Podcast Title: The Gist
Host: Mike Pesca
Episode: Pesca Plus Special: Arlie Hochschild
Release Date: June 19, 2025
Introduction and Context
In this special episode of The Gist, host Mike Pesca delves deep into the emotional underpinnings of American political dynamics by interviewing renowned sociologist and anthropologist Arlie Russell Hochschild, the author of Stolen Pride, Lost Shame and the Rise of the Right. The conversation explores how emotions like pride and shame influence voting behaviors, particularly in regions that have shifted politically in recent years.
Mike Pesca's Opening Remarks
Pesca opens the episode by pondering why former President Donald Trump doesn't directly attack Juneteenth, a federal holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the United States. He theorizes that Trump's strategy avoids critiquing such holidays to maintain his support base, which values symbolic gestures like days off. Pesca states:
"It's because people get a day off and people want a day off. And Donald Trump knows that he can engage in the symbolism or sometimes the actuality of critiquing and dismantling Dei and then he's on steady ground." [00:58]
Interview with Arlie Russell Hochschild
Deep Stories and Political Emotions
Hochschild introduces the concept of "deep stories"—narratives that encapsulate how individuals perceive their experiences and emotions in the political landscape. She explains that the right-wing deep story revolves around feelings of being overlooked and unfairly burdened by societal changes.
"The right wing deep story isn't about precepts. It isn't. It's about what the world feels like to you and you're waiting in line patiently... People say, oh, the liberals value the animals more than us." [09:11]
The Four-Moment Ritual
Hochschild outlines a four-step ritual that she observes in Trump's interactions with media and his supporters:
- Transgression: Trump makes a controversial statement.
- Public Shaming: Media critiques the statement.
- Trump as Victim: He portrays himself as unfairly attacked.
- Rebellion: Trump rallies his base against the shaming.
"Moment one, he says something transgressive... Moment four, Donald Trump rails against the shamers." [12:55]
The Pride Paradox
The discussion shifts to the "pride paradox," a situation where individuals in economically struggling regions take pride in personal responsibility for their success or failure, leading to increased vulnerability to divisive political messaging.
"People are losing wages and they're losing opportunities... you have a different culture of pride, a more individual centered culture of pride." [19:46]
Shifts in Political Alignment and Messaging
Hochschild examines why certain demographics, particularly white, working-class individuals in regions like Kentucky's 5th Congressional District, have shifted from Democratic to Republican support. She attributes this shift to the Democrats' failure to address these individuals' feelings of being unheard and undervalued.
"If the problems are social class problems and if you have a lot of poor whites, why aren't they turning to the Democratic Party? ... they felt like they weren't being heard by the Democrats." [24:29]
White Nationalism and Redemption
The conversation turns to white nationalism, exploring how individuals involved in such movements can sometimes change their views. Hochschild shares her experience interviewing Matthew Heimbach, a neo-Nazi leader who began to reconsider his beliefs.
"There was a white nationalist march... turns out he was on the spectrum... he kind of got stuck on, on that thing and so I've interviewed him a bunch of times and actually he's changed a lot." [33:04]
Hochschild contrasts this with Trump's increasingly extreme behavior, highlighting the fluid nature of political positions.
"Donald Trump through the new period, through the same period of time had started more moderate, was getting more and more extreme, and he's now invited a neo Nazi to Mar a Lago." [35:46]
Sociological Fieldwork Techniques
Pesca inquires about Hochschild's sociological methods, particularly her ability to coin terms like "emotional labor." Hochschild explains her approach to immersive fieldwork and storytelling, emphasizing the importance of listening and building empathy.
"I'm a slow worker. I love to hear stories of people's experience... trying to look for common ground." [38:55]
"The empathy bridge isn't about agreement. It's about coming to respect each other equally..." [41:51]
Closing Remarks
As the episode wraps up, Pesca and Hochschild reflect on the need for Democrats and the media to better understand and engage with the emotions of less affluent, pride-driven populations. Hochschild advocates for building empathy bridges and recognizing the complex emotions that drive political allegiance.
"We haven't been tuning in to a sinking large sector of society that's been sinking. ... there's a lot we're not so good at doing." [28:46]
Pesca concludes by emphasizing the importance of understanding these emotional dynamics to bridge political divides and foster a more inclusive dialogue.
Notable Quotes
-
Mike Pesca:
"Americans like a day off on the show today." [01:04] -
Arlie Russell Hochschild:
"The empathy bridge isn't about agreement. It's about coming to respect each other equally so that you get an avenue through which both people can hear what the other one is saying." [41:51] -
Hochschild on White Nationalism:
"There was a white nationalist march... he actually changed his mind." [33:04]
Conclusion
This episode of The Gist offers a profound exploration of the emotional drivers behind political shifts in America. Through her insightful dialogue with Arlie Russell Hochschild, Mike Pesca sheds light on how pride and shame influence voter behavior, the effectiveness of Trump's rhetoric, and the broader implications for American democracy. Listeners gain a deeper understanding of the emotional complexities that shape political landscapes and the urgent need for empathetic engagement across divides.