The Gist - “Sarah Goodyear and Doug Gordon on Life After Cars”

Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca (A)
Guests: Sarah Goodyear (C) & Doug Gordon (B), co-hosts of The War on Cars podcast and authors of Life After Cars

Episode Overview

This episode of The Gist centers on the enduring dominance of car culture in America and explores the vision of a society “after cars” with guests Sarah Goodyear and Doug Gordon. As co-hosts of the popular War on Cars podcast and recent authors, they advocate for reimagining transportation, urban design, and community priorities away from the automobile. The conversation tackles myths and realities about reducing car dependency, cultural and policy challenges, and pathways for reform, all blending rigorous data, debate, and wit.

Main Discussion & Insights

1. Comparative Statistics: U.S. vs. Europe

Timestamps: 09:50 – 13:09

• Fatality and Pollution Rates
  • Doug Gordon: “The Netherlands has a traffic fatality rate that is 60% lower than the United States... after accounting for miles driven.” (10:09)
  • Removing cars from city centers (e.g., Ghent) caused nitrous oxide levels to drop by 40% within weeks.
• Host’s Counterpoint: Pesca acknowledges the statistics but probes deeper: Is American car carnage due to culture (aggression, individualism) or infrastructure?
• Cultural Feedback Loop
  • Goodyear: “The American doctrine of rugged individualism maps onto the car pretty exactly right... the mindset one develops in a car is, ‘I should be the lord of the road.’ ... I would argue...the automobile is responsible for our callousness and our disregard for the lives of others.” (11:58–13:09)

2. Causality: Cars vs. Culture

Timestamps: 13:09 – 16:04

• Pesca’s Challenge: Suggests America’s aggressive driving culture may precede its vehicle choices, especially as SUVs have doubled in size over 20 years.
• Research Cited (Donald Appleyard):
  • Goodyear: “People on light traffic streets had three times as many friends and acquaintances as those on heavy traffic streets.” (13:47)
• Urban Examples: New York, Jersey City, and Hoboken are safer for pedestrians, suggesting built environment affects outcomes more than culture alone.
• Gordon: "In 1971, we had a traffic fatality rate that was 20% lower than the Netherlands. And we just diverged for a lot of different reasons." (15:14)

3. Trains: American Experience vs. European Ideal

Timestamps: 17:45 – 24:07

• Trains in America: The Struggle
  • Good intentions, bad execution: e.g., Florida's Brightline (“the death train” due to high fatalities from at-grade crossings).
• Systemic Problems: Funding priorities, political choices, and entrenched lobbies (fossil fuels, aviation) are major roadblocks.
  • Goodyear: “The fossil fuel industry has been a big factor in trying to promote fossil fuel using infrastructure.” (20:11)
  • Gordon: “Southwest Airlines kind of has a lockdown on transportation between [San Antonio, Houston, Austin].” (20:40)
• Pesca's Point: Major U.S. infrastructure projects like California’s high-speed rail are stymied by costs unrelated to fossil fuel lobbying (procurement, labor).
  • Gordon: “In terms of paying for these things, those are obviously very important issues, and you can't discount them... but... I push back at the cultural explanation for why we don’t have these things.” (23:13)

4. Moto-normativity & The Is-Ought Fallacy

Timestamps: 24:07 – 25:31

• Philosophical Challenge:
  • Goodyear (citing Dr. Ian Walker): “Moto-normativity... the mindset that cars are normal and that everything they do is acceptable.” (24:07)
  • The “is-ought” fallacy: Just because cars dominate now doesn't mean they should forever; pushing back against complacency is vital for progress.

5. Reform or Abolition? The EV Question

Timestamps: 25:40 – 28:45

• Pesca: “Are you essentially abolitionists or reformers?”
• Gordon:
  • “We’re more reformers... focus on improving alternatives... everywhere else, yeah, we should be looking at cities that have good bones and could be changed just a little bit.”
  • “We need to electrify everything as quickly as possible... but where people have no alternatives, those cars should be electric.” (25:57)
• Goodyear: Emphasizes non-car EVs: “There are lots of electric vehicles that are not cars—E-bikes, golf-cart type vehicles, ATVs…” (27:27)
• Cultural Quirk: Even golf carts are right-coded in America, proof solutions can span political divides.

6. What To Do With Highways “After Cars”?

Timestamps: 28:45 – 33:47

• Host’s Question: What will we do with the enormous highway infrastructure in a post-car society?
• Goodyear: Pushback on unmitigated prosperity claims: “Every highway in America has gone through a neighborhood and destroyed a neighborhood... many cities... have been decimated.” (29:39–30:32)
• Gordon: Pros and cons of interstate highways, questioning long-term benefit and climate/health costs.
• Examples of Success: Removing highways (e.g., San Francisco’s Embarcadero, Seattle’s waterfront, NYC’s West Side Highway) revitalized neighborhoods, increased prosperity, and lowered hidden costs (pollution, health).
  • Goodyear: “Air pollution from cars causes cardiovascular disease, which is the leading cause of death.” (32:18)

7. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Gordon: “People love, love, love trains. Everywhere we put trains, people tend to want to ride them.” (22:04)
• Pesca (humorous): “We’re just going to go along for the ride... in a Chevy Suburban.” (24:07)
• Goodyear: “If we want a better society, a better environment... we should build something better, and we should have the conviction that that can be done.” (24:36)
• Gordon: “You can’t say it was an economic benefit if you spend $1.1 billion to widen a few miles of highway, and by the time you finish, traffic is just as bad, if not worse.” (33:47)

Key Timestamps & Segments

• Intro & Host Framing: 00:00 – 09:47
• U.S. vs. Europe Fatalities & Culture Debate: 09:50 – 16:14
• "Petro-masculinity," Car Aggression, and Train Safety: 16:14 – 24:07
• Moto-normativity & Social Change: 24:07 – 25:31
• EVs: Reform vs. Abolition: 25:40 – 28:45
• Highways “After Cars” & Urban Renewal: 28:45 – 34:22

Tone & Style

The episode is lively, data-driven, and frequently witty. Pesca plays the measured skeptic—serious in his questions but good-natured and often self-deprecating. Goodyear and Gordon respond with passion, rigorous data, and clear policy arguments, but keep things hopeful, rational, and open to reform over radical abolition. The conversation is energetic, constructive, and peppered with humor and memorable banter.

Conclusion

This conversation expertly dissects the promise and pitfalls of reimagining American transportation—using evidence, lived experience, and philosophical rigor to question deeply held assumptions about cars. While the hosts and guests disagree on the causality of car culture, all align on the need for reform and creative adaptation through policy, infrastructure, and social change. The real war isn’t on cars, but on the idea that our only choice is to endure their tyranny.