Rob Reiner: "I Just Viewed My Child in Pain"

Summary

The Gist — Rob Reiner: "I Just Viewed My Child in Pain"

Podcast: The Gist by Peach Fish Productions
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Rob Reiner (director, actor), brief comments from Nick Reiner (writer, Rob's son)
Date: December 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features a compelling interview with legendary filmmaker and actor Rob Reiner, joined briefly by his son Nick Reiner. They discuss their deeply personal film Being Charlie, which is based in part on Nick's real-life struggles with addiction and rehab. The conversation explores themes of parenthood, pain, empathy, generational pressure, and the creative process. The episode also includes Pesca’s reflections on Rob Reiner’s legacy after his tragic death, criticism of Donald Trump’s public statements regarding Reiner, and, in a later segment, a detailed spiel analyzing Jacob Savage’s essay about diversity, exclusion, and shifting demographics in elite cultural and academic industries.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rob Reiner, Legacy, and Tragic Circumstances

[05:00–10:45]

• Pesca acknowledges that the interview was recorded a decade ago, prior to Rob Reiner’s death, and reflects on how public perception of Reiner’s legacy has been affected posthumously, especially due to inflammatory remarks made by Donald Trump.
• Pesca notes the heartbreak in how a life’s achievements become “indelibly intertwined” with the circumstances and commentary surrounding a tragic death.

  “The legacy of Reiner, like all people, is not defined by his death. But his death now becomes so important and intertwined, and the horrible circumstances of his death become indelibly intertwined with everything that we're ever going to think about.” — Mike Pesca [07:25]

2. On Being Charlie: Art Imitates Life

[10:45–15:30]

• Rob Reiner discusses directing Being Charlie, written by his son Nick Reiner along with Matt Ellis Soffin (themselves acquaintances from rehab).
• The film centers on the Governor of California's son (mirroring real-life elements of Nick’s rehab experiences), increasing the stakes for political and personal reasons.

  “It wasn't like, cross my mind that, you know, what he was going through was going to have any effect on my career or anything like that. I was concerned about him as my son ... We made [the main character’s father the governor] to raise the stakes a little bit in the fiction of the story.” — Rob Reiner [11:25]

• The movie enables commentary on politics and explores the burdens on children of public figures.
• They discuss casting Cary Elwes (of Princess Bride fame) as the governor, incorporating pirate-themed humor as a nod to his iconic role.

  “We put that in there because of, you know, he did play the Dread Pirate Roberts.” — Nick Reiner [12:23]

• The film layers real-life family dynamic pain with moments of comedy and pathos, especially in group therapy scenes.

  “It is. And when that scene came from real experiences that we had ... family sessions where the parents would come together with the children and... the parents were always talking about themselves and their shattered dreams ... here you are, your child is struggling ... and yet your concern is that how it reflects on you ... I always thought that that was kind of funny and selfish and kind of interesting.” — Rob Reiner [13:54]

Memorable Quote

“I did see a lot of people in those meetings who did think of it that way, that, you know, this, the kid is doing something to me. I didn't view it that way. I just viewed my child in pain and I didn't know what to do to help him.” — Rob Reiner [15:02]

3. Parenting, Projection, and Self-Reflection

[15:30–16:45]

• Rob discusses the deep parental guilt and empathy that comes with watching a child suffer, the need for self-examination, and how both parent and child’s personal issues mirror each other.

  “Because you raised them ... you see a lot of your traits in them, and you see them struggling to try to find their own identities ... When you see them struggling and you see your impurities and your, you know, foibles... it comes right back in your face ...” — Rob Reiner [15:52]

• The film-making process proved unexpectedly therapeutic for both Rob and Nick.

4. Hollywood Generational Pressures

[17:00–18:00]

• Discussion of growing up as the child (and grandchild) of public, creative icons—Rob is the son of Carl Reiner, Nick is the grandson.
• Rob relates his own experiences of pressure and expectations with empathy for his son’s struggles.

  “I went through a lot of that myself. I think it's even more difficult for him because he's got not only his father, but his grandfather to come up against ... If you're gonna go into the same line of work... I know how difficult that can be.” — Rob Reiner [17:35]

5. Comedy Influences & Creative Legacy

[18:05–19:10]

• The fictional Charlie in Being Charlie is a fan of classic comedians (Pryor, Carlin, Moms Mabley), mirroring Rob’s own influences.
• Rob reminisces about his comedic education, exploring the evolution of stand-up and records.

6. Reflections on Filmography and Filmmaking

[20:00–24:47]

• Pesca reviews Rob Reiner's stellar directorial run: Spinal Tap, The Sure Thing, Stand By Me, Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, Misery, A Few Good Men, North, American President etc.
• Discussion on the birth and saturation of the "mockumentary" genre with Spinal Tap as its genesis.

