian is bad.” [55:49]
- Cites the “boiling frog” strategy—incremental use of power, so the country doesn’t notice until suddenly norms are shattered.
- Engaging with the Other Side
- Pesca: Challenges Zee on her willingness to engage with figures like Charlie Kirk.
- Zee: Says most rank-and-file Republicans and even MAGA kids are not deep Trump believers; Democratic failure is lack of outreach and ground game. "If there was a Democrat they felt passionate about, I don't think changing their mind would be as difficult as people think." [61:26]
Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes
-
On Party Coalitions Changing:
“The coalitions that make up the two parties have kind of changed and neither party has really caught up yet.”
—Jonah Goldberg [24:23] -
On Trump’s Ambiguity:
“It's hard to pin the tail on that donkey when the donkey's made of Jell-O.”
—Mike Pesca [26:18] -
On Political Labeling:
“He’s not a moderate, he’s a chauvinistic populist.”
—Mike Pesca [25:54] -
On Political Fatigue:
“A lot of people simply resent having to talk about it [Israel] all the time.”
—Jonah Goldberg [41:38] -
On Democratic Outlook and Voter Registration:
“We are down in voter registration in every single state, even in blue states...the real issue is, they've [Republicans] put the footwork in and we just haven't.”
—Z. Cohen Sanchez [61:26]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 08:32 — Start of main content: Government shutdown discussion
- 13:11 — Z describes shutdown's impact in Nevada/rural communities
- 17:09 — Goldberg lays out potential future tipping points
- 19:43 — Z on high-risk strategy and shifting blame
- 24:21 — Goldberg on changing party coalitions & Trump’s approach to policy
- 31:38 — Analysis of Trump and the Hamas hostage deal
- 38:03 — Zee on fractures within both parties over Israel
- 44:41 — Goldberg discusses normalization of Israeli/Palestinian conflict coverage
- 47:07 — Trump autocracy analysis begins: strategy, playbook, and unique style
- 52:07 — Goldberg on Trump as "lazy" authoritarian, wants headlines more than action
- 55:49 — Normalizing "playing" authoritarian is dangerous in itself
- 61:26 — Z: Democratic Party's current weaknesses and need for renewed ground game
Show’s Signature “Goat Grinders” (63:05–69:50)
The closing segment features each guest venting about minor annoyances:
- Jonah: Corporate branding “busy work” (Apple TV, HBO rebranding) is a waste of time and resources.
- Zee: Steven Crowder appearing at college in a bulletproof vest—“As if anyone even knows who he is.” [65:52]
- Mike: Realization that childhood celebrities (e.g., Roy Orbison, Sanford & Son's Redd Foxx) were younger than he is now.
Tone & Style
Throughout, the discussion is “responsibly provocative”—challenging assumptions and ideologies with reason, humor, and sharpness, but rarely anger. The hosts and guests embrace complexity and self-awareness, trading jokes about American political dysfunction as readily as serious analysis of rising authoritarian threats and real-world consequences.
End of Summary
This detailed review captures the incisive, irreverent, and informed conversation at the heart of The Gist’s “Not Even Mad” episode—orienting newcomers to key arguments, notable exchanges, and the ongoing push-and-pull defining today’s politics.