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- [00:04]
Mike Pesca
It's Friday, July 11, 2025 from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca and the French phrase of the day is esprit de l'. Escalier. Esprit de lascalier. The spirit of the staircase. It is that phenomenon where you think of the perfect thing to say, only you're out the door and walking down the stairs. In America, it's sometimes known as they're out of view at the jerk store, to quote a Seinfeld episode.
- [00:27]
Tony Toast
So.
- [00:27]
Mike Pesca
So it happened to me and it will happen to me in the interview, but it also happened to me as I was a guest on the Slate political gabfest yesterday. Thank you so much, David Plotz, for having me on again. I think it was only the second time during season two that I've been on that show, which I listen to just about every week. And there was another replacement summer guest cause Emily and John were out. And it was Susan Glasser, whose work I've known of for a while and I've read some of her books. She now writes for the New Yorker. She was at Politico for a long time and we were talking about pretty much the defeat deficiencies of Donald Trump. It was a version of the discussion Jeff and Karine and I had on not even Mad. It's nice as a pundit where like the Native American, you could use all parts of the insight buffalo. So I laid it all out there and yes, Donald Trump is very, very, very silly man and very impetuous and doesn't have a long time horizon. But I did perhaps in an effort to bend over backwards a bit, say something like there is a bit of scleroticism in foreign policy and maybe or two things that we could give the guy credit for. So I'm going to play the end of that statement. And then Susan comes in with she was being very nice, but she pretty much dismissed my premise. And this brings us to the esprit de la scalier. Here we go. The normal way of doing foreign policy that both the Republican and Democratic establishments adhered to did need some shaking up, I think. And he got some. I mean, he probably thinks he's some great negotiator, but he got some positive outcomes by being that chaos agent who for instance, plausibly goes into a Naito meeting and saying, you guys have to quote, unquote, pay more. We know it's a percentage of their foreign policy. And when the Biden administration, everyone before them, asked nicely, Naito wouldn't do it. And then when J.D. vance comes in and says, we really mean it, and by the way, we hate you guys, that happens. That changes.
- [02:25]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, so that's actually not true. See, this is a great example. It's not your fault, Mike. But it's like a great example of Donald Trump and his incredible. What he's great at doing is bullshit spin. What he's great at doing is creating an alternate reality and getting millions of millions of people to buy into it. Even the people.
- [02:44]
Mike Pesca
So from that I answered and it's all very civil and yes, I know you weren't the silly people like me who are bamboozled by Donald Trump. I know you weren't blaming me for so stupid. But I countered that there is a lot of evidence that it was specifically Donald Trump and his constant clamoring to raise the levels of funding that all the Naito countries give Naito. After all, Ukraine was invaded in 2022 and the mandatory funding levels didn't raise during the Biden administration after Putin had invaded. And of course they wouldn't have raised without the Putin invasion. But he was talking about this a long time. And then I laid on her a quote by Gideon Rose, who I know that she knows, very esteemed person with the Council of Foreign Relations. And Gideon Rose. I had read about him in a New Yorker piece, a New Yorker piece. She does work for the New Yorker, where he said, you know, during the Bush administration, during the Biden administration, all those ambassadors and diplomats would come through and everyone say, yes, very nice speech, Mr. Ambassador, and do nothing about funding. And then J.D. vance comes through and opens up a can of appellation, actually Rust belt whoop ass on everyone. And you know, things do happen again. Wouldn't it happened without the invasion. But you see how long this is. And I'm paraphrasing Gideon Rose. All I should have done instead of quoting or paraphrasing Gideon Rose at the end of an article I read in the New Yorker was to say, well, I read a contradiction to what you're saying, staff writer for the New Yorker, in this piece by Josh Yaffa in the New Yorker headlined How Donald Trump Got NATO to pay up. That's what I was trying to argue that in some small way perhaps, because the New Yorker does have a lot of fact checkers. Donald Trump got NATO to pay up. The whole episode's good. And I recommend that you listen, just as I recommend you listen to not even mad and of course recommend. I think it's the implication why you're here that you Listen to my interview with Tony Toast. He is the showrunner for Poker Face, which is the Natasha Leone show on Peacock Season 2. And here is my esprit de les galier with Tony Toast. And we get into a lot of things, but one thing I just failed to mention was based on this plot point on episode two of this season.
- [05:03]
Tony Toast
This right here is a 1969 Plymouth Barracuda Limited edition original engine, windshield wipers.
