Not Even Mad - Zee Cohen-Sanchez and Jesse Adams

Summary

The Gist: "Not Even Mad" with Zee Cohen-Sanchez and Jesse Adams

Release Date: July 24, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca, Peach Fish Productions

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Introduction

Mike Pesca kicks off the episode by reminiscing about Hulkamania, drawing parallels between the wrestling phenomenon and current political dynamics. He introduces the theme of the day, "Not Even Mad," setting the stage for a deep dive into the intersections of politics, media, and public perception.

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Guests Introduction

• Zee Cohen-Sanchez

  • Role: Executive Director of National Ground Game and Founder of the UN Fuck America Tour.
  • Background: Former Bernie Sanders staffer turned progressive activist committed to effective communication for Democratic victories.

• Jesse Adams

  • Role: Writer for the Washington Examiner and author on Substack as the "Ivy Exile."
  • Background: Former liberal/progressive thinker who shifted towards conservative viewpoints, especially on immigration.

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Main Discussions

1. Trump’s Handling of the Epstein Files

Mike Pesca presents recent polling data indicating a significant disapproval of Trump's handling of the Epstein situation:

• Poll Results:
  • 63% of Americans disapprove
  • 20% are undecided
  • 70% of registered voters approve of the administration's handling
  • Among Republicans: 40% approve, 36% disapprove

Jesse Adams comments on Trump's ability to maintain support despite controversies:

"Trump said it himself that he can go out into the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and they'd still vote for him." (17:04)

Zee Cohen-Sanchez discusses the persistence of conspiracy theories among Trump supporters:

"...there are a lot of people talking to their loved ones on the iPhones, seeing how much better their life would be if they could somehow get here." (17:53)

2. Impact on Trump’s Base

The conversation delves into whether the Epstein scandal is weakening Trump's support:

• Jesse Adams believes the scandal is a critical juncture but not sufficient to dismantle Trump's base entirely.
• Zee Cohen-Sanchez highlights the enduring loyalty of low-information voters, comparing it to the unwavering support seen in past political movements.

Notable Quote:

"There is no way to ever mend it, not end it." — Mike Pesca (47:00)

3. Immigration Policies and Public Perception

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Trump's immigration policies and their reception:

• Jesse Adams predicts limited success in deportation efforts and emphasizes the importance of tangible results for voter perception.
• Zee Cohen-Sanchez analyzes the dual messaging strategy of appearing tough on immigration while avoiding economic repercussions, particularly in the poultry industry.

Key Insight:

"Trump has to think about if the price of chicken nuggets goes up, how much core support is he going to lose." — Zee Cohen-Sanchez (28:37)

4. Defunding Public Broadcasting (PBS and NPR)

The guests critique the recent defunding initiatives targeting public broadcasters:

• Zee Cohen-Sanchez shares her experience working for PBS under Bill Moyers and her disillusionment with perceived biases during the Obama era.
• Jesse Adams argues that the defunding is a self-inflicted wound for NPR, noting a decline in credibility among former listeners.

Notable Quote:

"NPR just destroyed its own credibility and made itself irrelevant to so many of its former fans." — Zee Cohen-Sanchez (51:26)

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Goat Grinders

A lighter segment where guests share pet peeves:

• Jesse Adams: Frustrated with Charlie Kirk's restriction of Democrats from Turning Point USA events, highlighting issues around the claimed "free marketplace of ideas."

  "There is a list that exists that that is what I've been told." (52:50)

• Zee Cohen-Sanchez: Dislikes the use of the term "unhoused," advocating for more empathetic language like "homeless."

• Mike Pesca: Shares a personal anecdote about a sawdust explosion, emphasizing the importance of following safety protocols.

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Conclusion

Mike Pesca wraps up the episode by acknowledging the contributions of guests Zee Cohen-Sanchez and Jesse Adams. He emphasizes the ongoing political divisions and the challenges in bridging gaps within American society. The episode concludes with a reminder of upcoming segments and producer acknowledgments.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mike Pesca: "Everybody knows that Hulkamania is the strongest force in this universe." (00:53)
• Zee Cohen-Sanchez: "We are not unfucked." (07:53)
• Jesse Adams: "You gotta train. Say your prayers. Eat your vitamins too." (04:07)

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This episode of The Gist offers an insightful exploration of current political climates, media credibility, and the intricate relationship between public perception and policy implementation. Through candid discussions and expert opinions, Pesca, Cohen-Sanchez, and Adams unravel the complexities shaping today's America.

Transcript

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[Mike Pesca]

It's Thursday, July 24, 2025. From Pete Fish Productions, it's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca and it ran wild. Scientists and epidemiologists peg its beginnings to the 80s, but it has now been silenced. I speak of course of Hulkamania. Everybody knows that Hulkamania is the strongest.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Force in this universe.

[Mike Pesca]

