Penn Swimmer's Success Costs School Millions 3 Years Later

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Gist – "Penn Swimmer's Success Costs School Millions 3 Years Later"

Title: Penn Swimmer's Success Costs School Millions 3 Years Later
Host/Author: Mike Pesca, Peach Fish Productions
Release Date: March 22, 2025

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Introduction

In the March 22, 2025 episode of The Gist, host Mike Pesca delves into the contentious intersection of sports, gender identity, and educational policies. The episode primarily focuses on the controversial success of University of Pennsylvania swimmer Leah Thomas and the broader implications of the Trump administration's Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives on academic and extracurricular programs.

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Leah Thomas and the Debate on Transgender Athletes in Women's Sports

Timestamp: [01:03] - [17:10]

Mike Pesca opens the discussion by recounting the case of Leah Thomas, a transgender swimmer whose participation in women's collegiate sports has ignited national debate. Pesca explains that Leah Thomas's inclusion in the University of Pennsylvania's swim team, under NCAA rules following 12 months of hormone replacement therapy, led to her dominance in the 500-meter event. Her success raised questions about fairness in women's sports, sparking intense scrutiny and polarized opinions.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Pesca [10:35]: "Lia Thomas didn't cheat. She followed the rules that the NCAA laid out."
• Michael Phelps [11:21]: "There has to be a level playing field. I think that's something that we all need because that's what sports are."

Pesca highlights the backlash from various quarters, including conservative media outlets and sports commentators. Michael Phelps emphasizes the need for fairness, while Leah Thomas's competitors, such as Emma Wyant, Erica Sullivan, and Brooke Forty, express a range of emotions from support to concern over competitive balance.

Supportive Statements from Competitors:

• Erica Sullivan [14:45]: "Women's sports are stronger when all women, including trans women, are protected from discrimination and free to be their true selves."
• Brooke Forty [14:52]: "I believe that treating respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be."

Pesca also reflects on his previous commentary from March 2022, acknowledging areas where his analysis lacked depth, particularly regarding the perspectives of other swimmers like Riley Gaines. He admits to the challenges of navigating such a fraught topic, especially in a highly polarized media environment.

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Trump Administration's DEI Policies and Their Impact on Educational Programs

Timestamp: [01:03] - [22:06]

Transitioning from sports, Pesca examines the Trump administration's aggressive DEI policies, which aimed to defund programs perceived as violating civil rights or promoting diversity in ways deemed unnecessary or excessive. He cites specific instances such as the defunding of Columbia University and the University of Pennsylvania.

Case Studies:

1. Columbia University:

   • Issue: Alleged Title VI violations involving disruptions by protesters targeting Jewish students and faculty.
   • Impact: Loss of $400 million in federal funding.
   • Pesca's Commentary [03:59]: "This was a very thin read to base a very punitive action upon."

2. University of Pennsylvania:

   • Issue: Punitive actions over a Title IX violation concerning Leah Thomas's participation.
   • Impact: $175 million defunding, representing less than 20% of their federal grants.
   • Pesca's Insight [05:00]: "This was going on three years after Leah Thomas graduated, raising questions about the rationale behind the punishment."

Pesca argues that these DEI measures were often "cruel and pointless," resulting in the dismantling of beneficial programs aimed at increasing diversity without substantially harming existing opportunities for other groups.

Marine Band Scholarship Program:

• Program: Intended to provide scholarships for minority students to play with the Marine Band.
• Outcome: Disbanded due to DEI cuts, only to be later reinstated by a 60 Minutes piece.
• Pesca's Critique [18:18]: "This was just an additional opportunity to try to increase the percentage of black musicians in orchestras. So why not?"

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60 Minutes Coverage: The Silenced Student Orchestra

Timestamp: [17:08] - [22:06]

Pesca references a 60 Minutes segment that spotlighted a student orchestra whose performances were halted due to the Trump administration's DEI policies. The orchestra, composed entirely of ethnic minorities, faced unwarranted suppression, leading to a poignant reunion with the Marine Band.

Student Testimony:

• Student Musician [21:38]: "If we are a society that's suppressing art, we're a society that is afraid of what it might reveal about itself. We are devaluing our own humanity."

Pesca counters this with a practical perspective, noting that the program's cessation didn't impede existing musicians but merely added opportunities for underrepresented groups. He underscores the inherent value of such programs in promoting a pluralistic and inclusive society.

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Broader Commentary on DEI and Its Consequences

Timestamp: [17:10] - [22:06]

In his concluding remarks, Pesca draws parallels between DEI policies and immigration controls, echoing David Frum's warning: "If liberals won't enforce borders, fascists will." He suggests that unchecked DEI initiatives can lead to extremist overreach, ultimately harming the very groups they intend to support.