- [05:09]
Mike Pesca
It just won't start. But hey, that's why I got this rag. It is. I would call it somewhat coincidental that I know someone who has a deep connection to a 1969 Plymouth Barracuda. In fact, it was his womb of sorts. Yes, I was born inside a 1969 Plymouth Barracuda. And when I was talking to Tony for the video for this episode, behind me on the wall is the license plate to that 1969 Plymouth Barracuda. I could have fished into my desk, pulled out the Chrysler car keys to the 1969 Plymouth Barracuda. That was a plot point on his show and I mentioned it. Esprit de la scalier. But there's a lot more to get to with Tony Toast. Up next, are you buried under non stop meetings and something important happens and you forgot wait, what was discussed? Fireflies is your AI teammate. Boom. Pops up, is on top of things. So damn useful. You don't even have to prod it. You don't have to feed it coffee to wake it up. We're all trying to figure out how to work smarter and not harder. And this is where Fireflies come in. Just say, hey Fireflies. Boom, it's there. Like I say, boom, it's there. Hey Fireflies. Maybe if you're in a meeting while listening to the show now and I just said, hey Fireflies. You got Firefly. It's good. You'll be better off for it. Fireflies are the number one AI teammate that transcribe, summarizes and analyzes your conversation so you get the most out of every meeting. It's a smarter way to work, as I said. And it seamlessly integrates with the tools you already rely on. It has integrations across more than 60 apps. Apps like Zoom, Google, Meet, Slack, Asana, Zapier and your CRM. You know some of the things it provides are real time and up to date web search, shareable sound bites. I like that. Timestamp notes that allow you to pinpoint key moments. That is important. And bookmarks. What are you waiting for? Join the over 500,000 companies already using Fireflies. Hey, Fireflies. And right now, when you sign up for a yearly Fireflies subscription, you get your first two months free. Just go to Fireflies. AI/the gist. That's right. Two months free. When you go to Fireflies. Dot AI/the gist. That's Fireflies. AI/the gist. So summer's in full swing. You're like me. Hey, let's brush up and spruce up the closet. Spruce. Not being a summer tree, but you get it. Let's dandelion the closet. I don't want to waste money on clothes that I will only wear once or for a season. And I was talking to my wife and she agrees that Quince Quint's clothes are timeless. They feel luxurious, they look elevated, and the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price. Let me put that another way. The quality is really high. The price is super affordable. European linens. 100% European linen starting at $30. Washable silk dresses and skirts. If you are of the dress and skirt wearing variety. Soft cotton sweaters. I have a Quint sweater. It's green. It's like a hunter green. I've worn it in, I think in the video I did with Robbie Hoffman, one of the funny you should mention videos. I think it looks good. I think it looks really good. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And we want you to know they work with factories that are safe, ethical, responsible, and premium fabrics that are also safe, ethical and responsible to make the fabrics be responsible. So I have my Quint's stuff. I love it. I think you'll love it too. They got some great shorts, some European shorts. You might see me sporting them. Not squirting them, but sporting them around. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-.com the gist to get free shipping and 365 day returns with quince.com/the gist. Poker Face Season 2 is out now on Peacock. It's the ongoing story of Charlie, played by Natasha Leone, who is a human bullshit detector. In fact, there somewhere out there, as a cut of her saying bullshit to 25 different guest stars on this mystery of the week type show, we interviewed the showrunners for season one. There's a different show runner for season two. He's Tony Toast. He has a Background in Poetics, and also he's out with a new movie in August called Americana. Tony, welcome to the gist.
- [09:58]
Tony Toast
Thank you so much. Happy to be here.
- [10:00]
Mike Pesca
So what was your relationship to season one? Just a viewer.
- [10:03]
Tony Toast
Yeah, just a fan. Just a fan of the show. A little bit jealous that they got to that throwback 70s detective character thing before I did because I was trying to kind of cook up my own version of it. Yeah. And so I was just a fan and then found out that they were, you know, looking for somebody to run season two. And so I threw my hat in the ring.
- [10:26]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. And do you analyze when you got in and you, I'm sure, made your pitch and they hired you because you understood the show? I think most people who love the show Will Fell about Natasha Leone and the major conceit that she's a human bullshit detector. And there's a lot of humor to it, but to me, the show wouldn't exist if all the mysteries weren't really tight. And I think that is either taken for granted or gets brushed over. But did that jump out at you as one of the core elements to the show's appeal?
- [11:02]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah, it's a. Yeah, it's a really smartly constructed mystery show with interesting, you know, inventive murders. And then. Yeah, and then you have to, you know, it has to be a tough enough nut to crack that you're interested in seeing Charlie kind of, you know, crack that nut, because since it's not. It's not a who did it? You know, and so, yeah, it's. It's definitely a key component of a good Poker Face episode.
