Plestia Alaqad: “The Eyes of Gaza,” Witness and Journalist

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Gist

Episode: Plestia Alaquad: “The Eyes of Gaza,” Witness and Journalist
Host: Mike Pesca
Publication Date: October 9, 2025
Guest: Plestia Alaquad (Journalist, Author of "The Eyes of Gaza")

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Pesca interviews Plestia Alaquad, a 23-year-old Palestinian journalist from Gaza, who rose to prominence during the 2023 Gaza War for her firsthand reports on Instagram. The episode explores both the horrors she witnessed and questions the boundaries between witness and journalism. Pesca challenges Alaquad on her journalistic choices, language, and framing, aiming to unpack how narratives are built and disseminated, especially when the reporter is also a central character in the story.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Background and Gaza’s Realities

• Plestia's Age and War Experience
  • Alaquad frames her age as “four Israeli aggressions old” instead of 23, emphasizing life in Gaza is measured by conflict, not years.
    • “It’s rather defined by your experience. And that experience, Israel gives it to you…” (10:06, Plestia)
• Education Opportunities and Restriction
  • She describes the difficulty of travel from Gaza due to border controls, visa complications, and airport bombing.
    • “It's a privilege to be able to do that. It's not something common that everyone can do due to the border situation and due to how expensive it is.” (13:43, Plestia)
  • While some Gazans do study abroad, it’s a rare privilege tangled in bureaucracy.
• Normality Amid Crisis
  • Despite severe restrictions, Gazans try to make their lives beautiful:
    • “We made that open air prison be paradise in our eyes.” (23:07, Plestia)

2. On Journalism and Firsthand Witnessing

• Journalistic Path and Motivation
  • Alaquad found "desk journalism" unsatisfying and wanted to report directly, aiming to represent Gaza in her own narrative, not the Western media’s.
    • “I always wanted to work in an international news outlet, not a local media outlet, because in Gaza we all know the local news. Even children know what's happening. So I wanted to make a difference…” (16:56, Plestia)
• Social Media as Platform
  • Her Instagram reports during the 2023 war made her famous. She focused on humanizing Gazans rather than reducing them to news items.
    • “I always made sure to treat us as stories and for the world to know our names…” (24:36, Plestia)

3. Language, Narratives, and Credibility in Conflict

• Challenging Terminology
  • Pesca repeatedly questions Alaquad’s use of “IOF” (“Israeli Occupation Forces”) instead of “IDF,” and her swift framing of the war as “genocide.”
    • “Part of journalism is to have a shared or agreed upon vocabulary.” (29:48, Pesca)
    • Alaquad argues: “When someone is occupying a land, we call them occupier. That's why it's IOF.” (31:03, Plestia)
• Labeling the Conflict as Genocide
  • Alaquad used "genocide" as early as October 12, 2023; she justifies the term by referencing killing, starvation, and ethnic cleansing.
    • “It's on the scope of killing Palestinians, killing babies, starving them, bombing them, burning them alive, and tents…” (33:58, Plestia)
• Selective Critique and Journalistic Objectivity
  • Pesca presses Alaquad about whether she would ever criticize Hamas. She repeatedly redirects:
    • “My criticism right now is for the occupation and what they're doing. Either I want to criticize Hamas or not... that's an issue that we Palestinians can deal with, but what we're dealing with right now is the occupation.” (38:54, Plestia)

4. Addressing Specific Incidents & Media Critique

• Al-Ahli Hospital Strike
  • Pesca asks about her reporting on the hospital bombing, which mainstream outlets disputed as an errant Palestinian rocket.
    • “As a journalist, I obviously always factor check what's happening. And I believe anyone who's still getting manipulated by Israeli propaganda... just want to be blind and not believe the truth.” (26:13, Plestia)
• Hind Rajab Incident
  • Plestia claims Western outlets referred to a 6-year-old girl killed in Gaza as a "woman." Pesca fact-checks and finds just one brief CNN slip, quickly corrected on air (45:10–47:25).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Exchanges

• “Open air prison. ... But what is mind blowing for me is how us Gazans, we made paradise from that. We made that open air prison be paradise in our eyes.”
  — Plestia Alaquad (23:07)

• “I never treated Gazans as news. I always made sure to treat us as stories and for the world to know our names.”
  — Plestia Alaquad (24:36)

• “I do believe firmly that as a human being, Plestia deserves all of our sympathy... But I also think that as a journalist... Plestia doesn’t necessarily deserve our credence.”
  — Mike Pesca (08:15), previewing his approach

• “My definition of a genocide isn’t only the killing of civilian people. And history didn’t start... in October 2023. What’s happening in Gaza right now is only a continuation of what... [began in] 1948.”
  — Plestia Alaquad (35:11)

• “Are you a critic or a journalist? Because I would think a journalist would take into account all the factors at play.”
  — Mike Pesca (39:12)

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Key Timestamps

• 09:53 — Intro of Plestia and the theme of measuring age by conflict
• 12:54 — Gaza’s border restrictions and privilege of travel
• 18:29 — Alaquad’s dissatisfaction with desk journalism
• 22:21 — Gaza described as both “open air prison” and “paradise”
• 24:36 — Rise of Alaquad’s Instagram journalism and focus on individual stories
• 25:54 — The Al-Ahli Hospital incident; credibility and fact-checking
• 29:42 — The debate over “IOF” vs. “IDF” and implications for journalism
• 33:14 — Criteria for calling the war “genocide”
• 38:13 — On Hamas’ restrictions and occupation vs. internal governance
• 41:00 — Accusation that Western media called Hind Rajab a “woman”
• 42:16 — Plestia’s concluding message about Gaza’s overpopulation and evacuations

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Takeaways for Unfamiliar Listeners

• The episode is a thoughtful, sometimes tense exploration of what it means to report from within a war as both witness and participant.
• It serves as a case study on the interplay between personal truth and journalistic standards in conflict zones, especially when social media amplifies the first-person narrative.
• The discussion spotlights the complexity of language, framing, and perceived bias, with both host and guest standing firm on their perspectives.
• Plestia’s account gives voice to the lived experiences of Gazans, while Pesca pushes for rigor in clarity, terminology, and balance—highlighting the sometimes uncomfortable (but necessary) questions about sources, influence, and the role of emotion in journalism.