And with so many conditions said to be eradicated, it could come back. You'd have to ask our current HHS Secretary or Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who also like the now late Hulk Hogan, spoke at the Republican convention. But Hulkamania and the Hulkamaniacs mourn. Hulk Hogan, 80s icon, 90s heel arts, scourge of Gawker and for a while their lover of Mrs. The Love Sponge. As I said, RNC speaker has died. Let us all rend our garments from the front, tearing them away, exposing very well developed pecs in a moment of appreciation. Okay, that moment now done. Mark Raymondi, who wrote a book called say hello to the Bad Guys will be on the show on Monday. And one of the bad guys was Hulk Hogan. As I said, he turned heel for a breakaway rival to the wwe. First F, then E. So we get into wrestling and how wrestling informs politics. You've heard about this, but I'm going to teach you some phrases like a shoot that turns into a work. You'll know what that means. So today on this show, it's a not even Mad day. And I want to tell you a little bit about the guests. Although over on the not even Mad feed, if you subscribe directly, there are bonus segments where you get to know Jesse Adams and Z Cohen Sanchez a little bit more. We talk about Jesse's sort of political transformation from a Bernie guy to someone who now writes for the Washington Examiner. And why want you to subscribe to the not even Mad feed, which isn't any sort of additional charge or anything, is we want to get that feed with so robust an audience that we could take not even mad off of this feed and have more programming for everyone. I'll do a show there and then we can have more programming here, but it has to get up to a certain threshold. So I did. It's a good show and you should recommend it to people. But I also thank you for subscribing and listening there. Here you will find Z Cohen Sanchez. She was on the show a couple of weeks ago. She also has an interesting story. She worked as a Bernie Sanders staffer and then she, you might remember her a couple of weeks back wanted to have an organization that challenged Charlie Kirk directly. She did. She just went and she's going to talk about some of the things that happened there. She just went to a Charlie Kirk event and she had some bros there trying to debate him and I think a bunch of people got kicked out but it worked very well. So Z is someone staunchly and firmly on the left but also very much wants to communicate effectively so Democrats win elections. Jesse Adams writes on substack as the Ivy Exile and he writes for the Washington Examiner. Washington Examiner, a very useful publication. They do good work. They are a conservative publication you will find and Jesse talks about on the not even Mad feed. But I will tell you he is mostly an apostate to the liberal or progressive movement over the issue of immigration. It's not even mad. If you want to be a Hulk.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Maniac, I can sure tell you how to stay on track.

[Jesse Adams]

You gotta train.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Say your prayers.

[Mike Pesca]

Eat your vitamins too.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

These are all the things that the maniacs do.

[Jesse Adams]

Positive thoughts and positive deeds. These are the things that make you succeed.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Always be good to your family and friends. They're the only ones that'll be there in the end.

[Mike Pesca]

I wanna be a hug a maniac.

[Jesse Adams]

Have fun with my family and friends.

[Mike Pesca]

I want to be a maniac. Have fun with my family and friends. Oh my gosh. We all feel buried under non stop meetings and then you remember wait, what did we even say? Fireflies is your AI teammate that keeps track of it all from key takeaways to next steps to dare I say action items. We're all just trying to figure out how to work smarter and Fireflies is there to say hello. Or if you're there saying hello, it will note that you said hello. Possibly even with tone of voice. It's time to upgrade your AI note taker to be part of your team. Fireflies is the number one AI teammate that transcribes, summarizes and analyzes your conversations so you can get the most out of every meeting. It's the smarter way to work, helping you understand what was said, generate personalized notes, find information, take action on the next steps. I said action items, did I not? And develop workflows to create efficiencies. Fireflies now provides tailored summaries that are personalized to fit your role across many different industries. Right now, when you sign up for a yearly Fireflies subscription, you get your first two months free. Just go to Fireflies AI slash the gist. That's right, two months free. When you go to Fireflies AI, slash the gist. That's Fireflies AI slash the gist. Let's map out this week's amazing destinations and travel tips.

[Jesse Adams]

Honestly, Will, I didn't plan any trips, but I did switch to T Mobile with their new Family Freedom offer.

[Mike Pesca]

That's not the itinerary we're following.

[Jesse Adams]

Well, I'm departing from AT&T and embarking on a new journey with T Mobile. They paid off my family's four phones up to $3200 and gave us four new phones on the house.

[Mike Pesca]

Bon voyage.

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[Mike Pesca]

Hello and welcome back to Not Even Mad, the show where we do for the divisions in American politics. What? Chris Martin, undid for the marriage of two New Englanders. Today we speak of public media funding, immigration and Epstein Jeffrey, not Juan. We do so as we uphold our reputation for refutation and we vow to be not even that we. I say we. Who are we? We in this case is Z. Z Cohen Sanchez, Executive Director of National Ground Game and founder of the UN Fuck America Tour. Z. Are we unfucked yet? Is it a binary? Is it? Are there gradations of fuckitude that you're keeping track of?

[Jesse Adams]

There aren't fuck gradations. I would say that. But the answer, in short, is no. We are not unfucked. So we are. We are still going.

[Mike Pesca]

So is there a countdown clock like the nuclear clock to see?

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah. How many minutes are we till midnight and Hours to unfucked. No, I mean, listen, if I would say we were. We're more unfucked if we get rid of Trump in 2028 and if we win back the House and the Senate in 28 in the midterms.

[Mike Pesca]

Now, Jesse Adams might disagree. He writes for the Washington examiner and is the writer, editor and consultant behind the Ivy Exile on Substack where I found him. Hey, Jesse, thanks for doing this. Am I like violating your secret identity by merging your name in the Ivy Exile title?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

To some extent. But the IV Exile was kind of a gimmick that was inspired by the old TV show the Fugitive. And I knew I couldn't stay anonymous forever, so the New York Post outed me when they reprinted the second thing I ever published, so.

[Mike Pesca]

Which was what?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

It was a piece reflecting on my couple of years working for Columbia Journalism School, covering the Pulitzer Prizes and gradually becoming disillusioned about the Pulitzer Prizes. So the New York Post ate that right up.