- [11:32]
Mike Pesca
Right. It's not a whodunit because the first reel of every episode shows you the murder. We always know who it. Who did it, and it's a. How did it happen? Or how do they crack the case? Also compared to other great murder shows, and something like Murder She Wrote wouldn't essentially be in the category. I kind of post dated those 70s shows, but most of the detectives that we knew when we're solving murders didn't have any supernatural ability. So this is, in fact, an extra challenge that all the murders have to. Almost all the murders have to be solved via someone lying or the bullshit detector. So does that make it more interesting or more challenging? Or does when the challenge is achieved, is that what makes it more interesting?
- [12:15]
Tony Toast
Yeah, I think. I think that. I think it's. It's. It's maybe a touch more challenging because, yeah, you. It's a core element of Charlie's character. And, and so it's going to play into an episode, but you don't want to keep going to the same well every time.
- [12:33]
Mike Pesca
Yes. And it's not as if the superhero ability can literally cut through and solve it. She's lying and therefore, you know the episode's over, right?
- [12:42]
Tony Toast
Over in 20. 20 minutes. Yeah. Ex. So. So it's, it's a core part of it, but you don't want to repeat yourself and how it plays out. So, like, there is a lot of discussion in the writer's room about, like, okay, how can we offer just, you know, a new spin, a new variation on the bullshit detector on an episode by episode basis?
- [13:03]
Mike Pesca
And I talked to the Zuckerman sisters and they're steeped in mystery and we had great conversations where in the room. And tell me this has changed. You debated the nature of what lies could she tell? Could she tell? And what lies would able to get away with? Like, if someone is perhaps insane and is lying, but doesn't think they're lying, that would be a question. So I don't, I don't know if the lore or the bible of Poker Face has changed at all, but again, it's all, it's not a straightforward question. It's all very interesting and depending on your answers to that, you. It would definitely have. Have an effect on how each episode and plot goes, right?
- [13:42]
Tony Toast
No, yeah, exactly. And I think, like, the Zucks did. Did the hard, heavy lifting of figuring out a lot of that lore in season one, because, you know, we, for me, you know, in writers, there's some carryover from season one to season two was like, okay, let's just, you know, we don't need to contradict what they did in season one. We'll just build on it. But, but yeah, but I mean, there were discussions. I mean, it never ended up making an episode, but we were playing around for a day or two of where Charlie is looking through a window and she sees someone talking to someone that she trusts talking to someone else, and she knows that they're lying, but she doesn't hear the content, but she can just tell that they're lying. And that piques her interest. We ended up not pursuing, but. But, yeah, exactly that nature. And like, well, is. Is it, you know, can't. Will that still carry over if she doesn't hear the voice? And we kind of decided like, yeah, there's just something she can tell by the person's body language or just by just an element of, of the, you know, friction between the truth and, and what the person's saying, she could pick up on something's wrong, but. Yeah, like that. You know, kind of playing around with that.
- [14:45]
Mike Pesca
Have you ever done a foreign language up lies in a foreign language that she doesn't understand?
- [14:50]
Tony Toast
No. That's a good idea.
- [14:51]
Mike Pesca
Okay. That one's free. And then the other one is. Maybe there is an angle to a foreign language and you have to. You'll. You'll do great on this. Where. I'm just thinking, in many cultures, they'll invite you to their home. Right. They'll say flattering things. So it's technically a lie. But is it a lie or is. I mean, first of all, would that scan as a lie or just something that is necessary to say, do utterances of etiquette, like, good to see you. You look great. Does that I'm sure, would scan to Charlie as a lie, but there are probably some other utterances that, you know, the person doesn't even realize are a lie. I don't know what you could do with that. But it's also. It's also fascinating.
- [15:33]
Tony Toast
Yeah, no, it is fascinating. Yeah. No, I mean, that. That's a great. You know, sometimes we do get wrapped up in the, you know, just like, let's tell the mystery. But that element, like what you're talking about, just the. The nature of, you know. Yeah. Is there a Western centric, you know, bias in terms of what truth is? Or is there or. Yeah. Or is there simply the content doesn't matter. It's a formality of saying these elements, like saying, good morning. You're not actually curious, you know, you're not actually. Or how are you doing? You know, there you go, really interrogating somebody's state of mind. And you're saying it. It's just a polite way of. Of greeting another person to let them know you don't mean them harm.
- [16:13]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [16:15]
Tony Toast
Yeah, that. That. That element of what's truth, what's not, or does truth even come to play is. Is an interesting fold, you know, or.
- [16:24]
Mike Pesca
If she's at the checkout counter and she scans all the aisles and cashiers one through four saying, have a nice day, and it seems like, do they mean it? And cashier5 knows they just have to say it. Does that come across as a lie?
- [16:37]
Tony Toast
That's.
- [16:38]
Mike Pesca
That's interesting, too. None of these are murder plots, but it's all interesting about what is truth and what is lie.