  “We started this thing. There was no such thing as mockumentary ... This is the best way to tell this story. We wanted to do a satire of a rock and roll tour, so we figured this was the best way to do it.” — Rob Reiner [20:32]

• Musings on Aaron Sorkin’s writing brilliance, arguing that creative collaboration often brings out the best in geniuses.

  “When you have the right collaboration ... you can find the alloy that will be better than the sum of the parts ... But Aaron, listen, he's a brilliant writer. He don't need me.” — Rob Reiner [22:41]

• On the enduring power and relevance of romantic comedies, using When Harry Met Sally as a focal point.

  “Men and women and the dance that men and women do have been going on forever. And there's always a way of taking a look at it and seeing how it's done and a different way of doing it ...” — Rob Reiner [23:37]

• Anecdotes about the iconic Katz’s Delicatessen scene and its real-life legacy, complete with flash mob imitators faking the “I’ll have what she’s having” moment.

  “I saw a video, it was a flash mob, where they all went to Katz's ... and every woman in the restaurant was faking an orgasm ...” — Rob Reiner [25:27]

7. Personal Identity & Generational Mixing

[25:43–26:09]

• Pesca playfully refers to Rob Reiner as Carl, highlighting how even seasoned professionals struggle to separate individual legacy from parental legacy—a point both humorous and revealing.

  “You know why you keep that in? ... That makes the point of how difficult it is to make the break and how hard it is.” — Rob Reiner [25:48]

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The Spiel: Jacob Savage’s “White Men Shut Out of the Culture Industries”

[27:51–41:28; key segment: 28:00–41:28]

Pesca shifts tone to a data-rich reflection on Jacob Savage’s widely discussed Compact Magazine essay.

• Savage contends that white men have been largely shut out of influential cultural, journalistic, and academic positions in the last decade.
• Pesca relates numerous statistics (citing Conde Nast, LA Times, ProPublica, NPR, Brown, UC Irvine, Sundance, The Atlantic, MacArthur Genius Grants, Pulitzers, and more), demonstrating dramatic changes in hiring, awards, and representation—often far exceeding general demographic shift and moving toward strong majoritarianism by women and people of color.

  “At NPR, 78% of new hires were people of color. So 22% white people. In a country that's around 66% white people.” — Mike Pesca [30:14] “Of the 161 [MacArthur Genius Awards, 2019–2025], 18 went to White men. I counted all of them.” — Mike Pesca [32:33]

• Pesca acknowledges the context: historical exclusion of women and people of color, and the argument that these shifts serve as a corrective—or perhaps, in some eyes, an overcorrection.
• He cautions against a simplistic linking of these demographic shifts to the rise of populism, “men’s rights” movements, or voting trends, but insists that consequences (good, bad, or mixed) are real—and worth reckoning with.

  “It is more or less of a reasonable definition of what an American who is raised to value the power of merit ... has been told was fair ... I know that when the immutable characteristics play a very key role in defining you out of your dream profession, it does not feel good. And ... it does tend to show up in discernible and profound ways that we are all to some extent living through now.” — Mike Pesca [39:35]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “I just viewed my child in pain and I didn't know what to do to help him.”
  — Rob Reiner [15:02]

• “The legacy of Reiner, like all people, is not defined by his death. But his death now becomes so important and intertwined, and the horrible circumstances of his death become indelibly intertwined with everything that we're ever going to think about.”
  — Mike Pesca [07:25]

• “We started this thing. There was no such thing as mockumentary ... We just basically said, this is the best way to tell this story.”
  — Rob Reiner [20:32]

• “But Aaron, listen, he's a brilliant writer. He don't need me.”
  — Rob Reiner [22:41]

• “I saw a video ... every woman in the restaurant was faking an orgasm.”
  — Rob Reiner [25:27]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:25] Pesca on Reiner’s posthumous legacy and Trump’s remarks
• [10:45] Start of interview: Rob and Nick Reiner on Being Charlie
• [13:54] Rob Reiner on parenthood in rehab therapy sessions
• [15:02] “I just viewed my child in pain ...” — Rob Reiner
• [17:35] Rob Reiner on generational showbusiness pressure
• [20:32] Mockumentary genre discussion
• [22:41] Reiner on Aaron Sorkin and creative collaboration
• [23:37] Reflections on the romantic comedy genre
• [25:27] “Katz’s Delicatessen” scene and public mimicry
• [27:51] Pesca’s spiel on white men, culture industries, and statistics
• [32:33] MacArthur Genius Grant statistics
• [39:35] Pesca’s summing up on the consequences of demographic change

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains a sharply intelligent, conversational, and empathetic tone. Pesca’s probing but kind interviewing style fosters moments of deep vulnerability and candor. The Reiners’ banter is simultaneously poignant, humorous, and insightful, with a wry acknowledgment of family legacy and the emotional labor of parenting under public scrutiny.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want a full account of the interview’s substance and significance—without the need to listen in real time.

Transcript

[Rob Reiner]

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[Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister)]

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[Nick Reiner]

Zoe.