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Final Thoughts and Tone

The conversation is both empathetic and challenging. Pesca commends Alaquad’s resilience but insists on scrutinizing her reporting rigor, especially given her vast online influence. Alaquad defends her perspective, foregrounding the urgency and stakes of her lived experience while resisting external pressure to criticize Palestinian authorities or to alter her linguistic framing for neutrality.

This episode probes the difficult but essential question: Who do we trust to tell the story of a war, and what standards should we hold them to?

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Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts.

[Plestia Alaquad]

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[Mike Pesca]

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[Plestia Alaquad]

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[Mike Pesca]

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[Plestia Alaquad]

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[Mike Pesca]

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[Plestia Alaquad]

Nice. Je free. You heard them.

[Mike Pesca]

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[Plestia Alaquad]

Dude, my work here is done.

[Mike Pesca]

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[Plestia Alaquad]

It's.

[Mike Pesca]

Thursday, October 9, 2025 from Peach Fish Productions it's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca and I'm going to do something unusual. I am going to preview the conversation I'm about to have and the reason I'm doing this before you have the conversation is you have the ability to skip ahead and listen to my conversation with Plestia a la Quad. But also because in the past when I have commented afterwards it has struck some members of the audience as uncharitable or me getting the last word so won't do this. I listen to a lot of podcasts where they're like oh this guest is coming up and here's my perceptions beforehand and here's how things changed. So you are going to hear a conversation with a 23 year old who has been living in Australia for the last couple of years, who is and was a Gazan and was in Gaza for the first month and a few weeks of the Gazan war and what she saw there was horrible. Plessy Alaquad is also identified as a journalist and there is no rule who is or isn't a journalist. And Plessy Alaquad has engaged in journalism in that she reported what she saw to the world and got a lot of acclaim for it. She has 5 million followers on Instagram and she's been on NBC and she's been on many outlets and the Washington Post did an interview with her and you could tell why. It's compelling because especially early on, this charismatic young woman, through her eyes, turned her camera to herself in horror and to the shock and horror around her. And it was terrible. The first month of that war, there was so much carnage. The carnage has continued, but it was particularly acute very early on. The Ministry of Health, Hamas controlled Ministry of health, still 10,000 or so casualties. They don't separate out civilian or combatant, but many, many, many, many people dead. More than any innocent 21 year old at the time to see. Alaqua, as you'll hear in this interview, had a couple of short stints in journalism. She quit both jobs, I think she says six months in, because she didn't like doing journalism sitting at a desk. She wanted to interview people. One might argue that these are the skills and the training that sitting at the desk, especially in your very first job, might be a good foundation for future skills, might be training for how best to do the in the field journalism. But I was genuinely interested in talking to her, asking about what she actually did see. And then since I read her book and you all hear about the eyes of Gaza, I wanted to ask her about what she is reporting. There's what she saw, what she experienced as a person and what she is reporting as a reporter, as a quote, unquote reporter. But some of those quotes were put there by the Guardian and by NBC. So I do believe firmly that as a human being, Plestia deserves all of our sympathy. As someone who lived through an undeniably tragic occurrence, she was victimized in a war and we should have nothing but sympathy for her. But I also think that as a journalist, or as a supposed journalist or someone who's been called a journalist, who calls themselves a journalist or just even as a witness to what went on, Plestia doesn't necessarily deserve our credence. And if we lead with our sympathy and sympathize ourselves into believing everything she says, well, that's not exactly how truth works. I don't think Plessdie is lying about everything, or maybe even anything, if you want to use the word lying, the things she directly saw and the feelings she felt as she reports those feelings when she saw them, are all valid and they're valid to contemplate. But everything else, from talking about the facts of how an attack originated to the actual words she used to describe phenomena in the world, world are not, should not be affected by the fact that we're sympathetic to her then 22 year old who saw her entire world and society being bombed. Sympathy for the person, understanding the person. That's something I wanted to bring you. But I also wanted to bring you understanding where the journalistic impulse or desire to be taken seriously as a truth teller comes from. And I want you to come away from this interview contemplating all the horrors that she saw, but also contemplating who we call a journalist and a truth teller and why. And I'm sure as many will hear this interview, you will say I pressed too hard, I'm older, I'm white, 50 something years old, she's young, she came from a war, she's Palestinian. These are all things that line up in her favor of the oppressed and mine is the oppressor. If that's your worldview, fine, fine. Not gonna argue with that. Maybe you'll get something out of this interview that made you uncomfortable or made you resent me for picking on this very sympathetic figure. But also, she is someone with 5 million Instagram followers and much of the world is getting their information from her. So if you can listen to it however you want, it's very much a conversation about her experience, but also about who we elevate, where we get our narratives from, and what our narratives are. So I will take your resentment, your pre resentment, if it also causes a moment of reflection as to that part about the truth of things. Now the author of the Eyes of Gaza Plestia Ala Khan as the weather cools and I try to stay cool, I'm swapping in the pieces that get the job done, which are the warmth, durable, built to last. Quintessentially Quince pieces. Quince delivers wardrobe staples every time that carry me through the season. Oh, I've got my eye on a suede trucker jacket. I am suave if not suede, and though not a trucker, it is perfect for layering and just looks really casual and put together. But you know, a lot of craftsmanship goes into it. As with all the Quint's clothing, it's really a go to across the board bedding, bath, cookware, travel accessories. I say layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quince.com the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com the gist free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the gist life's been a little crazy lately. Perhaps you've been hearing some of the segments on the show or just looking out the window and things. So you gotta unwind. And right around here in Gist HQ in Peachfish aq, one helpful tool in helping many of the members of the Just family unwind are Cornbread Hemps CBD gummies. A natural way to to both relieve aches and discomfort and calm you down and help you get to sleep. Different gummies for different things. Lots of peace of mind. Cornbread Hemps CBD gummies. They're made to help you feel better. They handle stress, discomfort. Just the relaxation part of it that's not so easy to get. It's a simple word, it has an X in the middle. So maybe it's a little exotic, but it is elusive. Relaxation, is it not? So jumpstart that or ease into it with a cornbread hemp CBD gummy. You know, it's third party, lab tested and USDA organic to ensure safety and purity. Right now, Just listeners can save 30 off on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com the gist and use code the gist that's kornbread.com thegist or use code the gist Plestia El Akkad was a young, quite young woman living in Gaza on October 7. She had a background in journalism and soon gained fame, a lot of fame, by posting reports on Instagram, but also in various Western news channels, giving a diary of the destruction she saw around her. She soon saved her and her family's life, presumably by leaving Gaza, but is now out with an account of her background, her time there, and what's been going on since. The name of the book is the Eyes of Gaza. Plestio, welcome to the gist.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Thank you so much for having me and for this introduction.