- [16:43]
Tony Toast
No, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's a fun part of the conceit. It's just like. Yeah, that that, that, that truth element of just kind of exploring that maybe, you know, maybe it's something that can, can open up potentially.
- [16:58]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. I'm also thinking about statements of hope or aspiration or every time here, every time a politician articulates a vision for the future, is it a lie? And maybe if it's not to that politician, are they a psychopath?
- [17:15]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [17:16]
Mike Pesca
Because have you gotten into narcissists or people who believe their own lies on the show?
- [17:20]
Tony Toast
I mean, I don't want to give away. We will come up to some area where there is a. We haven't, it hasn't dropped yet, but there's. There may be a character where this person's relationship to what they're saying is a little bit more complex than, than normal. And Charlie has to navigate that. So that is, that's, that's definitely in the, in the season story.
- [17:46]
Mike Pesca
Interesting. So the Zucks are murder people. And I don't think they've murdered people, but they've in their lives thought about hundreds of murder plots. What about you? Because I read a lot about your fascinating background and your expertise, Ezra Pound and Poetics and the kind of Westerns, Neo Westerns that you do. I want to ask you a question about that. But what about murder plots? How steeped in it were you?
- [18:10]
Tony Toast
I, you know, I spent five seasons on a sort of a murder of the week show called Longmire, kind of a west, modern day western cowboy detective show that, like, I'm, I suspect the Zucks are more. Have more expertise on this front than I do. You know, I have some, I had to learn that type of storytelling and, and I love that type of storytelling. But if I was to throw out my, you know, like, I'm definitely, I'm more of a western and redneck crime type of guy than a murder plot type of guy.
- [18:50]
Mike Pesca
What states do you think Poker Face takes place in? I know there's a lot. Clear Las Vegas. Or is it a Reno element? The clear Nevada element?
- [18:57]
Tony Toast
What else? Yeah, I mean, in season one, she was all over the place. And in season two, we mapped it out pretty clearly. You know, season one, I mean, the first episode of season two takes place in the Northeast. And then, and then season. The rest of season two is in essence a road trip from Florida up to New York. And so she's kind of going up the eastern seaboard, in essence.
- [19:20]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. So was that in. Yeah, season one, there's a quick foray into Vermont, as established by the welcome to Vermont sign. Sometimes some things you don't want to get around as cliches are establishing shots.
- [19:31]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's. Yeah. Cliches for a reason.
- [19:34]
Mike Pesca
And I'm sure that welcome to Vermont sign was posed. Was the production crew pounded that in the side of the road. Where.
- [19:40]
Tony Toast
Oh, I mean, I can't remember, you know, outside of our studios were in Brooklyn, but we would. Our zone went out all the way, like, towards New Jersey. So I think. Yeah, I don't remember.
- [19:54]
Mike Pesca
Somewhere in Rumson, New Jersey. Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's great. Is the East Coast. Are you comfortable with that? Because I know you have this Americana movie out. I know that you have Arkansas collections. You're from King, or you lived in King County, Washington, which has been named after two different Kings, I think, in your lifetime. Is that right?
- [20:13]
Tony Toast
I think that's right, yeah. Yeah. I think it switched over to Martin.
- [20:16]
Mike Pesca
Luther King Jr. How does that make you feel? How's that make the 12,000 inhabitants of King county feel newly prized?
- [20:22]
Tony Toast
I mean, King County's got. Got more. More, you know, a few people, but I don't think it was a heavy topic of conversation.
- [20:30]
Mike Pesca
It was foisted upon the people of King County.
- [20:33]
Tony Toast
Yeah, you know, I mean, I don't think there's resistance either, but the. I mean, the East Coast. I lived in North Carolina for seven or eight years, and we set an episode in a fictional minor league town in North Carolina in season two. It's, you know, I don't have an insider's knowledge of, like, New York yet, but thankfully, tons of people on the show do, so.
- [20:57]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [20:58]
Tony Toast
Relied on them for textures and stuff.
- [20:59]
Mike Pesca
The 29 loss in a row baseball team, which is a big losing streak. I know you want to establish that they're bad, but that is a massive losing streak.
- [21:07]
Tony Toast
It is a big losing streak. It would. It would.
- [21:10]
Mike Pesca
I mean, would certainly motivate the characters to maybe contemplate engaging in the chicanery they do.
- [21:16]
Tony Toast
I mean, we wanted to, you know, do the research to find out what would actually be the worst losing streak in minor league baseball history, and that would be it.
- [21:23]
Mike Pesca
So that did. Were you. Oh, yeah. So was it the Ashland Lookouts? Is that the minor league team that you were around in North Carolina?
- [21:33]
Tony Toast
I was in the Durham Bulls. Oh, yeah. Grad school at Duke and so.