[Mike Pesca]

Interesting. Were you there during the 1619 prize in that designation?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

No, that was a little after my time. I was there 2011 through 2013, so I attended some of the Pulitzer luncheons, but it was all about the Arab Spring at that time.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, that went well for everyone. Checks notes. Jeffrey Epstein committed sexual assault, financial shenanigans and suicide. There, I said it. He has also committed a deep sin in the world of Trump loyalists. Well, some of those things may be true to the Trump loyalists, but what he has done is he has reflected indignity on Donald Trump. I'll give you some of the latest polling in America. 63% disapprove of Trump's handling of the Epstein files. 20% are undecided. 70% of all registered voters approve of how the administration dealt with the Epstein files. Approve. I understand. Undecided. They think they. 17% think they did a bang up job. Mike Johnson shut down the House to avoid a vote on Epstein. I guess 17% thought that was good. Now, let's just Look. Among Republicans, 40% approve of the president's handling and 36% disapprove. And you don't get those numbers. I even saw a poll that said there was more disapproval than approval among Republicans over Epstein. And I'm interested in that. And the rest of the media is interested in that. And MSNBC and Senator Dick Durbin and the Bulwark were pretty much salivating over that this could be the thing to split the coalition. And yet none of this seems to have actually happened. As of this recording, this third rail Was like a bug zapper maybe. So Z, I ask you, as a close personal confidant of Charlie Kirk, who is a huge Epstein, truth or tell me, you were at an event with Charlie Kirk. What's your opinion of what that faction or whatever factions of the Trump coalition were thinking and saying about the, the need for Trump to get to the bottom of Epstein?

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah, so it was interesting because Charlie's event, the Student Action Summit, which is one of his biggest events of the year, happened the day after Charlie like completely went pro Trump on the Epstein stuff, which.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So there was a day of we got to get to Epstein and then the next day said, I'm not talking about this anymore. He said to start to talking a bit more about it. But yeah, the event where Unfuck debated Kirk was right. After he backed off your stuff, saying.

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah, so he basically. So the Student Action Summit, he, he had come out with a tick tock media stuff, basically saying, right, that we need to stop talking about the Epstein files. I mean, really like in lockstep with exactly what Trump told him to do. And I think that his audience just didn't for, I guess like for one of the first times, just like didn't buy it because when we were inside the event, especially the day, that first day and we. I only lasted in there two hours before security took me out. I wasn't doing anything, I swear, I was just walking around. But yeah, no, the people that we talked to were just not like, there was definitely sort of a break in trust there. And I don't think it was enough of a break in trust where people were even entertaining the idea of potentially leaving Trump. But definitely, like, I would say stronger than disappointment, like maybe even like bordering anger a little bit. And then Charlie, I think it was that night, or maybe it was the following day, had a conversation with, I can't remember who it was, but one of the like, you know, leading political right wing figures and essentially flipped his position on it. Right. And so then this air sort of was a little bit more stable, I think, because people were like, okay, well you know, at least Charlie is, you know, fighting for us, whatever the hell that means. But still, I think that there is that, that distrust that still exists, at least amongst like a small percentage of them.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Jesse, what's your look back? And when it first broke and we started seeing this polling, this could really be the thing that erodes Trump's base. Were you buying that at all?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Not especially. I mean, I think Trump, part of his impressive turnout is engaging with low information voters who don't always participate in the process. And I think a lot of those people, it almost reminds me of when people tell stories of, oh, the Beatles went psychedelic because Bob Dylan introduced them to weed. Well, no, that's not what had happened. But it makes sense to a lot of people. And so I think in the first Trump turn, when you Trump term, when you had QAnon and Pizzagate and well, why isn't John Roberts voting the way we want him to? Well, it couldn't be that he's an establishmentarian who became chief justice because that's just who he is. No, he's a pedo and they have something on him and that's why everything's not falling perfectly into place. So I do think there's a chunk of his base that giving up on the Epstein files is sort of giving up on, oh, the code of Hammurabi or something. Just this basic foundational element of their worldview. But at the end of the day, they don't have anywhere to go and the Democrats aren't really providing an alternative that those sorts of voters are interested in. And so I thought it was probably going to be a tempest and a teapot at the end of the day.

[Mike Pesca]

So it is good for Trump that he brought these low information voters in. The nice way to say that is people work two jobs and, you know, have seven kids and can't pay attention, you compliment them a little bit, but it's great for him. They were just on the sidelines. And if you bring them in through a narrative and the narrative doesn't rely, you rely on you even understanding the word establishment, establishmentarian, which apparently I don't either. All the better. But what happens is I think the people try, the people who are high information, not even voters, people in the media trying to analyze this, it's very hard to put your mind in the mindset of people you don't understand. And I don't want to blame the media too much about getting this wrong and they may get it right. But it did strike me. Did it strike you, Z, that the makers of Sense did buy that this would break the cult of Trump in a way that nothing has ever broken the cult of Trump, and yet they always seem to fall for it.

[Jesse Adams]

I mean, honestly, I think that this is the closest we've ever been. Okay. I would argue that I can't think unless there's an argument to present. Otherwise, I don't think that there is anything else that. I mean, Trump said it himself that he can Go out into the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and they'd still vote for him. Right. So the fact that there was this thing that did break some trust I think is a good sign that maybe we are headed in the right direction in some way, that there is. That there are some things that aren't going to pass with his base. It's just the, the Epstein stuff is complicated because of what we were just talking about. Right. Like this whole thing with like Pizzagate and the Deep state, and it can very quickly sort of go into that. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

So, yeah, I mean, I think that's what it's very much about. I think that's the core of it.

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah, I mean, it is, but at the same time, is there stuff on Jeffrey Epstein that people should know about? Probably, but the core of what I'm.

[Mike Pesca]

Saying is the core of the appeal to the Trump voter who he brought in is that first thing, not the reasonable rational. This guy had clients and this guy abused people and let's find out who they are.

[Jesse Adams]

That I'd agree with. That's why it gets so complicated, because I think for the average, like, high information Democrat voter, they do want to know because of the fact that there is stuff probably there. But then we're sort of faced with this, like, shitty, almost anti Semitic, deep state nonsense.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

You know, as a counterpoint to that, though, I think there's a feeling among a lot of Trump supporters that if there was a smoking gun there, with all of the lawfare and with all of the efforts over the past four years to get him, well, the Biden people had access to that. And why wouldn't they have leaked about him if there was something there? So I'm not sure. I tend to think there are probably a lot of names on there that don't want to get out and that both parties would have an interest in keeping it suppressed. But to the extent that Trump might be specifically implicated in a Prince Andrew sort of way, I don't see how that wouldn't have been leaked if they had it.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, maybe not, because, okay, maybe I'm way too naive or idealistic, but it would be a violation of DOJ policy. And Merrick Garland was a more or less by the book. I constantly frustrated Biden by not being an explicitly political player, so I'm sure you agree, Zay. Do you think that's too naive, Jesse?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Well, I would look at the abortion decision being leaked ahead of time. I would look at mayorkas claiming, we'll talk about migration a little later. I know But Mayorkas talking about migration being climate change driven versus changes in the asylum policy. I don't tend to think Democrats lied.