[Drew Ski]

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[Elf Drew Ski]

Drew Ski, live with your legs, man.

[Rob Reiner]

Santa. Santa, did you get my letter?

[Drew Ski]

He's talking to you, Bridges.

[Elf Drew Ski]

I'm not.

[Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister)]

Of course he did.

[Elf Drew Ski]

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[Drew Ski]

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[Nick Reiner]

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[Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister)]

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[Elf Drew Ski]

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[Nick Reiner]

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[Drew Ski]

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[Elf Drew Ski]

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[Rob Reiner]

Hi, it's Saturday. It's the Saturday show. I bring you one from the vault and one from the week. And on Monday, as I promised you, I bring you my full interview with Rob Reiner. This was from 10 years ago. You'll hear me talking about my nine and seven year old kids. They're 18 and 17 now. And of course we were talking about kids because this was an interview with Rob Reiner. Also his wife Michelle was there. He references her at one point, the interview. And we're talking about a movie he had just made really about the life of his son Nick, who who's been arrested for his murder. I've never had a murder victim, someone who would become a murder victim on the show. I certainly have never had an interview with such a person where the main topic of conversation was the person who would murder him. It is also horrible and macabre, made more horrible by what President Donald Trump said and then dug in to continue to say about him. And this was the thought I had about that. It is such a denigration, it is such a break with not only decency, but with everything that you would want if you had any investment in what we broadly call humanity. And here's why. Whenever we think about Rob Reiner in the future, we will inevitably think about the circumstances of his death. Now, the reason we even know his name is because what he achieved in life as an actor and then as a director. The interview talks about his great movies. I'm not going to interview Rob Reiner about a movie he put out recently without talking about the great string of movies that he started his career with. But the legacy of Reiner, like all people, is not defined by his death. But his death now becomes so important and intertwined, and the horrible circumstances of his death become indelibly intertwined with everything that we're ever going to think about. Rob Reiner made worse, I do believe, by what Trump said. So it wasn't just one of these circumstances where a wonderful artist has to always be amended, you know, like James Dean or like Natalie Wood. Oh, what terrible circumstance around their death. It's further amended and yanked into the realm of nearly unfathomable by the fact that the President of the United States so horribly insulted everything about the man. It is, and there's a word you always think about with Donald Trump, but it's never applied more aptly than now. It is a shame, thanks to the man who has no shame. But enough about Trump. This is an interview with Reiner, who was a delight about a movie that was actually pretty good and about a life that was extraordinary. Also later in the show, I talk about a. Or I give you the spiel that I issued in the middle of the week about that compact magazine by Jacob Savage, that piece that counted and then analyzed all the white men who weren't allowed into the elite professions. He started the count in 2014. I think it started about 2018, 2019. But I just relayed the statistics. There was so much debate about the analysis of those statistics. I'll just read you the best thing. I think the best thing I read about this article is by Musa Al Gharbi, who is a professor at Stony, Brooklyn and has been a guest on the show. And he writes a pretty good tweet. Things that are simultaneously true, like the knowledge and culture industries, are highly unrepresentatives of the society that they serve, but they have the outsized influence and we tend to pay attention to them. But here was the interesting part. Despite the fact that few of the losers in this arrangement are genuinely poor, as a result, the humiliation these folks experienced, both in virtue of being, being unable to realize the lives they expected, and because these institutions that were largely excluding them were also engaged in really blatant disparagement and mockery of them as a class of human being, laying on them blame for all ills in society, declaring their suffering and anxiety is good and appropriate, et cetera. And we're pretty overt and explicit about their intent to discriminate and in justifying that to discrimination. This does have negative social and political consequences. It does. Maybe I should have aired that after you heard my piece for like, what are you talking about? But just remember I said it and then think about it after you hear me reciting and then adding to the Jacob Savage compact piece. 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[Nick Reiner]

Hey, how are you?

[Rob Reiner]

So in this I'm good in this movie or I'm well. I think grammatically I am well.

[Nick Reiner]

You are well.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah. Thank you. I'm well. You know, let me finish. I'm well, not so good.

[Nick Reiner]

Yeah.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah. Okay. So in this Movie the stakes. Father, son, rehab, obviously more than the echoes of real life, mapping your experience to some extent in the movie. But then you have the element of the govern, so there are stakes for him, which must have been different from the stakes that you actually had in real life with your son. It wasn't the case that no matter what happened with Nick, your son, that it would really make you lose a job, hurt your career? No, no.

[Nick Reiner]

And I, and, and it's not something I even thought about. I mean, it wasn't like, cross my mind that, you know, what he was going through was going to have any effect on my career or anything like that. I was concerned about him as my son was. We made this to raise the stakes a little bit in the fiction of the story.

[Rob Reiner]

And also because you're very interested in politics. You made the American president. It's also a good chance to comment on politics and what you know of politicians in general.

[Nick Reiner]

Right. I do have one foot in that world as well as another in the, in the show business.