- [21:38]
Mike Pesca
Right. And of course, perhaps no more famous minor league team in cinematic history than the Durham Bulls. Win the Bull and hit us and wear. Hit the Bull and wear a suit, of course, in the outfield. Still to this day. Bull Durham is what I mean. Yes, okay, so when you get in the room and you're plotting out the season, is it driven by. Well, you tell me. Do you have the plots of the murders and try to figure out where to place them, how to cast them, or is it more. Is there some element to. Here are some things with her power that we could do. Let's pursue that in a few episodes. But there's also the superstructure of she's being chased by the world's worst assassins with the worst aim and she has to get from A to B. So how are you plotting out what's really driving the episodes?
- [22:26]
Tony Toast
We usually start with a subculture or a world that we want to live in for an episode. And then we usually kind of start with the characters or the murder itself. So like, you know, what would. What's, what's an interesting short story we can tell in an interesting world that Charlie, we want to see Charlie in where we can tell and just, you know, like that, that first opening 15 minutes. Like what's, what's a good little story there where we can believe one person will kill another person and then try to cover it up and, and then we kind of go from there. Sometimes there's some ideas about, you know, a murder or a spin on the, on the genre. Like the, the season two premiere with the, the sex tuplets or I guess quintuplets. It ended up being that, you know, Laura Dealey, the writer on that she, you know, she pitched it as like, well, this would be a fun, you know, where all the murder suspects look the same.
- [23:25]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [23:25]
Tony Toast
You know, and there's an interchangeability.
- [23:27]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [23:27]
Tony Toast
There's something inherently fun there. And then, so we had that before we had like the backstory with them being, you know, kid actors and, and a, you know, stage mom and, and the location and stuff. So that, that was a different. So different ways in. But generally, you know, the baseball one. Ryan. I, I came into the season knowing Ryan wanted to do a minor.
- [23:48]
Mike Pesca
Ryan Johnson, your executive producer, right?
- [23:51]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah. The creator and really the, the creative head. Like I'm the showrunner, but like, as I would say during production, like I'm kind of the show nudger. Like it's kind of, it's. It's Ryan and Natasha's baby. I just kind of try to keep the logistical and creative train on the track, but, but yeah, so it's, it's, you know, so there's some hang low hanging fruit or some, you know, ready made arenas that were. That I think the Zucks didn't have time to get to in season one that I knew we were wanting to tackle. And then some. Just fresh stuff.
- [24:23]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. And that season one episode, that's very. Ryan Johnson is very Knives out because it's a. It's a closed room mystery for much of it. Yes, they go to Vermont. But there are five suspects, and the added deliciousness is they all look the same because they all are the same because they're all played by Cynthia. Cynthia Erivo. Where the casting. I have a general question on casting. How does it usually happen after it's written and people hold up their hand? And specifically on episode one, how was she lured into playing these five roles?
- [24:56]
Tony Toast
Yeah, the casting process is chaos. Like. Like that's the shorthand. Like it. So we have Mary Vernou and Brett Howe are our casting directors, and then Christine Cromer, who casts out of New York. They will go through traditional casting channels, but at the same time, Ryan, Natasha have a lot of cool and famous friends.
- [25:15]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [25:16]
Tony Toast
And then. And then sometimes from the writers room, we'll have. We'll fixate on, you know, a character actor or a, you know, an actress that we like and then. And that. And it'll be conceived so it can come in through. Through different. Different doorways.
- [25:31]
Mike Pesca
So you'll think of that. Sometimes you'll think of the person before you even know you could get him or her.
- [25:36]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah. So like the third episode, Wyatt Kane, when he was pitching it out, he's just like an FBI agent and like parentheses John Mulaney type.
- [25:45]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [25:46]
Tony Toast
And so then Natasha's buddies with John Mulaney, so texts like, hey, John, do you want to come play with us for two weeks? And he said, yeah, like. And we make the schedule work, and sometimes they, you know, we have that same idea, but the person's not available or. And so then we go to somebody else on Cynthia that was really. Ryan was just a huge fan. So, you know, Ryan knew he wanted to direct that episode and just reach. You know, he's a. He's a theater nut. And obviously her. Her star's only risen because of Wicked, but I think it's really kind of him being a fan of her stage work, knowing that because it's a. These episodes are filmed just. Just over 10 days, which is a pretty accelerated schedule.
- [26:28]
Mike Pesca
Yeah.
- [26:28]
Tony Toast
Especially for someone to pull off five different roles like that. So knowing you need someone with, like, real intense chops to pull it off. And so a multitude of reasons why Cynthia was at the top of the list.
- [26:41]
Mike Pesca
Do you ever try to get someone and they answer, yes, absolutely, I can't do it then. So the original idea for a part to go to one actor or actress, or we say actor now. These days, they actually play another part that you film weeks later in an entirely different episode just because they wanted to be in Poker Face.