[Mike Pesca]

So in terms of age, I think I'm right when I say you're 23. But you give your age in the book as four Israeli aggressions old.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Unfortunately, when you're born and raised in Gaza, your age isn't defined by numbers as 23. It's rather defined by your experience. And that experience, Israel gives it to you and it kind of isolates you from the experience of people in the rest of the world. Like I'm sure a person living in the uk, US or the Maldives wouldn't introduce themselves as. Oh, and for Israeli aggressions and the genocide old, for example.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So I want to know, is that, was that a journalistic or writerly turn of phrase or is it common for A Gazan to count their age like that?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Hmm, that's a good question. I think it was just me being me.

[Mike Pesca]

Right? So what were the four aggressions? What would we in America maybe call these? Are these the intifadas or others?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Unfortunately, history didn't start on October 7th. So being born and raised in Gaza, I witnessed a lot of Israeli aggression since I was young. The last One was in 2021. I was a university student. I was studying new media and journalism in Cyprus and it was Covid. So university was online. So I was like, let me take the risk and go back to Gaza. Judging that the university is online, even if the border is opened or closed, I can study online. Like it wouldn't affect my stud. And like I arrived to Gaza at 3 or 4am Something like that. And literally the same day, 7pm, an Israeli aggression that I believe lasted two weeks or 15 days or so. And now when I look at my Facebook post, which I believe I included in the book I used to write, today is the worst day of my life. Today is the last. Today feels like the last night. Last night was the worst night ever. And now when I go back and read what I wrote, I'm like, oh my God, I wish these nights were the worst night ever, because it keeps outdoing themselves. So right now we are actually witnessing the worst nights ever.

[Mike Pesca]

So what I want to do in this interview is ask you about your experience, of which you are an expert, and your journalism, especially your conception of journalism. So let's just start with this. Before the current war in Gaza, when you were a teenager, you qualified to study in Cyprus. Now, I think a lot of people in America might be surprised to know that there was some ability for some young Gazans to get out and study in other countries. Could you take me through the process of qualifying for such a visa? And then also what your thoughts were in accepting this visa.

[Plestia Alaquad]

First of all, thank you so much for shedding the light on that, because that was something I actually wanted to talk about. So the borders in Gaza, Israel controls the borders. Borders may open any minute, borders may close any minute. We used to have an airport, but the airport got bombed. So we don't have the privileges of just like packing our bag, booking a flight, and traveling whenever we want. I wish the process was as easy as that. So now talking before October 2023, when we wanted to travel, you need to just like apply, fill out forms and everything. And you need to put the reason for travel is it education. You need to put out all These reasons, then you go and you apply for your visa. Depending on the country you're going to like, either you apply for a Schengen visa, visa to Turkey, visa to Cyprus, visa to the US and so on, but applying for a visa to the US and the uk, you need to do the biometrics. I once wanted to apply for a visa to the US because for a camp I was supposed to go to, but to do my biometrics, then I need a permit to go to Jerusalem to be able to do it. So the process are really endless and complicated. But for Turkey and Cyprus visa, especially when you're a student and you have a student acceptance, it's easy. It's not that complicated. The complicated part is the borders being open and closed and being able to travel. And I just want to clarify that me traveling and studying abroad isn't the normal thing in Gaza. It's a privilege to be able to do that. It's not something common that everyone can do due to the border situation and due to how expensive it is. But I was lucky that I got granted a scholarship.

[Mike Pesca]

Did your classmates at your international school, did many of them choose this option?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yes, two of my classmates actually went with me. We got like a scholarship, we got accepted and we got the chance to study abroad. And other people who, like, we went to the same school with also got scholarships and the chance to study abroad. But I also have a lot of friends that studied in Brazil.

[Mike Pesca]

What was.

[Plestia Alaquad]

And they had a lot of friends that actually wanted to. Sorry. And they actually had a lot of friends that wanted to study abroad, but they didn't get that chance either because their visa got rejected. They weren't able to secure a scholarship. I know some people who were able to secure a scholarship, but their visa doesn't get accepted and so on. My brother, he got accepted in Canada, he's one year older than me, but his visa didn't get accepted the first time. So he had to take a gap year, then apply again for a visa and he got his visa on the second time. So the process isn't as easy. It's not like, oh my God, oh, Plastia studied abroad. Oh, that means cousins can study abroad. There's actually a lot of layers and process to it.

[Mike Pesca]

Was there anything that you could be taught that they couldn't be taught in Gaza for? I don't know. I could imagine a number of reasons why the free flow of information might be impinged in Gaza.

[Plestia Alaquad]

The only difference is when I'm in Cyprus and I have an exam on a Friday, I know I'll have an exam on Friday. But in Gaza, when they have an exam on Friday, they're not sure if they will actually end up having it or if Israel will decide to bomb them or to bomb the university or to start an aggression or what will happen. You know, like people in Gaza students, they were thinking that they were supposed to graduate last semester, and now all universities got bombed and they didn't graduate. That's not something that they knew would happen. So in Gaza, there's always uncertainty. You try to plan your days, but Saeed will always plan your days for you. Meanwhile, when you're abroad, you can actually study and learn more. Because when you know. When you know you have an exam, you know it will happen. When you have a lab, you know it will happen. But in Gaza, you're never sure if it will end up happening or not.

[Mike Pesca]

Tell me about your decision to. After your studies were done, either was it return to Gaza or stay because it was coinciding with the pandemic.

