Rick Atkinson (7:59)

Thanks for having me on, Mike.

Mike Pesca (8:01)

So you could have started anywhere. You chose to start in France. Now, granted, Benjamin Franklin's there creating faux pas such as eating the head of the asparagus, not the stalk. But why France? Why was that your choice to emphasize what was so important about this period?

Rick Atkinson (8:17)

Well, the first volume of this trilogy, eventual trilogy, the British Are Coming, ends with the American victories at Trenton and Princeton, late 1776, early 1777. And then the armies go into winter quarters. Not much happens when armies in the 18th century are camped out for the winter. I Open Volume 2, the Fate of the Day in Versailles with Louis XVI, the Absolute Catholic monarch of France, and his spendthrift queen Marie Antoinette, known as Madame Deficit, around the French court. Because that's what the game is for the Americans at this point. Without French help, without assistance beyond the clandestine help that they're already giving by smuggling in weapons and gunpowder and so on, but with real assistance in the form of an army and a navy, the American cause is pretty dim. And so I think it's important to understand where the French are at this point, why Louis is hesitant, what it's going to take to persuade him to throw in with Protestant wannabe Republicans who are bent on overthrowing their lawful monarch. It's a heavy lift, diplomatically so. And Versailles is fun to write about. I think it's fun to read about. It's extraordinary. And so we spend a lot of.

Mike Pesca (9:42)

Time in Valley Forge. You're not going to have plates of hair and pheasant and hundreds of mirrored hallways.

Rick Atkinson (9:50)

That's so true.

Mike Pesca (9:52)

So you said a lot there. We could do a whole interview just based on some of the Easter eggs you put in that question. But let's just take the idea that he was throwing in with Protestants. France, Roman Catholic country. How much was this a war of religion or religion by proxy?

Rick Atkinson (10:11)

I would say not much religion complicates things in the 18th century, is it? Always does. It is difficult for the Americans initially to imagine themselves aligned with Catholic France. America is overwhelmingly Protestant. There are probably 15 to 18 denominations, but there's a long history of warring against the French. The French and their Indian allies have conducted raids into New England for a century, and there's a great antipathy toward Catholicism in America. So not only is it a heavy lift to persuade the King of France diplomatically, it's a heavy lift to persuade Americans that this is in our best interest. So in that respect, you know, there's a religious component to it. It is not a religious war otherwise. It's not Catholics fighting Protestants. It's not like the religious wars that we've seen in Europe earlier in the millennium.

Mike Pesca (11:13)

But antipathy towards Catholics was also quite prevalent in England. And when they tried to expand rights, there was blowback which probably tied into. Well, you tell me how much anti war sentiment was informing those riots.

Rick Atkinson (11:28)

Well, there are riots in June of 1780. They're known as the Gordon Riots after the ringleader of the riots. And there is a religious component there because Britain, the King and Parliament had tried to expand the very limited rights of Catholics in Britain and there was great resistance to it. There is a deep anti Catholic streak in the rabble in Britain. It starts out these riots as an anti Catholic. There's an anti Catholic tenor to it, but it quickly develops into kind of an anti establishment riot. It's the worst civic disturbance in British history. There are almost a thousand killed at the end of this awful week. The worst destruction to London that London is going to see until the Blitz in 1940. You know, tremendous amounts of arson. Finally, troops are brought in belatedly and they're firing into mobs and that's how the riots are put down. So there's a. Religion is a. It's a trigger point for that. But there's more to it than simply anti Catholic fervor.

Mike Pesca (12:42)

Does it reflect growing sentiment, disquiet among the rabble in England about what's going.