Pesca emphasizes the difficulty Democrats face in moderating DEI without alienating their base, leading to policies that swing to extremes rather than measured reforms. He advocates for a balanced approach, warning against the "chainsaw" tactics of overfunding cuts and highlighting the necessity of preserving positive programs while addressing genuine concerns.

Final Thoughts:

• Mike Pesca [21:43]: "This was a 17-year-old who just desperately wanted to play John Philip Sousa. Some of the orchestra members who are not allowed to play officially were Asian, some were black, some are Hispanic. So you're telling me that the case for promoting a 17-year-old black or Hispanic kid playing John Philip Sousa, that case somehow runs counter to the goals of America?"

Pesca concludes by reaffirming the importance of supporting diverse talents without undermining the fairness and integrity of existing structures, whether in sports, education, or the arts.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Gist navigates the complex and often divisive topics of transgender inclusion in sports and the ramifications of DEI policies on educational and extracurricular programs. Through incisive commentary and a blend of personal reflection and external perspectives, Mike Pesca offers listeners a nuanced examination of how intentions behind diversity initiatives can sometimes lead to unintended and detrimental outcomes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mike Pesca [10:35]: "Lia Thomas didn't cheat. She followed the rules that the NCAA laid out."
• Michael Phelps [11:21]: "There has to be a level playing field. I think that's something that we all need because that's what sports are."
• Erica Sullivan [14:45]: "Women's sports are stronger when all women, including trans women, are protected from discrimination and free to be their true selves."
• Brooke Forty [14:52]: "I believe that treating respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be."
• Mike Pesca [17:10]: "If liberals won't enforce borders, fascists will."
• Student Musician [21:38]: "If we are a society that's suppressing art, we're a society that is afraid of what it might reveal about itself. We are devaluing our own humanity."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from The Gist episode, providing clarity on the intricate issues surrounding transgender athletes and DEI policies' broader societal impacts.

Transcript

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[Mike Pesca]

Hi, it's Mike. It's Saturday. This is the Saturday show. On Saturdays we play one from the vault and one from the week and the one from the week. This week is going to be this nice 60 minute story on a Marine Band. Kids who qualify to play with a Marine band. But that program was disallowed under the Trump DEI cuts. It wasn't a scholarship program. There are still scholarships equally available for people of all races, including white people. And white people can still join the Marine Band and aren't discriminated against. But this was a program just to try to usher in, foster in minorities who are underrepresented in orchestras. As I say, black people, 2% of orchestras. So the Marine Band said let's have a diversity type scholarship to try to promote that. And they did. And it was disallowed. And it seems cruel and pointless to disallow it. But. But I was trying to think of a good pairing for this. And I was thinking about another not cruel and pointless, but initiative of the Trump administration, which is to defund college campuses that they felt were violating civil rights. Now, they took $400 million away from Colombia and there is a logic to that in that this is a Title 6 concern. Was Colombia doing enough to protect its Jewish students? I don't know. You could argue it either way. But, and here is my point, this was going on as Trump was in office. This time. This was going on weeks ago. Protesters barged into classes at Columbia and Essentially didn't allow Jewish teachers to teach. Jewish students yelled during the class, threw around flyers that had a picture of a boot on a Star of David. This is interrupting the educational opportunities for the Jewish students at that school. In that class, Columbia did take action. Took them a while to expel the students. But this was at least the rationale that the Trump administration was citing in defunding Colombia to a large extent. Then we come to University of Pennsylvania. University of Pennsylvania was also defunded to the tune of $175 million, about a little less than 20% of their about billion dollars in federal grants. And this was in punishment over a Title 9 violation. The theory being that swimmer Leah Thomas, who I'm sure you've heard of, should not have been allowed to participate. But Leah Thomas graduated in 2022. So three years ago, the school. Not a month ago, three years ago, the school allows someone to participate in a race as is allowed under NCAA rules. And in fact, it's a question of disallowing her. Would have been a Title 9 violation of some way. So they do not break the rules, they allow participation. And now three years later, the Trump administration is punishing them. This seems a very thin read to base a very punitive action upon. But the great thing about the Vault.

[Commentator 1]

Is the Gist has all of my.