[Plestia Alaquad]

I wanted to go back to Gaza to help it. I always wanted to be a journalist. And when I graduated and they had all that knowledge, I wanted to go to Gaza and use that knowledge in Gaza and help show the world Gaza through my eyes and report on the stories, on people's stories. And to report in Gaza the way I want to report on it, not the way Western media reported on Gaza. So that was my thought process, wanting to go back to Gaza. And I remember having that conversation with my parents where they were like, at least stay abroad for a little while, do an internship, maybe like find jobs or anything, because it's hard to find jobs in Gaza as a journalist. Because in Gaza we all know that as a journalist, it's almost. You only work when there's aggressions or genocide, because that's the time where Western media become interested in Gaza. But when there isn't genocide or Israeli aggressions, they're not interested in in Gaza. And I always wanted to work in an international news outlet, not a local media outlet, because in Gaza we all know the local news. Even children know what's happening. So I wanted to make a difference and for my voice to reach to different people, not to reach the people of Gaza because they already know.

[Mike Pesca]

So you worked from reading the book I picked up, but I want to get the timelines right. You worked at a couple of journalism jobs for a few months each. But mostly it wasn't out in the field reporting, it was behind the desk reporting. And you Left each job because that was unsatisfying to you, Is that right?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yes. Oh, my God, that's so right. So when I graduated, I took different internships because obviously I need experience. I need to see, like, what's the media work industry like? And I. I think the only place I lasted, I lasted in for longer than three months was Press House. Like, I did an internship in a place in Arabic. Like, I was trying to. Also because I studied in English, so I wanted to, like, write articles in Arabic. I lasted for a month and I was like, no, I can'. Sit on a chair for eight hours a day. Then I'm like, maybe it's the place. Let me try another place. I tried in another place. It was like writing articles and translating, but it was also me sitting. But, like, there's a lot happening in the world. I don't want to sit in a. On a chair in an office and write. Like, I want to experience firsthand and report.

[Mike Pesca]

So you. Well, you tell me, would you say you left journalism and worked in HR or did you always, through Instagram or your own posting, keep a foot in the world of disseminating your thoughts to the public?

[Plestia Alaquad]

I never left journalism. I was multitasking when I took the role of being an hr, because it was because I'm a journalist and I loved interviewing people and talking to them. That's why, that's why I tried this role. And I was always, like, freelancing and writing articles, working as a social media manager for Press House Palestine, posting the news, posting what's happening, and so on. So I was always doing a lot of stuff at the same time.

[Mike Pesca]

Here's a question I bet most people don't ask you, but what's HR like in Gaza? Do you have to go through. Do people have to go through, like, harassment trainings? How does. What are the things you have to do other than registering people for payroll?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's definitely the first time I get asked this question. So it's different depending depending on where you work. Like, if you're working as a teacher in a school, if you're working with a local news agency, an international news agency, an ngo, it depends on where you're working. I was working in a. In a marketing company, so I'll speak about that. So the process was like, oh, we need a graphic designer, for example. So the designer makes and post that. We need a graphic designer. Then people start reaching out. And for me, it was crazy. We once posted that we need a graphic designer, and I thought like, okay, 10 or 20 people will apply in literally 24 hours. 200 people applied and I had to go through their applications, their portfolio and I was like, oh my God, they're all good. Like, what am I supposed to do right now? Like, I wish we can hire them all. So we started doing interviews. Then we started doing like, because it's graphic design, we started like, we gave them this design idea and for them to like do the design now. Then we chose three people and they worked and then HR whenever it was a small company so it was like quite, quite a chill. But whenever there is any disagreements or anything, I was this, this person who made sure that the workflow isn't affected because of employees. If there's like any touches between anyone, like I wanted to make sure everything is okay and all right.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, right. So you made sure that people followed the rules and the workplace flowed freely. By the way, were those 200 applicants Gazans or were they, was it international?

[Plestia Alaquad]

No, no, no, it was the locals. So they were all Gazans and they were all young. Like most of them were fresh graduates and some of them applied and they were really good but they were still studying. So I was like, it's not possible because this is a full time job and we need you on site. Not remotely or anything. But I was like super happy to see how passionate people are. But I was super sad at the same time to see how many talents there are in Gaza but there isn't enough job places for them.

[Mike Pesca]

So this brings me to my next set of questions, which is you're describing a situation that's in some ways normal, but in some ways certainly not interrupted by the uncertainty of bombing. Let's say there are descriptions in the book of a Gaza that you loved and things about going or details about going to the Mediterranean Sea. And yet at the same time, Gaza was often even before the war, described as the world's largest outdoor prison or a concentration camp. Norman Finkelstein, who's a US professor, although he's not affiliated with college currently has frequently called it that. What's the best description of Gaza, the most accurate from a Gazan before the war?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Open air prison. And this is the, this is what I say and this is what I see often said about Gaza and the reason it is an open air prison because it's 300. Gaza is 365km squared, yet there's around 2 million of us living there and we're almost trapped the whole time because there's Israel bombed the airport obviously and controlling the borders, who comes in, in, who comes out, what comes in, what comes out. So you don't have that freedom of movement. But at the same time we're not in a cage, but we're in prison in a way. So that's why I find open air prison accurate. But what is mind blowing for me is how us Gazans, we made paradise from that. We made that open air prison be paradise in our eyes.

[Mike Pesca]

There you go. So it's a paradise within a prison.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Exactly. And I don't know how these two sentences, these two words or adjectives can exist in the same sentence, but it's just, it's just us, you know?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Tell me about October 7th and the days afterwards. You quickly gained fame. You write about this in your book Day five or so, you wake up and now you're famous. How did people find you as, because people like NBC and the Washington Post, how did they find you as the person to tell the stories?

[Plestia Alaquad]

I was always trying my best to post about what's happening in Gaza during October 2023 onwards, to post my daily life, to post what's going on, to post the stories. And I never treated Gazans as news. I always made sure to treat us as stories and for the world to know our names, to know what's happening in Gaza, how are we spending our day, how are we spending our time? And because I didn't want the world to see us as headlines and the more I posted, the more followers I gained, the more awareness was raised, the more was raised, the more media outlets started reaching out.

[Mike Pesca]

So when you were talking about the things that you were actually seeing, that's a first person account. But you were also asked to talk about incidents that were going on around you, but maybe not, not within your scope of vision. And one was what you called a massacre at Al Ali Hospital, which has been, I think credibly disputed as actually an errant rocket attack from within Gaza. So my question is, what did you do in terms of assuring the credibility of your reports? And if new facts emerged, did you in your role as a reporter, seek to correct that?