[Mike Pesca]

And Democrat officials lied and there was a top Democrat who pretended he could do meetings past 4 o' clock at night. But I, my supposition with this is that it's just a little bit further to violate DOJ policy, which is not a guideline, but they take extremely seriously and to go into a file where maybe Trump's name. And we saw one of the accusers raised. I mean, she told the media this. So she raised in an official interview, her last name is Farmer. She raised in an interview that guys like Donald Trump were always around. Now, we didn't, I don't think we saw that leak beforehand. And the fact that that was out there, it seems like the sort of thing that could be leaked if they were breaking the rules. But, you know, again, my theory is they were loath to break the rules even on this one. I don't know. Z, what do you think?

[Jesse Adams]

I get scared getting into this territory because I feel like it can very easily fall into conspiracy, right? Because part of me agrees with Destiny, with Stephen on this, right? Of like, sure, if, if there, like there's more chance that there wasn't a list during that time or that, that there's not a list at all because the chances of it not getting leaked are so low. Right? Like that, that's where I sort of am. Like, that's why when we were messaging, I was like, I don't know if I have a strong opinion on this because to me, the likelihood, like I try to think statistically, right? Like, yeah, what, what are the, what are the odds that this wouldn't get leaked? Right? And then I start to think, oh, like, you know, and that's where it scares me because then it gets sort of into the conspiracy theories of like, I start to think of Alex Jones and I start to think of Sandy Hook and like, how you can easily fall down the rabbit hole of how many people would have to be involved in this, like, conspiracy in order for it to be real. Right? Like all the firefighters would have to, all the people in the town would have to. And then I think the same thing for the Epstein stuff on, on this side, right? And so that's where my opinion gets shaky.

[Mike Pesca]

Got it. So we've established that I'm an establishment, establishmentarian dupe. I'm going to say establishment a few times, but the Epstein part of Trump's approval is a factor in the fact that his approval Rating has hit a new low. As of this recording, 43 and a half percent of Americans approve of the job he's doing. 53.8% disapprove. And he has taken a big hit on migration. CNN conducted a poll showing that the president has 42% approval on immigration and 58% disapproval. I mean, there are for most of his presidency, this time he had more approval than disapproval on immigration. And if you just look at who approves and doesn't approve. Well, I'll read a poll question from cbs. Do you approve or disapprove the way Donald Trump administration is using detention facilities? Guess what? 93% of Democrats disapprove, 85% of Republicans approve. But the independents are a literal 2 to 1 ratio of opposing it. Do you think, Jesse, because immigration is a driving factor with you, do you think that the public is where they tell pollsters they are, that we disapprove of how he's doing it, or do you think that they disapprove of that he's doing it, that there is no real way to do it without images of sympathetic seeming immigrants getting rounded up. And they don't want to see those images.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I think Americans are used to the media telling them that they can have their cake and eat it too. And so I think Americans both want to be really tough on what's perceived as wrongdoers or maybe people who just arrived very recently without any roots here. But then they also want very cheap chicken nuggets coming out of these giant poultry farms in Arkansas or Tennessee. And so I think a lot of it's a matter of emphasis what's on the news and if people are feeling alarmed and the flow under Biden was so high. And I think the context that gets missed a lot of the time is affirmative action was still around and wokeness was still at its peak. And so I think to a lot of Americans, it was looking like we're getting in this incredible number of people and then they're also going to have certain legal advantages in the system over many Americans who are already here. So I think with wokeness and remission and with affirmative action off the table, at least we'll see how much silent resistance there is to the Supreme Court ruling. But I think that made migration a lot less salient to people and they're feeling less under siege now. So I think there's more room for compassion or, hey, I only wanted that gang banger. I didn't want the, you know, the nice person who giving me the uber.

[Mike Pesca]

Ride yeah, that's interesting. I didn't consider that, that the combination of wokeness or entering a period of peak woke maybe convinces people that even though the immigration numbers are extremely high, don't worry or we'll still be able as a country to have sensible rules about what we give the immigrants. Something like that. But I mean, I just think, and Z, you're a political realist. The President Trump did have a mandate to do a lot on immigration, right, to reverse the legal and illegal immigrants that came during the Biden term, most of them illegal. So was it to get back to the question, do you think though that because he's Trump and he always does everything not with an ax instead of a scalpel, but with a, I don't know, a blunderbuss and a catapult, do you think that, is that what they're telling pollsters is why they object so much to immigration? Or was it maybe what Jesse was saying?

[Jesse Adams]

You know, it's, it's hard to say. But like, I think what we're going to like, what's really going to determine how people feel about it is when we get to the midterm elections, how many people is actually deported. And my guess on this is that he's not going to deport very many people at all because of the way that he's doing it and because of his strategy. I don't think that they're going to see enough of income increase. Now, is that going to affect the average low information voter that doesn't really track things like that? I don't know. But what I do know is that it's going to make its rounds on social media regardless. And that's where a lot of these low information voters are living and breathing and spending their time. So I think that that's, that part's going to be determined. I do know that. Well, I think at least that this was a big issue with the wall. Right. Because he spent so much time talking about the wall, we're going to build the wall, Mexico is going to pay for the wall, all of that. And then how much of the wall got built, like an eighth maybe. And then they like went way over budget with it from what they said. And he was able to get his base off of that, which I think was really interesting. But I, I don't know if they're going to be there with immigration because I think he spent a lot more time on the deportation factor.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you think deportation will be certainly more important to voters than the border statistics? If you go at some of these polls say that they don't like his deportation policies. They don't like the idea of taking innocent people and deporting them, of course. But on border security, he still does pretty good.