- [26:59]
Tony Toast
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, like, we were talking with, like, Justin Thoreau shows up in a later episode, and we were talking to him about an earlier episode, and. And so we just. We. We knew that he wanted to be involved, that he was a fan of the show, and so, like, the timing didn't work out earlier, and so we. We kind of wrote towards him for a later episode. So sometimes that works out.
- [27:21]
Mike Pesca
It does really emphasize the point that there are more good actors than there are good projects or good shows. I mean, the amount of good actors out there is crazy.
- [27:31]
Tony Toast
Yeah, no, yeah, it is. Like, there is an abundance of riches, and then sometimes there's. Yeah. And then there's actors that you kind of miss that, you know, like, they stay active, but you haven't, you know, like, Jasmine guy or, you know, or. I hadn't seen Katie Holmes.
- [27:47]
Mike Pesca
Katie Holmes. She's in episode two. I was like, wait, who is that? And she's. She's with Giancarlo Esposito. What a casting choice. Yeah, it's amazing.
- [27:55]
Tony Toast
Yeah. So, yeah, there is definitely, you know, an abundance of great actors out there, and especially for this show, because I think, at least for myself, I. I really geek out on, like, like, maybe, like, the casting coups I was most excited about were, like, Richard Kine and Carol Kane, you know, like. Like, not necessarily, like, headline stars, but just, like, really great actors that I've just have loved for decades.
- [28:21]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, well, I mean, once you get Mulaney, mate, you have the inroads to kind. It could be argued that Mulaney was just a gateway to kind.
- [28:27]
Tony Toast
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's the only reason we cast him is just so we could get Richard to.
- [28:32]
Mike Pesca
What about someone younger? Some, because those are probably people that you watched as kids. Kind of the kind renaissance happened a little later in his life. But who's a younger person? Who was where you said, I can't believe we got this person. I've always wanted to do something with them.
- [28:48]
Tony Toast
I mean, I was really excited about Patty Harrison. You know, I think you should leave, and a bunch of other stuff. Get. Getting her to come in was. Was a big highlight for me. Yeah.
- [28:59]
Mike Pesca
And we'll be back in a minute with more of Poker Face. And Americana's Tony Toast. We're back with Tony Toast. He is the showrunner of Poker Face, which we have and had been talking about. But now onto the new film Americana. Just by looking at the trailer, you could see many of the overlaps with Poker Face. It's a brown color palette, it's the American west. And it's a woman who didn't want to have to pick up a gun but is being forced to fire it.
- [29:41]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I think there's a reason why I got. I was lucky enough to get this gig. I think there was like some, you know, some of it was me making my case, but I think there's a genuine aesthetic overlap in the sensibilities, a kind of grounding in maybe 1970s New Hollywood storytelling as a, as a key reference to point and being interested in quote unquote, fly over America and you know, and digging kind of populist, maybe not highbrow genres, but coming to them from a position of genuine affection. So, yeah, yeah, I think there's a real overlap. Yeah.
- [30:17]
Mike Pesca
Can you make a Western without it kind of commenting on every western around and before it in a way that's maybe different from other genres?
- [30:25]
Tony Toast
You can try, but I think it's inevitable at this point in the. There's just. There's so much wrapped up in, in the mythology of the west and in the mythology of the genre and the genre itself is so wrapped up in a certain vision of America and who America belongs to that like it. Whether or not you intend to or not, a modern day Western, weather set in the present day or in the past is going to inevitably also be a commentary on the Western itself? I think.
- [30:55]
Mike Pesca
Is it still the case that when you make a Western and even when you make an independent one, someone will give you the assessment, well, you know, Westerns are an unpopular genre. Is that. And so that's a little bit of a hurdle to overcome. Is that still said, even though there have been pretty successful, like True Grit remake and some pretty successful westerns in the entire. What is it? The. What verse do they call it on.
- [31:18]
Tony Toast
Paramount with like Taylor. Sheridan verse?
- [31:20]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, the Sheridan verse. So that is my question, has that. And maybe that didn't really occur or hit when you were making yours, but is it still okay? As you know, there's going to be more of a heavy lift than sci fi or gangster.
- [31:32]
Tony Toast
It's a major uphill climb to do anything western connected because I think, yeah, it's, it's not seen as an aspirational Genre, you know, it doesn't.
- [31:44]
Mike Pesca
Okay.
- [31:45]
Tony Toast
And it doesn't like not to get to like get. Most of the decisions about what gets green lit are from, you know, people from pretty well off backgrounds in Los Angeles and New York. And I don't know that there's a lot of just personal enthusiasm for the western genre. You know, I mean, there's exceptions to that, but it's, you know, to get Americana made, you know, we had to get the cast together first and kind of go out with the, with a talent package as the, as the finance, you know, the, the. The sizzle to get it kind of financed. Because the genre, first time filmmaker, flyover setting, kind of a new take on the western, those were kind of strikes against it. So, yeah, it's definitely an uphill climb.