[Plestia Alaquad]

I was there, by the way, during the hospital, after the bombing happened, the second day, the next day I went and my colleagues, journalists were there. We took pictures ourselves and we saw what happened.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, but this doesn't mean you would know where the rocket emanated from. So that's my question.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yeah, but there are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are reports, there are studies that shows and as a journalist, I obviously always factor check what's happening. And I believe anyone who's still getting manipulated by Israeli propaganda, it's just they just want to be blind and not believe the truth.

[Mike Pesca]

So even with that, do you still maintain it was the Israeli forces who launched that rocket?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Who's launching all these rockets for the past two years? Who's starving Palestinians and children to death? Who's using starvation as a weapon? Literally? Who's doing all of that? Who's bombing the education system?

[Mike Pesca]

Right. But on this specific attack, first of all, obviously there are rockets going in and out of of Gaza. Not commenting.

[Plestia Alaquad]

After that attack, after that attack, how many hospitals got bombed? How many injured people got targeted? How many doctor was taken? How do you say it in English? Detainee detained. Right? Yeah. It's like your question is making it sound as if that was the only incident of a hospital for the past two years. We're seeing now, we're seeing how even medical supplies are barely allowed to be let in Gaza. We're seeing how the injured are dying waiting for medicine to get in.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so I want to just make sure I understand your point on this. Is your point that the sheer tonnage of the devastation is almost entirely felt by the Gazans. And therefore this is the part that that attack, that initial attack must have been by the Israelis because that was the pattern so far. No. Or is it more that if you weigh everything, even if that attack was by the Israelis, think about all that happen. Is that what you're saying?

[Plestia Alaquad]

What I'm saying is there is reports about what happened that day. That's why I wrote it was by the Israeli forces. And if it wasn't by them, according to the Israeli propaganda, if it wasn't by them, then why for the past two years they continued to bomb hospitals? That's what I'm saying. Because your question made it sound as if that was the only day where a hospital got bombed. That was the first time a hospital got bombed, not the only time.

[Mike Pesca]

So think of the best way, if I'm saying it inexactly, to answer the question of who bombed that particular hospital, where that rocket came from. That's what I'm asking. And then if new. So you've credited that to Israeli propaganda saying it wasn't Israel. But I want to know if you credit the Israeli, but also the Western media, Washington Post, New York Times, AP reporting on that.

[Plestia Alaquad]

I take my news from Washington Post and in New York Times to begin with.

[Mike Pesca]

You've written for the Washington Post, though.

[Plestia Alaquad]

I didn't write for them. I got interviewed by Them.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay. I thought you had to. You've written for the Guardian and you've contributed to NBC News.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yes, I've written for the Guardian, Australia for the national, and I've written a couple of other interviews that are supposed to be out next month.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So NBC News is one source that will say that Al Ali rocket attack emanated from Israel, which is not to say anything about any of the other ones. I just wanted to ask you about journalism. So another question I have is in the book, you refer to the Israelis as the iof, the Israeli Occupation Forces. Is this just the same forces as the idf? You're just calling it a different name.

[Plestia Alaquad]

What does IDF mean?

[Mike Pesca]

Israeli Defense Forces and what Israel doing.

[Plestia Alaquad]

In Gaza right now?

[Mike Pesca]

Sure, I understand what you're saying, but my question, the reason I raise this is not to criticize you coming up with your own way to describe what's actually going on. But part of journalism is to have a shared or agreed upon vocabulary.

[Plestia Alaquad]

So you can agreed on that vocabulary. Who agreed that? Their defense forces. What are they defending? They're defending themselves. From who? Educate me. Explain to me.

[Mike Pesca]

No, I don't want to right now. Get into. If the occupation or the defense is the way to look at it. I'm asking you, if we use different words or words that would not lead to a common understanding, how can as the building blocks for our understanding. Don't you see, or do you see that it gets in the way of the ultimate goal of journalism, which is clarity for the world? I mean, another way to look at this is that in all of Western media, we would always report on ISIS or Daesh. And what ISIS stands for is a goal that, that almost everyone in the Western media would think is illegitimate. What the actual acronym of ISIS stands for, but that is the name of the forces, so we call it ISIS so everyone understands what we're talking about. This is my point.

[Plestia Alaquad]

My answer remains the same. When someone is occupying a land, we call them occupier. That's why it's iof, not idf. Because who are they defending themselves from when they're starving babies right now, when they're killing women, when they're bombing houses? How is that defending? So why am I supposed to call them Israel Defense, not occupation?

[Mike Pesca]

Right. And so I could say, why should I call it ISIS if I totally disagree and think it's illegitimate that they're advocating for the liberation of the Levant or what the ISIS acronym stands for?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Well, you call it what you want. I'm not here to talk about isis. I'm talking about isis.

[Mike Pesca]

But journalists have to call. Journalists have to call it something that. That is understandable.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Did you see any other about them? Did you see me mentioning them?

[Mike Pesca]

What, the iof? Yeah, it's in the book.

[Plestia Alaquad]

I'm talking about ISIS because you brought it up. Meanwhile, I'm here to talk about the IOF and what's happening in Palestine.

[Mike Pesca]

I thought it was just an analogy. That is exactly parallel the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. I could say, well, they're not the Islamic State. They have aspirations to the Islamic State. I'm not calling it that. And down that road leads. We get to call things whatever we call them based on something other than what the thing is. Let me ask you about genocide.

[Plestia Alaquad]

What are you trying to do here exactly?

[Mike Pesca]

It's just confusing in that IOF question what I'm trying to do. Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to ask you. First of all, I did not know if you literally meant the IDF and you were just using a different phrase. I'm somewhat familiar with at least the English writing of many people who back the Palestinian cause to different degrees. And I also know that sometimes the word Israel won't be written, but Zionist entity will be used as a standing. You write Israel. Okay. I'm not giving you credit or discredit for that. I'm just saying this is a choice to communicate to the reader. And I wanted clarity on what the IOF choice was.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yes, of course, clarity is important. I did call them the iof. I did call it a genocide, not a conflict. I did call them occupiers because I learned in school that a conflict is a disagreement. So it's confusing to me why Western journalists are using the word conflict in the context of a genocide.