[Mike Pesca]

Opinions over the years. And In March of 2022, I opined about the Leah Thomas situation. This was days after she had won her race and I had to orient the audience and explain who this Leah Thomas figure was. She's since become famous. Infamous a lightning rod, depending on where you stand. And as I play it, I agree with, I don't know 92% of what I self critique. I didn't know that there were other swimmers who objected. They were in public then. And this person named Riley Gaines, who lost to her not in the 500 but the 1500, she didn't lose, actually. She tied, but she wasn't allowed on the metal stand because there were a limited number of spots. And Leah Thomas was. So Riley Gaines feels that she wasn't. And she rightly feels that she wasn't given all the accolades she would have gotten if Leah Thomas had been disallowed to swim. She'd become a conservative activist. Anyway, I didn't know about that. Um, wasn't really my fault. Raleigh Gaines, I don't think was prominent at the time, but I just went with the information I had. And the other self critique is. I think I probably said right wing, a little pejoratively. And perhaps a listener could say that I was being dismissive of the legitimate ish concerns. I mean, they. Of the Daily Mail and New York Post. They phrase them in their inimical style. But these concerns are indeed legitimate. And then also self critique at the end, as you'll hear. I do the little bit of a dodge. I do say that at the highest levels, this seems unfair and it was allowed by the NCAA because these were fina, the international organization's rules. But it's not allowed now. But I do say this was unfair at lower levels. There's a great virtue to allowing all sorts of kids to participate in sports. But aren't I dodging the question of what I think about the high school level? So I think since then, as. As concerns high school sports. Yeah. It seems to me that natal males participating with. Against females in high school sports, if objected to, should not be allowed. That does seem a little bit unfair. At least that's where the issue is right now. I know it's still an unpopular stance to take among the left. You have to remember how unpopular just talking about these things was then. I was recently talking to a friend of mine who's an editor, and he was doing a piece or editing a piece about trans issues is like, do we don't even remember just four years ago. And now thinking about this piece in 2022, three years ago was very, very, very fraught. You had to go over every single word to be very careful that you didn't say or imply or get on the wrong side of very vocal activists who, if you were not, if you were in anything other than the conservative media space, would make, could make, and often would make your life very difficult. And so that was the attention, that was the scrutiny to everything about trans issues that we have gotten to a little bit better place where you could talk about it a little openly. Maybe I wouldn't have had to been so careful in my language or my thinking back then. I don't think I'm being uncareful now. But you can judge because we have that piece and the 60 Minutes commentary on the Marine scholarship. And that's all up next.

[Commentator 1]

And now the spiel. Here is how this week's Sports Illustrated story begins. Fresh off her final practice of the week, the most controversial athlete in America sat in the corner of a nearly empty Philadelphia coffee house with her back to the wall. Most controversial. For some, her name will be meaningless. But for others who don't recognize names like Kyrie Irving, Ben Simmons or Devonte Adams, Leah Thompson Rings a bell and presses buttons. SI describes the University of Pennsylvania swimmer as, quote, one of the most dominant college athletes in and as a result, the center of a national debate. A living, breathing, real time Rorschach test for how society views those who challenge conventions. The ones who know Leah, who've heard the name on Fox, who've seen those segments on Tucker, or just who read with interest in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Rorschach test is definitely not the way to put it. Rorschach tests have no meaning. They're designed to be ambiguous. Leah's critics, or critics of the NCAA that allowed a transgendered to swim as a woman do not believe the human body is a Rorschach test. They don't believe that there is ambiguity in what constitutes a man versus a woman.

[Mike Pesca]

Now, there are others who loathe Tucker.

[Commentator 1]

Carlson, who don't want to see themselves as in any way anti trans, who support the right of women to be women. If they identify as women in nearly all aspects of life and clothes and dress and bathrooms and pronouns. These people subscribe to the idea that trans people should enjoy acceptance, even better respect by others. But then their sports, and not recreational sports, highly competitive sports, sports that decide scholarships worth tens of thousands of dollars. That at the highest level, the level in which Lia Thomas competes, sports that can confer the status of Olympic champion can define legacies or careers. When it comes to sports at this level, fairness is a virtue that must be reckoned with. And the respect or acceptance or even admiration that we should give to a transgender should be balanced against the fairness we give to all the other women. The vast majority of the women who depend on institutions that are the arbiters of fairness to stand up for them too. Lia Thomas, before her transition, was a good male swimmer. This season she was great. And at the NCAA championship on Tuesday in Atlanta, she was more than great. She was the best woman in the 500 meters in America.

[Announcer 1]

Near at the end of this race, Thomas starting to pull away at the bell, it's Leah Thom Thomas moving away from EMMA Wyatt Brook 40 in the third. Wyatt right up there against that lane line. She's having a great race here and she's gonna get second. That will give her a lot of confidence. Remember, she's just a freshman. Leah Thomas pulling away over the final 150 meters.