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah, on the border security factor, I think so. But I do think that people are going to want to see some tangible evidence in terms of people being deported. I mean, don't you guys like, I.

[Mike Pesca]

Mean you'd think, well, Jesse, yeah, I.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Mean, I think if Trump, he's made some trial balloons in recent weeks about, well, maybe we won't go after agricultural people, maybe we won't go after certain kinds of people in the poultry plants and that sort of thing. And I think when you get to the real border hawks, that's an issue because Trump has to think about if the price of chicken nuggets goes up, how much core support is he going to lose. But the people who are really motivated on this issue want the prices of chicken nuggets to go up because they think that'll be reflected in people's wages. So it's, I don't think Trump is going to be able to keep the, the real border hawk part of his coalition happy with just to avoid some pretty adverse consequences to the economy. But if he's not having a pretty consistent flow of mean looking people who he can show photographs of at Alligator Alcatraz or being shackled onto a plane or something like it, the gravity will catch up with him eventually, I think.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you think his theory of the case to look tough, to have to have Kristi Noem pose in front of detainees wearing her athleisure at sea cot, to perhaps give the image that the cruelty is the point and lean into that, to maybe do a couple of things to appease his border hawk base, but also to give the message that we're being tough on immigration. Do you think his theory of the case is and will work out for him politically?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I think basically there's an element to which the messaging is both to his base to look we're being tough, but also to the rest of the planet because so many of the I want to push back a little bit on you had said the majority of the millions who came were illegal and well, they weren't. They were allowed in as their asylum case is adjudicated and the fact that that takes years and that most of those cases will be denied and that then most of those people would opt to stay and risk deportation rather than leaving themselves, all of those people still have contacts back in their home countries. So every single one of the millions who came with the dubious asylum story and were able to get semi permanent or at leave long term US residency, well, they're telling everyone back home, you know, come, this worked for me, you can do it too. So that creates an enormous magnet. And there's an extent to which a lot of this messaging and the over the top inhumanity of some of it is really, I think, to discourage that magnet factor because there are a lot of people talking to their loved ones on the iPhones, seeing how much better their life would be if they could somehow get here.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you think the Democrats have a better issue or just where. Not Trump?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I just, I think Democrats by, I think mayorkas under Biden was so disingenuous and there was all this messaging about we're doing all we can, we need new legislation, we're at the limits of what we can do with our executive powers. And then a couple months before the election, when it becomes clear they're not going to get the comprehensive reform, well, all of a sudden they change their application of asylum rules like critics had been asking and largely solved the problem of their own accord. And so I think that cost years and years of credibility. I think it's going to take a very long time before Democrats can dig themselves out of that.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you think the Democrats have a better message on immigration or is it just we're not Trump?

[Jesse Adams]

It's just, I mean, we're not. Well, well, this is what I will give Kamala Harris. I think that she, it was smart for her to be tough on the border and I'm glad that she did that because, and this sort of goes into a question I had as well about it's, it would be interesting to see how many Trump supporters are actual border hawks versus the people that just care about this tough on crime messaging. Right. I would venture to say the border hawks are probably a very small percentage that that would, I don't have any stats to back that up. That would just be from like what I've seen online from talking to Trump supporters. I don't think that there are people that are pouring through legislation and trying to figure out how to make the border stronger. But I do think that the Democrats, Democrats have been at least decent in their messaging or at least decent in their stance on. Everybody here agrees that we need to have strong borders. There's no, there's no argument against that. And I think that that's a good thing because I think if we went with this sort of like, I don't know, like open border policy, I think we would just lose in a landslide just based off of that issue alone.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I hear you in terms of the rhetoric that a lot of the more establishment Democrats are using. But when you look at the online discourse or progressive thought leadership or where a lot of the energy of the party is now, whether it's AOC or Mamdani or wherever, you still see quite a bit of no human is illegal. Abolish ice. I don't think that the Democratic constituencies have really particularly changed their mind. And I think with Trump being so rah rah on the border, it's certainly my impression that today's Democrats are closer to open borders than ice.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I mean, to me, abolish ICE is sort of as salient a message as stop Taylor Swift or be against Pumpkin Spice. I mean, have you seen the funding levels of ice? It's going to be. I mean, yes, some of it will be to build facilities, which is not an ongoing funding level, but it's now the biggest federal law enforcement agency by, if not by number of people working there, certainly by money. I shan't be ICE is not being abolished. People ICE is advancing.

[Jesse Adams]

But what, but what is so interesting about, like Zoran and AOC for example, is that you would think that in New York City, a city that we've polled time and time again, where safety is the biggest concern, Right? That is the number one concern of New Yorkers is safety. And yet having immigrants come into this country illegally, almost not arguably, can mean that that safety is in a position of vulnerability. Right. Or at least that's the messaging around it. I don't personally believe that, but that's the messaging around it. So then why is it that Zoran and AOC are winning by landslides? Right? I mean, AIPAC has tried to get AOC out. It's at this point I would think almost impossible. She is such a stronghold on the district. In her first election she won not only District 14, but she run, ran and won in a write in campaign in District 15 as well. Right. All while. And I know she softened her messaging around abolish ice.

[Mike Pesca]

She can't. She can't, she can't serve both.

[Jesse Adams]

I know she can't. Right. And she did it. But the whole can we live in both district.

[Mike Pesca]

I know, I know New York State. I know crazy New York state law says if you just have visited a district or think nicely about it, you could run. But yeah, it's crazy.