[Mike Pesca]

Now, when did you begin calling it a genocide?

[Plestia Alaquad]

It was clear from the beginning that it was a genocide. It was clear when we saw everything that's happening in Gaza, it was like nothing we've experienced before.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, so in the book, I think on October 18th is when you say this is now a genocide. I saw an interview.

[Plestia Alaquad]

It was. Honestly now looking back, now looking back at it, it was even a genocide way before that. But that day I realized that the situation's only getting worse from then.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, well, in an interview you did with a British breakfast show on October 12, so even before then, you called it a genocide. My question is, is the criteria as you define it, of genocide just based on the scope of the destruction?

[Plestia Alaquad]

No, I wish it was on the scope of destruction, but it's on the scope of killing Palestinians, killing babies, starving them, bombing them, burning them alive, and tents, you know.

[Mike Pesca]

Right, so the horrors of the war. The horrors of the war is what defines it as a genocide? No, tell me.

[Plestia Alaquad]

The killing of innocent people, the starvation, the ethnic cleansing, that is what is genocide.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so there was no starvation on October 12th.

[Plestia Alaquad]

And that's maybe pedantic, but yeah, there wasn't a starvation, but there was killing, there was bombing.

[Mike Pesca]

So you're defining a genocide as the killing of civilians.

[Plestia Alaquad]

I'm defining a genocide by everything Israel is doing right now in Gaza.

[Mike Pesca]

But what they were doing on October.

[Plestia Alaquad]

12Th or 18th, they were also killing people.

[Mike Pesca]

That's it. Your definition of a genocide is the wanton killing of civilians?

[Plestia Alaquad]

No, it's not as simple as that. Israel is doing more than that.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, but on October 12th or 18th, when you said it was a genocide, I don't mean to be pedantic, but, but so the definition, you know, my.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Definition doesn't stop in Israel killing civilians.

[Mike Pesca]

I'm sorry, say again? Because we talked over each other and that's. I shouldn't do that.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Exactly. I said my definition of a genocide isn't only the killing of civilian people. And history didn't start on. History didn't start in October 2023. What's happening in Gaza right now is only a continuation of what Sail has been doing since. Since Nakba, the catastrophe in 1948.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so do you think that looking back, it would have been accurate to call what was going on in Gaza a genocide? Even when it was a paradise within a prison?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Israel made it a genocide. Israel is the one genociding people in Gaza right now.

[Mike Pesca]

Right now. But I'm talking about when we first should have. Have begun using, in your estimation, when we first should have begun using the label genocide was you first used it, as far as I could tell, October 12th. Then you said you started talking about the Nakba. Say even going back, we could have used this phrase. I don't wanna, I just wanna correctly describe when you thought, when you think the word genocide was accurately, should have been accurately applied. Is it even before October 7th?

[Plestia Alaquad]

October 2023 is when Israel genocided Gaza. But I'm saying what happening is a continuation of Nakba 1948, where Israel was also displacing Palestinians.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay.

[Plestia Alaquad]

And when I called Gaza, when I called Gaza, it's an open air prison, but we made a paradise out of it. That was our life before October 2023, which also wasn't normal. There was a lot of limitations we can't travel whenever we want. We can't do this, we can't do that. But we tried to do our best with whatever we had in Gaza because that's who we are as people.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, now, I think I understand. The Nakba was a catastrophe, literally ongoing through decades and decades. There were further degradations and human rights violations. And then in October 2023, soon after October 7th, the word genocide began to be applicable in your estimates. Is that right?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Whatever you say.

[Mike Pesca]

No, not whatever I say. Am I getting it wrong or right? It's.

[Plestia Alaquad]

You're just super fixated about the word genocide, about the date when we started calling it this, when we started calling that, rather than being fixated about what straight is actually doing for us to use the word genocide, you know, and.

[Mike Pesca]

The genocide started days into the war. That's what you said. Okay.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yeah, that's it.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay. Thank you. You have put. Wait. There was one other thing I wanted to ask, to go back early on in the book and even earlier in this conversation, I could have asked this. You travel to Cyprus and you talk about all the complications in getting a visa, and you do say Hamas also has to approve. That's my question. How much of life was defined or constricted by Hamas even before October of 2015?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Everything that we were facing, really, and we're complaining about is because of Israel, not because of the government in Gaza, because the government and what's happening. That's something we Palestinians can deal with. But the real problem here is the occupation.

[Mike Pesca]

But you do say Hamas had a role. So how much was Hamas affecting one's life in or restricting one's life as one lived one's life?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Before October 20th, the real restriction was having occupation Israel.

[Mike Pesca]

Will you ever criticize Hamas? Can you ever criticize Hamas?

[Plestia Alaquad]

I'm here to talk about the occupation and how it's killing Palestinians in Gaza and what it's doing.

[Mike Pesca]

So will you ever, in your journalism have any criticism for Hamas?

[Plestia Alaquad]

My criticism right now is for the occupation and what they're doing. Either I want to criticize Hamas or not. Either I want to criticize any government in Gaza or not. That's an issue that we Palestinians can deal with, but what we're dealing with right now is the occupation.

[Mike Pesca]

So are you a critic or a journalist? Because I would think a journalist would take into account all the factors at play.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Okay, you don't see me as a journalist as you like.

[Mike Pesca]

I didn't say that. You're definitely doing a form of journalism. I'm trying to Dig down on what you actually think. I did ask you, can you criticize Hamas? You answered, right now, I'm just criticizing Israel. Does this imply that maybe there is one day after all this passes when your journalism will take you to look at if Hamas factored at all into.

[Plestia Alaquad]

The conflict, the genocide that is happening because there's occupation. So who am I criticizing is the occupation and it's Israel? My answer is the same.

[Mike Pesca]

Is the idea, I'll leave this alone after this. Is the idea that you don't want to criticize Hamas for whatever reason because it would take focus on what you want to do, or is the idea that you can't criticize Hamas?

[Plestia Alaquad]

I didn't say I want to, I don't want to or what I wanted to do. What I said is what we're facing is because of the occupation. So what I'm criticizing and talking about is the occupation.

[Mike Pesca]

Can you criticize Hamas if you wanted to?

[Plestia Alaquad]

I want to criticize the occupation. I'm not here like, I'm not here to talk about Hamas. I understand how Western journalists are obsessed with Hamas.