[Rob Reiner]

Carrie Ules, Carrie El West. ElWest. I always get that wrong.

[Nick Reiner]

Yeah.

[Rob Reiner]

Who, of course, was the Dread Pirate Roberts in the Great Princess Bride? Have you worked with him in the.

[Nick Reiner]

No, no. We've kept a, a relationship. We've stayed in touch and been friends. And I was always looking for something I could do with him.

[Rob Reiner]

So he plays. He's running for governor of California. He's got a catchphrase. He's got an action movie background, but his catchphrase is pirate esque. And I was wondering if that was a coincidence since he played the pirate.

[Nick Reiner]

Well, we put that in there because of, you know, he did play the Dread Pirate Roberts. We figured he could have been a very successful actor who, you know, had a series of pirate movies.

[Governor Character]

I know some of you see me as a washed up swashbuckler who got bored marauding the high seas. But I've lived all of my adult life in California. And as I stand here at the start of my campaign, I want to let my opponent know that yo ho ho and the battle's begun.

[Rob Reiner]

He's governor and a lot of his motivation is, you know, not exactly with his son's best interest at heart. So that's not like what was going on with you and your son, I presume. However, there's like a shame element to it. And I wonder if you as a dad. I'm a father of kids and I did a lot of projection. My kids are young.

[Nick Reiner]

How old are your kids?

[Rob Reiner]

Nine and seven.

[Nick Reiner]

You know, you don't have to deal with those kind of issues yet, but you may have to.

[Rob Reiner]

But there were scenes in the movie, like there was that one scene that was shot for comedy where it was a group session and two women named Kathy were crying, right?

[Nick Reiner]

Yes.

[Rob Reiner]

And you could tell when it's shot for comedy. Well, if you're not a student film like I am, if you're not, it just seems funny. But the framing of it, the kid in the middle, the parallelism of two mothers crying a little bit over the top. But there was something about that scene with all these like broken down, slack jawed, just dull eyed kids so disaffected and just the pain of the mothers. It's comedy, but it's pathos.

[Nick Reiner]

It is. And when that scene came from real experiences that we had and when Nick was in various rehabs over the years, there was always these family sessions where the parents would come together with the children and they'd have these therapy sessions. And we were struck, always struck by the fact that the parents were always talking about themselves and their shattered dreams. Yeah, here you are, your child is struggling, really going through a tough, tough time. And yet your concern is that how it reflects on you and that this child has somehow shattered my dreams for what I expected of him. And I always thought that that was kind of funny and selfish and kind of interesting.

[Narrator/Host]

I don't know what I did wrong.

[Rob Reiner]

I tried to be a good mom. When he was young, his teachers love.

[Narrator/Host]

Loved him, said he lit up the classroom. And then all my hopes, my dreams shattered.

[Nick Reiner]

I did see a lot of people in those meetings who did think of it that way, that, you know, this, the kid is doing something to me. I didn't view it that way. I just viewed my child in pain and I didn't know what to do to help him. And so, you know, this process of making the movie was a big eye opener for me. I mean, I didn't go into it thinking, all right, this is going to be cathartic, you know, or, or, you know, it'll be like a therapeutic experience. But it turned out to be that because it forced me to look at what Nick was going through and it forced him, I think, to look at what I was experiencing.

[Rob Reiner]

We could be so disappointed and we are with people in life and there are ways to deal with that. But then when you're disappointed or you feel for whatever you have these emotion towards your sons, you have them towards yourself too.

[Nick Reiner]

Oh, yes, absolutely.

[Rob Reiner]

Because you raised them.

[Nick Reiner]

Yes. Not only did you raise them, but you see A lot of your traits in them, and you see them struggling to try to find their own identities. And when you're a teenager, whether you take drugs or not, you're going through a very rough time and struggling with all kinds of confusion and your brain is reordering itself. And you see as a parent that they are struggling to free themselves of certain influences that you might have had on them, to find their own core. When you see them struggling and you see your impurities and your, you know, foibles and things, it comes right back in your face and you see how your issues have been placed onto them. Yeah.

[Rob Reiner]

And then that's doubly. Then that makes you look inward too.

[Nick Reiner]

Yeah. So it's a process.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah, it's a thing. At least it's a good movie in the end. Now, there's another element which is. Okay, so a kid who's raised in Hollywood, a kid who's raised. In the movie, he was raised the governor's son. And of course, his dad is this famous Arnold Schwarzenegger esque actor. I said the name. You didn't. But you were raised in Hollywood too, you know. Your father, everyone, I hope, knows, is Carl Reiner, greatest comic mind. Well, one of the.

[Nick Reiner]

My father's Carl Reiner.

[Rob Reiner]

Yes. Yes.

[Nick Reiner]

Jesus. I guess not everybody did that.

[Rob Reiner]

That means, like, Mel Brooks is your uncle.

[Nick Reiner]

That's right. Yeah.