[Commentator 1]

Thomas would go on to win by more than a second and a half over second place finisher Emma Wyant, who, as you heard the announcer say, was only a freshman. True, but she and third place finisher Erica Sullivan and fourth place finisher Brooke, 40. They were also Olympians, silver medalists at the Tokyo Olympics. In fact, Thomas had beaten the best America had to offer in women's swimming, thereby establishing herself as the very best women's swimmer in America at the 500. The time didn't lie. Lia Thomas didn't cheat. She followed the rules that the NCAA laid out. She did 12 months of hormone replacement therapy and had her testosterone monitored to within the NCAA defined acceptable levels. When asked about this, the greatest swimmer in US history, Michael Phelps, had this to say.

[Michael Phelps]

There has to be a level playing field. I think that's something that we all need because it's like that's what sports are. And for me, I don't know where this is going to go. I don't know what's going to happen. I believe that we all should feel comfortable with who we are in our own skin. But I think sports should all be played at an even playing field. I don't know what that looks like in the future, but it's, it's, it's hard.

[Commentator 1]

It is. And critics of Phelps and transgender activists were hard on Phelps for his answer. He imperfectly tried to answer an extremely tough, if not impossible question. Today NBC published an essay by Cheryl Cookie, Purdue University professor of American Studies and Women's gender and sexuality studies headlined we should be celebrating Leah Thomas like we did Jackie Robinson. It would be charitable to call an analogy to Jackie Robinson merely imperfect. Maybe it's more like insulting. In this essay, Cookie argues, quote, there is a lack of scientific evidence that conclusively demonstrates direct link between testosterone and athletic performance. Cookie links to a Scientific American article about myths relating to intersex athletes, not one like Thomas who went through male puberty and as such experience the testosterone benefits of height, lung capacity, skeletal size, etc. To take a non technical distinction, one that everyone will get. Leah Thomas is 6ft 2 inches tall. The average male Olympic swimmer is 6ft 2 inches tall. The average female Olympian is 5 foot 9. Lia Thomas is in fact taller than the tallest female Olympic medalist, Kate Campbell from Australia in the 2021 Games. Thomas didn't win because she's tall. She was a fine, fine swimmer pre transition without a big height advantage on her NCAA rivals. But you see, the effects of testosterone didn't help her against her competitors who didn't go through male puberty calls into question your credibility overall. But the credibility of the anti leopress should also be called into question. More even than that essay by the Purdue professor. The Daily Mail of the UK and the New York Post and other conservative outlets. Fox made sure that Thomas's example was known. A picture of the second through fourth place finishers in the 500 celebrating without Leah was displayed as proof that those three opposed or resented Thomas.

[Mike Pesca]

This was just a picture taken of.

[Commentator 1]

Three Olympic teammates who knew each other beforehand and were friends. In fact, absolutely the most inspiring thing that I took away from the entire weekend were the public statements of number three and number four finishers, Erica Sullivan and Brooke forty. Sullivan wrote, quote, as a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are. Sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources, and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list. Women's sports are stronger when all women, including trans women, are protected from discrimination and free to be their true selves. And 40 issued a statement that said, quote, I believe that treating respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Leah at NCAA is this year. Still Google the names of these great swimmers, Thompson, Wyatt, Sullivan and 40 and you will see the picture. Three of them together, one of them apart. The headlines on Fox News and all the conservative sites portray it as a snub when they know full well that those statements of support from two of the three swimmers that Thomas beat out were issued beforehand and widely circulated. Thomas didn't speak media or do any press conferences during the NCAA meet, with one exception. After exiting the pool with the title, she submitted to the customary Q A with the sideline reporter.

[Reporter 1]

You've undoubtedly been under the spotlight over the past few months. How have you been dealing with that and reasoning with everything?

[Leah Thomas]

I try to ignore it as much as I can. I try to focus on my swimming, what I need to do for to get ready for my races and just try to block out everything else.

[Reporter 1]

What did that race mean to you?

[Leah Thomas]

It means the world to be here, be with two of my best friends and teammates and be able to compete in the future.