Rick Atkinson (12:49)

On, about what's going on globally? Yeah, there's certainly an undercurrent of unrest in Britain and it's not just among the lower classes, tradesmen and, and those who are not part of the aristocracy, not part of the nobility. There's a. You know, the war by this point in 1780 has been going on for five years and the loss in blood and treasure to Britain is substantial. We're going to end up with the British war effort costing them the equivalent of $15 billion in today's money. There are going to be more than 30,000 British and German casualties. So there is a feeling widespread in Britain, but not widespread enough to really overturn the prevailing sentiment, starting with the King on down through his government and with the majority in Parliament, the House of Commons and the House of Lords, that we're going to stay the course, we're going to keep fighting. And this despite the fact that there is a great deal of disquiet about, you know, where are we going with this thing. It is going on year after year. There's no sign that the Americans are going to give up. It has become, as of 1778, a global war. It's not just a brush fire on the edge of the British Empire anymore. The French have come into it, the Spanish are going to come into it, the Dutch eventually are going to come into it. It's being fought on four continents, the seven seas. And so Britain's very existence is at stake. The French and the Spanish put together a very large armada and they're off the southern coast of England in the summer of 1779 about to invade England. So, you know, this thing has spun out of control in a way that understandably makes a lot of British citizens nervous.

Mike Pesca (14:44)

Yeah, the estimates were, and perhaps they were overly optimistic, but you lay out why they would seem to the English to be rational. The estimates were a years long war and by the time the book starts, that is out the window. But what were the British thinking and what did the Americans do or to thwart that? Or was it more that the British didn't factor in, especially given their past wars, maybe with closer enemies. They didn't factor in things like communication and supply lines or the grit and moxie of the Americans.

Rick Atkinson (15:22)

Yeah, that's absolutely true. The British right from the beginning are making several strategic misconceptions. They're operating on the basis of strategic misconceptions. They've got some of the big ideas wrong. One of them is they underestimate the moxie. That's exactly the right word to use about. To the extent to which the Americans are not going to be intimidated by British firepower. The British are keen to have a short war. They don't want it to spread to the continent. They don't want the French to come into it. So they're looking to get this over with quickly. They're concerned about the cost of the war. They're already deeply in debt from the Seven Years War, the French and Indian War as we call it, which has given them the first British Empire with the victories that Britain has won over France and Spain in 1763. The British also believe this starts with the King and it trickles on down through the government and Parliament. And it's an article of faith basically, that if the Americans are permitted to slip away, if the insurrection succeeds, it will encourage insurrections in Ireland, in Canada, in the Sugar islands of the West Indies, which is where the real money is, in India. And it will be the beginning of the end of the British Empire. And the King is absolutely determined that that is not going to happen.

Mike Pesca (16:41)

They're right about that, aren't they?

Rick Atkinson (16:42)

Actually, they're wrong about that, as it turns out. And they're told that they're wrong about that by the likes of Adam Smith, whose treatise called the wealth of nations, one of the seminal works of political economy, is published in.

Mike Pesca (16:57)

Also written in 1776.

Rick Atkinson (16:59)

Exactly, that's right. It's published in 1776. And Adam Smith says, no, you got it all wrong. You do not need to have this mercantile arrangement in which basically you're oppressing your colonies and you're extracting from them raw materials and you're forcing them to buy the finished goods. That's not how it needs to work. That, in fact, if you can have international trade, basically you can be profitable. You can forego the expense of having armies either fighting or armies of occupation. But in the long run, what we're going to see is that the, the British are going to lose the war in 1783. The British are going to have the expense that I mentioned earlier in Blood and Treasure. They're going to lose about a half a million square miles of the British Empire with the loss of the American states. They're not colonies anymore, but they're going to end up pursuing the kind of international trade. They're going to have a second British Empire that's going to be bigger and badder than ever. And so they're fundamentally wrong in these presumptions that are propelling them into the war in the first place.

Mike Pesca (18:11)

In 1775, was King George a poor regent?

Rick Atkinson (18:20)

I think he's not a poor regent, actually. You know, he's not the sinister dunce who minces across the stage of a Hamilton every night singing, you'll be back.