- [32:34]
Mike Pesca
Do you think it should be. Are they making these mistakes? I understand the motivations of people. And maybe all the, all the Boston movies get made because there are a bunch of people who either went to college in Boston or are familiar with Boston. And you know, Affleck is big guy in Hollywood. So is it just a consequence of. There aren't many people from Springfield, Missouri and King County, Washington and Arkansas, or are they actually using their backgrounds or not really realizing not just the power of the art but the potential of the filmmaking in a way that word applied to other walks of life we could call discrimination, let's say.
- [33:13]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I want to be careful about. But I think, I think there's an unintentional bias against rural slash flyover type of stories. And I think. And then the mistake gets made that there's, you know, there's an underserved audience there. And then like, you know, Taylor Sheridan comes along. And like, Taylor Sheridan had like, I don't know the guy, but he had a. Like Paramount was like the only place that would program Yellowstone. Like everybody else passed on it, right? Yeah, and Paramount and this Paramount was like a new network and like they just needed something and then it. And then, you know, lo and behold, it has a huge audience because like, people actually like that kind of stuff. I think it's a kind of a per. It's just a form of storytelling that's just, just not everybody's gonna love. But there's always kind of an audience for it. But then I think the assumption is that, well, Taylor Sheridan has. He knows the secret and nobody else does. He's a really good storyteller. But. But yeah, there's other people who can, you know, tell stories in the space. There's just a large underserved audience. I mean, they're being served better now because of Taylor Sheridan and. And some other things. But yeah, I think it's just, it's not an active thing. It's an unconscious kind of, you know, it's probably the reason why there's too many, you know, there's, you know, more shows set. Yeah. In New York or in like Silver Lake neighborhood in Los Angeles and stuff. There's not like a huge, you know, like, I think people in the industry are kind of in their own little bubble. Like everybody's in their own bubble and they just assume that the audience is like them with a similar background when there's actually, I think, a bigger diversity in terms of, you know, every facet audience. And sometimes, you know, we all have our own blinders. And I think that's just one of the industry right now.
- [35:05]
Mike Pesca
You also use the word aspirational. It's not aspirational. So in your estimation, if there is a choice between to greenlight two things, and one is 20 something young urban professionals on the make, and the other one is people who maybe have a shotgun in the back of their pickup, they're always going to go for the first. Is that essentially part of it?
- [35:25]
Tony Toast
And I think, I think some of it, I mean, some of it is. It's a little bit of carryover from the days when advertising was a bigger deal. And I think, you know, like there was a demographic both in terms of age, but in terms of kind of profile that advertisers were interested in. And it wasn't a sort of rural or, you know, middle age or older audience. In streaming, I don't think that matters as much. But I think a little bit of that assumption has carried over to the new economic model. You know, like, I've always been wanting to go back. There's this point in the early 1970s called the Rural Purge when networks realized that advertisers weren't interested in a rural audience. And like the same year like everything from Green Acres to Hee Haw to the Johnny Cash show all got canceled. And like, that was like this whole shift in TV culture. Now that's just. I just always have found that fascinating just about in terms of our. You grow up with a certain conception of what America looks like. And so much of that, especially for probably our generation being raised on tv, like how these behind the scenes advertising conversations influence our kind of vision of what actually America looks like and how that gets skewed. It's. It's an interesting however you fall on your own preferences. It's. It's. It's just something I find interesting.
- [36:51]
Mike Pesca
It is interesting. And I know you wrote the 33 and a third book on Johnny Cash, which is a great series. So what do you think, people? He's so admired, but he's become an icon. And like everyone, like, as happens with so many icons, the icon then takes on some elements of myth. Right. So what do you think that people get wrong about the real Johnny Cash that you just. By. I don't know if you ever met or interviewed the guy, but just by engaging. Engaging deeply in his works, you figured out.