[Rob Reiner]

By the way, that guy still got it.

[Nick Reiner]

I know they do. I know they. They spend every night together. They watch a movie, they have dinner and they. There. They have each other. It's great.

[Rob Reiner]

Amazing. But my question is, so it must be very hard to navigate being raised as child of a famous person in Hollywood, and yet you were. Did your experience help you with your son or is it still hard?

[Nick Reiner]

Well, I think it's difficult. I mean, I certainly understand the pressures that he is experiencing. I mean, I went through a lot of that myself. I think it's even more difficult for him because he's got not only his father, but his grandfather to come up against. So I know what those pressures are. If you're gonna go into the same line of work, and it's a public, visible line of work, I know how difficult that can be.

[Rob Reiner]

So in the movie, Charlie's a huge fan of Moms Mabley and some old.

[Nick Reiner]

He likes Richard Pryor and George Carlin and Lenny Bruce and somebody that a lot of people don't know, Lord Buckley, who was a very hip comedian back in the 40s and 50s.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah, he was. He kind of spanned the vaudeville era. Yeah. Yeah. So was that reflective of your real son, Nick?

[Nick Reiner]

Well, not so much my son Nick, but he's a big fan of. You know, he loves Louis C.K. i mean, he's a huge fan of Louis C.K. and he likes Chris Rock and certain comedians. I grew up liking certain comedians. And these are the comedians that I liked. And I think that anybody who gets into standup, you start looking back and seeing, you know, who's done it. Great.

[Rob Reiner]

So did you listen to what they called the race records? Did you listen to all of them?

[Nick Reiner]

Yeah, listen to all of it.

[Rob Reiner]

Did your dad give them to you and.

[Nick Reiner]

No, I don't know if he gave them to. I mean, I came upon them, you know, I started by listening to Nichols and May and Shelly Berman and Bob Newhart and those kind of records and Woody Allen. But then I started diving into Moms Mabley and Redd Fox and Lord Buckley and all these great, great hip comedians.

[Rob Reiner]

Now, I did notice, okay, so the actor who plays Charlie, his name is Nick Robinson. Nick Robinson. He's excellent. Your son is Nick Reiner.

[Nick Reiner]

Nick Reiner.

[Rob Reiner]

Now, remember that part in A sure Thing where John Cusack says, you're gonna name your kid Elliot? You name your kid Nick? Like Nick.

[Nick Reiner]

Nick?

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah, Nick. Nick's a real name. Nick's your buddy.

[Nick Reiner]

Yeah.

[Rob Reiner]

Nick's a guy you have a beer with. Nick's a guy you puke in the car with.

[Nick Reiner]

He doesn't mind it.

[Rob Reiner]

Sorry. Not puke. Vomit. Kind of guy who doesn't mind if you puke in his car. Nick.

[Governor Character]

Oh, vomit.

[Rob Reiner]

I'm sorry.

[Nick Reiner]

Yes. Yeah.

[Rob Reiner]

I mean, is that. Why is that. Why is Nick.

[Nick Reiner]

You know, it definitely went through our heads. Michelle, who's sitting here with me, his mother and I, we did definitely. When we came on the name Nick, we definitely did go through that. That rap that. Nick. Nick's your buddy. Nick's a guy you can have beer with.

[Rob Reiner]

All right. I can't go through the entire oeuvre, but. Your first four. Yeah, right. Your first five, Your first six. We could. I don't know where to stop. Here's where. Your movies in order without skipping one. Spinal Tap. Sure thing. Stand By Me, Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, Misery, A Few Good Men. Gee, My God, I stopped at North. Not a terrible movie.

[Nick Reiner]

You don't have to stop at north, then.

[Rob Reiner]

American President Goes to the Mississippi. Amazing movies. I can't ask you about all of them, but I want to ask you a question. Maybe about one or two. Here's my question about Spinal Tap. Have we reached comedically peak mockumentary.

[Nick Reiner]

You know, I don't know. I mean, we started this thing. There was no such thing as mockumentary. I mean, we just were. If you will, if you will. We just basically said, this is the best way to tell this story. We wanted to do a satire of a rock and roll tour, and so we figured this was the best way to do it.

[Rob Reiner]

But now it seems like even sitcoms default to mockumentary, if you will. The Office, which is a good show, but they don't even explain why the documentary crew is there. It's almost as if we've been taught a grammar.

[Nick Reiner]

Yes.

[Rob Reiner]

Started with Spinal.

[Nick Reiner]

And we can accept it. Yeah, we just can accept it.

[Rob Reiner]

But I guess in that movie, you're there as. As the framing technique to even explain what this thing, a mockumentary, is. And.

[Nick Reiner]

And basically we took that off of Martin Scorsese in the Last Walls.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah.

[Nick Reiner]

Because Martin Scorsese, who did. It's a great, great documentary. The Last Waltz, about the band that played behind Dylan and. But Marty was in the movie.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah.