[Jesse Adams]

But District 15 is so interesting because everybody might argue against me and say, okay, well, it's easy to win District 14 because, oh, well, she just got the white vote in Queens right here. That all the time. Well, she just got the white. And there's an argument to be made because. Because, yeah, she did worse in the Bronx. Right. Where there's majority black voters. But she's. But District 15 is not laid out like that at all. I mean, District 15 is majority people of color. A lot of it is uptown. Right. And so to me, it's like, okay, well, she ran on that and she still won by a landslide and also won the neighboring district. And then mom Donnie, who ran on similar messaging, also won the New York City mayoral primary. So it's just interesting that there is sort of that dichotomy. Dichotomy between abolish ICE and then the safety, which we know is the number one issue in New York City amongst voters.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Which might change given that this year is tracking to be the least murderous in New York City history. Which really does show that policies. I do think policies have an effect. But the bigger wins of both demographic and societal change are enormous. It's a little like why the Beatles started doing drugs. It wasn't just one cause. Multifactorial, over determined. We'll be back in a minute to talk about a place that two of the three of us gave a paycheck to. This is public broadcasting. Try to guess which two. Back in a minute. I'm not even mad. Listen, I can't help you with everything in the bedroom, like different sleep numbers or different comfort zones, different climates, sometimes not even climates that touch each other. Tundra, rainforest, that sort of thing. But I can help you, or at least give you some advice for what happens between the the sheets or if you're feeling frisky, without a sheet at all. Which brings me to Hims. Through Hims, you can access personalized prescription treatments for ED, like hard mints and sex remedy plus climax control. Hims offers access to ED treatments that cost 95% less than brand names. And they're not even shy about saying the brand names. Viagra, Cialis. HIMS will get you those with a doctor's prescription. Also, once again, Nusex remedy, Nusex RX plus testosterone support includes Tadalafil for better bedroom performance and zinc being done away with in the form of pennies right there for you in the bedroom. Testosterone support. All you have to do is fill out an intake form on the HIM site, connect with a medical provider, can determine if treatment is right just for you. It's all online. You don't have to go to an office. In fact, they don't want you to go. There is no office. They work in an office. You don't have to go to an office. You don't have to wait in line in a pharmacy. You don't need insurance. One Low price covers everything from treatments to ongoing care. The medicine will ship discreetly to your door that comes from the office. Start your free online visit [e-mail] the Gist Find ED treatment that's up to 95% less than brand [e-mail] the gist hims.com the Gist Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan. Featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for details, restrictions and important safety information. Nation let's map out this week's amazing destinations and travel tips.

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That's not the itinerary we're following.

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[Mike Pesca]

Bon voyage.

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[Mike Pesca]

And we are back with Not Even Mad. I am joined by Z Cohen and Jesse Adams and let's talk about the rescission. Rescinding hasn't been done in 25 years of funds for well $7 billion in foreign aid and $1.1 billion that was to go to PBS and NPR now will not go to them. I have written and talked a lot on the subject and my thesis is I do understand why anyone this side of pretty leftist person would hear a lot of NPR programing and say that's not for me. However, Jesse Adams is on this side of a non leftist person and Jesse what's your take? And tell us your history too.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

So I started my career working for Bill Moyers on pbs. I was his blogger and then his research assistant, and I'd grown up on pbs. I mean, no other network did I watch more. And I mean, it really shaped me as a person, and I still watch a fair amount of pbs. But why now? RIP Bill Moyers? He was a wonderful man. I have absolutely nothing negative to say about him as a human being. I did feel about the show, though, and I worked there during the transition from Bush to Obama, that we were biased, and especially with the Obama movement and the excitement for him that perhaps was driven by the rise of social media. But there was still so much of the legacy media that was sort of reflecting that. Just a lot of people interpreted Obama as a fundamental generational change that everybody was going along with more than maybe the actual topography on the scene was. But certainly our office was kind of head over heels for Obama, and we had a lot of programming that just, if I weren't on that page, just frankly, is not appropriate for public funding. Now, our show happened to be fully private.

[Mike Pesca]

Was this Bill Moyer's journal? Was that the show?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, this was Bill Moyers Journal. I was there from 2007 to 2010.

[Mike Pesca]

Z I'll get to you in a second. I do have to ask you, though, Jesse, was this time in your life before you had intellectually gone more conservative, and how did you think about the bias and the fact that you were on a public broadcaster then?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

So I had been in college, on the executive board of the College Dems, and I'd ended up publicly resigning, and it was largely over the immigration issue. But when I moved to New York to work for Bill Moyers, I still saw myself entirely as a progressive, just more in kind of the labor movement, sort of union, higher wages for ordinary people sort of progressive. And there seemed to be less and less room for that during the Obama era. So over the course of seeing how the campaign worked out, it was instrumental in me, I would say, moving to the center more than moving to the. To the right in particular.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, yeah, sorry if I mischaracterize you, but. So then how did you process the fact that you were on this show? Granted, privately funded, but the P In public broadcasting. Did you say this is wrong? Did you say this should be reformed? Did you say that? Did you have different ideas about if the media can be unbiased? What did you think about that?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

At the time? I was very troubled and kind of torn between my personal respect and affection for Bill Moyers. And just my sense that this isn't something that the public should be funding. So I, over the course of some years, came to the conclusion that public broadcasting just attracts a certain kind of idealistic person. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I do think that I no longer believe that public broadcasting is capable of doing unbiased news. So I had written an op ed a couple of months ago that was arguing the best way to save PBS would be to spin the NewsHour and Frontline and the news programming off to cable or syndication and stick exclusively to documentaries and cultural programming and Antiques Roadshow, that kind of thing.