[Mike Pesca]

We are. I don't know if we're obsessed, but there is this horrible war where tens of thousands of people dead. And so what you try to do is from all sources figure out what's going on. Now, I don't expect all sources to be quote, unquote, even handed, but what you do try to do is to try to assess how this happened. And in the history of warfare, there's never been a war where there's only one side who factored into the war or factored into the tens of thousands of deaths.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yeah, yeah. Speaking of that, it's interesting how Hindrab, a literal child, a small child that got shot 355 times, was referred to by the media that like, as you're saying, they try to be like their journalists, not biased and so on two sides and they refer to her as a woman. So I don't understand, what are you trying to do? Like, I can sense the tone. You're trying to discredit me as a journalist or like make it sound as if I'm being biased or something. But you're doing that with the wrong, wrong person. Literally.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, we're all biased.

[Plestia Alaquad]

You're saying that to the wrong person.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, we all have bias. So I am asking you about how you define your journalism and go about it. So you're saying that the six year old Hind Rajab was called a woman by Western outlets.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Yes. Who I don't remember their name. It was multiple of outlets, maybe two or three. You can look it up. You can find it online.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I'm seeing many reports from BBC and New York Times and other places saying that she was 6. I do take your reporting and your firsthand accounts and I was very interested in everything that you saw. So maybe we can end with this. What unique perspective do you have that you would like people to know about Gaza? That maybe they don't and maybe they should?

[Plestia Alaquad]

People should know that there's around 2 million people living in Gaza and Gaza is 365km squared and it's already small. And right now with Israel asking people to keep evacuating from a place to another, a place to another, that is almost impossible because isn't enough space. When you keep telling people to evacuate, evacuate. And these people know for a fact that no place is safe. And they, and they will keep getting killed and targeted even while they're evacuating, even while they're moving. So I just want to people, I just want people to understand how tiny and small Gaza is and put it into perspective with everything that's happening, especially the evacuation and the displacement and how overpopulated some areas in Gaza became right now with Israel asking them to keep moving and moving and evacuating.

[Mike Pesca]

El Akkad is the author of the Eyes of Gaza A Diary of Resilience. Thank you for being on the show. I'm going to quote the National Institutes of Health. Did you know? As many as 30 million men in the US experience ED. It's more common than a bad night's sleep. You know, if you get ed, that can also lead to a bad night's sleep and stress the next day. Just not feeling good about yourself. And you don't deserve that. What you deserve is hims. HIMS makes getting access to treatment simple so you can feel like yourself again without stress or awkwardness or paying too much attention to NIH statistics. Confidence should not be complicated. It should be earned. And through hims, you could skip the question marks and the guesswork of everything in the bedroom and dealing with the medical system and just attack the problem. Personalized prescription treatments for ed. They have hard mints or sex RX plus climax control if prescribed. The prescription process is very straightforward. And it isn't one size fits all care that forgets you in the waiting room. It's your health and goals put first with real medical providers making sure that you get what you need to get results. Think of HIMS as the digital front door that gets you back to your old self. To get simple online access to personalized affordable care for ED, hair loss, weight loss and more. Visit himss.com the gist that's that's himss.com thegist for your free online visit himss.com thegist actual price will depend on product and subscription plan. Featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription requires the website for details, restrictions and important safety information. Morning Zoe. Got donuts.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me.

[Plestia Alaquad]

So Dana oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Mike Pesca]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Nice. Jeffrey, you heard heard them.

[Mike Pesca]

T Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for lunch?

[Plestia Alaquad]

Dude, my work here is done.

[Mike Pesca]

The 24 month credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and 35 device connection charge. Credits ended balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 a new line minimum 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Ooklove speed test intelligence data 182023 is@t mobile.com and just a postscript before we get to the spiel. Yeah, I know there was a lot of prescript to that too, but you heard that message where Plestia Alaqua had said that Western media called Hind Rahab a woman. So I searched and I could only find one reference to this happening and one critique, one written critique of this happening. So there was an article in the Guardian that referred to a live segment on CNN after protesters took over a campus hall at Columbia University and they renamed it Hines Hall. And then Casey Hunt who was hosting said, and we have this clip, we could play it quickly.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Banners have been hung from the hall. They read.

[Mike Pesca]

They read Hins hall and Intifada.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Hind is a reference to a woman who was killed in Gaza.

[Mike Pesca]

That's what she said. Hind is a reference to a woman who was killed in Gaza. And then I think after a break or as the Guardian said a few minutes after this, Hunt interjected, I do.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Want to note earlier I referred to.

[Mike Pesca]

The child that they are that is.

[Plestia Alaquad]

On that banner, Hind as a woman. She's not. She was a five year old girl in Palestine. I just think that's important to note.

[Mike Pesca]

That's it. The only reference to someone making the mistake. And I don't even have to get into a critique of why this was raised or the importance of this being raised. You just heard it, you're probably confused. What are we talking about? Hind Rahad that's it. One article in the Guardian pointing to one instance where a CNN host misspoke for maybe one minute or two and now the spiel. So I was researching U Thant, the former Secretary General of the United nations, because we're having on who son Lulu and actually that's not how names work. And much of this is about how names work in Myanmar, Burma, or how they don't work when they get out of the Burmese language. Let me go on a little tangent here for a second. Ooh Tant. His last name is spelled T H a n t or at least it is in English, the English version of Burmese. So you might think that Ooh T h a n t would be thunt because you're using the thumb. And I've never met a Myanmar in and I certainly do not want to insult the proud tradition of the Burmese, but I just wondered if a Burmese person would say, you idiot, it's not U Thant, it's U taunt. And one of the reasons that I thought this is every time I heard the name, your grandfather U Thant was the Secretary General of the United nations at a particularly tumultuous time. That's from an Asia Society interview with U than Son, who she calls Thornt. When I heard the name, it was always taunt. Here is contemporaneous audio of then Mayor John Lindsay giving the man an award I.

[Plestia Alaquad]

Solemnly swear to exercise.