[Nick Reiner]

And so I figure, okay. He insinuates himself in the movie, and I'm Marty de Berg. There you go.

[Rob Reiner]

Okay. So a few.

[Nick Reiner]

And Marty Score says he used to. Used to really be upset that we had done that. Now he loves it, thinks it's good. Hello, my name is Marty DeBurghy. I'm a filmmaker. I make a lot of commercials. That little dog that chases the covered wagon underneath the sink, that was mine.

[Rob Reiner]

A Few Good Men. Object to this question, if you will. Does the extreme success of A Few Good Men. I love this movie. Does it show that to some degree, Aaron Sorkin is helped by boundaries?

[Nick Reiner]

Yeah. Yeah. And what. What do you mean? Because of. Of. Of. No, he's a brilliant writer.

[Rob Reiner]

No, but when left to his own device, like. Aaron, you're a genius. Go for it. Sometimes it doesn't work out, but when he has a collaboration, I find this with Spike Lee, too. The man's a genius. And yet when he collaborates, when he's got someone saying it can't go 2 hours, 20 minutes, it gets better. So there you are, directing the movie, taking his words.

[Nick Reiner]

Right.

[Rob Reiner]

You know, I think as a movie, that's the best. I mean, I loved the Social Network, which he wrote, but didn't direct.

[Nick Reiner]

Right, right.

[Rob Reiner]

So, you know, not to putting west win. I think that I don't. My theory is that you get a brilliant mind, but sometimes you get two brilliant minds, or you get someone kind of putting a limitation on the brilliant Mind. The mind gets more brilliant.

[Nick Reiner]

I think if you. When you have the right collaboration and there are people who can bump up against each other and get the best out of each other. I agree that you can find the. The alloy that will be better than the sum of the. Than the, you know, than the sum of the parts. I mean, it becomes a bigger thing. Yeah, that can happen. But Aaron, listen, he's a brilliant writer. He don't need me.

[Rob Reiner]

Does Harry Met Sally? Is that the pinnacle of the genre, romantic comedy, or is it the exception to the genre? I don't know. I think the genre is. It's moribund. Or is it moribund because studio.

[Nick Reiner]

Or is it less? Or is it less a bun?

[Rob Reiner]

Yes, more or less.

[Nick Reiner]

Or is it less?

[Rob Reiner]

But it's so good. I wonder if this shows that the genre called romantic comedies are on a continuum and this is on the extreme end of a continuum. Or maybe there's no continuum. Maybe you nailed it with When Harry Met Sally and it's just so hard to do that sort of thing. We shouldn't keep.

[Nick Reiner]

Well, I think. No, I think, you know, men and women and the dance that men and women do have been going on forever. And there's always a way of taking a look at it and seeing how. How it's done and a different way of doing it. And if you think of it as there are certain grammatical rules to the cute meat and they get driven apart and then how they get back to you, then I think you're in trouble. But if you approach it from a real place, which is kind of how we did. I mean, it was basically about my having been single for 10 years and trying to figure out how you get with a woman. That became the basis for it. It wasn't like, oh, let's make a romantic comedy. I mean, initially we called it Scenes From a Friendship and it was about these.

[Rob Reiner]

That seems like Renoir.

[Nick Reiner]

Well, it was like Bergman. You remember Scenes From a Marriage Bergman. I mean, it was just about these two people who came in and out of each other's lives and talked about relationships and could they get together. And that was the idea.

[Rob Reiner]

And that is timeless. And maybe it's just that when we call something a rom com, when it's not so good, we label it a ROM com when it is good, it's bringing a baby.

[Nick Reiner]

It's just a movie.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah, it's a great movie.

[Nick Reiner]

It's a movie and there's a man and a woman, and it's about what, you know, they're going through do you.

[Rob Reiner]

Have to pay for Dr. Brown's?

[Nick Reiner]

At Katz's to this day, you know, it's so funny. But at Katz's you can sit at the table.

[Elf Drew Ski]

Yeah.

[Nick Reiner]

Where we did the famous scene, the orgasm scene, and it tells you where to sit and you can sit there. And from what I understand, I mean, people come and sit down and they act the scene out and, and, and, and they're fine. Everybody's fine with that. And I saw a video, it was a flash mob, where they all went to cats. And every table, what, there was a guy and a girl, and every woman in the restaurant was faking an orgasm. And all the guys were, you know, reacting.

[Rob Reiner]

Yes. And of course, Katz has said no, our pastrami is just that good.

[Nick Reiner]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Rob Reiner]

See, being Charlie is the name of the new movie. It was written by Nick Reiner. It's directed by Carl Reiner.

[Nick Reiner]

See?

[Rob Reiner]

Sorry I said Carl.

[Nick Reiner]

No, but see, wait a minute. No, no, no. You could keep that in.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah.