Mike Pesca (18:32)

Can I just interrupt? Was rebutting the images put forth by Hamilton something you encountered a lot, that you felt like you had to do a lot?

Rick Atkinson (18:41)

Well, first of all, I will say Hamilton is a brilliant work of art. I walked out of that theater on Broadway years ago when it first appeared and said, that is a masterpiece, and it is a masterpiece. It's not historically valid in some senses, in the same way that Shakespeare's histories were not necessarily historically valid, but. So the Portrait of King George. Yeah, I felt, you know, I feel obliged as a historian and a military historian to offer gentle correctives to the prevailing notions. George III is a child of the Enlightenment. He is a supporter of the arts. He's a supporter of the sciences. He plays the. The harpsichord, and he plays the violin. And the 65,000 books in his personal library are the basis for the British Library, one of the greatest libraries in the world. There's a lot to like about him. He's got a good marriage, which is not always the case with 18th century monarchs. He's a loving father to his 15 children. But he is a. He's a stubborn and ornery guy who's got these strategic misconceptions. He is so determined that the Americans will not win their independence that he prepares to abdicate if the government will not maintain the hard line that he insists is necessary. So he's a complex character who's, I think, largely misunderstood and caricatured by history, particularly by American history. But I think it's necessary to understand him in all of his complexity to understand why he is waging war for eight years, as it turns out, against his own people across 3,000 miles of open ocean in the Age of sail. It's not an obvious set of reasons, but it's got its own internal logic. From his perspective.

Mike Pesca (20:41)

Yeah. Reading the book and being. Because I've read a lot of World War II history, including yours, and you just forget how contingent history is and how dependent it is on fog and wind. Because if there wasn't fog in the Battle of Brooklyn, and if there's quite often not wind and Admiral Howe cannot mobilize his fleet, it's as important, it seems to be as important as so many of the other factors, like, you know, the movement of artillery and the moxie of the fighters.

Rick Atkinson (21:13)

Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely correct. You know, Washington loses the Battle of Long island, his generalship is poor, he's out generaled, and he's about to lose his entire army, and he escapes across the east river because of this providential fog that you're talking about. It's not the first time that weather will work to his advantage. And weather is always critical in combat. But in the 18th century, where you have only wind to propel your ships, unless you're going to get out and row across the Atlantic. It's, you know, the contingency is absolutely right. The role of contingency in history generally, and especially in combat, is extraordinary. And so, you know, it can take six weeks to cross the Atlantic. It can take three months to cross the Atlantic. It can take forever to cross the Atlantic. There are a Lot of ships that end up being blown to the West Indies because they can't make it to New England. Coming from Ireland or England, that makes it very difficult to control the war from London. When it takes sometimes six months for orders to arrive and orders to be acknowledged and counter orders to be issued, it makes it very difficult to plan. Logistically, the British are reliant almost entirely on supplies, including 20,000 tons of oats and hay to feed 4,000 horses a year. They're relying almost entirely on supplies coming from Ireland and England. And if the wind is against you, those supply convoys can be stalled for days or weeks if not blown completely hither and yon.

Mike Pesca (23:03)

What's your assessment of the British Admiralty and generals? There are a few generals and you take different opinions of them, but I don't know. If we do our draft day rankings like they do with the NFL, what would you give them?

Rick Atkinson (23:17)

Yeah, well, George III is not well served by his generals for the most part, and that's one of the reasons the Americans end up winning. The Admiralty is run by Lord Sandwich, as in the, you know, edible meat between bread. And I think he's pretty capable. He's gotten a lot of bad press over the years. This is the third time he's been First Lord of the Admiralty. He's also been the Secretary of State. He's very, very experienced. He's got one great admiral working for him, and his name is Richard Howe. And Richard Howe is one of the finest fighting sea dogs in British naval history. Richard Howe has a younger brother. William Howe is the commander of British land forces in America for several years. And although he is capable, he is the Peter Principle personified. He has been promoted beyond his level of competence. He doesn't really want to be there. His heart's not in it. The British high command is constantly feuding with each other. Generals feuding with admirals, admirals feuding with admirals, everybody feuding with the home office, with Lord George Germain, who's the American secretary, kind of the Robert McNamara of this war. So this is a disservice to the British cause. When you have feuding within the high command, when you have generals and in some cases admirals, exclusive of Admiral Howe, who are really not up to snuff. And it's a perpetual problem. You can kind of imagine George III as Abraham Lincoln looking for the right general in the American Civil War. The monarch is always looking for a better general to run his campaign in America.

