The Gist — Not Even Mad: Michael A. Cohen and Jamie Kirchick

Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Guests: Michael A. Cohen (Truth and Consequences, MSNBC, 70s Movie Podcast), Jamie Kirchick (Secret City, Politico, NYT Opinion)

Episode Overview

This episode of "Not Even Mad," a recurring roundtable on The Gist, brings together Michael A. Cohen and Jamie Kirchick to unpack the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s assassination, rising political violence, media and elite responses, Trump administration excesses, and societal trends in outrage, free speech, and political discourse. The conversation—spirited, analytical, and at times sharp—tackles both right- and left-wing behavior, attempts to diagnose the health of America’s democracy, and explores the nature of public and media reactions to shocking events.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reactions to the Charlie Kirk Assassination

• The panel opens discussion on the shooting of Charlie Kirk, dissecting not only the facts but the rapid-fire public and media responses. All agree that the rush-to-judgment, especially on social media, has become deeply problematic.
• Jamie Kirchick decries online speculation and the temptation to offer takes before facts emerge:

  “People would just wait a little bit, you know, just wait until the facts emerge. But we can't do that anymore.” (09:43)

• Michael Cohen laments political hypocrisy and how quickly both sides politicized the event:

  “They hadn't even captured the suspect yet. And yet the President of the United States blaming the far left for this...” (11:17)

• Both guests critique President Trump's immediate weaponization of the tragedy to demonize political opponents.

2. Who Bears Responsibility for Political Violence?

• Cohen argues the right is far more culpable, not necessarily for isolated acts but for systematic delegitimization and incitement from the highest levels, unlike anything seen from Democratic leadership:

  “If you're blaming the left for a murder, you are contributing to an atmosphere of divisiveness, of hatred… and potentially violence.” (12:21)

• Kirchick acknowledges inflamed rhetoric on both sides and calls for distinctions between "atmosphere of hate" and direct blame:

  “There's a difference between saying that this rhetoric is contributing to an atmosphere of hate and pinning direct blame...” (15:08)

• Discussion addresses left-wing rhetoric, especially within trans activist circles, and the impact that language has on individuals and societal tensions.

3. Media, Free Speech, and Social Sanction

• On calls to police or shame reactions to Kirk’s death, the hosts warn about chilling effects:

  Kirchick: “I think it's a sign of an unhealthy society if... you're not allowed or your livelihood is taken away from you because you don't fall in line with what the mass of people are saying.” (24:03)

• The panel weighs the left’s sometimes callous obituaries with the outsized, chilling response by the right—especially official threats to media outlets (e.g., V.P. J.D. Vance targeting The Nation magazine's donors).

4. Gun Control, Second Amendment, and Societal Trade-Offs

• Kirk’s earlier statements about gun deaths being “a prudent deal” for the Second Amendment are dissected. Kirchick defends the logic:

  “Second Amendment supporters... view the Second Amendment as they do the First Amendment… [You] accept that there are negative consequences…” (29:40)

• Cohen emphasizes misuse of binary arguments on gun rights, noting real-world proposals rarely call for confiscation but rather for sensible regulation:

  “People like Kirk and others just make it out to being a binary between either you want to banish guns or you want to have no laws to restrict guns…” (32:48)

• Both agree Americans seem less shocked by violence now, with Cohen noting, “We are raising kids to sort of see this as just a part of life in America.” (38:02)

5. Labeling Trump: Fascist, Authoritarian, or... ?

• The question of “fascist” versus “authoritarian” is debated:

  Cohen: “I think he uses fascist language, but I think... I'm more comfortable saying authoritarian… He's not anti-Democratic.” (43:40) Kirchick: “To say that someone has authoritarian qualities... is a big difference to say that someone is a fascist.” (46:36)

• The panel recognizes that excessive labeling can lead to real-world violence but maintains that some analogies to past totalitarianism are apt regarding the veneration of figures like Ashli Babbitt.