[Nick Reiner]

You know why you keep that in? Why? Because that makes the point of how difficult it is to make the break and how hard it is. And that, by the way, you're not saying anything that hasn't been said to me a million times, you know. No, don't be sorry. I mean, I'm just saying that's the, that's the thing. Well, you should keep that in. Don't cut that out.

[Rob Reiner]

Our guest has been Estelle Reiner. Thank you so much.

[Nick Reiner]

Thank you, Rob. Thank you.

[Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister)]

Guys. Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Drew Ski]

Zoe. This thing weighs a ton.

[Elf Drew Ski]

Drew ski, lift with your legs, man.

[Rob Reiner]

Santa. Santa, did you get my letter?

[Drew Ski]

He's talking to you, bridges.

[Elf Drew Ski]

I'm not.

[Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister)]

Of course he did.

[Elf Drew Ski]

Right, Santa, you know my elf, Drew ski here, he handles the nice list.

[Drew Ski]

And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies.

[Nick Reiner]

Right, Mrs. Claus?

[Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister)]

I'm Mrs. Claus much younger sister. And at T mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone.

[Elf Drew Ski]

Or give it as a gift.

[Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister)]

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[Rob Reiner]

Nice.

[Drew Ski]

My side of the tree is slipping.

[Rob Reiner]

Kimber.

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[Rob Reiner]