[Mike Pesca]

And Daniel Tiger, which is and Sesame street, which is usually what had saved us in the past. Z. Tell me about the I don't know how much you followed it, but the messaging to try to save these broadcasters, it used to work. I called it the Big Bird shield. Right. Mitt Romney expressed an opinion, I think PBS should be canceled. Then they say, you don't like Big Bird. And Mitt Romney, a different kind of decent person would say, no, no, no, I like Big Bird. Didn't work this time. Totally different era. I think pbs, NPR especially, was still playing in that old. Oh, people will be ashamed to get crosswise with Cookie Monster. But what do you think of the.

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah, I think that that was largely the messaging, which I think to this base is much harder because we're not in the Obama era anymore. Right. So I think that it's really and if you ask, like how to shift the messaging, I really don't know because I think when it comes to really any issue that Trump stands strong on, it's hard to get his base to go against him on anything, you know, and so that's right.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, and it's hard to get anyone in the Senate or the House to do it. And if they do, it's not going to be on pbs. That's not going to be the thing they break with him. Yeah.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

A real challenge for that campaign also was it's it's true what they would say, that PBS and NPR are most significant in rural areas. If you're in an urban area, you're going to have competition. There's other sources there are people who are interested in. But if you're in the middle of Missouri, what are your options for seeing an opera or something? I mean, PBS can really play a major role in connecting people to the world. But then how do you communicate that and say, oh, well, those rural NPR listeners, oh, they're the ones who want to hear about, you know, everything being racist and sexist and all the rest of it. And so it's a completely legitimate argument, but it's an argument that when people try to make, it's easy to spin it off as you're just being arrogant or there are no rural people who want to listen to that, and there certainly are.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. And I would also say you have to give us a billion dollars because we occasionally can give you an early warning on a natural disaster that you wouldn't have gotten, although that seems not to have been the case and in the recent floods. Or you have to give us $1 billion so we can give opera to people in rural Missouri. There seems a much better, more efficient way. If it's really about the Opera to Rural Missouri project, you could do that for a lot less than $1 billion. I would have definitely voted to support my former employer. I just think in terms of government funding, is it more good than bad? Yes, it's a lot more good than bad. Should you fund should you use taxpayer dollars to fund things that make America better? Yes, that's what you should do. Well, could the private could private industry replicate that? No, because look at what look at rural Missouri opera, but also look at the entire state of the news business that just tries to make a profit. Couple of them can, and then they close everywhere else. So you add it all up. I would definitely have voted to fund them, but I could see the point of the people who criticize them. And NPR did itself no favors, and NPR did PBS no favors because the NPR stories that John Kennedy I wrote about this. But critics can point to you go down a list of eye rolling calling, country music racist calling, saying that bird we need to decolonize bird watching. I mean, there are dozens and dozens of stories, to say nothing of the Hunter Biden laptop, to say nothing of a lot of their trans coverage that were eye rolling, that weren't serving all America. And then when I looked at the criticism of PBS, it was mostly that the NewsHour uses the phrase right wing more than left wing, but they do it because they cover January 6th extensively and Q and on. And when you're Talking about Kevin McCarthy, what portions of his coalition were voting against him, it was the far right or the far right wing. So I do think that's that's another point. I do think that PBS really got screwed by npr, and I think that NPR had a lot of excess, but I don't think it was justified their defunding. But that's how it goes. And this is a theme of what we've been talking about. Trump always goes way too far. And I think in 2025, there is no way to ever mend it, not end it. We see that with the schools, we see that with immigration, we see it with pbs. I don't think that that's a viable solution in this administration or maybe in this culture. My two pessimistic.

[Jesse Adams]

I don't know, I think, like, honestly it's, it is, now that I think about it more deeply, it is kind of surprising to me because a lot of these lower information voters obviously are lower income. Right. So you would think that at least for pbs, I, I can understand the NPR angle completely. Right. But at least for pbs, it's surprising that there's not more like, discourse about this, this online because of how much kids are relying on, on pbs. Right. And, and I would argue not just in the rural communities. I mean, like, for example, like my husband grew up in the projects in New York City. They didn't have cable. Like PBS was all they watched. Right. Like, there literally wasn't anything else to watch other than pbs. So it really is like an equalizer, especially for kids that don't have access to cable or access to other ways to access that kind of information. But it doesn't seem to have, again, I think it's just because his base is just whatever Trump says goes. Whatever, whatever his colleagues say goes. But it is interesting. I'd wonder, like, what happens if it actually does end up completely off the air? Is there going to be any pushback to that from his base?

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I always think, I do think there'll be a pbs. I was just on a local show where the station managers detailed what percentage of their budget is being hit by this cut. And my God, this was in Illinois, so not in Chicago. Places like Pawnee, Illinois and Normal, Illinois, we got callers from each of those places and they're talking about 50% of their budgets. So they'll still be a PBS and WNET in New York will continue on and the Bill Moyer show or the equivalent of that will continue on. But, but yeah, it is actually going to be a hit. And last thought on this, Jesse, if you wanted to say anything, I just have one.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Oh, I just wanted. It's such a self inflicted tragedy with NPR in particular, because you go back 20 years, it was universally respected. I mean, even a lot of hardcore conservatives would listen to NPR because there was nothing like it. And it was so good and a Theme I come back to again and again in my writing is I think so many Democrats thought with Obama's comfortable reelection that that meant a permanent majority, that so many institutions just moved into victory mode. One of my commenters the question is settled.

[Mike Pesca]

That was the sort of mindset, okay, now we have.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

So NPR just destroyed its own credibility and made itself irrelevant to so many of its former fans, which if you're a progressive, as most people at NPR are, and you're trying to get your ideas into the national bloodstream, they made NPR a lot less effective at that. And it's just it didn't have to happen. And so many critics begged them to change their ways and they just wouldn't.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And my last thought, final thoughts. To quote a great non public radio broadcaster without if you know the history of cpb, without Bill Moyers there would be no pbs. And now that the world is without Bill Moyers, for many parts of the country there will be no more pbs. Sigh. Let's go on to our goat grinders. These are the things that grind our gears or get our goats. Little annoyances. They could be big annoyances. I'll let you take it where you will.