[Mike Pesca]

So it's odd to me, it's just odd that we take a language with a script unlike our own, put the h after the t but then then expect everyone to pronounce it just like a t. Why not just keep it as a t? And here's a tangent within a tangent. But you never know what the th means on the international stage, do you? For instance, the ruling party of Qatar are the Al Thanis, A l dash T H a N I s. But you also can't say the leader of Qatar is Al Thani because they're all Al Thanis over there. There's Tamin Bel Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani. And then there's his he's the leader. Then there's the father, Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, same name, but then there's also his brother. And then there's the prime minister, Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdul Rahim bin Jasmine Al Thani. And then there's Hakkad Hamid bin Khalifa Al Thani. And of course, his mother, Mn Moussa bin Nasser. Thank you, Mom. All right, back to my main Ooh thont point before we took this U turn. Who really is U Thant? Like what's the U stand for, if any? Or is the U just for Ooh? Which, by the way, since we're doing transliteration, why is it a U O O would maybe communicate the ooh that he's apparently going for? In my research, I came across the fact that Ooh of the U Saunter Tant fame is not a name, it's an honorific. The letter U, which we say Ooh is in Burmese. Mr. So this guy Thont, possibly Taunt, Secretary General of the United Nations. That's straightforward. Secretary General Taunt. When we were calling him U Thant, we were basically just saying Mr. Taunt, Mr. Boutrose Boutros Golly would be cut so short if we could eliminate all those Boutroses and just call him Mr. Golly or the United States presidents. Perhaps you've heard of Mr. Bush and also his father, Mr. Bush. So u Thant led me to, in my research to another Oo, another Mr. Anew Oo knew who knew about Oo knew. So of course I had to tweet just that, ooh nu, who knew? But then I started to dig into the politics of OO Nu, which is spelt to us in English, U space nu. And these politics are fascinating because U nu was an anti fascist and so many Burmese and people today are antifascists, aren't they? But then the antifascists of BURMA in the 1950s, remember, they considered the Japanese, I think quite accurately, fascists. They were against them. They were subjugated by them. They didn't want them anymore. So they were these antifascists. They didn't wear black. They just went around decrying and acting out against fascism. But as happens so often among anti fascists or really among many political parties, especially, I'm going to say political parties that define itself in opposition of someone else or something else, there was a split, a fissure, a fraction, and the two parties were called the Clean Party and who knew led the Clean Fascists and then or sometimes called the Union Parties party, the Clean Anti Fascist People's Freedom League. And that was led by ooh New and then the other league was this stable league, the stable AFP FL and the split between clean and stable. Unlike Hercules, whose mission, one of his missions was to clean the Aegean stables, the split was the Cleans were broadly speaking, they were very religious. Who knew would go on fast 45 days, come back with a new policy. Who knew was more pure to the goals and the ideals of Burmese antifascism, where the stable guys they were more yes, we like the goals, but we need power. Power is important. So they were more. Maybe they would consider themselves more the realist. And the same thing is going on today. I listened to The Ezra Klein vs. TA Nehisi Coates debate debate and the Ezra Klein part of it was the hey, let's win some elections faction. This used to be called among some people the David Shore ism. That's a little niche. But the Haylets win some election side and maybe, you know, not compromise greatly, but do the things it takes to win an election. That was contrasted with the Ta Nehisi Coates side, which was the no, we must be true to ourselves side. We must be true to our principles. And maybe the stable side is like, you know, they'll never vote for you if you're only true to your principles. And so maybe the clean side is they'll never vote for you anyway if you're not true to your principles. People will smell that out. So that's the practical version of being idealistic. And I think Ta Nehisi and a lot of people who certainly hate Ezra Klein think that you've got to be true to your principles. That's why they're called principles. Also, they convince themselves being true to your principles is ultimately an election winner. And Ezra says, I'd wish they were, but he's the stable side. He says, ah, if they were, this wouldn't even be an argument. We have to not be untrue, not violate our principles. But you know, I've looked at things. They're not voting for us now. And if your principles are, say women are, whoever women say they are, it's just not flying in a lot of districts. And that might be totally unfair, but this is what the stable say say. And we know how the cleans react. And this brings me to a point that I also made on Twitter, because after writing about who knew, I felt like I had put up Something of substance on the pesky me Twitter account. Which brings me to a very fascinating similarity to German elections. Tim Skellig, who follows me, pointed this out that the German Greens had a split too. And they were called the real ows. I'm sure it's pronounced better in German. Reallos the realistic people and the fundies. Not that they were fun. They're Greens, they're not that fun. The fundamentalists. And this again, throughout time and political parties we have this fissure between the we've got to be true to ourselves versus the we've got to win elections time and the counter arguments are always the same. No, it is through being true to ourselves that we will win elections versus no, that's not working. I wouldn't have brought this up if we were winning elections and being perfectly true to ourselves. Oh, by the way, let's go back to Burma. What happened when the anti fascists had this split? Well, the Cleans won. The Cleans cleaned up. I read a Time magazine or story from the time it said it described, who knew as quote, a moon faced politician that wouldn't fly now. He'd go, he'd meditate. It's like an Ayahuasca retreat. Maybe an Aaron Rodgers darkness retreat. Come back, have policies, people loved him. And the Cleans really cleaned up versus the stables. And this lasted four years. And then they were deposed in a military coup, which I'm not saying is going to happen now. I'm not saying that they're going to change the country's name and entire orientation towards reality and kill a lot of people and become one of the most poor backward states in the region. I'm not saying that if the Cleans or the Fundies or the stables or the real those, I'm not saying if any of those win. I think the United States is in a bit better position than Burma was before it became Myanmar. But I will say that none of this really had to happen. Maybe the Cleans had the better part of the argument, maybe the stables were too willing to compromise. But you got to think it might have turned out differently had there been a united antifascist front in Burma that would have been more potent. And now you knew. And that's it for today's show. Corey Warr is the producer of the Gist. Ashley Khan does our coordination of production, which is one way to say it. Jeff Craig runs our socials. Kathleen Sykes helps me with the Gist list. Michelle Pesca helps, more than helps, really orchestrates it all from above. Pulling the strings, sort of a Svengalian robes. When she wears a robe, a bathrobe. Sometimes it's white. It's not black and thanks for listening. High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a Sofi personal loan. A Sofi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into 1:1 low fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's S-O-F I.com p o w E R Loans originated By SoFi Bank NA Member FDIC Terms and conditions apply. MLS 696891 Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. 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