And now the spiel about 10 years ago, white men were effectively shut out of the culture industries. Or so argues Jacob Savage in a widely discussed essay in Compact Magazine. It's an essay, but it's very detailed. Excellent stats, widely reported, also celebrated and denounced all across America, actually, mostly in Twitter and media Twitter, some academia Twitter. And it's often denounced and celebrated, or at least rebutted in a celebratory way for the same reasons. It confirms the priors of those who read it. For those who supported deliberate diversification of academia, journalism and media fiction media, the essay reads as validation. They're not arguing with the statistics that show that all of these professions were once white and then became very much non white and not male. But this is what the correction looks like. For critics, it's another data point in what they see as a broader campaign against men, particularly white men. And there are those who use it as political fodder to try to explain why men, white men, have been drifting away from the Democratic Party, which is the party that has championed those changes. I don't know how much of that is true. I am interested, and have been interested for many years in the numbers themselves. And I have been, I will admit, hesitant to talk about all this because it risks sounding whiny or navel gazy. An obsession with media is something I think maybe those of you not in media are a little sick of. I, in media am somewhat sick of it. I don't believe, for instance, that let's take an imagined guy, a white guy who starts off and he's published in Harper's, then writes for the Atlantic and eventually wants a job and gets a job in the New York Times. And that all happened when his career started in 2002 or 1998. I don't think that this couldn't happen in 2024, but it quite clearly didn't happen with anything near the frequency that it did 20 years ago. But whether it happened or whether it didn't happen, it is very hard for me to see how that guy, that Harpers to Atlantic to New York Times guy has really anything to say about the rise of Andrew T. State or voting for Donald Trump. It might have something to say with general sympathies in the electorate or the part of electorate the electorate that would be the cultural industry. But I think that there is a lot of grasping for dot dot dot and this is why Hegseth bombed the Venezuelans. Still, the statistics are the statistics and a lot of them are striking. So Savage cites figures, but I bring some of my own. One was in 2023, Bloomberg did a really eye opening piece titled Corporate America promised to hire a lot more people of color. It actually did. The year after the Black Lives Matter protest, The S&P 100 biggest, most successful companies in America added more than 300,000 jobs. 94% went to people of color. Wow. Here are some stats from the compact essay by Jacob Savage in 2021 and these are not about S&P 500. These are about media, industry and eventually gets to academia. In 2021, new hires at Conde Nast were 25% male and 49% white. A huge corrective, or at least the change corrective is a little thumb on the scale from what Conde Nast had been before the L A Times and San Diego Union. New hires were 31% white and 39% male. ProPublica, the journalism firm that does a lot of investigations, hired 66% women and 58% people of color. And mild shop NPR after declaring that diversity would be its North Star. At NPR, 78% of new hires were people of color. So 22% white people. In a country that's around 66% white people. In 2022, Savage Rights there were 728 applicants to tenure track jobs in the humanities at Brown University, 55% of whom were men. So mostly men applying to these jobs. And he takes you through the process. The long list, those who made the first cut down to 48% men. The short list, 42% men. The interview round, 34% men. Job offers 29% offered to men. The social sciences similar. Another stat again at Brown, they hired 45 tenure track professors in the humanities and social sciences. Three were white American men. Okay, that's an elite Ivy League school. Then he looks at UC Irvine. They had 64 tenure track assistant professors hired in humanities and social sciences since 2020. Of those 64, three were white men. And he's not cherry picking. He's going to big institutions with available data Brown's made available, I think because of a lawsuit. He talks about the Sundance Institute, which seeks to mentor and rise the careers of young screenwriters. Since 2018, those offered a slot. 138 were welcomed into the Sundance Institute. Eight of the 138 were men. Every year the Atlantic comes out with diversity statistics. So in 2024, I remember opening this up, saying, yep, this is on trend. New hires for 2024, all staff, 26% men, 71% women. Same thing. That was very consistent with the editorial side. Racially, 31% in the editorial side of the new hires were white. Again, country, 66% white. Not going to say you're wrong to make all the arguments about this. Change was needed. This is a corrective. It's because there was a bottleneck of women and people of color who never got a chance before. I'm just saying Compact magazine is saying that these are the statistics. It's helpful to know the statistics. I also every year look at who wins a MacArthur genius grant and they put out a press release. And I notice year after year after year, many more people of color than white people, many more women than men. So between 2019 and 2025, and again, this doesn't reflect what the overall point of the compact piece was, which is the opportunity for young or youngish white men to establish themselves in elite fields. This is more a reward for people who've made it. But it is a reflection of the MacArthur staff, the people who give the awards of who we should be conferring the award to. And again, maybe a corrective. Early days of the MacArthur Genius Grant, most of the geniuses were said to be men. But between 2019 and 2025, they gave out 161 MacArthur Genius Awards. Of the 161, 18 went to White men. I counted all of them and this does not include, and I guess you could argue a couple of Iranian or Persian professors, people of Persian descent, Mohammed Sayed, say, Ahmed Dot and Kivan Stassen. They're light skinned. But we are not going to count for these purposes the recipients as white men. Good. Maybe you're hearing this and saying good. That's fine to say good. These are, I'm just again, relaying the statistics. The panel that votes for the Pulitzer Prizes and these are the most established people in the field. And it used to be obviously dominated by white men. They have a list and a picture of all the people who voted for the pulitzers since the 1910s. You could go on their site and see the board and see the list. And in 1918 it was Nicholas Solomon, John, Victor, Charles, Edward, Ralph, Ralph Pulitzer, Melville, Charles and Samuel. I could tell you now of the board that grants the Pulitzer, two of the 19 are white men. To back to younger journalists. There is an award called the Livingston Award and I looked up all the winners. It's for young journalists. I looked up all the winners since 2019. 25 recipients, 20 women and five men. So unlike the Pulitzer board and the MacArthur's which are 90% nonwhite men, in the case of the Pulitzer board, more than 90% in the case of MacArthur recipients, there's 20% men. And I'm not saying more men deserved it. And I'm not saying that every woman on this list wasn't a fantastic journalist and isn't a fantastic journalist. It just exemplifies the point that Compact magazine is trying to make, which is that they, the culture industry, the elite, the industries that mine are cultural elites, promised a change and they delivered a change. Now what has that change wrought? Been thinking a lot about this. Ross Douthit writes that while Savage's argument focuses on the creative class, he points out that white men shot out of the culture industries didn't surge into other high status fields because the general pattern held everywhere from medical schools to corporate middle management. White male enrollment and employment fell sharply under woke conditions. Douth its words. If you weren't an absolute peak talent, it was a bad time to be a young, ambitious, well educated white guy. Certain schools and jobs and industries, especially tech, especially crypto, became hubs for men displaced by other sectors and thus natural hotbeds of reaction. And everyone ends up a little more radicalized, a little more open to extreme appeals. That last sentence, it doesn't seem crazy to assert that, but I think it might not be true. White men might be more disappointed, white men might be more depressed. Also there's another phenomenon of Latino and black men benefiting, but their vote also going more to Trump in the 2024 elections. If you want to use open to extreme appeals as a stand in for voted for Trump in 2024, I think we could all agree the clearly mapping on of this phenomenon in the cultural industries to exactly what's going on in America turning populist and angry and supposedly anti man is at the best inexact. And then at the end is that it did happen, the fact that it very much happened in a very big way, and that has to have and come with it some consequences. So the author writes, near the end, I spent a decade insisting the world treat me fairly when the world was loudly telling me it had no intention of doing so again. A certain reader would say, great, now you know how it feels. Or a certain reader would say, oh, now the world finally is treating you fairly, you mediocre white man. Which is the cliche or was the cliche of the moment. But I was thinking about this idea of the world treating white men fairly. I can't say that he's right or wrong about his definition of what being treated fairly was. I'm not going to weigh in on that definition, but it is more or less of a reasonable definition of what an American who is raised to value the power of merit of what what an American has been told was fair. We have been inculcated in the idea that fairness depends on a number of things, but a lot of it is how much actual value you bring to an enterprise and the content of your mind and your contribution as opposed to your immutable characteristics. And I know that when the immutable characteristics play a very key role in defining you out of your dream profession, it does not feel good. And I further know when that happens, it does tend to show up in discernible and profound ways that we are all to some extent living through now. And that's it for today's show. Cory Warra produces the Jest, Michelle Peska is the coo, Leah Yan is our production coordinator, Jeff Craig runs our socials and Kathleen Sykes helps me with the gist list. Doom Peru G Peru. DO Peru and thanks for listening.

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