- [37:20]
Tony Toast
Yeah, I never. Yeah, I never met him. I saw him perform once as a kid. My parents, for. As a side job, did, like, security and sold T shirts at country concerts as a kid, and I would tag along, and that was part of my kind of, you know, like, love of country music and country culture. My book is actually, like, what you're. Exactly what you're talking about. Like, I'm very in. At least in the book, very uninterested in, like, the real Johnny Cash. What I was interested in is how, like, he, you know, at this late stage, these albums with Rick Rubin that he did at the end of his life, how he purposefully, I think, made himself into a mythic figure. Yeah, kind of reinvented himself. And part of it. My argument is that he kind of connected his own personal, almost mythic biography with. With just the story of the country and. And this connection between, you know, like, religion and. And violence and justice and. And. And kind of these core elemental, like, conflicts in the American psyche. He kind of put onto the man in Black figure and kind of sang from that point of view and kind of sang through, you know, incorporated these elements into, like, the man in Black figure. And so, like, they're. So. For me, like, part of the argument was that he's like. He's like, to me, like the real Johnny Cash. I'm only interested in him as an artist. And, like, to me, he's like, almost like Herman Melville, like a great novelist or Mark Twain. But, like, his great creation is like the mythic version of Johnny Cash, the Man in Black. Like, he's like. He both embodied this novelistic creation, this character. So he performed this character and, like, embodied it, but he's also the author of it. And it was like this lifetime project. And then at the end, he's like this mythic folklore figure. But I think it's very purposeful in his. On his part.
- [39:10]
Mike Pesca
So last thing I want to ask you about. I was just doing a little research on you, and you came up with period drama called Damnation, which I will admit I never heard of. And I still can't hear of it because I guess Netflix just took it off. You blew my mind with the logline. It said, amidst the American labor wars of the Great Depression. That's if. If Westerns are a big swing. Tell me about pitching that and saying, yes, I think America is ready because I'm keen on it, but America is ready for a series where the Pinkertons are the bad guys. Yeah.
- [39:48]
Tony Toast
Yeah. There's maybe a reason why that just ran for one season, but.
- [39:52]
Mike Pesca
Sounds like a great idea, though.
- [39:53]
Tony Toast
I think so, too. I'm really, like, Americana and Damnation are kind of like my two babies. I mean, the first time, my former agents, you know, and I still think highly of her. We were having breakfast, and I was just like, okay. I think I have this idea for a TV show. It's set, you know, in Iowa in the Great Depression. It has to do with the labor wars. Maybe we can shoot in black and white. And she did a literal spit take, and she's just like, tony. That is by far the least commercially promising.
- [40:23]
Mike Pesca
You just kept layering on less and less commercial Iowa labor. Watch this. Black and white.
- [40:29]
Tony Toast
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was. But, yeah, so I. I went. What I did is I went and wrote the first two episodes and showed, like, no, it could be kind of violent and pulpy and interesting, and then it kind of Trojan Horse in the. The labor history elements, but kind of foregrounding, you know, like trying to tell a Clint Eastwood Western in essence, but in John Steinbeck country.
- [40:52]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. Have you seen Salt of the Earth? That movie? That blacklisted movie?
- [40:57]
Tony Toast
No, I have. I mean, I just watched a documentary called that, but I think you're talking about something different.
- [41:02]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. This is a movie set based on the New Mexico labor strike. And I think it's. This might be exaggerated. It's the only movie that was killed by the blacklist. It exists. They shot it, and then they couldn't get distribution. And I interviewed John Mankiewicz, who is a descendant of that Make a wit. And it's fascinating. You would love it. That is my recommendation for you, Salt. And they used real labor activists and real farm laborers as big characters. Like, the second lead is a real labor. It's fascinating.
- [41:34]
Tony Toast
Oh, that's cool. No, I definitely have to check that because, yeah, like, it's that. That strain. Like, you know, things will pop up here and Then. But like yeah, there definitely is. Like there's this movie from the 70s, the spook who sat by the door, which was likewise set in the black community about like a black man who is hired by the CIA and then comes back to his neighborhood and foments like actual over revolutionary revolution. And that was like likewise like repressed upon release and like this history of these kind of type of stories is. Is fascinating. So yeah, I definitely want to check that out.
- [42:13]
Mike Pesca
I gotta, I gotta watch that. Well, I want to thank you. The new season of Poker Face runs on Peacock through July. It's going on now. It's maybe even going to say an improvement on season one. And Americana will be. Well tell us Tony, where can people watch that?
- [42:30]
Tony Toast
That'll be in theaters August 15th.
- [42:32]
Mike Pesca
August 15th, yeah. For Sydney Sweeney and professional wrestler Paul Hauser. All right, thank you so much, Tony. Toast of Poke Face, Americana, the American West, Poetics and a series damnation that I somehow gotta find. Maybe he'll send me a copy on beta. Thank you so much, Tony.
- [42:50]
Tony Toast
Awesome, thanks. A lot of fun. Really appreciate it.
- [42:58]
Mike Pesca
And that's it for today's show. Corey War is the producer of the gist and Astra Green runs our social media. And Kathleen Sykes, she does the gist list. And Ashley Khan, she's the production coordinator. And Michelle Pesca, she does it all. Plus always shaking that magic eight ball to try to get what she wants. Leo Baums, the intern who Peru gpu do Peru. Thanks for listening.
- [43:24]
David Plotz
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