Mike Pesca (25:12)

Right. So I want to ask you about Washington in a second. But. But the retinue of admirals and especially generals around him. There are some figures I hadn't heard of who really gained in my respect. Can you talk about them?

Rick Atkinson (25:28)

You're talking about American or British?

Mike Pesca (25:30)

Yeah, American generals. Some names who I don't know. They're not on a bill, but man, were they good generals.

Rick Atkinson (25:35)

Yeah, that's right. And part of it is that Washington has a fine eye for subordinate talent. That's a gift. He shares that with Dwight Eisenhower, whom I spent 15 years living with, metaphorically writing about World War II.

Mike Pesca (25:49)

They're kind of similar personalities, very even keels, Mike.

Rick Atkinson (25:53)

They have real similarities, even though they're completely different in their origins and their background. But you're right.

Mike Pesca (26:00)

That's right, that's right. Humble town in Kansas versus is it right? Washington, by many accounts the richest man in America.

Rick Atkinson (26:07)

Not the richest man in America, but he's certainly wealthy in Virginia. And then he marries the richest widow in Virginia, Martha dandridge custis, in 1759. And then he's got real money. And of course he, you know, he inherits Mount Vernon. And you know, in the course of his lifetime at Mount Vernon, there are at least 578 slaves working there. So that's the origin of his wealth. That's the source of his wealth and something to be remembered as. We venerate him. Yeah. So when he's looking around for guys who can do the job, he sees, for example, an overweight 25 year old Boston bookseller named Henry Knox who's got very little military experience. He's been with the militia in Boston between selling books. So he knows a bit about artillery. But somehow Washington discerns that this guy's going to be the father of American artillery. He's a gifted gunner, he's a fine leader. He's in implacable in his determination to make gunnery work for the American cause. Washington looks around and sees a lapsed Quaker from Rhode island in his mid-30s named Nathaniel Greene, who has not even been able to be elected lieutenant in his Rhode island militia company. And somehow Washington recognizes that this guy has got some capabilities. Nathaniel Greene is going to be second only to Washington as the most indispensable man in the Continental Army. He is a gifted, gifted soldier. And he's good not only at commanding men in combat. When things are darkest at Valley Forge in the winter of 1777-78 and the army, 2,000 men die at Valley Forge. They die of disease, they die of malnutrition. The army supply system is completely in collapse. And Washington goes to Greene and says, I need you to be my quartermaster general. Greene says, I don't want to. I want to be a field commander. Nobody in history has ever heard of a quartermaster. This is a direct quote from him. Washington says, I'm sorry, you got to do it. So he takes on the task for more than two years. He's a quartermaster general. He is brilliant at it. He's got, like Washington, like Eisenhower, a big brain, organized for executive action. He is capable of taking responsibility. He's capable of extraordinary organizational prowess. So you've got guys like this on the American team, and they're good. You know, there's some duds. The best tactical commander on either side the first two years of the war, Benedict Arnold. He's going to be a major general in 1778, and he is born to lead other men in the dark of night. And Washington knows that.