6. Trump Administration's Norm-Breaking Actions

• Recent actions by Trump—proposed crackdowns on media, National Guard deployments to blue cities, targeting political enemies—are recounted as illustrative of “the obscene becoming normal” (Cohen, 49:47).
• Cohen blames not just Trump but the enabling by legislative and judicial branches:

  “Institutions are only as strong as those people who run those institutions… We are living in a time... there's a real chilling effect in this country.” (55:45)

• Kirchick highlights the real threat posed by weaponizing the DOJ and media lawsuits, rather than just rhetorical attacks.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Social Media Outrage Cycle:
  “This temptation to weigh in, to offer your take… Every little leak from law enforcement gets blown out of proportion…” — Jamie Kirchick (09:39)

• On Political Responsibility:
  “You had Democrats out there saying we condemn this and Republicans immediately blaming the left for it… just astonishing political hypocrisy…” — Michael Cohen (11:17)

• Linking Rhetoric to Violence:
  “Much of the rhetoric coming out of the transgender movement… is absolutely encouraging violence. To speak of a trans genocide is preposterous.” — Jamie Kirchick (15:08)

• On the Media Response:
  “The President of the United States is unbelievably powerful and unbelievably incendiary... there's no equivalent in terms of power, voice, anything else.” — Mike Pesca (17:47)

• Social Sanctions & Speech:
  “I think there should be lots of social shame attached to that. And frankly, I don't have a problem if schoolteachers who are, like, taking videos of themselves reveling in the death of someone… should be fired.” — Jamie Kirchick (22:21)

• Assessment of Kirk’s Legacy:
  “He did politics the wrong way… intended to divide people... demonize people. I think his death is a tragedy... But we should also be very clear as to who he was.” — Michael Cohen (19:41)

• Slippery Slope Reasoning:
  “They view gun control efforts as a slippery slope towards the total confiscation of all our guns. Now, you can view that as a crazy paranoid… but that is a deeply...sincere belief.” — Jamie Kirchick (35:27)

• Normalization of Abuses:
  “The biggest threat of Trump winning was that he would destroy political norms and... make the obscene seem normal. In this second term, it's just... on steroids.” — Michael Cohen (49:47)

Important Timestamps

• [08:01] — Charlie Kirk assassination: details and initial reactions
• [09:38] — Panelists on the media’s rush to judgment after political violence
• [13:13] — Statistical reality of right vs. left wing extremist violence
• [17:47] — Media discourse after Kirk’s death and the power imbalance
• [24:03] — Freedom of expression after the death of a controversial figure
• [29:40] — Kirk’s Second Amendment comments, trade-offs, and gun violence logic
• [43:09] — “Fascist” as label, and the effect of heightened rhetoric on political violence
• [49:47] — Trump administration’s norm-breaking actions, response, and the loss of outrage
• [55:45] — Chilling effects and fear of retribution in American institutions

Tone & Language

The conversation is pointed, pragmatic, and often darkly humorous. The panel is unsparing toward both left and right, but strikingly more alarmed by the actions and rhetoric of the current Trump administration. While strongly opinionated, the guests strive to delineate specifics (“criminal liability” vs. “atmosphere of hate”; “authoritarian” vs. “fascist”) and avoid false equivalence, only occasionally lapsing into meta-commentary on the futility or weariness of the genre.

Conclusion

This episode stands out for its candid assessment of the American political and media ecosystem. The participants lament society’s inability to process tragedy without instant politicization, worry about the metastasis of free speech threats across the spectrum, and urge listeners to keep distinguishing between justified critique and dangerous delegitimization. Examine this if you want a sobering, insightful look into the American culture war, the fragility of norms, and what realistic defenses democracy might have left.

For Further Listening

• [11:17] — Partisan blame and hypocrisy after violence
• [17:47] — The power of presidential rhetoric
• [29:40] — Gun control, rights, and trade-offs
• [43:40] — Political labeling and its consequences
• [49:47] — Trump’s norm-breaking: media, DOJ, National Guard deployments

Note: The episode contains ads at beginning and breaks, and ends with lighter “goat grinder”/pet peeve rants; core summary excludes these segments.