[Commentator 1]

Even though more people will no doubt be transitioning, it may be harder for one to switch divisions from male to female. The NCAA mandated that Thompson undergo 12 months of hormone replacement therapy, but quickly changed the rule to be 36 months plus the pandemic allowed for a year away from competition for her to undergo medical interventions. It could be unique circumstances. I don't have to have an opinion on everything, right? You know that on this I'm conflicted. There are bad arguments, dismissing science as not science. As we heard from supporters like Cookie, there is a cruelty to the Daily Mail esque outrage in between. Caught in between these two polarities of intense finger pointing are athletes with real grace, like Sullivan and 40. But notice that second place finisher Emma Wyant stayed silent. I can't critique her. Is her stance backward? Is her stance graceless? Is it understandable? Is it obviously correct at lower levels? I think sports is about participating in sports and a transgendered athlete should not be barred. At the highest levels, we must acknowledge that the competing values of fairness and acceptance are legitimate. Each of them are compelling, and dismissing the other as bad faith is ignorant or opportunistic.

[Mike Pesca]

I also doubt that there'll be a.

[Commentator 1]

Spate of trans women winning every swim meet. I don't think this represents the potential destruction of women's sports because if enough transgender women crowd the podium, that we could just have a trans women's division. And even if one trans woman dominates in the 500, as Thomas did, she was still beaten in the finals of the other races she competed in. I know that Lia Thomas did nothing wrong, absolutely nothing wrong. And I also know that I cannot criticize Emma Wyant if she felt that the rules needed to protect her more. But I'm thinking Most of the third and fourth place finishers, Sullivan and 40 and I just hope that they look at their bronze medal and non metal and hold that accomplishment and everything it implies as dear as all the golds that they have won and will win in the future.

[Mike Pesca]

60 Minutes had a wonderful piece last night about a student orchestra whose music was silenced because of the Trump DEI initiatives. Thirty young musicians, all members of ethnic minorities, were selected to play with the Marine Band. But because of the new DEI rules, the project had to be disbanded. Then 60 Minutes rebanded them.

[Reporter 2]

This past Sunday at the Music center at Strathmore near Washington, 22 students who had lost their chance to play tuned up with the military band veterans for the concert that was not meant to be heard.

[Mike Pesca]

This is one of those thoughtless, needless examples of excess when it comes to the war on dei. Another is Arlington National Cemetery's removal of information about black and women aviators and war heroes. Are you telling me the government couldn't rein in the excesses, which I've talked a lot about on the gist, without getting these obviously positive programs also axed? Well, of course they could, but that they don't is part of the point. But I also think it's inevitable that this would be Another example of the chainsaw and not the scalpel. No Democrat could really reign in dei given the requirements of remaining in good standing among the Democratic coalition. Hard for any Democrat to take that heat. Most wouldn't even want to. But no real momentum was going to come from a Democrat. So Republicans elected on a promise to rid the country of dei. Even if you say to yourself, well, some wouldn't be as extreme as Trump, I don't know any Republican would sense that DEI is extremely unpopular among the base and they'd want that hit of in party approval for going against it. David Frum said this extremely profound thing about immigration, but I think it's profound because it applies to so many aspects of government as a warning to extremists. From the original quote was if liberals won't enforce borders, fascists will. All right, and with this I say if liberals won't correctly calibrate dei, racists will. You could also say, if pro government liberals won't rein in spending, anti government extremists will. If liberals won't protect children with prudent policies on gender, medicine, transphobes will. And on and on. The 60 Minutes piece culminated in a performance by the student orchestra, which is true, didn't have any white members. But it's not like the presence of this program hurt the ability of young white musicians to join the Marines or play in the Marine band, or play in other orchestras, or win scholarships for the existing ongoing, many years long student competition that the Marines sponsor every year. This, this program was just an additional opportunity to try to increase the percentage of black musicians and orchestras from 2% to something higher. So why not?

[Commentator 1]

Who does it hurt?

[Mike Pesca]

One young musician who 60 Minutes featured made the case for the program to continue.

[Student Musician]

If we are a society that's suppressing art, we're a society that is afraid of what it might reveal about itself. If we're suppressing music, we're suppressing emotions, we're suppressing expression, we're suppressing vulnerability, we're suppressing the very essence of what makes us human. We are devaluing our own humanity. We're degrading our own humanity.

[Mike Pesca]

True enough, but without getting quite so deep or abstract. This was a 17 year old who just desperately wanted to play John Philip Sousa. Yeah, the guy who wrote Stars and Stripes Forever. Some of the orchestra members who are not allowed to play officially were Asian, some were black, some are Hispanic. So you're telling me that the case for promoting a 17 year old black or Hispanic kid playing John Philip Sousa, that case somehow runs counter to the goals of America, or even the goals of deep red state America, Stars and Stripes Forever, or until the administration wrecks another part of what makes America a pluralistic and shared experience. And that's it for today's show. The GIST was produced by Corey Wara and Michelle Pesca is the CBSO improve. Thanks for listening. The GIST is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses. Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.