Mike Pesca (28:58)

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Rick Atkinson (31:45)

Well, pleasantly surprised. You know, people have been digging into this topic for 250 years. It is the semi quincentennial. But you know, the big events in our history, like the biggest figures in our national history, it's bottomless. There's more to write. There will always be more to write about. Abraham Lincoln, for example, or World War II. I'm an archive rat. I spend a lot of time in archives. And the mystery of the next unopened archival box is something that keeps me going. I spent a month in Windsor, just west of London. That's where the papers of George III are kept. They're kept in the tower, the top, the garret of the Round Tower, begun by William the conqueror in the 11th century. And in a month going through his papers. And George was his own secretary until late in life when he began to go blind. And he wrote not only his correspondence himself, he made the copies himself. And you have a real tactile sense of being in his presence as you go through his papers, trying to understand what it is he thinks he's doing. And so I you know, I'm pleasantly surprised almost every day when I'm in the research phase of this project.

Mike Pesca (33:03)

What was the biggest or one of the biggest revelations for you? The I never knew that moment.

Rick Atkinson (33:09)

You know, I would say that trying to understand what's going on on the other side of the hill, meaning the enemy side, the British and German side, has been a continual surprise to me. I think I vaguely had some sense, sense of what they were doing and the internescent bickering that was going on and the issues involving British society and so on. But really getting into it and trying to peel away the mythologies of it was a constant revelation to me.

Mike Pesca (33:46)

Tell me just physically what it's like, how to what extent they let you handle these documents. And also it is in English, but it is in English that especially in the script and some of the syntax would not strike us. Well, you tell me. It's when I've read English from 250 years ago, it almost seems like a foreign language right in between us and Old English. So it's a multi part question, but I put it to you.

Rick Atkinson (34:14)

Well, first of all, most repositories want you wearing gloves when you're handling papers because, you know, you're clumsy with gloves. You drop the papers. It's worse to have the papers, you know, fall on the floor and step on them than it is. So the papers of George iii, they're written on the finest paper that money could buy in the 18th century with the best inks that could be produced. And they're gorgeous and they're in these big oversized red binders that the Brits use for their official papers. And it really is a tactile experience. You know, not all papers are that beautifully preserved or conserved. Fortunately, the papers of our founders, the principal guys, have been beautifully curated. Washington's papers, for example, the University of Virginia has been at it since 1968. They're in the home stretch of the Revolutionary War series that they, they got I think about three years to go before they finish. They're on volume 36 or 37 at this point. And they're all online, the Founders Online, it's a website. And you can go and look at all of George Washington's papers. Benjamin Franklin's papers, beautifully done by Yale Hamilton, done by Columbia. Nathaniel Greene's papers have been curated by the University of North Carolina. So, you know, most of the big guys have their papers and their typescript. You know, you can read it easily. Now, having said all that, there's the reality that a lot of stuff is written on scraps of crummy paper in ink that has faded a lot over 250 years with poor spelling, incomprehensible punctuation. And you know, the diction is unlike the diction that we use sometimes, it's sometimes hard. For example, Henry Clinton was a general who was the commanding general for the British for four years longer than any other of the British commanders. His papers are in Ann Arbor at the University of Michigan, as are the papers of many of the top British commanders and politicians of the time. In Ann Arbor was Not one of the 13 colonies. And Henry Clinton's handwriting is just appalling. I mean, it looks like a child scrawl is a slur to children. So trying to work your way through that, you know, it's arduous. So you pick your battles and you hope for the best.

Mike Pesca (36:59)

Why do you think the American Revolution and revolutionary figures has not yielded as many great movies or pop cultural depictions as the Civil War?