[Jesse Adams]

Z, Cohen, Sanchez My biggest pet peeve this week is Go Grinder is the fact that Charlie Kirk is consistently still on his messaging about the fact that there should be a free marketplace of ideas and yet doesn't let Democrats into any Turning Point USA events anymore.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you have any proof of that? Any personal proof?

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah, well, we didn't get let in. But honestly I thought actually, actually it was just us that didn't get let in. So I was actually going to give Charlie a pass on that because I was like, okay, well you know, that's, that's his decision, I guess. But no, we actually, we met several Democrats outside the event that were not with us, not associated and actually not even influencers either that were had their cancer. Just citizens, just curious citizens, you know, random people. Some of them were. I talked to one guy that was a teacher, talked to one person that was on social media. They just wanted to go in and just see like what was going on and their tickets were canceled and refunded.

[Mike Pesca]

How they find out they were Democrats, I don't know.

[Jesse Adams]

There is a list that exists that that is what I've been told. There's a list of these people. Yeah, I don't know how you get on the special list or what you have to do to get on said list, but there is a list.

[Mike Pesca]

So yeah, I could See where that would grind your gears and get your goat. Jesse, what do you have as a goat grinder?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

My goat grinder for this week would be. I keep seeing the word unhoused, and I had hoped with a focus on language in the Trump era, that maybe we could leave that one in the past. And what. I'm very. My parents were both social workers. I'm very empathetic to the homeless. You know, I want them to be helped. But using the word unhoused sneaks in this kind of petty cosmology of this whole narrative that you're supposed to accept. I mean, unhoused this person, through no fault of their own, that's primarily due to the housing supply has arrived in this situation, and it has nothing to do with high rates of mental illness or substance abuse or what have you. So I. A word like unhoused is word like underserved, Just any sort of term that implies you're going to accept this whole line of reasoning or you're a bad person.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. Well, to stick up for marginalized linguists, I so agree with you. And don't you think that if we were starting from scratch, the. Of the two homeless or unhoused, the one that to me communicates more sympathy, the one that is less clinical, is homeless. Like, a home is a concept and an idea. And if someone is homeless, you might say, wow, a home's really important. But unhoused, it makes it seem like they're a cog in a factory, doesn't it?

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah. Like, technically, you can be unhoused living in an rv, right? Like, sure. But an RV is still a home to many people, you know, So I actually, I'm. I'm gonna back Jesse on that one. Even if it gets me canceled. I am tired.

[Mike Pesca]

Everything gets you canceled.

[Jesse Adams]

I know. Everything gets me. Well, this is going to be my cancel for the week. But I'm so tired of the policing because from a group of people that are apparently like a cab, they love to police literally everybody. That's. That's my position.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Yeah. All cops are bastards, but all language cops are doing the Lord's work.

[Jesse Adams]

Right, Exactly.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah. You're going to feel more human sympathy if somebody is excited, experiencing hunger versus food insecurity. You know, just dump everything into this technocratic blender and put the. The expert with the graduate degree in charge, you know?

[Jesse Adams]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So my goat grinder is of the institution, of the goat grinder itself. I got a little annoyed. I like to look at the goat grinders as clarion calls. That exist throughout the universe. When someone puts forward a goat grinder, let that stand for all time and let everyone think about that and let that be a warning to future generations. So I look at go grinders like some people might look at a mausoleum or a structure that is meant to stand the length of time. And yet, last, not even mad Jeff Maurer was on talking about his goat grinder, which is he is really annoyed at the excessive warnings of sawdust and its propensity to explode. Jeff Maurer has done a lot of work in construction, said, come on, you just got to be regular and not throw the sawdust in with oily rags and it's not going to explode. Then I was listening to Jeff on I might be wrong, his substack, his audio substack. And this happened on the last wipe.

[E]

Down of the floors before I did the stain, which you do with tack cloths to get every last bit of dust off because you don't want that to become part of the stain.

[Mike Pesca]

I did that.

[E]

I threw the rags, wet rags in a Home Depot bucket. So now I've got wet sawdust covered rags in a confined space. The moisture is what leads to the microbes that can create a chemical reaction. The next thing I did is I stained the floor, wiping the stain off with these rags that aren't even rags like you'd think. They're more like glorified paper towels, their pieces of paper now covered in flammable material. My dumbass threw those in the same bucket. And a few hours later I'm walking by and thought, someone barbecuing. And yes, someone was. That someone was me. And I feel a responsibility to say this because I wrote that. Oh, and then I went on Mike Pesca's podcast and told the same story about how sawdust, it'd have to be just right. Well, if you are as big of a dumbass as I am, and that takes a lot of doing, really, when I tell that story and hear myself say, so then I threw the oily rags on top of the sawdust in the same bucket. I do think, jesus Christ, Maurer, you kind of deserve to have your house burned down. But just for the record, you can in fact cause sawdust to spontaneously ignite.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, that's right, Jeff, after going on this show convincing the listeners not to be too upset with your sawdust exploding, had a case of sawdust explosion right there. It exploded in his face. So that. I'm sorry, Jeff, I'm glad you survived the great sawdust explosion of 25, but that is my goat grinder. But Godspeed. Godspeed, sir. Well, I want to thank my guest Zeko and Sanchez, Executive director of National Ground Game and of course the UN Fuck America tour and Jesse Adams. And you can find him on Substack as the IV exile and also in the Washington Examiner. And until next time, I'm not saying we're right. I'm not saying you're right. I am saying we're not even mad. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the gist. Astra Green is our social media director. The production coordinator is Ashley Khan. Michelle Pesca is all there as our head of commissions on commissions Improve G Peru deperu and thanks for listening.

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