Rick Atkinson (37:14)

Yeah, that is a very good question. There is a great movie coming. I'm here to tell you about it. It's by Ken Burns. I've been involved with it for three years in a pretty substantial way. He has made a 12 hour six part film, a documentary that will air on PBS starting in mid November. I've seen the whole thing and it is gorgeous and it's historically right on point and it's a remarkable thing. And I think people will find it to be both amazing and enjoyable. You know, I think part of it, Mike, is that the Civil War has an internecine quality to it. You know, it is tragic. Right from the get go. It's brother against brother. Now, the first Civil War is the American Revolution. It is brother against brother in a pretty big way. And it's just as nasty in some cases as the Civil War is. But I think the remoteness of the Revolution militates against feeling the emotional connection to it that we still do with the Civil War. You know, when we think, I think people think about it. It's got a kind of sympia tint to it. The blood has been drained from it. It's like an old lithograph. It's not that way. It is as nasty as war can possibly be. Not only on the battlefield, but in the hospitals. And the disease kills many more than bullets do. So I think that the fact that the founders, Washington in particular, have been embalmed and veneration also works against it. We have trouble, I think, recognizing that they all have feet of clay. Washington is not a very good tactical general. He's got all those slaves that you cannot square that circle morally. But I think that in general, over time we've built up this encrusted mythification of the revolution that works against it in popular culture. Works against it in trying to tease out, you know, the great film on the American Revolution. Maybe it'll come someday. But you're right, there is a big difference.

Mike Pesca (39:31)

Last question. Middle parts of trilogies are notoriously difficult because they thwart the classic narrative structure. And there's not even a beginning or an end to latch onto. Did you. How did you strategize that? Did you talk to any other historians, writers of trilogies? Did you call up Hilary Mantel and asked her how she did it? What was your. And you've done others. So what is your strategy about dealing with the middle parts of a broad, sweeping trilogy?

Rick Atkinson (40:02)

Yeah, that's a great question, too. Yeah, I wish I could call Hilary Mantel, because I sure do admire that. Unfortunately, she's gone now. Well, you know, I revere Bruce Catton. He wrote two trilogies. Shelby Foote wrote 3,000 pages in his trilogy on the Civil War. I go back and reread Foote's 80 pages on Gettysburg sometimes just for inspiration. I did write another trilogy. So this is not my first rodeo. I wrote a trilogy on the American role in the liberation of Europe in World War II. So I've got some real experience in dealing with exactly what you're talking about. There's not a beginning and an end in the way that most books have a beginning and an end, but there are beginnings and there are endings and there are pauses. And so I have found my way in this one to begin the second book with a new beginning. We start in France. We're in Europe a lot in this book, as well as on American battlefields. And I end it with, you know, I kind of leave you hanging a bit. The last scene is Charleston, where the American army there, 5,000 soldiers are trapped, besieged and annihilated. That entire army is destroyed. It's looking really bad for the home team at that point. This is May of 1780, well along into the war. So, you know, I'm hoping that the reader will stick with me and come back knowing that, you know, we've got more to fight and that it's going to end. Well, I think most people know that, you know, we're going to get to Yorktown somehow and almost miraculously going to end up victorious and come out of this an independent nation.

Mike Pesca (41:57)

Rick Atkinson is now in the midst of. Of his Revolution trilogy. I think in the beginning, I said he won the Pulitzer Prize. He won two Pulitzer Prizes, one for reporting, one for history. The new book is the Fate of the Day, the War for America, for ticonderoga and Charleston, 1777-1780. Rick, thank you so much.

Rick Atkinson (42:16)

Mike, pleasure being with you. Thanks for the conversation.

Mike Pesca (42:24)

And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the Gist. Astrid Green is in charge of our socials. Kathleen Sykes is the editor of the Gist List. Michelle Peska's cbso Ashley Kahns our Co C B S O Leo Baum still out there floating in the ether like Leo Baum does improve. Dupre thanks for listening. When the Moore family dish cable Internet and switched to Siddly fiber, they got so much more. Mr. Moore got more upload speed for next level gaming and live stream live streaming to the masses with reliable service. Mrs. Moore is no longer her family's IT guru, leaving her more time to stream games into overtime. Let's go. And young Mason Moore got more done quickly uploading HD product demos and video conferencing without freezing the numbers look good. Brad, you're on mute. Switch from cable Internet to Ziply Fiverr and get more of what you love for $65 less per month than cable@ziply fiverr.com.